Y Pwyllgor Plant, Pobl Ifanc ac Addysg
Children, Young People and Education Committee
26/09/2024Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol
Committee Members in Attendance
| Buffy Williams | Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor |
| Committee Chair | |
| Cefin Campbell | |
| Gareth Davies | |
| Lee Waters | yn dirprwyo ar ran Hefin David |
| substitute for Hefin David | |
| Tom Giffard | |
| Vaughan Gething | |
Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol
Others in Attendance
| Angharad Morgan | Rheolwr Polisi, Mudiad Meithrin |
| Policy Manager, Mudiad Meithrin | |
| Dr Gwenllian Lansdown Davies | Prif Weithredwr, Mudiad Meithrin |
| Chief Executive, Mudiad Meithrin | |
| Dr Gwennan Schiavone | Prif Swyddog Gweithredol, Y Gymdeithas Ysgolion dros Addysg Gymraeg (CYDAG) |
| Chief Executive Officer, CYDAG | |
| Efa Gruffudd Jones | Comisiynydd y Gymraeg |
| Welsh Language Commissioner | |
| Heini Gruffudd | Cadeirydd, Dyfodol i’r Iaith |
| Chair, Dyfodol i’r Iaith | |
| Myfanwy Jones | Cyfarwyddwr, Mentrau Iaith Cymru |
| Director, Mentrau Iaith Cymru | |
| Osian Rhys | Aelod, Grŵp Addysg Cymdeithas yr Iaith |
| Member, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Education Group | |
| Professor Enlli Thomas | Dirprwy Is-ganghellor a Phennaeth Coleg y Celfyddydau, y Dyniaethau a'r Gwyddorau Cymdeithasol, Prifysgol Bangor |
| Pro Vice-chancellor and Head of College of Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences, Bangor University | |
| Professor Gwenno Ffrancon | Dirprwy Is-ganghellor Cynorthwyol y Gymraeg, Treftadaeth a Diwylliant a Chyfarwyddwr Academi Hywel Teifi, Prifysgol Abertawe |
| Deputy Pro Vice-chancellor Welsh Language, Heritage and Culture and Director Academi Hywel Teifi, Swansea University | |
| Toni Schiavone | Cadeirydd, Grŵp Addysg Cymdeithas yr Iaith |
| Chair, Cymdeithas yr Iaith Education Group |
Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol
Senedd Officials in Attendance
| Jennifer Cottle | Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol |
| Legal Adviser | |
| Manon Huws | Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol |
| Legal Adviser | |
| Naomi Stocks | Clerc |
| Clerk | |
| Osian Bowyer | Ymchwilydd |
| Researcher | |
| Sarah Bartlett | Dirprwy Glerc |
| Deputy Clerk | |
| Tom Lewis-White | Ail Glerc |
| Second Clerk |
Cynnwys
Contents
Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.
The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.
Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor yn y Senedd a thrwy gynhadledd fideo.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:17.
The committee met in the Senedd and by video-conference.
The meeting began at 09:17
I would like to welcome Members to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We have received apologies from Hefin David MS. Lee Waters MS will be substituting for items 1 to 6. Welcome, Lee. Vaughan Gething MS will be joining us for item 7 onwards. I would like to take this opportunity to place on record my thanks to Jack Sargeant MS for his work on this committee. We wish him the very best of luck in his new role. The public items of this meeting are being broadcast live on Senedd.tv. A Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. The meeting is bilingual and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Are there any declarations of interest from Members?
Os caf i, Gadeirydd, fel rŷch chi’n gwybod, fel Aelod dynodedig yn flaenorol, fe fues i’n gweithio’n agos iawn gyda’r Gweinidog addysg ar y pryd ar ddatblygu rhan helaeth o’r Bil yma, ond dim popeth sydd ynddo fe. Diolch.
If I may, Chair, as you know, as the designated Member previously, I worked very closely with the then Minister for education on developing of a large part of this Bill, but not everything contained within it. Thank you.
Thank you.
Cynnig:
bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o eitemau 3 a 9 y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(ix).
Motion:
that the committee resolves to exclude the public from items 3 and 9 of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix).
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
Moving on to item 2, I propose in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(ix) that the committee resolves to meet in private for items 3 and 9 of the meeting. Are Members content? We will now proceed in private for item 3.
Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 09:18.
Motion agreed.
The public part of the meeting ended at 09:18.
Ailymgynullodd y pwyllgor yn gyhoeddus am 09:31.
The committee reconvened in public at 09:31.
We move on now to agenda item 4. This is the second evidence session on the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill. Please can you introduce yourself, Commissioner, and also outline briefly what, if any, involvement you have had in the development of the Bill?
Bore da. Efa Gruffudd Jones, Comisiynydd y Gymraeg. O ran ymwneud â datblygu’r Bil, dwi a fy swyddogion wedi ymateb i’r Papur Gwyn ac wedi cynnal rhai trafodaethau gyda swyddogion Llywodraeth Cymru yn ystod y broses o ddatblygu’r gwaith polisi.
Good morning. I’m Efa Gruffudd Jones, I’m the Welsh Language Commissioner. In terms of developing the Bill, my officials and I have responded to the White Paper and we have held some discussions with Welsh Government officials during the process of developing the policy work.
Thank you. I’ll now ask Members to ask questions, and I’ll begin. Could you outline your initial thoughts on the Bill and the extent to which it will support the work and progress required to achieve the 'Cymraeg 2050' target of 1 million Welsh speakers?
Diolch yn fawr. Y peth cyntaf hoffwn i ddweud yw fy mod i’n croesawu’n fawr y ffaith fod Llywodraeth Cymru am ddeddfu yn y maes yma. Dwi’n meddwl ei fod e’n ddatblygiad cyffrous ac yn un hollbwysig. Rydyn ni’n gwybod yn dda am dargedau a strategaeth 'Cymraeg 2050', ond os ydyn ni’n edrych ar sut mae addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, er enghraifft, wedi datblygu dros y ddegawd ddiwethaf, rydyn ni angen gwneud rhywbeth yn wahanol o hyn ymlaen os ydyn ni wir am gyflawni’r uchelgais hwnnw. Felly, dwi’n meddwl ei fod e’n gyffrous iawn. Dwi’n meddwl bod pethau arbennig o ddiddorol yn y Ddeddf—defnyddio cod ar gyfer disgrifio gallu ieithyddol, ac yn y blaen, gan ddilyn arfer dda o wledydd eraill. Felly, yn gyffredinol, dwi’n croesawu’n fawr y datblygiad yma, ond mae gyda fi, wrth gwrs, fel y byddech chi’n disgwyl, efallai, rhai sylwadau dwi’n edrych ymlaen at rannu gyda chi heddiw.
Thank you very much. The first thing I'd like to say is that I very much welcome the fact that the Welsh Government are legislating in this area. I think it's an exciting development and a vital one. We know very well about the targets of the 'Cymraeg 2050' strategy, but if we look at how Welsh-medium education, for example, has developed over the last decade, we need to do something differently from now on if we really want to achieve the ambition of 'Cymraeg 2050'. So, I think it's very exciting. I think that there are very interesting things in the Bill—using a code for describing linguistic ability, and so forth, following good practice from other countries. Therefore, in general, I very much welcome this development, but, of course, as you would expect, perhaps, I do have some issues that I’d like to share with you today.
