National Assembly for Wales

Bore da. I'm Andy Warnock, I'm the regional organiser for the Musicians' Union in Wales and south-west England. 

Bore da. Carwyn Donovan, negotiations officer for the BECTU sector of Prospect. 

Hello, I'm in the west of Ireland. My name is Philip King and I'm one of the founders and producers and curators of the Other Voices project.

Thank you ever so much.

You're all very welcome. I'll go straight to questions, if that's all right with you. Now, you've all given evidence to our inquiries, either that's the Wales-Ireland inquiry that we did a couple of years ago, or indeed 'Culture shock', when we were looking at the implications of Brexit on particularly the cultural sector. Could you please give us an update on any of your work since those periods and how it relates to the Wales-Ireland relations work that we are looking at, particularly any of the issues that affected the sectors that you work in? Anyone who wants to go first, if you want to indicate by showing your hand. Eluned.

If I go first, then I'll hand over to Dafydd.

Philip, did you want to come in on this?

Yes. Just to say that my translation dropped out towards the end, unfortunately—

I'm sorry about that.

—but I think I get the gist of what everybody is saying.

Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom a rá go bhfuil sé go haoibhinn a bheith libh inniu. Tá mé anseo in Iarthar Duibhneach sa Ghaeltacht, agus is mór an pribhléid dom a bheith mar finné ag an gcomhdáil nó ag an gcoiste seo.

I'm delighted to speak to you this morning. I suppose the next iteration of the shared joint statement—and correct me if I'm wrong—is probably the guiding framework document of how best we interact and engage with one another on the Welsh and the Irish side. As I said at the outset, it was a real delight to be in Aberteifi again this year. I've been looking at the series of questions, and I'd like, just really, I suppose, to boil the whole thing down to three issues. If we believe that the engagement culturally, linguistically, politically, musically is a way in which we can begin to understand each other, and also to begin to feel better about each other—. My sense is that—I've always said this—we're in the feelings business and feeling better about one another.

It comes down to my second point: how do we justify the investment or the resourcing of events like Other Voices? As it happens, civil servants and the people who, I suppose, make taxpayers' money available—how do we justify that investment? I remember being in a meeting in Dublin where a senior civil servant said, 'This culture stuff is very nebulous and it's very hard to get a handle on it. It's very hard to have a metric that works, because we're dealing with feelings.' And I said, 'Well, if we're feeling better about each other, what is the metric for that?' And my addendum was, 'There is no metric for the priceless', because if we feel better about each other, then we are going to be able to better understand each other, better work together, and realise the aspirations of the shared joint statement in those particular cultural spaces. We envy you very much in Wales because your language is so strong, and, in parallel with that, we realise how vulnerable our language is. 

Now, there have been a number of, I suppose, change agents happening in Ireland over the last five to six years in particular. Many of you may know or may not know that there was a writer who tragically died very young called Manchán Magan, and he wrote a book called Thirty-Two Words for Field, and it touched an emotional nerve in young Irish people—they were very affected by this man, who made a very significant contribution in terms of us beginning to feel confidence in our identity. I'm just rambling a little bit here. We also envy, in Wales, that you have put at the centre of policy the business of what I call in Irish mol an óige. In other words, create an atmosphere that is conducive to young people realising their potential, and I think what you have done in Wales there is very, very, very interesting.

In our daily work—. John Boorman wrote a great book called Money into Light, and he said the engine won't go without oil. You can't make this thing happen unless you find the resources or the funding or the budget to go about realising it. And it is so true. So, what we, in our work, spend an awful lot of time doing is looking for resources, and I would say this in the Irish sense—and I can't comment on the Welsh sense, even though I have some sense of it—that process, and being frustrated and choked by process, has brought us to a place where many people really turn around and say, 'I can't do this anymore. It's just too difficult.' We understand that there has to be checks and balances and there has to be formulas put in place that protect taxpayers' money when it goes to projects like this, or goes to fund artists the way that it does. But the process piece, like big infrastructure projects in Ireland—we just can't do them. It's just choked, absolutely, by a whole range of various different processes. And what I would, I suppose, plead for, is not any laxness or anything, but a through line of, you know, process, steps that enable us to get from application to decision making in a much more smooth, less complex way, and I don't know whether that is possible.

But, certainly, the way in which—and you'll know this—the Other Voices piece is Aberteifi is funded is complex and it takes months of work not just to engage with all of the artists and all of the people who come and play and speak and talk, but to organise the funding. So, developing very strong, personal and deeply understanding relationships with the senior civil servant group, both here and in Wales, would be a huge, huge help.

Thank you ever so much. Diolch, Philip. And I know that Carwyn wanted to come in, I think. On some of the things that you were saying, I saw Carwyn and Andy wanting to come in. So, I'll bring Carwyn in first and then Andy. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you so much. Carwyn.

I'm not getting the translation, Carwyn, I'm sorry.

Sorry. I was just saying that I wanted to say 'thank you' for the invitation to speak today. It's always an important opportunity for BECTU to speak with the Senedd, so thank you very much for that.

Speaking on behalf of the members that I represent, I'm very pleased to report some strong successes in the relationship between Wales and Ireland, which our members have been working on, mainly driven, of course, by the strong relationship that has been established between S4C and TG4. As Philip and colleagues were suggesting there, we have a mutual interest between our nations and those broadcasters in developing our Celtic languages, as it were. So, it's particularly pleasing to see the successes that S4C has had in co-production with TG4, and also I'll refer later to some tri-nation productions that it's had.

But I must reflect, on behalf of our members, many of whom relied heavily on the ability to travel freely across Europe and Ireland as part of the European Union, on short-term projects, on attending events and on collaborating with international clients, they continue to be choked and stymied by the United Kingdom's exit from the EU, which has created a range of logistical, financial and bureaucratic challenges to working across our nations. BECTU has undertaken some work this year to reflect how our members are feeling about that, and a survey we published earlier this year reflected that there is a strong consensus that working in the EU, and Ireland as part of that, has become substantially more difficult since Brexit. And many have had their work in that field dry up altogether. Diolch.

Thank you. Bore da. It's really nice to talk to you all. I'll just summarise it quickly with three things. One is that things haven't really changed with EU touring, including to Ireland, as a whole, since we spoke to you about the 'Culture shock' report. The second thing is that one change that was striking to me when I looked back at the evidence we submitted to that is the fact that I said we received regular queries from members about EU touring and Brexit and those sorts of issues, and I just wouldn't say that's the case any more; people really do not get in touch with us about this. And I can't say exactly why that's the case, but I think it's likely that it's either that they've kind of figured it out to a degree and kind of worked out how to do it, at least mostly, or they're paying people to figure that out for them, or people just aren't doing it at all. And my worry, especially, would be for younger people who are just starting out. If you were 18—I think it was 2020 that we actually left the EU—now you're 23, and that's the age that you might be just starting out if you're in a band or something like that, and you've never been able to go to the EU easily. And the third thing I would say is that despite the fact that things haven't changed, our work is ongoing to try and support positive moves on this. Eluned mentioned the cultural exchange coalition. So, that's the latest example. But the latest I've heard from my colleagues is that they think that there's probably got to be some movement from the UK Government on some of the things the EU would like before we can really move forward. So, those are my three things. Thanks. Diolch.

We all, very much, hope that that last point will be true.

Can I just, particularly to you, Eluned—? The discussions you had with Nick Thomas-Symonds, obviously, go to the to the nub, I think, across the board of what we want to see change, and it reflects also the discussions that we had when we went to Brussels not so long ago. What was the outcome? Will you give a bit more detail about those discussions? Has there been any development on those discussions? What is the outcome of them, because, when we were in Brussels, it seemed that some of these issues, there was an awareness of them, but they were quite low down on the political agenda?

Yes, and 'they still are struggling to make the headlines' is probably the headline. But the recent UK-EU Parliamentary Partnership Assembly, which I think Delyth attended, did have the creative and cultural aspects on the agenda. But it's fairly superficial, from our point of view, in terms of it being there, but it's not being dealt with, and there have not been that many developments in terms of changing how artists are able to move, and issues on visas and taxation remain.

