National Assembly for Wales

Welcome to this hybrid meeting of the Petitions Committee. As a reminder, the meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Actually, everybody's present today, so we're not hybrid. There are no apologies. Could I ask committee members to note any declarations of interest now or at the relevant point during proceedings? Okay. I would like to declare an interest regarding item 2.6, petition P-06-1521, the petitioner is an employee of mine—that's regarding the park homes and water meters.

If we move on now to new petitions. We've got three NHS-related petitions that we're taking together now. So, item 2.1, P-06-1538, 'Protect full stroke services at Bronglais Hospital; prevent downgrade to Treat and Transfer'.

'Hywel Dda University Health Board's consultation proposes removing Bronglais Hospital’s full stroke service, forcing patients from Ceredigion, Powys, and South Meirionnydd into risky, long-distance transfers to hospitals in Llanelli or Haverfordwest. We urge the Senedd and Welsh Government to intervene immediately, insisting HDdUHB fully assesses these impacts and commits to maintaining Bronglais as a stroke rehabilitation unit, protecting vital health services in Mid Wales.'

The submitter is Bryony Davies, and she has collected a total of 17,883 signatures. Could I invite Luke to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Given that the petition is just shy of 18,000 signatures, could I suggest that we ask the Business Committee for a debate? It's past the threshold, so in this instance, I think it's pretty clear for us to request a debate.

Thank you, Luke. Is everybody in agreement? Thank you. So, we will request that this goes to the Business Committee for them to schedule a debate. I notice, in the pack, we've had a comprehensive response from the Protect Bronglais Services group, so a lot of that information could be incorporated into the debate as well, which is really useful. Thank you.

So, moving on to item 2.2, P-06-1543, 'Keep weekend opening at Cardigan minor injuries unit'.

'The minor injuries unit has been funded for a trial period this is ending and the service takes pressure off the A+E units in west Wales which have the worst waiting times in Wales.'

So, this was submitted by Mark Gibbins, with 2,797 signatures. Joel, do you want to discuss this?

Thank you, Chair. I was wondering if we may be able to write to the health board to be kept updated on the business case for this. Would that be possible? Obviously, there's an opportunity for Members to raise this, if we have the debate, then, for the previous petition. But, as a stand-alone petition, I think it would be good to try and get that as well.

Okay. Is everybody in agreement with that? No dissenters. Thank you. 

Moving on to item 2.3, P-06-1544, 'Take urgent action to improve the NHS in West Wales, and address the crisis at Glangwili hospital'.

'The reduction/closure of services at other Hywel Dda hospitals has caused a crisis at Glangwili.

'Patients are having to travel huge distances to reach emergency care, increasing reliance on ambulances.

'The CDU is no longer functional as a true Clinical Decisions Unit and is operating as a ward, with unwell patients being forced to sleep in chairs in the CDU or remain in A&E as there is no ward space to admit them.

'The NHS staff are doing their best but the situation is untenable.'

This was submitted by Christine Castle with 1,304 signatures. Could I invite Rhys to discuss the petition? Thank you.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Of course. This petition and the issues raised in it are linked to the previous two petitions. The petitioner has received concerns from members of staff at the hospital, and she also has some personal experience through family members. Of course, the Hywel Dda health board is being scrutinised by the health committee, so I think we can pass on the contents of this petition to them, or the documents related to the petition to them, and also perhaps write to the health board with the concerns raised by the petitioner and wait to see the response we have from them. But I don't think we can take it that much further than that, and it's a matter for the health committee and local Members to scrutinise and ask questions of the health board.

Okay. Thank you. So, is everybody in agreement that we will write to the Health and Social Care Committee and the health board? Okay. Yes, everybody's in agreement. Thank you.

Moving on to 2.4, petition P-06-1514, 'Welsh Government should commission a Wales-wide inquiry into sexual exploitation by grooming gangs'. It reads:

'I was the victim of sexual exploitation by grooming gangs. I know that this practice is more prevalent that the authorities acknowledged. I believe the Welsh Government should undertake an inquiry to see how widespread the problem is and to support victims in Wales.'