Thank you. The Bill makes the target of 1 million Welsh speakers a statutory target. What is the value of placing the target on the statute book, and how will it affect your work and role?
Dwi’n croesawu’r ffaith bod y Ddeddf yma yn mynd i roi gofynion ychwanegol i’r hyn sydd yn Neddf 2006. Dwi’n meddwl ei fod e’n bwysig yn symbolaidd y bydd y targedau yn cael eu rhoi ar flaen Deddf mewn deddfwriaeth. Fodd bynnag, rydyn ni’n gwybod bod angen gwneud mwy na gosod mewn Deddf er mwyn cyflawni. Serch hynny, dwi’n meddwl ei fod e’n bwysig iawn, yn enwedig o ystyried rhychwant amser, na fydd ein dyheadau ni ar hyn o bryd ddim yn gallu cael eu lleihau a’u glastwreiddio wrth i amser fynd yn ei flaen. Felly, dwi’n croesawu’n fawr y ffaith bod y targed yn bwriadu cael ei osod ar flaen o Bil.
O ran fy ngwaith i a fy rôl i, y prif waith dwi’n gyfrifol amdano fe yw cynyddu’r cyfleoedd i bobl ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg. Dwi’n gweithio gyda chyrff cyhoeddus ac yn gosod safonau’r Gymraeg arnyn nhw fel eu bod nhw’n cynyddu’r cyfleoedd sydd i bobl ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg. Felly, mae’n bwysig iawn i fi fod yna sylw i ddefnyddio’r Gymraeg yn y Ddeddf hefyd. Mae yna gysylltiad hefyd rhwng fy ngwaith i a’r Ddeddf yn yr ystyr os na chawn ni fwy o bobl yn dod drwy'r system addysg yn siarad Cymraeg, ni fydd yna neb i ddefnyddio'r gwasanaethau maes o law.
Mae yna feysydd gwaith sydd o fewn cwmpas fy nylanwad i, ac mae gyda fi ddiddordeb penodol ynddyn nhw, sy'n cyd-fynd â'r hyn sydd yn cael ei gynnig yn y ddeddfwriaeth, er enghraifft datblygu'r Gymraeg yn y gweithle, a'r ffaith ein bod ni'n gobeithio y bydd pobl ifanc nawr ac yn y dyfodol yn gallu defnyddio'u Cymraeg nhw yn eu bywyd gwaith nhw ar ôl iddyn nhw orffen eu cyfnod yn yr ysgol. Felly, yn gyffredinol, dwi'n meddwl bod y Ddeddf yn berthnasol i fy ngwaith i, ac fe ddylai canlyniadau'r Ddeddf hwyluso fy ngwaith i o sicrhau mwy o gyfleoedd i bobl ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg yn eu bywydau bob dydd.
I welcome the fact that the Bill is going to place additional requirements on what is in the 2006 Act. I think that it is important symbolically that targets will be set on the face of the Bill in legislation. However, we know that there is a need to do more than just setting in legislation to achieve. However, I think it's very important, given the range of time, that our aspirations currently are not reduced or diluted as time progresses. So, I very much welcome the fact that the target intends to be set on the face of the Bill.
In terms of my work and my role, the main work that I'm responsible for is increasing the opportunities for people to use the Welsh language. I work with public bodies and set Welsh language standards so that they increase the opportunities available for people to use the Welsh language. So, it’s very important to me that attention is given in the Bill to the use of the language. There is also a link between my work and the legislation in terms of if we don't have more people coming through the education system speaking Welsh, there will be nobody available to use the services in due course.
There are areas within the scope of my influence, and that I have specific interest in, that align with what is being proposed in the legislation, for example developing Welsh in the workplace, and the fact that we hope that young people now and in the future will be able to use their Welsh in their work life after they've finished their time in school. So, in general, I do think that the legislation is relevant to my work, and that the outcomes should facilitate the work that I do in ensuring more opportunities for people to use the Welsh language in their everyday lives.
Thank you. There is a duty in the Bill for the Welsh Ministers to publish an analysis of the situation of the Welsh language in Wales once every five years. Does this not replicate the statutory duty placed on you to publish five-year reports on the position of the Welsh language, risking duplication?
Roedd diddordeb mawr gyda fi i weld bod hyn wedi'i awgrymu yn y Ddeddf. Yn fy marn i, mae'r ddau adroddiad yn bethau gwahanol iawn. Mae'r gofyniad yn y Ddeddf ar Weinidogion i adrodd ar ddefnydd ac ar y maes addysg, lle mae'n glir iawn imi fod fy adroddiad i'n un annibynnol sydd yn edrych ar ystod o feysydd polisi. Gallaf i sôn am iechyd a gofal, darlledu, busnesau, elusennau, yn ogystal ag addysg, lle dwi'n gweld bod yr adroddiad yma'n mynd i ganolbwyntio'n naturiol fwyfwy ar addysg, a dylanwad hwnnw. Yn fy marn i, maen nhw'n bethau gwahanol. Dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig imi gynnal trafodaethau gyda Llywodraeth Cymru i sicrhau bod dim dyblygu, ond dwi ddim yn eu gweld nhw'n gwrthdaro â'i gilydd mewn unrhyw ffordd. Y mwyaf o wybodaeth sydd gyda ni am sefyllfa'r Gymraeg, y gorau yw hynny. A hefyd, yn fy marn i, mae gan Lywodraeth Cymru fwy o gapasiti o ran cynnal gwaith ymchwil, ac arbenigedd, na sydd gyda fi, felly dwi ddim yn gweld problem gyda chael dau fath o adroddiad.
I was very interested to see that this had been suggested in the Bill. In my view, both reports are very different things. The requirement in the legislation is on Ministers to report on usage and education, whereas it's very clear to me that my report is an independent report that looks at a range of policy areas. I can cover health and care, broadcasting, business, charities, as well as education, whereas I see that the report in the Bill will naturally focus more on education and its influence. In my view, they are different things. I think it's important that I do have discussions with the Welsh Government to ensure that there is no duplication, but I don't see them as conflicting with each other in any way whatsoever. The more information we have on the situation of the Welsh language, the better. In my view, the Welsh Government has more capacity in terms of conducting research, and has more expertise than my office has, so I don't see any problem with having two kinds of reports.
Thank you. Should the provisions in section 3 of the Bill regarding data collection on the number of Welsh speakers be expanded to include calculating use of Welsh, and does the commissioner have views on the process for collecting such data?
Dwi'n croesawu'r ffaith bod adran 1 y Ddeddf yn nodi targedau statudol am ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg. Mae mesur defnydd iaith yn rhywbeth mwy anodd na chyfrifo nifer, ond dwi'n croesawu unrhyw ymdrech i drio gwneud hynny. Mae'n haws casglu niferoedd, onid yw hi? Mae gyda ni ganlyniadau'r cyfrifiad; mae gyda ni arolygon eraill. O ran defnydd iaith, mae gyda ni arolwg defnydd iaith ar hyn o bryd, sydd wedi bod yn cael ei gynnal bob ryw pum i chwe blynedd, ond byddwn i'n croesawu ymrwymiad cadarnach i gynnal hwnnw'n fwy rheolaidd, neu fod cytundeb hirdymor iddo fe gael ei gyflwyno'n fwy systematig, a byddwn i'n croesawu bod yn rhan o'r gwaith hwnnw.