I would say that, from our point of view, we've been quite disappointed that Creative Europe seems to have been deprioritised, from an UK perspective. I don't think it has been from a Wales perspective, judging by the conversations in this establishment, and we welcome that. And I do think that the AgoraEU programme does offer an opportunity to reset that cultural relationship in a different way. It's not the same programme as what Creative Europe has been. There are opportunities to be associate members of certain parts of it, potentially, or to have those conversations, which is why it's really important that the EU-UK culture and media forum took place. It's good that the coalition is being set up as well, but I would say there's a need to be really reflective on the collaborative and the reciprocity element in this. There are 200 organisations from across Europe who signed up to the recommendations of the EU-UK media and culture forum, and one of those recommendations is Creative Europe. Maybe we can come to the gap in funding that's been left in other questions, but it certainly remains a key issue. It's there on the agenda, but it's not really been delved into in any great detail. And without having some sort of formalisation of a UK-EU culture summit, as a formal project rather than a grass-roots event, I don't think that that will happen either. So, that's my view on it.

You've embraced, really, already some of the questions I wanted to ask about what the main challenges were and the impact of Brexit. It sounds as though there's, obviously, a lot of talk taking place, but not actually very much happening, in terms of practical change, although there are discussions under way now. Perhaps I could ask you, Eluned, about that, and then I'd like to actually ask Andy Warnock and Carwyn Donovan for their perspective on practical change.

It's really difficult, because we're dealing with 27 member states, so it's not just one unit that we're dealing with, even though there is an acceptance that there's a negotiation with the European Union, and our understanding, from the conversations, is that it's everything being discussed as one, so you can't pull them apart.

There's prioritisation that's been given to Erasmus as well, and that is to be welcomed, but then there's a potential loss for parts of Welsh communities through Taith coming to an end.

In terms of the practical support for artists, I can't stress enough the importance of On The Move as an European network, and that we've got Arts Infopoint UK as one of the info points that supports that. Arts Infopoint UK supports international artists coming into the UK, and the other info points across the European Union are there to support artists going to those countries. So, maybe, some of the musicians do go, I would like to think, to those places to have information. But there has not been any substantial change to the barriers.

Can I say, from the Musicians' Union and from Bectu's perspectives, you've been doing a lot of lobbying and, of course, a lot of these issues don't just affect Wales, they actually affect across the UK, and further afield as well? You've obviously been putting pressure, you've obviously been lobbying on these particular issues. Have you noticed any change taking place? Do you see any glimmers of practical change, and, if not, how do you see the future over the next 12, 18 months?

In terms of practical change, I think the first thing to say, before you get to lobbying—the last time we talked about this, we talked a lot about guidance—is that my feeling now is that I think the guidance is as good as it’s going to get. There’s a lot of guidance out there now, I think, and, as I say, people aren’t really asking. The change now is that people who are still going to Europe have kind of got used to things—and I’ve spoken to a few people about this, to do with Ireland specifically, that maybe I can talk about later if it’s helpful—but the barriers are still there, and those can’t change unless there is a very big overall change. You’re still paying for the carnet. You’ve got to do your goods movement references. You’ve got to figure out your visas, all that sort of stuff. Those practical issues, they are not going to change, unless there’s a big overall change.

And the problem that you have—still have, I think, and which is also very hard to change unless there’s a big overall shift—is that you can still have practical, small things that make a big difference. So, someone I heard, from yesterday, was saying, 'We still regularly have to update this big spreadsheet of all of our kit, so then we might need to update our carnet every time we go'. There are regular hours of work that have to go in to make sure that your documents and all your paperwork are correct. It’s not just one and done; you’ve got to keep regularly doing that, and that’s a lot of work. So, that’s not going to change. You might still come up against a specific person at the border who asks you a question you didn’t expect or queries your paperwork in a different way.

In terms of lobbying, like I said, my understanding is that there’s no big movement, and there's not likely to be anything really soon, I think, although I’m not directly involved in it. There are a lot of discussions going on. This cultural exchange coalition is a recent thing that’s been set up. That’s really positive. But what we seem to be hearing, I think, if I’ve understood my colleagues correctly, is that, on the EU side, there’s a feeling that there will need to be some movement on certain things. I’m pretty sure that EU student fees is something that’s been mentioned. There are a few other really specific examples—so, some movement on that from the UK side to try unlock movement on the touring specifically, because, yes, that change is a really big one is my sense, and I don’t think it’s going to happen overnight, still.

Carwyn. 

Thank you. Yes, very much like Andy, we’ve noticed a drop-off in queries regarding what people will need—for example, the cabotage and the visas and the paperwork. I think that has come about because people have broadly got used to what is going on, but there is still a lack of information on a governmental level. The information that people are existing on and working off is being got from within the industry, from colleagues, from various sources. But there is no single point of information on a governmental level that can advise you on what you need. And that’s part of the problem, because, as Andy was saying, you have all of the individual member states who are within their rights to set what they need. So, that certainly remains a significant issue for us.

On the lobbying, yes, absolutely, I think what we need is some sort of cultural accord that allows creative workers to continue the great links that we’ve built up over the years, that are now severely strained by these restrictions and by the bureaucracy. Thank you.

Thank you. I think that completes the questions I wanted to ask. 

Yes, just an overview. I heard people speaking about the action plan, and I made a note this morning, which said that the ambitions in the new action plan are good. They envision more activity and cultural exchange, more cultural traffic, more opportunities for artists, and we welcome any and all support and every opportunity for artists.

We believe that there is a need to maintain a flagship annual event, and Other Voices Aberteifi is a good example of something that is working. It embodies so much of what our nations stand for and what we can do together. It is the fruit of years of dialogue and exploration that began with conversations back in 2015. It's a young event; it's starting to find its feet, and it has much to offer Wales and Ireland.

Other Voices has created awareness, appreciation and understanding among Irish artists and audiences about Wales. This is still early days, but we sense that there is so much more that we can do together. I think it was Seamus Heaney in one of his marvelous poems who used the phrase,

'Strange how things in the offing, once they're sensed, / Convert to things foreknown'.

And we sense that there is something in the offing here. We definitely sense it; we know it in a practical sense. I'll give you some stats in a minute, which we can make available to you. But something's in the offing, and we know that if we continue to work together in that collegiate way, and, to use that phrase again, collapse distance between Ireland and Wales, and engage in the space where we begin to feel and know a little bit more about each other, then that is, in my view, a very priceless place to be.

Just going back to my stats for a minute, 131 performances at 10 venues around Cardigan included 46 artists on the music trail, 21 from Wales, 23 from Ireland. The female participation was 22 female; female-led bands, 48 per cent. And the total number of music trail musicians was 164.

In St Mary's church, we hosted and streamed eight artists out to the world. The Clebran discussion panel at Mwldan included a special appearance from your First Minister, Eluned Morgan. The Clebran discussions were very, very strong. There were 1,192 attendees recorded at the Clebran piece; 2,087 wristbands were issued. There were 17,000 individual admissions recorded across all 131 events in the festival. The note goes on in great detail.

Yes, I'll get Tamsin to send you a detailed note about all of that. Again, to go back to my point, we're ready to work very, very hard to maintain this event. I made another note for myself, just to say that rising costs, persistent cost inflation and the cost-of-living crisis is a big issue for us. The funding for this has not increased over the last five years. Uncertainty over timeline and detail of funding decisions are absolutely so very, very difficult. We can't move, we don't know what to do; we don't know whether it will or it won't happen. We need clear multi-annual commitment from broadcasters, and we're working very hard to get that in place. As I just said, the funding barely covers the cost of delivering our event. There is, in effect, a hidden subsidy provided by the partner organisations and their staff to make sure that this happens.

I'm not wanting to do an béal bocht on it, which is a phrase in Irish meaning to do 'the poor mouth' on it, and say, 'Ah, look, whatever'. But if you want to build and protect the investment already made in this piece, it was never construed as being a commercial event. We have been doing Other Voices in Dingle for 24 years now—it'll be 25 years next year. We just finished it last weekend. It is made up of a mixture of funding, but we are not, and do not want to be, promoters in the commercial space—that is not what this thing is about. When we set out Other Voices in the beginning, somebody said, 'What is it about this Other Voices thing?' And what we said was, 'We celebrate what's about to happen.'