This was submitted by Emily Vaughn with 1,764 signatures. Could I invite Vaughan to discuss the petition?

Thank you. This is obviously a very emotive subject with a real societal issue to be addressed. We've seen some of the real challenges in addressing a proper examination of child sexual exploitation and abuse. Baroness Casey undertook an audit on this issue. It was published in January, and since then the UK Government has announced a national inquiry covering England and Wales.

It may seem attractive for us to recommend a Wales-wide inquiry. The challenge is that the powers of this Senedd and the Government to undertake Wales-wide inquiries are restricted to matters that we have particular competence for, and they're essentially restricted to the way in which we see services operate. That means that matters outside Wales are unlikely to be with us, and it certainly wouldn't cover issues of cross-border exploitation, which is an issue that the petitioner has raised, as indeed have a number of other people as well. And certainly those matters that are not devolved, the reserved matters of policing and justice, for example, couldn't be covered.

If we did suggest and the Government agreed to hold a Wales-wide inquiry, I think we'd have parallel inquiries, and there's a real risk of that requiring people to go through two inquiries that could be disjointed. It does seem to me that the sensible thing is to have an England and Wales inquiry where Wales properly takes part, and the First Minister has already written to the Home Secretary to ask for that.

So, my view is that this petition has been superseded by events because, at the time the petition started, there wasn't an England and Wales inquiry. I think we should thank the petitioner for raising the issue, note the England and Wales inquiry and the clear expectation of both the Welsh Government and this committee that Wales issues will be considered individually for Wales, but in particular those cross-border issues that have regularly been raised with us.

Okay, thank you. Is everybody in acceptance of this? Thank you. It's very brave and courageous of the petitioner to come forward with this, and I'd like to thank her and assure her that it's being taken seriously with all the things that Vaughan has mentioned.

We move on to 2.5, petition P-06-1518, 'Provide more timely and accessible mental health support for children under 10, including by referral to Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services (CAMHS)'. It reads:

'"No further support available"

'A term many parents of children with mental health problems under the age of 10 will have heard multiple times when trying to get help for their children.

'A term I have heard many times, as the only support available to children is parents doing workshops, and parental wellbeing groups. What is there for the children themselves? Nothing.'

This was submitted by Lisa White, with 523 signatures. Could I invite Luke to take us through this, please?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Of course, this is a very important issue that has received a lot of attention from Members across the Chamber. I know the Welsh Government has published a new mental health strategy and well-being strategy, and that was done following a consultation. So, from our perspective as a Petitions Committee, I’m wondering, actually, is this something that is more for the health committee. So, I would suggest that perhaps we flag this with the health committee, the children and young people committee as well, as part of their general scrutiny of that strategy that the Welsh Government has published. I think it probably is better placed there than the Petitions Committee. So, in that case, I would highlight it with those committees, but close the petition with us and thank the petitioner for highlighting the issue.

Okay, thank you. Is everybody in agreement with that? Okay, thank you. So, moving forward, we'll refer it to the Children, Young People and Education Committee, thank the petitioner, and then close it. 

Moving on to item 2.6, P-06-1521, 'Give park home residents in Wales the right to a water meter'. Again, I just want to say that I declared an interest earlier, under Standing Order 17.24A, as the petitioner is employed part-time in my office. It reads:

'Residents of some park home sites in Wales are paying in excess of £60 a month in water bills, despite living in small single and double units. Currently, many site owners divide their total bill by the number of homes on the park, before passing the bill on to residents. This means there is no incentive for site owners to fix leaks, as they know residents will foot the bill regardless.

The Welsh Government could stop this injustice by giving park home residents the right to a water meter.'

This has been submitted by Sam Swash, with 447 signatures. Could I invite Joel to discuss the petition?

Thank you, Chair. I've got to admit that I was unaware that this could be an issue, actually, and it's quite shocking, if that's the case, reading the petitioner's notes and everything. And one of the things that was quite surprising also is that it highlights the concerns about the amount of leakage on the site, and how they have been in correspondence with Welsh Water and nothing seems to have happened.