Dwi'n ymwybodol bod Llywodraeth Cymru yn cynnal arolwg o'r enw Prosiect BRO ar hyn o bryd. Dwi'n meddwl y bydd y math yna o waith dadansoddi o ran defnydd yn bwysig i ni i gyd sy'n gweithio yn y maes iaith. Felly, dwi'n croesawu'r symudiad i geisio cyfrifo defnydd iaith. Mae yna ddau darged, fel rŷn ni'n gwybod yn dda, yn y strategaeth, beth bynnag—un o ran niferoedd, ac un o ran defnyddio. Ac rŷn ni eisiau dysgu a siarad Cymraeg er mwyn ei defnyddio hi, onid ydyn ni?
I welcome the fact that section 1 of the Bill notes statutory targets on language use. Measuring the use of the language is more difficult than counting the numbers of speakers, but I welcome any attempt to seek to do that. It's easier to collect numbers, isn't it? We have the census results; we have other survey data available. In terms of language use, we have a language use survey at the moment, which has been held every five to six years, but I would welcome a firmer commitment to hold that more regularly, or that there should be a long-term agreement that it would be brought forward in a more systematic manner, and I would welcome being part of that work.
I am aware that the Welsh Government is undertaking a survey entitled Prosiect BRO at the moment. I think that kind of analytical work in terms of language usage will be important to all of us working in this area. So, I welcome the move to seek to focus on language usage. There are two targets, as we well know, in the strategy—one in terms of numbers, and one in terms of use. And we want to learn Welsh and speak Welsh in order to use it, don't we?
Thank you. Could you expand on the proposals in the Bill to review the Welsh language standards? How this might impact your work?
Dyma rywbeth dwi'n ei groesawu unwaith eto sy'n cael ei gynnig. Fel eglurais i ar y dechrau, dwi eisiau pobl i ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg. Dwi hefyd yn croesawu'n fawr y ffaith ein bod ni'n trio sicrhau bod deddfwriaeth a mesurau sy'n ymwneud â'r Gymraeg yn siarad â'i gilydd. Felly, dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n synhwyrol iawn bod yna gynigion yn y Ddeddf i ailedrych ar rai o'r safonau y byddaf i wedyn yn gallu eu rheoleiddio.
O ran y gwaith sy'n cael ei gynnig, mae yn cyd-fynd yn llwyr â'r blaenoriaethau dwi wedi eu gosod yn y bron i ddwy flynedd diwethaf, sef gweithio ar safonau sydd yn ymwneud â'r gweithlu a gweithleoedd, a sut gall pobl siarad mwy o Gymraeg mewn gweithleoedd. Fe fydd ystyried cod iaith a disgrifiadau iaith yn gallu gwneud y safonau yna yn fwy effeithiol
O ran safonau hybu'r Gymraeg, unwaith eto, mae hyn yn faes o flaenoriaeth i fi. Mae yna safon ar hyn o bryd o ran hybu'r Gymraeg, ond byddwn i'n croesawu gweld hynny yn cael ei chryfhau. Felly, o'm rhan i, mae'r bwriad i ddatblygu'r safonau yna yn cyd-fynd â'r blaenoriaethau sydd gyda fi yn barod, a dwi'n edrych ymlaen at gyfrannu at y gwaith hwnnw.
This is something that I welcome once again in terms of what is being proposed. As I explained at the beginning, I want people to use the Welsh language. I also welcome very much the fact that we are trying to ensure that legislation and measures relating to the Welsh language speak to each other. So I think it's very sensible that there are proposals in the legislation to look again at some of the standards that I will then be able to regulate.
In terms of the work that's being proposed, it aligns completely with the priorities that I have set in the last year or two, namely working on standards that relate to the workforce and workplaces and how people can speak more Welsh in workplaces. Considering a language code and language descriptions would be able to make those standards more effective.
In terms of standards relating to the promotion of Welsh, again, this is a priority area for me. There are standards in terms of promoting the Welsh language, but I would welcome those being strengthened. So from my part, the intention to develop those standards aligns with the priorities that I have already, and I'm looking forward to contributing to that work.
Thank you. Cefin.
Diolch. Os caf i ddod mewn ar gefn y cwestiwn olaf ar safonau iaith—a diolch yn fawr i chi am y dystiolaeth rŷch chi wedi'i chyflwyno; mae'n hynod o ddefnyddiol i ni fel pwyllgor—ydych chi yn gweld ffordd y gall dylanwad y safonau iaith, sydd â grym deddfwriaethol, wrth gwrs, ymestyn i ysgolion unigol? Sut mae modd i chi fel comisiynydd ddylanwadu ar ddatblygu sgiliau iaith y gweithlu, a hefyd hyrwyddo—rŷch chi'n sôn am hybu a hyrwyddo—y defnydd o'r Gymraeg y tu allan i'r dosbarth hefyd?
Thank you. If I could come in on the back of that last question on language standards—and thank you for the evidence that you've submitted; it's very useful to us as a committee—do you see any way in which the influence of language standards, which do have legislative force, of course, could extend to individual schools? How could you as commissioner influence the language skills development of the workforce and also promote the use of the Welsh language outside the classroom too?
Roedd nifer o gwestiynau yn fanna. Gwnaf drio delio â nhw yn eu tro. O ran ysgolion unigol, dwi ddim yn meddwl y byddai fe'n ymarferol i ni osod safonau'r Gymraeg ar bob corff llywodraethu, er enghraifft, er y byddai fe'n dechnegol bosibl. Felly, dwi'n gweld beth sy'n cael ei awgrymu yn y Bil o ran cynlluniau cyflawni yn fwy effeithiol neu yn fwy ymarferol na chyflwyno safonau'r Gymraeg arnyn nhw. Fodd bynnag, mae yna gyrff sy'n ymwneud â datblygu'r gweithlu a chofrestru a'r gweithle y gall safonau ddylanwadu arnyn nhw.
Yn gyffredinol, dwi'n gweld yn fy ngwaith bod safonau'r Gymraeg yn arwain at fwy o gyfleoedd i bobl ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg. Yn sicr, o ran plant a phobl ifanc y tu allan i'r dosbarth, dyw e ddim yn syml. Os ŷn ni'n meddwl am weithgareddau ieuenctid mewn cynghorau sir, er enghraifft, dyw'r safonau ddim yn golygu bod angen i'w darpariaeth nhw fod yn ddarpariaeth Gymraeg. Fodd bynnag, dwi'n gweld cyfle inni gryfhau'r safonau hybu fel bod mwy o wasanaethau i blant a phobl ifanc ar gael yn Gymraeg, sydd, yn ôl llythyren y safon ar hyn o bryd, ddim yn bosib i ni orfodi.