Whether it's Celeste in the church in St Mary's in Aberteifi, or whether it's Cerys Hafana, or whether in that magical—and I heard mention of it earlier on—relationship that came together during the COVID piece of Aoife Ní Bhriain and Catrin Finch—. We are now about to embark on a feature-length documentary film, which we're hoping will be funded by S4C and by TG4—again, establishing a link. But the manifestation of our relationship is shown through the musical relationship and friendship of Catrin and Aoife Ní Bhriain. They're virtuosic; they fell for each other musically. They are operating at the highest end of musical operation, if you like, and are hugely, hugely impressive. The event in Aberteifi created a space for that relationship to happen, and we are so thrilled to see it flourish.

Thank you ever so much. Thank you again, Philip. Dafydd. 

How are you, Philip? Just to say how delighted we are that one of our multi-year funded organisations, Mwldan, is key to the success of Other Voices in Aberteifi. And although, as you point out, it's not set out as a commercial venture, I just draw everybody's attention to the report we published last year. The economic impact of our investment, of public investment in the arts, shows clearly that for every £1 spent of public money in the arts, there's a £2.51 return. And we mustn't forget that, actually, in terms of all the activity that's funded by public sources, it creates that economic impact. So, I just wanted to point that out—that there are metrics out there that we need to be using clearly as advocacy tools moving forward.

Diolch, Dafydd. Andy and Carwyn, I just wanted to ask specifically, just on the shared statement, about any involvement that you'd had, and if you have any views in terms of how it captures the work of your members between Wales and Ireland.

I wouldn't say that we, or specific members that I know of, have had any particular involvement in the shared statement. I was thinking about this, and I think it's probably because—and this isn't criticism—the nature of that is that it's a Government thing, it's a publicly funded set of projects, and that's fantastic.

Actually, a lot, probably the majority, of work the members do across the union is what you would kind of call, in scare quotes, 'commercial', and so it just doesn't quite fit with it. And so I think that's why, and I was thinking about this, a lot of what the members would be doing in Ireland is not those publicly funded projects, it's just going there to do the gigs that are just part of making their income. 

I think that almost probably sits—. It's certainly related and everything and part of the relationship, but it's not quite so specific. And that's why, yes, there are still effects on that from the EU touring that we were talking about earlier. So, not kind of direct specific things on the shared statement, but they're a clearly related things, if that makes sense.

Thank you, that's helpful. Carwyn. 

I had absolutely no involvement with it from BECTU's point of view. That's particularly concerning when we consider the key role that workers in this industry can play in building those relations in terms of what we can broadcast to Ireland and what they can broadcast to us, and, as Andy was mentioning, and I've mentioned here, in terms of those live performances.

I think the sentiment of the statement surely covers our work, but what I'm not aware of is how the statement actually helps to address the problems that our members and the broadcasters and the companies then have, which have been caused by Brexit. The statement came out of Brexit; it recognised that we need to establish these priority relationships. But it doesn't seem to me to explain and to provide guidance and funding and support to build and to address those challenges that lie in between us at the moment. And like Phil was saying, we're in a really difficult situation. It's an operational risk, the real crisis that we have in our industry at the moment in terms of the downturn in work, which will have been affected by the reduction in funding that we received from Creative Europe.

We're seeing fewer bigger productions, and that's caused some stark changes to the way commissioning and production work. We did some surveying, as I was saying earlier, earlier this year, and we noted that 43 per cent of our members, or our respondents to that survey, were out of work in March of this year. Two thirds of them were struggling financially, with 59 per cent of them reporting that they had experienced anxiety or depression caused by these challenges. So, I would seek to draw Members' attention to the significant crisis that we have in our industry, and the risks that that poses to our objective, as it were, then.

It's excellent to see that work that's been going on and the innovative solutions that S4C have applied in terms of animation and things like that. It's got that tri-nation co-production Nollaig, and the animation lends itself very well to being able to change the language in which it's broadcast. So, I think the will is there. We want to help, and we want to play our part in telling Wales's story, but the challenges remain, and I cannot see that the statement adequately addresses the challenges that lie in between us.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you both.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Bore da, pawb. We've covered extensively thoughts and views around the EU funding and Brexit, but I just want to focus, more so, for the sake of this panel now, on what support from the Governments do you think is the most critical to delivering the ambitions of the shared statement. What are the areas that you would specifically look to target?

Well, if I could respond to that, Gareth, please, I think knowledge is very, very important and timelines are very, very important. The quantum in terms of the investment and in terms of the resources made available is clearly very important, but having a timeline that works and if we can work together with the officials in both the civil service here—that's our Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and our department of culture—and the related departments in Wales to get a clear understanding for us early in the year, that we know what's what so that we can put together plans that are effective, that realise the event, that realise the potential of the event and also then give us the security of being able to concentrate on strategically designing what it is that we do in the context of the shared joint statement.

Now, several contributors and speakers have spoken about Brexit, and, just in terms of BECTU and in terms of musicians travelling and bringing their equipment and the carnet situation, I have to say that going back into that morass and difficulty of paperwork and process is really, really heartbreaking, especially for small bands who don't have the resources and, sometimes, the deep knowledge of how to go about doing those particular things, doing the carnets and taking their equipment so that they can go into Europe, so that they can cross the Irish sea with all of their equipment and play and sing for us in Ireland.

So, three things: an agreed schedule through the year that hits a series of milestones, that says, 'Right, okay. Here's where we're going. Here's what is available resource-wise to make this happen. And here are the strategic outcomes that we want to try and achieve when this event happens', that we speak and have access to the senior decision-making officials in the funding bodies across both administrations. That would be hugely, hugely helpful, and would give us the confidence and would galvanize our emotive force, if you like, to want to keep on keeping on with this. It's there. The investment has created something that has very significant potential to develop. This place in Aberteifi, with its beauty, its location, its castle, its people, its community, its language, has been welcoming to all of us from Ireland and we have created a place that is a sine qua non for every young musician in Ireland and in Wales to want to come and play this thing, to want to come and raise their voices to sing at this thing.

So, the engagement with the tourism piece that heretofore has not happened, the development and the deepening and strengthening of the Clebran strand and then, from the music piece, developing this trail and developing, I suppose, the shooting, the capturing and the content capture that happens in beautiful St Mary's, streaming that to the world and making Cardigan audible and visible on a world stage as it happens, deepening the relationship with the BBC, who will take the programme on to BBC Wales and on to BBC Four later in the year, deepening our relationship with S4C, who are not doing this project right now. I have no understanding as to why that is, but they were there on day 1, but not anymore, and it's a no-brainer, really, from a broadcast perspective, in terms of the Welsh language, that here is a project that is tailor made, really, to respond to the mission statement of what S4C is. So, knowledge is very, very important—knowing things in time and not saying, in the middle of July, 'Is this going to happen or is it not?', because that's no good for anybody.

Diolch. Yes, two specific things I wanted to mention in relation to that question. One is something I've been talking to colleagues a lot about recently, which is support for touring. Among musicians, there's a real cost-of-touring crisis, we call it, where touring is so expensive these days. It's a real issue domestically and also internationally.

I was looking at—. You'll have to forgive me, because I'm not an expert on the shared statement and that work, but I think there's one that's called Agile Cymru that's related to this, about the support for this area. That says specifically that it's not going to support individual artists or specific performances, if I've understood it correctly. So, I think looking at how you could support touring specifically in relation to Wales and Ireland for more 'commercial'—in scare quotes—acts would be a good one. And there's a really good example of that, actually, where, for the Euros—I was just looking at Adwaith, Aleighcia Scott and some artists like that—there were opportunities specifically related to the Euros this summer for performances in Switzerland. And I've heard that that worked really well. I think there was some really good work there. And if this is already happening and I don't know about it, then forgive me, but I think translating that into this specific Wales-Ireland area would be a really, really positive thing to do.

Diolch, Andy. Eluned.

Diolch. 

Diolch, Gareth. Before we move on, Philip, I understand that you have to leave us at 10:30. 

That's correct, yes. 

Well, can I thank you ever so much? I just wanted to check if there was anything finally you wanted to tell us before you left.

The only thing I would like to say is that our enthusiasm and commitment to the Other Voices project, to continue to develop it and deepen and strengthen our relationship with Wales, is undimmed. We love it. It's hugely uplifting. It's inspirational to see all of those young people come and raise their voices and to sing and play. And in a world as well that is a little bit more augmented, a little bit more virtual and a little bit more digital, it's brilliant to be in a place, in a beautiful town, where people are speaking to each other in human contact that is visceral and tactile and warm and emotional. And again, going back to what I said at the very outset, it is the key to understanding how we strengthen and deepen our relationship and how we feel about one another.