I definitely think we as a committee could contact Welsh Water to see what they're doing about it, because they have the powers to go on to the site to rectify it. The only concern that I would have then is, obviously, if they looked to recuperate the costs from the land owner—the owner of the site—whether or not he would look to recuperate his costs, then, from the residents of the park homes in some way. So, there's a concern there then as well. 

I definitely think that's the first point of action. And maybe we could—I was going to say have a chat—write to Ofwat, to see what their views are on this, to see if they are aware of similar situations and what their advice would normally be. Because I definitely think that there is an argument for them to have access to water meters, but I definitely think the start of this is something that needs to be done first.

Would anybody else like to come in on this? No. Besides the enormous cost, we're in a climate emergency, and if there's water leaking underground, it creates swallow holes, doesn't it, as well, which is another danger and will cost a lot for remediation. 

So, moving forward, if we could write to Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water, asking for their position with regard to the situation—a forceful letter—and what it would take to resolve the situation, and Ofwat, to see if it's an issue that they are actually aware of as well. Okay? Thank you. 

Moving on to item 2.7, P-06-1526, 'Save Grassroots Sports—Welsh Government Must Step In!'

'Grassroots sports are under threat in Caerphilly County Borough and beyond. Our local council is attempting to balance the books through above-inflation increases to pitch fees, placing an unfair burden on community clubs. This comes despite facilities like Abercarn Welfare being in a shocking state this season.'

This was submitted by Craig Roch, with 398 signatures. I hope I pronounced his name correctly. Could I bring in Rhys to discuss the petition?

Thank you very much, Cadeirydd. I'd like to begin by congratulating the petitioner, because the specific issue that led to this petition has been reversed by the council, and again we should pay tribute to our late friend Hefin David, who I know was a supporter of this petition and the campaign to reverse the decision by Caerphilly council. However, the petition and the comments by the petitioner deal with far more than just the pitch increase. It mentions other difficulties facing local clubs. The petitioner mentions several of them—for example, the increase in energy bills. Perhaps we could send the comments to the relevant Senedd committee—the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport and International Relations Committee—so that they are aware of the experience of this local club in Caerphilly. It probably is replicated elsewhere. But other than that, I'd like to again congratulate the petitioner and close the petition.

Okay, thank you. Would anybody else like to come in? I saw the graph in the pack, which shows how with pressures on education and health, leisure services such as this have taken a hit over the years, where councils are having to make difficult decisions, but again it's all part of the health prevention, as well, isn't it, and building strong communities as well. So, if we can write to the Minister for culture and highlight the petition to him. Thank you.

The next one is item 2.8, P-06-1535, 'Ban plastic mesh netting in grass turf in Wales'.

'The practice of incorporating plastic mesh netting in grass turf has been an increasingly worrying development over the last few years. It has an awful effect on our environment, can lead to wildlife becoming caught up in the netting once it becomes exposed and is something that is simply not needed. The plastic netting itself never actually goes away, it just breaks down into smaller and smaller microplastic particles, polluting our soil and releasing the chemicals contained in it.'

This was submitted by Bleddyn Lake with 1,527 signatures. Could I invite Vaughan to take us through this, please?

Thank you. Just to be clear, we're talking about plastic netting in real turf, as it were, as opposed to plastic grass. The two things are very different. In response, the Deputy First Minister has noted that the Welsh Government is reviewing its natural resources policy before the end of this Senedd term, and this will be one of the issues that will contribute to that review. So, it's not legislative action, but actually in terms of a policy direction, it is the sort of thing that could make a difference practically. The petitioner also notes that the Turfgrass Growers Association—something I did not know existed—is going to implement a voluntary ban on this practice from October next year.

So, there is practical action being taken, and I'm not persuaded that maintaining the petition would either make the Government act faster or in a way that is considered, but I do think it is one thing again raising an issue that we might not have seen otherwise. It's part of what the Deputy First Minister said he'll take account of in restating the natural resources policy before the end of this Senedd term, and I'm sure that will be subject to scrutiny, both in the Chamber and in the relevant committee as well. So, I think that we should close the petition, noting that if they're unsatisfied with the natural resources policy position that's set out, there will be an election and there will be an opportunity with the new Senedd to restart the issue, if they wish to do so, ahead of the October 2026 ban that is due to come into force.