Eleni, rŷn ni'n bwriadu rhoi sylw penodol i'r safon hybu sydd ar awdurdodau lleol a pharciau cenedlaethol. Ond dyw'r safon ar hyn o bryd, yn fy marn i, ddim yn rhoi digon o bwerau i fi i wthio mor bell ag y gallwn i, er fy mod i'n awyddus iawn i gydweithio â'r cyrff yma i roi hyfforddiant iddyn nhw a'u hannog nhw i feddwl yn holistig am y Gymraeg, ac i beidio cadw at y safon yn unig. Ond mae'n rhaid i fi, ar hyn o bryd, wneud hynny drwy argyhoeddi a pherswâd yn hytrach na grym y gyfraith, sydd wrth gwrs yn dechneg effeithiol, yn gallu bod, hefyd, ond mae'n ffordd dwi am i'n sefydliad symud tuag ati hi, sef annog a chynorthwyo, ond os yw'r safon mor gryf ag y gallai fod, mae hynny yn fy nghynorthwyo i. Felly, dwi wastad yn chwilio am ffyrdd i ddefnyddio'r safonau a'r pwerau sydd gyda fi i gynnig a datblygu mwy o gyfleoedd i bobl allu defnyddio'r Gymraeg yn hwylus.
There were a number of questions there. I'll try and deal with them in turn. In terms of individual schools, I don't think it would be practical for us to set Welsh language standards on every governing body, for example, even though it would be technically possible. So I see that what's been proposed in the Bill in terms of delivery plans is more effective or more practical than placing standards on them. However, there are bodies relating to developing the workforce, registration and looking at workplaces, and standards could influence them.
In general, I see in my work that Welsh language standards do lead to more opportunities for people to use the Welsh language. Certainly in terms of children and young people outside the classroom, it's not simple. If we think of youth activities in county councils, for example, the standards do not mean that there is a need for that provision to be a Welsh-medium provision. However, I see an opportunity for us to strengthen the standards in terms of promotion so that more services for children and young people are available through the medium of Welsh, which, according to the letter of the standard at the moment, is not possible for us to enforce.
This year, we intend to give specific attention to the promotion standard on local authorities and national parks. But that standard currently, in my view, doesn't provide enough powers for me to push as much as I would like, even though I'm very keen to work with these bodies to provide them with training and to encourage them to think holistically about the Welsh language, and not just to stick to the standard itself. But currently I have to do that through encouragement and persuasion rather than using legislation, which of course is an effective technique, but it's a way that I'd like my organisation to move towards, which is to encourage and support, but if the standard is as strong as it could be, then that would assist me. But I'm always looking at ways of using the standards and the powers that I have to develop more opportunities for people to use the language easily.
Thank you. We now move on to questions from Cefin.
Nesaf, mae gyda fi floc o gwestiynau o gwmpas y CEFR, y fframwaith Ewropeaidd. Rŷch chi wedi nodi yn eich tystiolaeth sylwadau ynglŷn â hynny. Ydych chi'n meddwl bod y CEFR yn gyffredinol yn gweddu ar gyfer sefyllfa Cymru? Achos mae e wedi ei waelodi yn nhrefn addysg Ewrop ers blynyddoedd lawer, ond mae'n rhywbeth newydd i ni.
I have a block of questions around the CEFR, the common European framework of reference. You've noted in your evidence some comments on that. Do you believe that the CEFR in general terms is appropriate for the situation here in Wales? Because it has been a part of the European education system for a while, but it's new for us.
Gan ddatgan diddordeb oherwydd fy rôl flaenorol, lle roeddwn i'n gweithio i'r Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol, dwi yn gyfarwydd â'r CEFR oherwydd bod y cwricwlwm a'r deunyddiau dysgu i gyd ym maes Cymraeg i oedolion wedi eu seilio ar y CEFR ers blynyddoedd. Felly, dwi'n deall y cysyniad a dwi yn meddwl y byddai modd ei gymhwyso fe i'r sector addysg. Dwi'n gwybod, eto trwy fy ngwaith blaenorol, fod modd creu deunyddiau ac adnoddau hyfryd i gyd-fynd ac i hwyluso a chefnogi'r broses ddysgu, ac mae hynny ar hyn o bryd yng Nghymru yn wir yn y sector oedolion, ond nid yn y sector ysgolion. Felly, y man cychwyn yw sefydlu'r cod o ddisgrifio, a dwi'n meddwl bod seilio hwnnw ar y CEFR yn syniad da. Mae e'n ddull sydd wedi ei dderbyn.
Mae yna waith i'w wneud i sicrhau ei fod e'n gymwys i Gymru o ran—. Hynny yw, allwch chi ddim jest ei ddefnyddio fe yn union fel mae e. Dwi'n siŵr bod yna waith yn mynd i ddigwydd i'w gymhwyso fe ar gyfer plant a phobl ifanc, ond, yn fy marn i, dwi'n croesawu'n fawr y symudiad i ddefnyddio'r CEFR fel sail i ddisgrifio gallu a mesur datblygiad ieithyddol plant a phobl ifanc.
Declaring an interest in terms of my previous role, where I worked for the National Centre for Learning Welsh, I am familiar with CEFR because the curriculum and the teaching resources in the area of Welsh for adults are based on the CEFR system, and have been so for years. So, I understand the concept and I do think that there would be a way of applying it to the education sector. I also know through my previous work that you can create resources and lovely materials that go with and facilitate and support the process of teaching, and that is currently true in Wales in the adult sector, but not in the school sector. So, the starting point is establishing the code of description, and I think that basing that on CEFR is a good idea. It's a method that's been accepted.
There is work to be done to ensure that it is suitable for Wales—. You can't just use it exactly as it is. I'm sure that work is going to happen to make it suitable and applicable to children and young people, but, in my view, I very much welcome the move to use the CEFR as a basis for describing the ability and a means of measuring the linguistic development of children and young people.
Digwydd bod, yn y sesiwn wythnos diwethaf mi wnaeth yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet sy'n gyfrifol am y Gymraeg ddweud bron â bod fod pawb yn gallu siarad rhywfaint o Gymraeg yng Nghymru, oni bai eu bod nhw newydd gyrraedd yma. Felly, ydych chi'n meddwl bod y CEFR yn gallu adlewyrchu'r ystod eang yna o bobl sydd ag ychydig bach, bach o Gymraeg i'r rhai sydd yn gwbl rugl ac yn hyddysg?
As it happens, in last week's session the Cabinet Secretary responsible for the Welsh language said that almost everyone can speak some Welsh in Wales, unless they've just arrived here. So, do you think that the CEFR can reflect that broad range of people who have very, very little skill in the Welsh language to those who are entirely fluent and versed in the language?
Er fy mod i wedi dweud bod gyda fi brofiad blaenorol, dwi ychwaith ddim yn arbenigwr yn y maes. Beth fuaswn i'n dweud yw, os dwi'n cofio'n iawn, yn Saesneg, er enghraifft, ar gyfer plant ifanc mae yna Cambridge English a rhai lefelau sydd o dan yr A1 ar gyfer plant ifanc. Dwi'n meddwl ar gyfer y lefelau top bod ni'n iawn, ond efallai fod angen edrych ar y lefelau is na A1 i blant ifanc. Dwi, wrth gwrs, yn cytuno bod pawb yng Nghymru yn gallu siarad Cymraeg, neu wedi o leiaf gweld Cymraeg o gwmpas, ond nid beth rŷn ni'n moyn ar ddiwedd y broses hon yw miliwn o bobl yn gallu dweud 'Bore da' na miliwn o bobl ar A1.