We are hugely grateful to all of the agencies, to our partners in Wales, to Triongl and to Mwldan, to the Welsh Government for enabling this to happen. As I said, it's a portrait of a brilliant possibility. We know where we're going. We know how it can develop. And we just need the consistent, unambiguous support of the agencies that have got us to this point to continue to help us to realise the ambitions and, I suppose, what the shared joint statement aspires to. And I think, in the feeling end of things, we speak to the generation that will own the future, and post Brexit, and post that breakdown of relationships east-west, I think that these young people who are emotional and powerful and passionate and inspirational are the future. It's just brilliant that we have an opportunity to cherish them and to celebrate them.

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Philip. Thank you ever so much. Thank you, as ever, for your time, and for quoting Seamus Heaney. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you. One of my very favourites. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diolch, Philip.

Thank you everybody. Bye. 

Did you want to come in? I hadn't seen your hand. I'm so sorry.

I'm with you on the Heaney quote, that was a highlight.

I know. Lush.

I just want to ask a final question, really, just to help us look forward. Obviously, the committee's work is coming to an end, and it's been quite clear from the evidence this morning that the inquiry has been valuable. There's been quite a lot that you've said that's going to help us to make some recommendations to our successor committee, but it'd be quite helpful if you could help us think about what priorities there should be for the Wales-Ireland relationship, and any final recommendations that you think that we should consider for the future.

Whilst noting good engagement on several inquiries, which we obviously welcome, I would recommend that future committees better engage the creative unions on this matter of Wales-Ireland relations. I've hopefully convinced Members today of the key role that our members and Andy's members can play in that objective, as it were. I think the unique thing about our industry is the make-up of the workers as freelancers. The creative unions are the only fixed point to engage the workforce on this matter. Unlike a workplace that does the paperwork for you, if you've got to go and work in this country or that country, our members are left to deal with all of that themselves, amongst all of the challenges that continue to blight the industry. So, we would welcome better engagement on it, and we would like to play our role in helping to tell our story to Ireland, and Ireland's story to us. Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch, Carwyn. Andy.

Yes, a few things, I think. One is almost slightly beyond this committee, in a sense, but make sure that we see culture as an economic issue as well. I was just looking at UK Music's latest report about how important music, but also culture more broadly, is to the economy. If Governments want to focus on growth, then this is the sort of thing that you should be looking at. It's getting the artists out of Wales and the UK, taking them to other places and supporting them. Then, there are all sorts of things like the soft power and relationships and things that come from that.

When Government is looking at things like these shared statements and that sort of diplomacy, make sure that, as I said, what's often considered as 'commercial' music and art is considered, as well as the more traditional and publicly funded work. They're both really important, but I think one maybe is slightly more closely connected to the diplomacy and Government side of things.

Keep looking at EU touring. I know we keep talking about that, but it is really important that that keeps being looked at. I was just looking at my notes from my colleague, and he was saying there is the most positive set of conversations since we've left the EU about this, and we're in a good place, we're in a better place than before, and we've got to keep working on that.

I think arts funding—Dafydd was talking about this—making it easier for large organisations to look at tours, look at that slightly more complex work. If we had better settlements, multi-year settlements for some of the publicly funded organisations, that would make them much more able to engage with this sort of thing.

I think there's positive work, and I think the Government's done a lot of good things, but I think those are some areas that could be looked at.

No, thank you very much.

If there's anything else that anyone wanted to raise—

Yes, just a couple of brief things. I've talked about this already, so I won't go on about it too much more, but in one of the bits of information that a member sent me, I thought this was a really revealing thing. This is a band that tours to Ireland I think at least once a year, so fairly regularly, in a sense. They talk about the amount of work, they talk about the carnet—I’ve mentioned that before, the expense—but they said, ‘We don't take merchandise to Ireland as that requires a separate process that we've not had the heart to tackle.’ So that's the sort of thing where, again, if you want growth in our sector and you want people to be able to—. Again, this is everyday commercial work, in a sense, it's just the kind of weekly gigging that people pay their bills with. You do need people to be able to make their money from that to support their work. So, I think that's just an example of the kind of thing we're looking at, and again I'd say that really—and I'm talking to Creative Wales about this as well specifically—that support for touring and support for performances, whatever type of venue they're in, but touring and performances.

And I think hearing from another member, they felt very much that Ireland do a better job of exporting to us than we do of exporting to them. So, I think there is an opportunity there, certainly from their point of view, and it fits with what I'd more generally say of really looking at how do we get our music out into Ireland, and other places too. But I think the closeness there is a real opportunity.

I just wanted to ask: are we making those representations to Creative Wales? Are you aware that they're taking those further, or what the next steps are?

For me, that's a conversation that I'm looking to have particularly around the next year and the next budget and the next set of funding schemes, I suppose. That team does some great work, and I think their funding is really important. We were talking about—. Because I'm on the board—. We were talking at the last meeting about just some of the challenges of getting the support to the right places. There's a real conversation right now about touring, and it needs to be a real focus, and how you get people around Wales, but then the rest of the UK, and then internationally as well. Because then you can enable them to make their living and actually get the music out there and get the growth.

If I can ask you firstly, Jane: Amgueddfa Cymru has already given evidence to our inquiries previously, both looking at Wales-Ireland relations and also on 'Culture shock' and the effects of Brexit—could you please update us on your work with Ireland since then? 

Yes, of course. Ireland has historically been, and continues to be, one of our most important strategic international partnerships. We're very targeted as an organisation as to where we feel we can have most impact, most benefit, for the people of Wales in terms of our international working, and Ireland is definitely at the top of that list.

So, at the corporate level, of course, we have a memorandum of understanding with the National Museum of Ireland. But across the museum family, be that through research, collections, curatorial staff, projects, there are all sorts of individual initiatives that have been developed through particular relationships. We've also developed a strong working relationship with the Consulate General of Ireland in Wales, which, of course, is a huge asset to us here in Wales. One key example of that was, in July of this year, we hosted the launch event for the Ireland-Wales shared statement at our National Waterfront Museum in Swansea. Also, since we were last presenting to the committee on this subject, we've opened the Vulcan at St Fagans, and the Vulcan, really, is right at the heart of the Irish community and Irish culture within Wales. That was, of course, in a part of Cardiff that was populated particularly by the Irish who moved over to Wales. So, we've been working with the consulate and the Irish community in Wales around the opportunity of the Vulcan, and events there, and how they can really see that as their community space to use as they want to.

Since I've taken office, I've also been really developing the relationships that we have at a corporate level with both the National Museum of Ireland and the National Gallery of Ireland. Only a week or two weeks ago, I was over in Dublin for the second annual meeting of the UK and Irish cultural institutions. This was organised by the UK Government's Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport and the Government of Ireland in Dublin. We were there, many of us from Wales—there was a really strong Welsh contingent—and we were looking at opportunities for joint programming, joint initiatives, collaboration, skills transfer. I'm really excited that there are some very specific projects that we are now developing with the National Museum of Ireland that we'll be putting forward for funding through that programme.

Yes, just a few questions, and just commenting on the Vulcan and how much larger it seems from how I remember it from the 1970s and so on, but that's another matter. It's certainly a massive asset there at St Fagans. What would you identify as being, really, the main challenges, the main issues, that are affecting you that we need to look at, that we need to address, that you would like to see addressed at the moment?

I think that a lot of this work is happening as a result of goodwill and individual relationships, perhaps, rather than a clear set of strategic objectives that we can collectively work towards as bodies in Wales, not just the amgueddfa. So, I think that would be a key thing that could be improved. I think, clearly, funding would make a really big difference, and funding that was delivered over a long period of time. Just an experience I had the other day—so, I spend time in the museum with different teams that specialise in different areas of our work, and I spent some time with the marine biology team curators very recently. When you walk into that section of the museum, there's a huge poster on the wall, and it shows, obviously, the UK and then Ireland, but it focuses on the sea in between. And we can end up thinking about the two land masses, but we don't think about the fact that we have one sea between us, and what this poster shows is all the work that was done collaboratively between ourselves and our Irish partners over a very long period. It may be two decades—I might be wrong on that. What they were doing was they were tracking the life on the sea bed and how it was moving. And you can track—they're called bristle worms—different types of worms, where they are, where they've moved. And if you have long-term funding, then you don't just get a once-in-time snapshot—you keep revisiting it every maybe three, five years. And that was a massively insightful, important insight into climate change, because the worms and where they are is one of our best indicators of the changing temperatures of the waters, which is an indicator of the changing temperature of the planet. Now, the reason I'm raising that is because the post has stopped. There is no more work going on in that area. And so work that had been built up over many years, and a picture that was evolving, now no longer takes place. And I just thought, 'What a shame.' So, that kind of initiative, which I think is so important to our society now, relies on not just funding, but funding that is committed to over a long period of time, with a shared strategic objective that is something that we absolutely share in common for the benefit of all our communities.