And get it in those manifestos.

There will be lots in lots of manifestos, I'm sure. It'll make for very interesting reading.

Yes. Again, I read in the pack that it's an issue with wildlife as well, with hedgehogs getting caught in it. We have lots of discussions and debates regarding plastic netting and plastic grass. So, I think that it's something that will come back time and time again for debate and discussion. But we've agreed to close the petition. Okay? Is everybody in agreement? Okay. I'd just like to thank the petitioner for highlighting it, though, because that's what the petition process is about as well, so keep highlighting these issues. 

Moving on to item 2.9, petition P-06-1545, 'Stop forcing school children to undress in front of staff/peers in "open" communal rooms.' It reads:

'Children in secondary education deserve privacy and safety, and not to feel forced to undress in front of peers/staff in an open communal changing room for a compulsory subject (although separated by gender currently). In a world where children are being empowered to be themselves to explore genders, rights, equality and inclusion, some comprehensive schools P.E changing facilities offer little to no privacy /dignity and that's a massive safeguarding concern.'

That was submitted by Louise Phillips, with 1,281 signatures. Luke, would you discuss the petition?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I can see that the petitioner has given a number of comments, questions and recommendations. Could I suggest that we send that to the relevant Cabinet Secretary and get a response to those comments, questions and recommendations, and that we keep the petition open until we get a response?

Okay. Is everybody in agreement with that? Okay. So, we will write to the relevant Cabinet Secretary regarding this and keep it open until we receive a response. Thank you. 

Item 2.10, P-06-1546, 'Welsh Government should fund the Llanbedr relief road!'

'The Llanbedr relief road was cancelled by Welsh Government, who then promised Llanbedr a replacement. Now that plans are being finalised we call upon Welsh Government to fund the promised replacement road. The community itself lives in fear, the transport situation for tourists is dire, and the solution we had was swept aside by you. We, the community of Llanbedr, visitors to Llanbedr, and those who travel through, petition you to take responsibility and fund the road.'

This was submitted by Karl Ciz, with 1,271 signatures. Could I invite Joel to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Yes, thank you, Chair. Obviously, this is another victim of the Welsh Government, really, the bypass—not that I want to make a political statement, actually. But I understand that there is a study being conducted to see what options are available and maybe we should wait to see what the outcome of that study is before doing anything more, I think.

Okay. So, whilst the Welsh Government has funded a study—. I thought it had been completed.

It's in the autumn, I think, that it's meant to be completed. 

In the autumn. Okay. I was reading in the pack that local transport funding is being devolved to the corporate joint committees. So, the Welsh Government are responsible for the strategic road network, like trunk roads, but this doesn't fall under that. It falls under the local road network. So, I've read that if all of those transport grants are devolved to the CJC, there should be quite a lot of money there, a lot more money, £135 million going to north Wales, maybe, over five years, for them to move forward with it. 

My view is that we should thank the petitioner and close. Once that study has been provided in the autumn, it's very hard to see how there'll then be a funding of this individual road scheme before the transport grant is devolved to CJCs to agree a north Wales set of priorities. Part of the point of doing that was that you can take a view over a larger network of those authorities that have responsibility within it. Part of the issue, I think, is the thing about, 'What does devolution mean?'; it doesn't mean a Minister who has an office in Cardiff Bay makes all those choices. I think this is actually a better answer. And I think the Minister for north Wales might want to keep it to himself, and, actually, I think it's the right thing to have done for each CJC, to have the flexibility to do this. By the time you get the business case, by the time there's the study of the options, to then develop a proper business case for that, we'll be into the next Senedd anyway. So, I don't think this Senedd term is going to see a final decision made on it. If we wait for the study to come back, we'll write another letter, or we could wait for the study to come back and then write to north Wales CJC and the Minister can say, 'It's up to you', but I'm not sure we'll do much more than that, because the study is already in train and they'll have to think about the choices they make after that.