Felly, mae yna ryw rinwedd efallai mewn dweud y gall pobl fod o dan A1—mae hwnna'n un categori o bobl—ond wedyn bod pobl mewn categorïau uwch. Felly, dwi ddim yn siŵr os yw A1 yn cyfro'r bobl yna sy'n gallu dweud 'Bore da' yn unig, ond efallai, yn syml iawn, byddai modd dweud nad ydyn nhw ar lefel A1, fel datrysiad syml. Ond mae hwn, dwi'n credu, angen ei weithio allan gydag arbenigwyr o ran y cod ei hun ac ystyried anghenion plant ifanc, efallai, yn arbennig.
Although I have said that I have previous experience, I'm not an expert in this area. What I would say is that, if memory serves me correctly, in English, for example, for young children there is Cambridge English and certain levels below the A1 for very young children. I think for the upper levels, we'll be fine, but perhaps we do need to look at levels below A1 for young children particularly. Now, of course, I agree that everyone in Wales can speak some Welsh, or will have at least seen the Welsh language around them, but what we want at the end of this process is not a million people able to say 'Bore da' or a million people on level A1.
So, there is some merit, perhaps, in saying that people could be below A1—that's one category of people—but then there are people in the upper categories too. So, I don't know if A1 covers those people who can only say 'Bore da', but, simply, you could say that they aren't at A1 level, as a simple solution. But I think this needs to be worked out with specialists in terms of the code itself, and to consider the needs of young children, particularly.
A'r cwestiwn olaf yw: a ydych chi'n gweld rôl i chi fel comisiynydd o ran hwyluso ymwybyddiaeth o'r CEFR pe bai hyn yn dod yn rhan o'n system addysg ni?
And the final question is: do you see a role for yourself as commissioner in terms of facilitating awareness of the CEFR if this became part of our education system?
Reit. Felly, i glymu nôl i fy sylwadau blaenorol i ynglŷn â datblygu safonau newydd yn ymwneud â'r gweithlu, dyna'r union le y byddwn i'n disgwyl i ddisgrifyddion y CEFR gael eu hymgorffori yn y safonau hynny, er mwyn ei gwneud hi'n gliriach i weithwyr ac i weithleoedd beth yw'r anghenion a'r lefelau sydd eu hangen ar gyfer swydd. Felly, yn fy marn i, mae'n bwysig bod y safonau yn cael eu hadolygu er mwyn cau'r cylch. Gyda lwc, bydd pobl yn gorffen y system addysg yn gwybod ar ba lefel y maen nhw ar y CEFR. Ac felly, pan fyddan nhw'n gweld swydd sydd yn dweud eich bod chi angen B2 er mwyn gallu ateb y ffôn, ond rŷch chi angen C2 er mwyn gallu ysgrifennu dogfennau, bydd pobl â gwell dealltwriaeth o ble maen nhw.
Yr unig beth arall fuaswn i'n dweud o fy mhrofiad blaenorol hefyd yw bod y lefel rŷch chi'n ei chyrraedd ar y CEFR ddim o angenrheidrwydd yn golygu pa mor hyderus rydych chi'n defnyddio'r Gymraeg sydd gyda chi. Felly, mae angen ychydig bach o ofal weithiau, ond o'm rhan i, byddai cau'r cylch CEFR gyda'r safonau yn rhywbeth fyddai'n gwneud synnwyr llwyr.
Right. To refer back to my previous comments on developing new standards in relation to the workforce, that's exactly where I would expect the CEFR descriptors to be incorporated in those standards, in order to make it clearer to the workforce and workplaces what the requirements and levels are for any particular role. So, in my view, it's important that the standards are reviewed in order to complete that circle. With luck, people will leave the education system knowing what level they're at on the CEFR. And when they see a job that states that you need B2, for example, in order to be able to answer the phone, but you need C2 in order to draft documents, people will have a better understanding of where they are on the continuum.
The only other thing I'd say from previous experience too is that the level you get to on the CEFR doesn't necessarily reflect how confident you are in using the Welsh language skills that you have. So, we do need to be slightly careful in that regard, but I think that completing that CEFR circle with standards would be something that would make complete sense.
Ac, wrth gwrs, mae'r CEFR yn mesur sawl ystod o sgiliau hefyd, nid yn unig y gallu i siarad—
And, of course, the CEFR measures a range of skills as well, not just the ability to speak—
Na, y pedwar sgil.
No, the four skills.
—ond hefyd ysgrifennu, gwrando, darllen, ac yn y blaen. Felly, gallai person fod ar wahanol lefelau ar bob un o'r sgiliau yna yw'r pwynt.
—but also writing, listening, reading, and so forth. So, people could be at different levels on each of those different skills is the point.
Mewn theori, rwy'n meddwl, ond yn gyffredinol rŷch chi'n chwilio am un lefel y mae pobl yn ei chyrraedd.
In theory, yes, but I do think that generally speaking you're looking for a single level that an individual would attain.
Diolch yn fawr. Diolch.
Thank you very much. Thank you.
Thank you. We now go online to Tom Giffard, please.
Diolch, Gadeirydd. Bore da, Efa.
Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Efa.
Bore da.
Good morning.
Rydych chi'n nodi yn eich tystiolaeth ysgrifenedig fod gennych chi rai pryderon o ran lefel y manylion yn y Bil ynglŷn â'r categorïau iaith fydd yn cael eu cymhwyso i ysgolion. A allwch chi ymhelaethu ar hyn ac egluro a ydych chi'n ei weld fel cam ymlaen neu yn ôl o'r trefniadau presennol a nodir mewn canllawiau anstatudol?
You noted in your written evidence that you had some concerns in terms of the level of detail in the Bill regarding the language categories that will be applied to schools. Can you expand on this, and explain whether you see it as a step forward or a step back in terms of the current arrangements set out in non-statutory guidance?
Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiwn. Yn sicr, dwi'n gweld hwn fel cam sylweddol ymlaen. Dwi'n croesawu'r eglurder sy'n gallu cael ei roi i rieni, a disgyblion, sydd ddim bob amser yn glir ar hyn o bryd. A dwi'n cefnogi'n llwyr y syniad o osod categorïau er mwyn i ysgolion eu cyrraedd nhw, yn hytrach na'n bod ni'n trio categoreiddio ar sail ystod enfawr o amrediad fel sydd ar hyn o bryd. Yr amrediad eang yna sydd yn lleihau eglurder i rieni a disgyblion ar hyn o bryd.
Fodd bynnag, dwi'n mynegi rhywfaint o bryder—a dwi'n deall pam nad yw'r manylion yn y Ddeddf ac mai mewn is-ddeddfwriaeth y byddwn ni'n gweld y manylion—ond rhywbeth i fod yn ofalus ohono fe, o bosibl, yw'r amrediad eang a allai fod yn y categori prif iaith Cymraeg, er enghraifft. Ar hyn o bryd, mae yna ysgolion sy'n 100 y cant Cymraeg, 90 y cant Cymraeg, ond, o fewn y categori top, gallwch chi fod yn ysgol â 60 y cant o'r ddarpariaeth yn Gymraeg i 70 y cant o'r disgyblion, er enghraifft. Mae yna amrediad eang iawn o ran beth allai fod yn y categori prif iaith Cymraeg. Dwi'n meddwl bod y comisiwn cymunedau wedi cyfeirio at gategori posibl o 80 y cant fel lleiafswm ar gyfer ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg, fel y byddem ni'n ei ddeall e. Felly, o bosibl y byddai'r Ddeddf yn gallu cael ei chryfhau o bennu isafswm ar gyfer y categori hwnnw. Ond dwi yn deall pam, yn ymarferol, ei bod hi'n well cael y math yma o wybodaeth mewn is-ddeddfwriaeth, ond jest i ni ochel rhag ein bod ni'n gwneud y categori mor eang fel ein bod ni'n ychwanegu unwaith eto at y cymhlethdod rŷn ni'n trio ei osgoi drwy greu'r categorïau clir yma. Felly, rhywbeth i chi i'w ystyried, efallai, wrth i chi feddwl ymhellach.