I'm certainly intrigued by the bristle worm, which I knew very little about until just now. You've previously given evidence, really, about the situation with Brexit, and, of course, this is incredibly topical at the moment, in terms of discussions, in terms of everything that's happening and all the complications and issues that are arising as a result. Since you last gave evidence, has the situation changed? Are there any developments that you want to draw our attention to? Are there any particular areas of focus that you think are really important for us to address at this moment in time? Essentially, what has changed?

Obviously, there are challenges post Brexit—the loss of the funding, some of the important collaborations that we had and the research that we were doing under programmes like INTERREG. But I think you heard quite a lot about that from your previous witnesses. I think something I want to flag as a positive that has happened is that, in the past couple of years, the UK has become a signatory to the United Nations Convention for the Safeguarding of the Intangible Cultural Heritage. Now, for many, many years, we were an outlier in the UK to this. It is a really powerful statement that we have now joined it and, from my sector, intangible cultural heritage is one of the most important areas of overlap and synergy that we have with our friends in Ireland. So, being able to work together around crafts, skills, traditions, music, dance—all those things that, for me, make us what we are as Wales, and what makes Ireland what it is as Ireland—are captured, often, through our intangible heritage. When I went over to Dublin last week, I felt a greater synergy, if I'm honest, to the partners that I was meeting in Ireland than to many of the partners I meet in the wider UK, because there is a real shared sense of a culture, a set of values and the work that we do as organisations. And often, it's coming down to intangible heritage and it's coming down to inclusive histories. And I think that's another thing that has happened in the years since Brexit. There has been greater interest and engagement with telling the stories that weren't previously told, inviting people who perhaps weren't previously represented in our institutions to share their experiences. And we've done a lot with that in Wales and we've done some really pioneering work in the amgueddfa. And similarly, Ireland does such a lot around that. There are so many difficult stories, from Ireland's past, that they've been wrestling with. So, there are shared methodologies, commitments and values that I think have come more to the fore, ironically, since Brexit. So, although we can talk about everything that we've lost, I think we can also look at some of the things that have come to the fore and, perhaps in the way that we work together, take greater advantage of those.

I think the other thing we've done since Brexit, as a nation, is some really brilliant work with our 'Wales in' years. And I agree with Dafydd from the Arts Council of Wales that a year is not enough to deliver this work. You just get started after a year, and then exciting stuff is moving. But I think what it's done is create a kind of a methodology, a way of working, that has shown us that, if you take an all-encompassing approach to focusing on our relationship with a nation, you make a leap forward, rather than a gradual, step-by-step approach. So, I think those 'Wales in' years have been really helpful, and if we can perhaps reimagine how we do that moving forward, that could really deliver for our work with Ireland, I think.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I just wondered, obviously building on the points you made, Jane, in terms of greater synergy and so on, how the Wales-Ireland forum and also the shared statement are actually helping to progress that now. What's your feeling with the new statement, and how you're involved in that, because, obviously you're named as Amgueddfa Cymru again in this specifically? So, I just wondered how you are being supported to take that forward. 

Diolch. I haven't got direct experience and engagement with the forum. The statement I can speak much more clearly about. So, I think—. I'm delighted that we're mentioned, because that's really important, because we really believe that we have an important role to play. So, isn't it great when cultural organisations are recognised?

I think the shame is that we tend to think in boxes, or put people and organisations into boxes, and that limits the full impact and the ability to realise the opportunity fully. So, I think, when the amgueddfa is cited in a statement like this, it tends to be more in the rather limited context of us purely as a cultural venue, as a museum. Whereas, really, on behalf of Wales, Amgueddfa Cymru is so much more, in terms of—. You know, we are an independent research organisation on a par with universities. So, our research work—we're the biggest provider of education outside of schools in Wales, so there's so much around learning, engagement, the collections. And I think what we're not doing enough of is reading across and seeing how organisations like ours can deliver to the bigger agenda that Wales has as a nation, and I think some of your previous witnesses spoke to this as well.

But we, as cultural bodies, and specifically us as the amgueddfa, can do so much for Wales around soft power. And if we could be engaging with wider teams in Welsh Government, with trade and investment, the economy et cetera, there are things that we could do to open up doors that have much wider benefits for Wales, beyond purely culture. And I think if you just see, with the recent work with France, the power of just agreeing that the Bayeux tapestry is coming to the UK—it just shows you that if we can get a really strong cultural connection, which is more widely linked into the strategic objectives of Government, around economic growth, skills development et cetera, et cetera, we can be a really positive, friendly way in into some of those, occasionally more challenging, conversations.

So, I really welcome the statement. I'm delighted we're in it. I think there's much more we could do on it if we look more broadly, and if we're a bit more joined up, and perhaps even a little bit more ambitious about what we want to get from it. 

So, can I take from that—? Did you know you were going to be in it, and did you have any sight of it, or influence, prior to its publication? And also, will you be part of the forming of any action plans that you can help shape, with your involvement and the measures, linked to the fact that you're named? Sorry, lots of questions there.

I'm just going to hopefully go through them in order. I personally wasn't aware that we were going to be in the statement. I think we'd been referenced in the previous iteration, so perhaps it shouldn't have been a surprise to us. It may have been that people on my team were aware and just that I hadn't clicked it. But I can't say that I was aware. And, again, I haven't been engaged in any conversations about the action plan to date, or about how the work might go forward, but we're obviously very willing to be part of that, if that's welcome.

Is it something that you're proactively seeking through the Minister? Can I ask which department have you had the most contact with regarding this, or has it just been that you're named and that's it?

I haven't had contact with Government departments about it, beyond, obviously, us hosting the launch of it. Pretty much all of our contact with the Welsh Government comes through the culture department, and that's why I was saying, really, that it would be great to be more widely plugged in, I think.

Yes. So, in terms of the international relations team, then, you're not having those meetings or you've not been invited to anything around the action plan currently, just for clarity for us. 

Not that I can remember. We have conversations with the international team, because we work with them whenever there are important visitors to Cardiff or other parts of Wales. We work with them on the 'Wales in'—so, on Wales in France, Wales in Japan, we worked very closely with them. But I'm not aware, personally, that we have been particularly closely involved in this particular piece.

Thank you. I think you've covered quite clearly there that the shared statement, maybe, captures some of your work with Ireland, but not all of it, and there's the potential for more. In terms of some of the things that we've seen before—. I know that you were talking about focusing on the positive, but is there anything that you think remains as something from Brexit that is still proving to be a barrier to some of the things that you'd like to achieve. Obviously, you mentioned research, and that's something that came through in our previous reports as being impacted because of there being less potential funding for collaborative projects. So, it's just to understand if things have progressed from our 'Culture shock' report previously, or are there some things that you'd still like to see movement on?

I think that the reality is that there aren't necessarily new challenges but that the challenges that were identified before remain. So, those challenges around research, like the bristle worms example, nothing has moved on. There has not become a new opportunity to do that kind of work. The funding that we had—. The beauty of European funding, of course, was that it was multi-year, so you could take a programme approach and recognise that, often, it can take three years for a project to deliver. So, all of those challenges that were flagged previously still remain. We haven't uncovered anything new, but it would be great to be able to address some of what are now becoming longer standing challenges. 

Thank you. If I may just ask one other question, Chair. We also have a joint statement between the UK Government and the Irish Government. Arts and culture are referenced there. Are you part of any discussions relating to what that would look like on a UK-wide level? Is that something that the sector is engaged with and, if so, how?