I just want to make sure we've got the correct pathway in place, basically, as well, and, before, the transport grants were held centrally and they were restrictive as well, so they were for certain elements, whereas, this way, the significant funding, that's just being passed to the CJCs for them to use how they want, and it's a lot more money than they had before.

So, we could wait, as a way of managing this, to see what the outcome is, and then make sure that the petitioner is given the right pathway and told that the local transport grants will be devolved to CJCs and then it will be up to the petitioner then to petition the local authorities who will be making those decisions on their plan of investment. Yes? Okay.

If that's the view of the majority of the committee, then so be it. 

Okay. We'll carry on with that.

I'm not going to fall out with anyone over it. [Laughter.]

But thank you, thank you for your input.

Item 2.11, petition P-06-1547, 'Sea bottom trawling is killing our marine wildlife...Stop bulldozing our marine wildlife!'

'Sir David Attenborough's latest documentary, Oceans, highlights the fact that a shocking 97 per cent of our marine protected areas (MPA), created to safeguard ocean habitats, are being destroyed by being dredged and bottom trawled. We call on the Welsh Government to ban all forms of bottom trawling by both foreign and UK vessels in Welsh waters. We are in an ecological emergency and need action now.'

So, this has been submitted by Robert Curtis, with 297 signatures. Could I invite Rhys to take us through this?

The Cabinet Secretary mentions fishing management plans and that he intends to use those to manage this particular issue. We are told that the plan is due to be published this year. I'm not quite sure when—there's not much of the year left for it to be published—but it would be useful to know what engagement stakeholders, including the petitioner and other environmental and animal welfare activists have had in the drafting of the plan, which is soon to be published.

Okay, that's a good point. I watched the film, and I was really shocked by it. So, as well as releasing the carbon and being a possible cause of acidification of the sea, seeing all the sea creatures just scooped up, and 75 per cent of those are just classed as waste, and what was left behind was just sheer devastation—nothing, basically. But where zones are created for them to regenerate, it happens quite quickly, and then the outer areas were then available for fishing again. So, it was a very moving film.

Okay, so it's been suggested we ask the petitioner what engagement have they had regarding the fishing management plans that the Cabinet Secretary has set out. And we'll keep it open for now. I think it's something that's been recently highlighted in that film, and just relevant. So, we could do that, going forward. Okay.

That leads us now on to updates to previous petitions. Item 3.1, petition P-06-1288, 'Deliver Magor and Undy Walkway Station, part of the Burns Delivery Programme, as a quick win'. This was submitted by Paul Turner, with 547 signatures. Vaughan, can you discuss the petition and take us through anything you wish committee to do?

Yes, we've had a number of conversations about alternatives to the M4 and the Burns commission and the alternative network that he proposed. We've recently, in the last few months, had more funding announcements made. The physical network is the responsibility of Network Rail and the UK Government. There's more money that's been announced to help deliver the Burns plans, of which this is one.

I don't think, more than three years after a petition has come in, we could call it a 'quick win', necessarily, but there does appear to be funding that's now available. It seems to me that, given that Burns is moving into a delivery phase now, with money having been identified, you need to go through the practical points for that, the business plan, the planning permission and to get on and actually do it. I don't think maintaining the petition itself will assist with that.

Again, I'm sure, given the time frame that we're in, there'll be plenty of commitments in a variety of manifestos ahead of next May for what to do about the Burns stations, how to fund them and what to do. So, I think this petition can be closed, to thank the petitioner for their sustained interest and to look forward to, hopefully, the Burns network actually being delivered.

Yes, that would be good. Okay, anybody else like to come in? Okay, thank you very much. So, we'll close the petition—well, thank the petitioner, and then close it.

Item 3.2, petition P-06-1357, 'Microplastics Action Plan for Wales'. This was submitted by Friends of the Earth Cymru, with 3,258 signatures. Could I invite Luke to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I know the petitioners have been very active on this, and the Deputy First Minister has praised their activity on this. Just in terms of where we stand as a Petitions Committee, though, I think we've come to the end of the road with this petition. So, I would suggest that we thank the petitioner and close the petition. I'm just struggling to see where we can take it now as a Petitions Committee, especially given how much time is left before the Senedd breaks up.