Thank you very much for that question. Certainly, I see this as a significant step forward. I welcome the clarity that can be provided to parents, and pupils, who aren't always clear on these issues at the moment. And I fully support the concept of having categories in place so that schools can strive for them, rather than trying to categorise on the basis of a huge range, which is currently the case. It is that broad range that reduces clarity for parents and pupils alike at the moment.
However, I would express some concern—and I understand why the details aren't in the Bill and that they will be set out in subordinate legislation—but something to be guarded of, possibly, and that is the broad range that could exist in the primarily Welsh language category, for example. At the moment, there are schools that are 100 per cent Welsh, 90 per cent Welsh, but, in that top category, you could be a school with 60 per cent of provision in Welsh for 70 per cent of the pupils, for example. So, there's a very broad range of what could be included in that primarily Welsh language category. I think that the communities commission referred to a possible category of 80 per cent as a minimum for a Welsh-medium school, as we would understand it. So, perhaps the Bill could be strengthened in terms of placing a minimum level for that category. But I do understand why, in practical terms, it's better to have that kind of information in subordinate legislation, but we must just guard against making the category so broad that we add again to the complexity that we're trying to avoid by creating these clear categories in the first place. So, that's something for your consideration perhaps, as you move forward.
Sorry, Tom, could I bring Lee in quickly here, please?
[Inaudible.]
Mae'n flin gyda fi, dwi ddim—
I'm sorry, I can't—
Sorry, did you understand that?
Na.
No.
No. Sorry, Lee, you're breaking up dreadfully.
Sorry. I was just saying I'll probably wait until Tom has finished his questions.
Okay. Thanks, Lee. Tom.
Diolch. Rydych chi wedi sôn dipyn bach am hyn yn barod, ond dwi'n mynd i ofyn y cwestiwn ta beth. Mae'r Bil yn pennu isafswm darpariaeth addysg Gymraeg, 10 y cant, y mae’n rhaid ei ddarparu mewn ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg, ond does dim isafswm o'r fath ar gyfer ysgolion dwy iaith neu ysgolion Cymraeg yn bennaf. Ydych chi’n pryderu o gwbl fod y Bil yn canolbwyntio’n ormodol ar ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg ar ben isaf y sbectrwm a dim digon ar sicrhau bod disgyblion yn datblygu eu sgiliau Cymraeg yn llawn mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg?
Thank you. You've spoken a little bit about this already, but I'll ask the question anyway. The Bill sets a minimum amount of Welsh language education provision, 10 per cent, that must be provided in primarily English language, partly Welsh schools, but there's no such minimum amount for dual language or primarily Welsh language schools. Are you concerned at all that the Bill focuses overly on English-medium schools at the lower end of the spectrum and not enough on ensuring pupils fully develop their Welsh language skills in Welsh-medium schools?
Diolch. Dwi'n meddwl fy mod i wedi ateb rhan o'r cwestiwn yn fy ateb blaenorol. Fodd bynnag, un pwynt yr hoffwn i dynnu'ch sylw chi ato fe yw mai ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg fydd yn cynhyrchu'r siaradwyr mwyaf hyderus i'r dyfodol. A thra fy mod i'n digwydd credu ei bod hi, a dweud y gwir, yn fater o gyfiawnder cymdeithasol bod pob plentyn yng Nghymru yn dysgu'r Gymraeg, fodd bynnag, ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg fydd yn cynhyrchu'r siaradwyr mwyaf hyderus. Ac mae tystiolaeth yn dangos mai siaradwyr hyderus sydd fwyaf tebygol o ddefnyddio'r Gymraeg yn eu bywydau bob dydd ac o drosglwyddo'r iaith i'w plant nhw, sydd wrth gwrs yn rhywbeth hynod o bwysig. Felly, tra'n croesawu yr hyn sy'n cael ei awgrymu o ran ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg, dwi ddim eisiau i hynny fod ar draul datblygiad addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg—ac efallai down ni ymlaen, yn nes ymlaen, i siarad am y gweithlu—ond mae angen datblygu addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg fel blaenoriaeth, yn ogystal â rhoi'r cyfle i bawb ym mhob ysgol i ddysgu'r Gymraeg yn well nag y maen nhw'n ei wneud ar hyn o bryd.
Thank you. I think I've already answered part of that question in my previous response. However, one point that I would like to highlight is that it is Welsh-medium schools that will produce the most confident Welsh speakers for the future. And whilst I happen to believe that it is, actually, a matter of social justice that every child in Wales should learn Welsh, however, it's Welsh-medium schools that will produce the most confident Welsh speakers. And evidence does demonstrate that it's confident speakers who are most likely to use the Welsh language in their daily lives and are most likely to transfer the language to their children, and that of course is hugely important. So, whilst I welcome what is suggested in terms of English-medium schools, I don't want that to be at the expense of the development of Welsh-medium education—and perhaps we will come on to talk about the workforce later—but we need to develop Welsh-medium education as a priority, as well as providing everyone in every school with the opportunity to learn Welsh better than is currently the case.
Diolch. Pa mor effeithiol ydych chi'n rhagweld y bydd y cynlluniau cyflwyno addysg Gymraeg ysgolion yn gweithio yn ymarferol? Ac, a oes gennych chi farn ar y ddarpariaeth ar gyfer yr ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg, i allu gwneud cais am eithriadau dros dro o'r gofyniad i ddarparu 10 y cant o addysg Gymraeg?
Thank you. How effectively do you anticipate schools' Welsh language education delivery plans working in practice? And do you have any views on the provision for primarily English, partly Welsh schools, to be able to apply for temporary exemptions from the requirement to provide 10 per cent of Welsh language education?
Wel, dyma gynnig eto dwi'n ei groesawu'n fawr. Mae'r Ddeddf yn cynnig fframwaith ar gyfer cynllunio sydd â fframwaith lefel uchel, y cynlluniau CSCA sydd wedyn yn gweithio lawr i'r cynlluniau cyflawni lleol, felly ysgolion unigol. Felly, dwi'n croesawu'r cysyniad yn fawr. Mae hwnna'n fwlch sydd, ar hyn o bryd, o ran cyfrifoldeb, ar ysgolion unigol, felly dwi'n sicr yn croesawu'n fawr defnyddio hwn fel dull i symud ysgolion ar hyd y continwwm ieithyddol.