Yes. So, that is really positive. In that context, we had the event that I referenced where I went to Dublin a couple of weeks ago. That piece of work at the UK level is really proactively bringing together the key cultural players from all parts of the UK and actively encouraging us to bring forward projects. The Irish Government has put €6 million into a fund that will enable us to develop projects, and we as Amgueddfa Cymru will be submitting projects under the themes of research and also skills and knowledge transfer, and we're doing that with the National Museum of Ireland, and also for one of the projects we will be teaming up with our friends at National Museums NI in Northern Ireland and the National Museum of Scotland as well. So, it feels like that has impetus, energy, it's being well co-ordinated, the British Council are playing a really important role, and that work is being underpinned by an important piece of research that I think Eluned brought to you in the previous session, and I'd really commend that research to you. It's a really interesting, revealing piece of work that shows where the barriers are now and what some of the opportunities are.

Thank you. There seems to be quite a contrast there in terms of how you're being involved here in Wales and on a UK level in terms of those statements. Can I ask, are you aware if the UK Government have any funds to support the work that you're involved with, or is it likely that all of the funds will be from the pot of money, the €6 million we heard about earlier that the Irish Government have set aside?

Our understanding is that, no, there is no money coming from the UK Government. We've obviously been asking about that, because it feels a bit awkward when you're in the room and all of the money is coming from one side. But, at the moment, there doesn't seem to be a commitment to money from the UK.

Is that likely, then, to impact on your resources—i.e. will you have to find, within Amgueddfa Cymru's current budget, any funding to help enable that work to happen?

I'm not 100 per cent sure. I think the money coming from the Irish Government is for both sets of partners. I don't think it's that that just funds the Irish bit and we have to fund the Welsh bit. But it's all so new and we've only just had sight of it, and the deadline is early in January, so we're discovering more about it as we do it at the moment. I'm not entirely clear. 

Thank you, because, obviously, in terms of staff resource, there will be an implication for you there. And can I just ask, as part of the joint statement between the UK Government and Ireland does reference the Euro 2028 men's football championship and the role of each of the nations, are you involved in any of that preparatory work in terms of the cultural offer? But also, obviously, there's a huge opportunity to showcase our national museums to all those coming to Wales for that tournament as well.

Yes, it's a really exciting opportunity for us. I'm not aware that we, as yet, have been involved in the planning around that, but we have developed in recent years really great relationships with the Football Association of Wales, and we've supported both men's and women's championships, where Wales has been involved in both men's and women's championships. And we support with programming and exhibitions, and we also celebrate those who are representing Wales internationally at our sites. So, I would really anticipate that we would be part of that offer and can add that cultural dimension to that really exciting event. 

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Chair. I want to touch on funding and resources and ask a couple of further questions relating to the earlier ones around the EU and Brexit and things. One of the most important messages we heard in our 2023 Wales-Ireland work was that funding was needed to match ambition, and, at that time, many witnesses were receiving the last of their EU funding. Has your sector been impacted by those funding challenges? I'd strongly guess that 'yes' would be the answer to that, but what effect has it had on your work with Wales-Ireland?

Well, yes, and to come back to an earlier point, research is really badly hit in that context. And it's through research that we deepen our understanding of our past within the museum and enable our visitors to learn new things about the future, as I was saying, for example, with climate change. So, when your funding is limited purely to UK sources, it's very competitive, and often we put forward a project and we might come in at No. 2, but there's only funding for one organisation, and therefore the research agenda isn't able to move forward as much as it would.

I think also it's just about networks and mobility. As museums, we grow when we get the opportunity to learn from one another, and, as I said, there is such amazing synergy with institutions in Ireland. I mean, even the portfolio of museums within the National Museum of Ireland is so similar to us, with an equivalent to St Fagans et cetera, but with funding being so tight, we can't, as an organisation, just say, 'Yes, go over for a research visit', to our visitor experience teams or curators, and, 'Learn how they're doing it over there', or, 'Why don't we go over and share knowledge about how we're using Welsh language in the visitor experience?', which is a bit more new to Irish organisations. So, lack of funding definitely impacts on how much we are able to do, and, as I say, a lot of the relationships are based on personal networks and goodwill, really.

Yes, and just in addition to that, just to hone in on the support from Governments and what you would like it to look like, do you think that that is the most critical part of delivering the ambitions of the shared statements? And what areas would you specifically target within that?

In terms of the priorities for the delivery?

Yes.

I think I would say that the priorities should be about taking a whole-term approach. So, if an administrative cycle is four years, seeing it, as a minimum, a whole administration effort and then putting a funding structure in place that reflects that, so that you can develop initiatives together. So, for example, if we were to do a collaboration and shared exhibitions, et cetera, an exhibition usually takes three years to develop, and so I would say, 'Take that longer view, learn from what we've done with Wales in Japan, Wales in France and then elevate that to a bigger, more purposeful approach to the relationship with Ireland.' And then I would suggest that there's a lot of work that we should do internally. So, it's not just about what we do between ourselves and Ireland, but how we really make stronger linkages within Wales so that it's a much more coherent offer, so that we strengthen the connections between the cultural organisations, we strengthen the relationship between those organisations and the different departments in Government, and particularly with the international departments and trade and invest, so that rather than cultural organisations just being seen as the bits that are done by those guys over there with the cultural portfolio, it's seen as being part of a wider effort.

So, I think that they would be my big recommendations: longer term approach, real focus and intent, perhaps with a dedicated cross-party group supporting it, and then really getting our ducks in a row behind the scenes so that everything is co-ordinated and connected, so that we get the biggest impact from the effort that we put into it.

And just finally, if I may, Chair, we heard from the previous panel this morning evidence to the tune of culture being regarded as fairly nebulous in some ways, and being quite hard to draw down specific and sustainable funding for in some senses. Do you see that challenge within the culture sector, and do you think that's a fair remark to make, in recognising some of those challenges in getting the funding they need, really?

I do, actually. I do. I think culture can sometimes be seen as the fluffy bit, or the 'nice to have'. I don't think everybody always realises the full power of what culture can unlock. A recent example would be the big investment summit that we had, with a big economic focus. Culture wasn't part of that. Had we been, there were all sorts of 'wow' moments we could create for a summit like that that could get to the heart as well as the head. And I think if you're trying to achieve a big ambition, like big economic investment into Wales, it's got to be heart; people aren't just going to do it on the figures and the economic projections. But if you can create a sense of excitement and wonder and wow about what Wales stands for and what we have and the treasures and the richness of what Wales is as a country, then we land some big economic wins. But that's what culture can bring, and that's why I think we've got to stop seeing it as being in a particular and perhaps more nebulous box, as you say, and get culture around the table to deliver on some of these bigger things for Wales.

Diolch.

Just to pick up your comment there about culture being neglected in the investment summit, was that something the sector raised in advance?

Yes. Well, whether the sector did, I can't say, sorry, Lee; we did as the amgueddfa. We made the case, and not least because, as you and the committee know, there is big investment needed in the cultural offer of Wales and the cultural infrastructure in Wales. And so we did press quite hard to be able to be included, but the remit was very tight for that event, and so it was felt that, for this particular event, there wasn't a need for us to be involved.

What was the rationale as you understood it?

I think it was just that it was a very limited guest list, very limited remit that was being targeted in very particular ways, and that our offer wasn't perhaps part of the way the event had been designed and the remit of the event.

Lee, I think Heledd just wants to ask something quickly.

May I just ask to whom did you make the representations? Was that to the Minister?

Not directly to the Minister. We were liaising. The culture department, of course, supported us in making representation to the international department. But it was at that level—it was the organising department that made the decision.

Thank you. I think it's quite at odds with what I heard from the Minister yesterday, where I was told that culture and sport were at the heart of the event, so certainly that's something we can pick up on. Thank you, Chair.

Diolch. Lee.

I think it's quite telling, isn't it? I just wanted to ask, in terms of what this committee might recommend to our successor, where you think the focus should be for the next Senedd term on Wales-Ireland relationships and any recommendations you think we should think about.

I think we should be really ambitious with it. I think we can definitely lead with a cultural offer. Let's have an ambition on scale of the Bayeux tapestry, let's go really big, but do that with the intention of wider benefits for Wales, so that you go for something really ambitious because it's going to deliver on skills, on economic growth, et cetera. If we did something really big on culture, it would get so much profile, excitement. People on the streets of both countries will talk about it, and then that opens the door to the bigger things. So, that's why I think—bring together a dedicated group to deliver on this opportunity. We've got the EU presidency coming. I think Wales-Ireland is probably the biggest international opportunity we've got. So, as they say, go big or go home. I would take it to a whole new level.