Okay. Would anybody else like to come in on this? Rhys, you asked a question as well, didn't you, in the Senedd on this? So, again, it's another petition that has been really useful in highlighting the issue with us. So, we'll thank the petitioner and close it, close the petition. Okay, is everybody in agreement? Yes, thank you.

Moving on, item 3.3, petition P-06-1378, 'We want farm subsidies to be extended to small scale and market gardeners'. This was submitted by Karen Schneider, with 413 signatures. So, could I invite Rhys to discuss the petition and any action you wish the committee to take?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I would like to think this is another success story for this committee. Due to correspondence between this committee and the Cabinet Secretary, representatives from the horticultural sector were included in the stakeholder group that was part of looking at the scheme. The scheme has now been published, and there are many references to small-scale and market gardeners in that scheme. So, I'd like to just congratulate the petitioner for raising this issue, for securing it to be mentioned in the scheme, and then to close the petition.

Okay, is everybody in agreement? Yes. I agree with the report; it's really good, it's been successful. So, it does extend to horticultural small-scale and market gardeners. To qualify, they have to prove a minimum of 550 hours of labour worked, which is fine. Okay, so we'll close that petition, thank you.

Item 3.4, petition P-06-1505, 'Review the Carr Hill Formula in Wales—the funding system for primary care.' That was submitted by Dr Matthew Jones, with 718 signatures. Okay, could I invite Luke to discuss the petition?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. The Health and Social Care Committee are undertaking an inquiry at the moment; I think that's due to report in the new year. So, in terms of this petition now, I don't think there's much more we can do as a Petitions Committee, so I would suggest that we thank the petitioner and close the petition, and, of course, highlight that the Health and Social Care Committee is doing an inquiry and signpost them to that inquiry if there are any other questions or comments. That could actually be quite helpful for the committee as they undertake the inquiry.

Okay, thank you. Is everyone in agreement? Okay, thank you.

We move on to item 3.5, petition P-06-1530, 'Save Childcare Provision in Wales—Demand Fair Funding and a Fair Process for Providers and Parent'. This was submitted by Lisa Owen, with 1,914 signatures. Coud I ask Vaughan to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take?

Thank you. The Welsh Government has raised the rate from where it's been previously up to £6.40 an hour, but there are still concerns and representations about the rate at which childcare should be paid, which is different to the level of support that parents might have for paying for childcare directly themselves. It appears that there's a straightforward disagreement between the Minister, who's provided a lengthy response, and the petitioner. The petitioner also says that CWLWM, which is the consortium of five childcare providers that is normally recognised as the main voice of the sector—the petitioner says that that consortium isn't representing the voice of the sector. There's a straightforward disagreement about that.

It seems to me that I don't think that this this committee can take it any further forward, because the engagement and the decision making that is for the Government to undertake and the scrutiny function, I think, are outside where we could take the petition. I'm also, again, convinced that funding of the sector and what it means for parents will be a key issue in lots of manifestos going before the public. But it does seem sensible to share the latest correspondence with the Minister and suggest that the Government engages directly with her, to copy in the lead scrutiny committee for their awareness, because they may well undertake some scrutiny before the end of the Senedd term, and to thank the petitioner for raising the issue with us and then to close it.

Okay, thank you. Is everybody in agreement? I was part of the Equality and Social Justice Committee when we did the inquiry into childcare. So, if we write to ESJ and the Minister and then close the petition. As Vaughan said, I think it will be a hot manifesto one again, seeing what's happened across the border—so, really, really important; I'd like to thank the petitioner.

So, if we move on now to papers to note. Are you happy to note the papers? Okay. Thank you.

That concludes the public business today. So, I propose that, in accordance with Standing Order 17.42, the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting. The next meeting will be 20 October 2025. Are you happy to move into private? Okay, thank you.