Dwi'n deall pam mae yna brosesau'n cael eu cynnig ar gyfer yr eithriadau dros dro, ac, os ydw i wedi deall yn iawn, mae'r eithriadau dros dro yn gallu golygu y byddai yna oedi o 10 mlynedd ar gyfer rhai ysgolion. Tra, eto, efallai ein bod ni'n gallu deall y rhesymau pam am hynny, mae hwnna'n teimlo'n amser hir, a hyd yn oed mewn achos o eithriadau, mae angen paratoi nawr neu byddwn ni jest yn cyrraedd pwynt mewn saith mlynedd, a byddwn ni'n dweud, 'Rŷn ni wedi anghofio meddwl am hynny.' Felly, hyd yn oed mewn sefyllfa o eithriad, fe ddylai'r cynllunio ddechrau nawr. Ond dwi'n croesawu'r cysyniad a'r dull sy'n cael eu hawgrymu.
Well, this is another proposal that I warmly welcome. The legislation does provide a framework for planning, which has a high-level framework, it has the WESPs that then feed down into the local delivery plans, and therefore individual schools. So, I welcome the concept very much. That is a gap in the system at the moment, in terms of the responsibility on individual schools, so I certainly warmly welcome using this as a means to move schools along the linguistic continuum.
I understand why processes are being proposed for those temporary exceptions, and, if I've understood it correctly, the temporary exemptions could mean that there would be a delay of 10 years for some schools. Whilst we can perhaps understand the reasons for that, that does feel like a very long time, and even in a case of an exemption, we need to prepare now or we will just reach a point in seven years' time, and we will be saying, 'We've forgotten to think about that.' So, even in a position of an exemption, the planning should start now. But I welcome the concept and the method set out.
Diolch. Y cwestiwn olaf wrthyf fi: a yw'r Bil, yn eich barn chi, yn gwneud digon o ran sicrhau bod y gweithlu addysg angenrheidiol yn ei le i gyflawni'r cynnydd yn y ddarpariaeth addysg Gymraeg a ragwelir? Os nad ydyw, sut gellid ei gryfhau?
Thank you. And my final question: does the Bill, in your view, do enough in terms of ensuring the necessary education workforce is in place to deliver the increased amount of Welsh language education provision envisaged? If not, how could the Bill be strengthened?
Diolch yn fawr am y cwestiwn. Roedd hwn yn un maes roeddwn i eisiau tynnu eich sylw chi ato fe heddiw. Dyw'r anawsterau o ran datblygu'r gweithlu ddim yn syndod i chi fel pwyllgor. Rŷn ni yn ymwybodol bod holl gyflawni'r Ddeddf yma yn dibynnu ar gael gweithlu cymwys. Mae yna sôn yn y Ddeddf am ddatblygu gweithlu, ond fy marn i yw y byddai hwnna'n gallu cael ei gryfhau ymhellach, efallai drwy ofyn i'r fframwaith sôn yn benodol am ddatblygu cynllun datblygu gweithlu. Mae'r athrofa yn cynnig ffordd i gefnogi athrawon ac i greu adnoddau, ond dwi'n meddwl mai Llywodraeth Cymru sydd â rhai o'r levers, efallai, lefel uwch o ran addysg gychwynnol athrawon, a sicrhau bod pawb sydd yn cymhwyso yng Nghymru fel athro yn derbyn cefnogaeth i ddatblygu eu sgiliau iaith nhw, er enghraifft.
Mae yna waith wedi digwydd i'r cyfeiriad yma mewn blynyddoedd diweddar. Mae gennym ni gynllun datblygu'r gweithlu, ond os ŷch chi yn edrych ar y ffigurau, mae yna waith eto i'w wneud i'r cyfeiriad hwn, yn sicr, os ŷn ni am weld y Ddeddf yn llwyddo, fel ŷn ni'n gobeithio. Felly, unrhyw beth y byddai modd ei wneud i gryfhau y gofyniad i gynllunio ar gyfer datblygu'r gweithlu, byddwn i'n croesawu hynny.
Thank you very much for the question. That was one area that I did want to draw to your attention today. The difficulties in developing the workforce will come as no surprise to you as a committee. We are aware that the delivery of this whole Act will depend on having a qualified workforce. There is mention in the legislation about workforce development, but my view is that that could be further strengthened, perhaps by asking the framework to refer specifically to the development of a workforce plan. The athrofa provides a means to support teachers and to create resources, but I do think that it's the Welsh Government that has some of the high-level levers in terms of initial teacher training, and ensuring that everyone who qualifies as a teacher in Wales does receive support to develop their own language skills, for example.
There has been some work done in this regard in recent years. We do have a workforce development plan, but if you look at the figures, then there is still work to be done in this regard, certainly if we want to see this legislation succeeding as we would hope. So, anything that could be done to strengthen that requirement to plan and develop the workforce, I would welcome that.
Os caf i jest gydio yn y pwynt olaf: ydych chi'n gweld gwerth mewn gosod targedau penodol ar gyfer datblygu'r gweithlu, fel bod hynny yn nod i'r Llywodraeth?
If I could just come in on the last point: do you see value in placing specific targets for developing the workforce, so that that is an aim for the Government?
Wel, mae gosod targed yn gallu ffocysu'r meddwl, onid yw e? Tua 1,000 sy'n hyfforddi i fod yn athrawon ar hyn o bryd, os ydw i'n cofio'n iawn, a dwi ddim yn gwybod beth yw'r ffigurau ar gyfer faint sy'n siarad Cymraeg neu'n bwriadu dysgu Cymraeg fel rhan o'r rheini, ond os ydyn ni'n sôn am ddatblygu ysgolion a symud ysgolion ar hyd y continwwm, mae'n gwneud synnwyr ein bod ni'n gallu gweithio allan faint o athrawon rŷn ni eu hangen sy'n gallu siarad Cymraeg. Dwi wedi gweld ffigurau am nifer yr athrawon sy'n ymddeol, er enghraifft, dros y 10 mlynedd nesaf, ac mae'r corff sy'n cofrestru athrawon yn cofnodi iaith athrawon a sgiliau iaith athrawon. Felly, mae llawer o'r data yn cael ei gasglu ac, ie, pam lai gosod targed penodol fel ein bod ni'n gwybod beth rŷn ni'n trio'i gyflawni?
Well, setting targets can certainly focus the mind. There are around 1,000 people training to be teachers at the moment, if memory serves me correctly, and I don't know what the figures are in terms of how many are Welsh speakers or intend to learn the language, but if we are talking about developing schools and moving schools along the continuum, then it makes sense that we should be able to work out how many teachers we need that can speak Welsh. I have seen some figures in terms of the numbers of teachers due to retire over the next 10 years, and the body responsible for registering teachers does record teachers' language skills. So, there's a great deal of data being collected and, yes, why not set a specific target so that we know what we're seeking to deliver?
Ie. Diolch.
Yes. Thank you.
Thank you. We'll go over to Lee now, please. Lee.
Thank very much. I just want to touch on that entire—[Inaudible.]—points on language categorisation, because, as you said there, you think it's a matter of social justice that it's important that all children get the chance to learn Welsh. 'But', you said, and a quite significant 'but'—and it's strong in your evidence paper as well—you think the emphasis should be on immersion provision and on Welsh-medium provision. Given that the majority of pupils in Wales are not going to be in Welsh-medium categories for some time to come, and given that the majority of staff that we have are the staff that are going to be in the system for some time, it seems to me we have a pretty stubborn problem on our hands here if we are sincere about your first comment, about ensuring social justice. Do you think the Bill says enough? And do you think you and your office are doing enough to focus on the majority of students and the quality of Welsh teaching that they're having, rather than simply saying, 'We need to focus on the more proficient end'?