Interesting. What do you think might be our equivalent of the Bayeux tapestry? 

We have an extraordinary set of collections that we can offer, and it would be interesting to talk to people in Ireland about some of their amazing treasures that they've got in the museums that will never have been seen in Wales before. I wouldn't want to put them on the spot right now by naming things, but if we had the mandate to be talking at that level—. Just look at what we did with Wales and France. We just exchanged one item each. We took Renoir's Blue Lady to the Musée d'Orsay, and we got a Van Gogh back. That was unbelievable in terms of the museum. It was unbelievable in terms of Cardiff, and then the events, the soft-power benefits that we had off the back of it, the people that were able to come in and engage around it, the VIPs, et cetera, fantastic visitor numbers. That was one painting. Imagine, if we had a whole programme at that level with Ireland, what it could do and what it could open up.

I must say, having been to both, the visitor experience at the national museum in Cardiff is significantly better than the Musée d'Orsay. I think that's a really useful, tangible recommendation for us to make. Thank you.

Diolch, Lee. Jane, was there anything further that you had hoped to bring up this morning that hasn't come up in the question areas?

I'm delighted to have mentioned bristleworms. I hope that that might be their first appearance at this—

You caught our attention. I am obsessed with wanting to see a picture of one now.

There are all sorts, and we've got some of the greatest experts in the UK, if not Europe, around bristleworms. But the one thing that I was hoping to say is that I think one thing we could do more of is create the spaces for people to come together—so, having conferences, workshops, study opportunities, literally creating the moment and the space where we can learn from one another. At the moment, because there isn't funding, that kind of stuff hasn't been happening. I had half a day with my counterpart in the National Museum of Ireland, and I came back buzzing with opportunity and ideas. Imagine if we could bring teams together in the same space to talk about those big opportunities that I was just describing. So, sometimes it just starts with a little bit of money to create a moment and a space where people can talk and connect.

Thank you ever so much. Well—

Chair, I just—

Oh, yes, Mick, forgive me.

Are they Welsh bristleworms or Irish bristleworms, or has that not been determined yet? 

Shall we claim them?

They're all part of the same sea. 

That's a very diplomatic answer.

There were good challenges for us, and, again, some notes of hope to end on as well.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you very much.

And Mícheál, if you could introduce yourself, please, for the record.

Dia daoibh. Helo, sut wyt ti? Mícheál Ó Foighil is my name. I'm the chief executive officer of Coláiste Lurgan here in Indreabhán. We're looking back with pride on the amazing projects. I've lost count of how many we've completed with our partners in the Urdd over the past four or five years, and looking forward to many more.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Mícheál, is there anything that you would like to add to this, please? We'd be very interested to hear from you.

I suppose the most profound influence I see from these workshops, this connection or this collaboration is that you can see it in how it influences the young people. I've been working with young people here in Ireland for quite a number of years, bringing them on courses. I suppose one big difference between the Urdd and Lurgan would be, I suppose, that we deal mostly with those who are trying to acquire the language. We look enviously on our Welsh counterparts where they already have acquired the language. It's not a language-learning kind of situation or objective.

But learning, acquisition, using, it's a tight space. Once you're creating, once you're using, once you're enjoying, once you're reaching out, especially to peers, the people of same age group, I know how powerful it is, because I know how well it works. We're fortunate. Even though, at the moment, Lurgan's medium-term objective—. Gabh mo leithscéal. I'm a bit under the weather at the moment.

We've a fairly major redevelopment programme under way at the moment. It's going to be a fairly substantial one, where we're going to end up, hopefully, in three years' time, with a state-of-the-art creative space. Even though it's going to be state owned, it really is driven by Lurgan. Especially the creative aspects have been driven by Lurgan. They're quite ambitious. But it will create this multi-function, immersive, audiovisual very expansive space using the latest technology in acoustics and the sound system and all that's going on. It's state of the art. All of this vision or this ambition has all arisen from the energy that young people supply. All you need to do for young people—. We regard ourselves as being kind of just facilitators, creating the space, giving the opportunities, and after that it's just facilitating and allowing young people more or less to create. 

This has actually arisen from—. I suppose we're going back almost 20 years now of creating, as Siân said there. It's contemporary music, yes. Some of the traditionalists don't like it so much, but, you know, it's what students want to create themselves. Last August, we had an amazing four days with the Irish congregation here in Lurgan. There are two outstanding—I'd say our two best yet—projects. They're still in the editing suite. People say they'll finish this, that and the other, but we are a tiny organisation. During the summer, we'd have 150 people working full-time for us; the rest of the year it's only me. We're not state run, but we co-operate with the state. And another point I'd like to make is that all that Lurgan puts into it comes from Lurgan's funds. Our funds come 100 per cent from parents that pay fees to send their students to Lurgan.

But the parallel is huge, the aspirations are the same. You can see us talking. And I love chatting with the young people from Wales, because they're interchangeable with the young people that we meet coming on our courses. They're really positive, really kind, really engaging. You can see that the language barrier is a bit of a—. Yes, it is. We're supporting Gaeilge. I suppose it would be the same with Cymraeg. But I suppose there is a bit of a challenge in that there is a bit of a language barrier when we want to actually communicate straight away, directly.

But we had two teachers over—Iestyn Jones from Cardiff and Paul from Anglesey. They actually partook in our course last year, and they were part of our teaching staff. What they did is they introduced a Cymraeg module over the 10 preceding days before the contingent from the Urdd actually arrived, and that was hugely, hugely successful. It did deepen the whole idea of it being a language exchange, more so than in previous years, when this didn't happen. So, yes, I would say we would fully intend to maybe have two more teachers from Wales to prepare the ground for when the Urdd contingent arrives so that they would have quite a number of essential basics, because you don't need a huge amount to interact.

Thank you ever so much.

Just a couple of short general questions that follow on from that. I suppose, basically, if you could outline what you see as being the one or two most important issues and challenges that you're facing, and the obstacles, I suppose, to both of you in terms of your work and the relationships developed, and perhaps add on to that, to deal with this as one item, the issue of Brexit and whether you see any particular developments there or issues there or opportunities there that may impact on what you're able to do in the future.

Thank you.

And Mícheál on this.

Problems? No, we don't have problems, I must admit. We don't have problems. We find it really easy to set up and to organise our workshops with the Urdd. It's not at all difficult, and we're really very much looking forward to next year's workshops already. I don't think we will be able to visit Cardiff as was planned. For the last two years, we weren't able to travel because we don't have a campus at the moment. We're currently building our second temporary campus for next summer. We're under extreme pressure to have it ready in time for next summer—there are camps, et cetera—just to make way for the new development that will open in 2028. But we find it very, very easy to organise, to co-ordinate with the Urdd. I know some of the personnel have changed over the years all right, but it all remains the same, so there's no difficulty in that regard whatsoever.

Thank you. Mick—

And, yes, that's—.

Forgive me. Mick, was there anything else you wanted to ask?

No, that concludes, thank you. 

Again, we’re a small organisation. We’re a tiny language school in Connemara. I suppose all or most of our dealings with politicians over the last—. And we’ve had quite a lot, but it has been all more or less focused on this huge development that I alluded to there earlier. So, we’re a bit confused, really, as to exactly what department this relationship actually comes under, whether it’s foreign affairs, whether it’s higher ed, whether it’s education, or whether it’s Gaeltacht. But there seems—.

But we’re not too worried about it, I must admit. We’re not doing this because some Government department more or less asked us to do it. We’re doing this because we see the huge, huge educational benefits. And people will say, 'What’s the educational benefit, for someone who cannot speak Gaeilge to get exposure to Cymraeg?' But it’s there. It just shows that we’re not—. The biggest challenge for Gaeilge is to normalise its use in an informal kind of interaction. That’s the huge challenge. People can learn in classrooms et cetera, but it’s to get beyond that, get beyond the classroom, get into the real world, to own it, to claim responsibility, to claim ownership of the language. That’s where the crossover is. That’s what happens, really. That’s what we set out to do during our courses during the summer. It’s kind of to—. It’s education to lead off the potential, because people are really interested in it.

But the fact that Gaeilge is not—. We always grew up thinking that that Gaeilge was just this one language at the extremity of Europe. So, it was quite profound to find out that we’re not. On my first visit to Wales about 20 years ago, I was dumbfounded at the extent of the usage of the language, especially in north Wales. And to know that you have, I suppose, your sister language—because that’s what they actually are—right there next door to you—you should know about it. When you’re studying English in the Netherlands, for example, the English department in the Netherlands have a Celtic languages department, or sub-department. It’s just to see the whole picture.

It’s not just one language—it’s not an island, it’s not there on its own. It’s just that this kind of interest—. And people are interested, all right, especially the young people that I’ve met from Wales, and their teachers, and the young people—they’re keenly interested in, 'Wow, do you know what, there is—we are not alone, we are not so different after all—another kind of close relation here, right next to our doorstep that we know nothing about'. If you look at this from an educational point of view, the goal should be, long term, for people to know, to realise, to see the full picture. When you just look at Gaeilge only, all you're seeing is part of the picture, and the same for Welsh. They're two sides of the same coin.

Sorry.

Sorry. We'll go to Siân first and then I promise we'll come back to you, Mícheál.

No. I don't know anything about it, no. We wouldn't be involved. We live hand-to-mouth, really, here. We know our income comes from parents' fees, and that's what we rely on mostly. As I said before, we are involved in a huge, huge development project already, and that is going to—. There is quite a substantial amount of funds being allocated to that, so we're delighted with that, but not that particular EU fund you alluded to.

Okay. Sorry, Mícheál, was there anything you wanted to add?

No, but just, look, when we're playing Wales, I don't think there's going to be too much co-operation, if we get drawn against Wales in any of the games, all right. But after that, they're my second favourite team.

That's on the record now. We'll hold you to it.

Yes. But what we have done quite successfully in the past, all right, especially with—. Ireland haven't happened to appear in too many finals over the last number of years, but we've had some very successful songs that students did during the course of Gaeilge. We had a really nice rugby one a number of years ago as well. We used to build a project around it and have kind of a support song as Gaeilge to back the team.

I don't think we can have one to back both teams. I don't think so. That would be pushing it a bit too far, I think. [Laughter.]

I've known people who have one parent from one nation and another parent from another and they have fashioned their own equivalent of a T-shirt with both. But it becomes very messy, so I respect your decision.

Thank you, Chair. Good morning—well, good afternoon, everybody, I should say now. I was going to ask my first question about EU funding, but I think that's been addressed earlier on in the session with the evidence that the Urdd hasn't received funding from the EU since 2008, and thus is not being impacted by Brexit. So, my only question to both, really, is: what support from the Governments do you think is most critical to delivering the ambitions of the shared statements, and are there any areas you would look to specifically target within that?

I suppose we would very much like to continue with our workshops. They've been such a dynamic part of our summer programme over the last number of years and people really look forward to them quite a lot. And the support, you know, whatever support is necessary—. I'm not saying we receive a lot of support from the Irish Government just in that respect, but it doesn't cost all that much, it's quite easy to do and, as I said, as an educational benefit, I think it's more than worth while.

So, yes, what I'd like to see is to keep things very much alive over the next few years. And, again, I'll mention that, in 2028, this new centre that will be opened in Connemara will be built on these kinds of projects. These projects and this kind of input, and then the interest that's generated across the world, are the reason why it's going to be built. Once we're there, it's a game changer. It's a game changer, and we would very much like to be in a position to really develop further collaborations between—. The collabs between Éireann and Cymru, you know, I see them as being really natural ones. From a geography point of view, they are so near and the similarities are there, and the language is the common purpose, all right. So, yes, I would say our goal over the next two years, as we build our new place, would be to keep things going, the workshops proceeding. That's what I'd like, to have the workshops continue, and hopefully to have a really good look at things when the new centre gets built. It's going to be really, really exciting.

Thank you so much.

Diolch.

I think we've covered a lot of this already. I just wanted a chance to sweep up, really, and look forward to the work of this committee in the next Senedd and what things you think we should be recommending to them that they look at, in terms of the Wales-Ireland relationship and any priorities you think that we should have.

We'll go to Mícheál first, Lee, on this one.

Sorry?

We'll come to you, firstly, on this one.

Sorry, Lee, I didn't get that. Sorry, Lee.

Okay, it was just to see what you think the committee in the future should focus on. What priorities would you recommend for the future relationship?

Well, look, far be it from me to tell people what to prioritise. All I know is what we prioritise all the time ourselves. We prioritise having the young person at the centre—how can you not support, but incentivise, to educate. We're all about education, so it's all about the people, the young people that are involved. So, the support, have that as your mainstay. Again, it's bringing people together. There's a lot of work involved. I know the amount of work involved in getting people together, whether it's over in Wales or here in Éireann, and the amount of work involved in compiling these absolutely fantastic workshops into two or three days. There's a huge, huge amount of work involved. But that's the energy that comes from the participants that make it such a special event, and you can see, as I said, we have two outstanding projects. One just finished the day before yesterday. We'll possibly have them up online in the new year. But it's really that—it's really just to keep your eye on the most important thing of all, and that is to support and incentivise the young people.

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you ever so much. Siân.

Just to say, I'm enjoying your podcast, Lee, by the way. But just go back to what the priorities are—

Diolch.

I've got a couple of questions, but just to ask one thing that follows on from what you were saying there, you've inherited and you receive a lot of archives to do with politics, political events and so on, which are incredibly important for the future. Do you have a problem now that so many records are actually digital and then how those can actually get transferred over? Because it's one thing receiving a big box of papers, it's another thing now when, effectively, these things are digital and you have someone who passes on or whatever. Is there a concern about lots of archives being lost because of that, or is there a way of tackling it? 

Thank you. I think I probably went a bit off message with that. 

It was still very interesting. I don't think that that is off message; it's interesting.

What would you challenge—? Just looking in terms of this particular aspect of our inquiry, as we look back and also try and identify things that have been changing recently—and particular challenges that are facing us and particularly for the coming Senedd—what are the main issues that you face now? How is this really affecting your current work? And what would you say are the biggest problems, biggest challenges, that are facing you?

And can I just add on then, rather than going into it as a separate thing, obviously, leaving the European Union had a big impact in terms of a lot of relationships and a lot of engagement and a lot of cross-border projects and so on? Are there any sort of updates, really, on the position you have in terms of challenges that arise from that and arise from the relations? You've already explained quite thoroughly the developing relationship with Ireland and so on. But are there any broader problems that are arising from, I suppose, our post-EU status?

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon, everyone. I want to touch on funding and resources. One of the most important messages we heard in our 2023 Wales-Ireland work was that need for funding to match ambition. Has the National Library of Wales been impacted by funding challenges, and what effect has this had on your work with Wales-Ireland?

It's quite coincidental. 

Thanks for that. I'm a bit like Heledd, really, in that I could listen to your evidence for most of the afternoon. But my final question is just around what support from the Government you think is most critical to delivering the ambitions of the shared statement. Are there any areas you would specifically target? I can gather from the answer to the first question at the end there that it would be over resources to maybe digitise or make items of reference and manuscripts and things more publicly accessible. But, in your words, where would those priorities lie in that sense?

Just as an aside, I went to see the Portrait and Power exhibition last week, which I thought was world-class—it really was quite brilliant. And I'm also a big fan of the Cyfrinachau'r Llyfrgell series that S4C did with the library, which I think is an amazing showcase of what the library does. And I must say to Maredudd that I think he's the real star of it. So, there we are, there's my sycophancy out of the way.

On the question before us today, we just want some suggestions from you for what future focus the successor committee has in the next Senedd for Wales and Ireland. What are the priorities that you think we should be highlighting?

Forgive me, Lee, did you want to come back in?

Can I just ask—? We heard from the chief exec of the museum that she thought that we should have ambition—and she gave the example of the exchange of the Bayeux tapestry—that we should have a grand vision of something we want to do in partnership with Ireland. Can you think of an example in your field? If you were to think big, what kind of exchange or what kind of initiative would that be?

The Llanbadarn manuscripts, I think, is probably the big project. You can't go any bigger than bringing those three treasures back to Aberystwyth, back to mid Wales, but also telling a story that is a national story, that's a Welsh story but that is even bigger than Wales. That's a story that combines Ireland and Wales, as they both face the Norman influence coming from the east. I think that's an important story to tell and it's one that we can only do by borrowing an element but then telling the story. So, I think that's an ambitious project in itself. I hope we manage to bring it off.