Lee, a bod yn onest, dwi ddim yn dy glywed di’n hollol glir, ond dwi'n credu fy mod i wedi deall yr hyn roeddet ti'n ei ofyn. Os dwi ddim yn ateb y cwestiwn, wnei di ddod yn ôl ataf i? Y pwyntiau rwyt ti’n gofyn yw’r rheswm dros y Ddeddf yma, dwi'n credu, sef ein bod ni am gynyddu a gwella dysgu’r Gymraeg i ddisgyblion mewn categorïau prif iaith Saesneg. Mae yna lawer o'r ffocws, o ran yr athrofa, ar ddatblygu’r deunyddiau a'r adnoddau er mwyn gwella dysgu’r Gymraeg mewn ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg, felly dwi'n meddwl bod hynny'n rhywbeth pwysig sydd angen ei wneud.
Ie, mae'n anodd, onid yw e? Mewn byd delfrydol, byddai gyda ni ddigon o athrawon yfory i wneud y gwaith yma. Ond dyna pam mae camau wedi eu gosod yn y Ddeddf, fel y mae hi, o ran yr eithriadau gan ein bod ni yn deall, a dyna pam dwi o'r farn bod angen y cynllun datblygu’r gweithlu i gyd-fynd â'r Ddeddf, fel ein bod ni'n gwella capasiti, yn cefnogi ysgolion i symud ar hyd y continwwm, ond ar yr un pryd ddim yn cadw’n llygaid oddi ar ddatblygu y nifer o ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg sydd ar gael. Dyw addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg ddim y dewis hawsaf mewn llawer iawn o ardaloedd yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd, a dwi'n meddwl y byddai llawer iawn mwy o rieni yn dewis addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg i'w plant nhw pe byddai hi'r ysgol agosaf atyn nhw, er enghraifft. Felly, dwi o'r farn bod angen cadw ffocws ar ddatblygu addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, ond, wrth gwrs dwi am weld pawb yng Nghymru yn cael y cyfle i ddysgu a bod y ffordd rŷn ni'n dysgu plant mewn ysgolion cyfrwng iaith Saesneg yn gwella. Mae angen, er mwyn gwneud hynny, adnoddau gwell, cefnogaeth well i athrawon, a mwy o athrawon sydd wedi eu hyfforddi i ddysgu’r Gymraeg a thrwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg.
Fe wnest ti ofyn cwestiwn am fy ngwaith i a'r sefydliad. Fel gwnes i egluro ar y dechrau, mae fy rôl i yn ymwneud mwy â chynnig cyfleoedd i bobl ddefnyddio’u Cymraeg nhw yn y gweithle a sicrhau bod pobl, wrth fynd o amgylch eu bywydau bob dydd ac wrth ymwneud â’r sector gyhoeddus yng Nghymru, yn gallu defnyddio eu Cymraeg nhw yn fwy hwylus.
Dwi ddim yn siŵr os oedd hynna'n ateb y cwestiwn.
Lee, to be honest, I'm not hearing you very clearly, but I think I’ve understood what you were asking. If I’m not answering the question, will you come back to me? The points that you ask is the reason for this legislation, I think, namely that we want to increase and improve the teaching of Welsh to pupils in primarily English language schools. There is an emphasis, as regards the institute, on developing resources and materials to improve the teaching of Welsh in primarily English language schools, so I think that's an important piece of work that needs to be done.
It's difficult, isn't it? In an ideal world, we would have enough teachers tomorrow to do this work. But that's why steps have been put in place in the legislation, because we understand the situation, and that's why I'm of the view that we need the education workforce development plan to go with that legislation so that we improve capacity, that we support schools to move along the continuum, but also, at the same time, stay focused on increasing the number of Welsh-medium schools that are available. Welsh-medium education is not the easiest choice in many areas of Wales at the moment, and I do think that many more parents would choose Welsh-medium education for their children if it was the nearest school to them, for example. So, I am of the view that there is a need to keep a focus on developing Welsh-medium education, but, of course, I also want to see everybody in Wales having the opportunity to learn Welsh and that the way we teach pupils in English-medium schools improves. In order to do that, there is a need for better resources, better support for teachers, and more teachers who have been trained to teach the Welsh language and through the medium of Welsh.
You asked a question about my work and the organisation. As I explained at the beginning, my role relates more to offering opportunities for people to use their Welsh language in the workplace and to ensure that people, as they go about their everyday lives and when they engage with the public sector, can use their Welsh more easily.
I'm not sure whether that has answered the question.
Yes, in part, thank you. My sound's better now; apologies for that. My concern, really, is the transition from the system where the bulk of children currently are in English-medium schools to having far stronger Welsh-medium provision. I agree with that, and I agree with your point on the need for a workforce strategy. But the reality is that, for quite some time, we’re going to have the larger section of the school population poorly served by Welsh language provision. The focus in your evidence is on the importance of targets, and I understand targets drive change, but we also know the reality of the workforce as it stands, and we also know that the reality of the attempts to change that over recent years, which have not been very successful, is that we have a pretty stubborn problem in terms of the ability of the system to deliver to those targets. And I worry about the unintended consequences of setting targets when we don’t have the ability to deliver on them. And your evidence is silent on that.
Diolch am y pwyntiau rwyt ti’n eu gwneud. Yn fy marn i, ac yn deillio o fy mhrofiad i gyda dysgu’r Gymraeg i oedolion, byddai modd, yn eithaf cyflym, datblygu adnoddau gwell i ysgolion a gwell cefnogaeth i ysgolion i ddysgu’r Gymraeg fel pwnc. Dyw e ddim yn gwneud dim synnwyr i fi—a dwi’n datgan diddordeb oherwydd fy ngwaith blaenorol—fod buddsoddiad helaeth wedi bod mewn datblygu adnoddau i oedolion, ond nad oes dim byd cyfatebol wedi digwydd ar y raddfa honno ar gyfer disgyblion ysgol. Felly, mae yna quick wins yn bosib yn y broses yma.
Fel dywedais i ar y dechrau, y deddfu yw’r darn hawdd o’r gwaith yma, ond dwi’n meddwl bod gosod targed, gosod cyfeiriad, mynd â phobl ar siwrne, a bod yn glir am y continwwm ieithyddol, a’r ffaith ein bod ni am i ysgolion gael yr uchelgais, a bod y pethau yma, gydag amser, yn gallu gwella—. Ond mae yna rai pethau, dwi’n credu, y byddai modd eu gwneud yn gyflym iawn i wella’r profiad o ddysgu Cymraeg mewn ysgolion cyfrwng prif iaith Saesneg.
Thank you for the points that you make. In my view, and stemming from my experience in the field of teaching Welsh to adults, there would be a way, quite quickly, of developing better resources and better support to schools to teach Welsh as a subject. It doesn’t make any sense to me—and I declare an interest because of my previous work—that there’s been a vast investment in developing resources for adults but no corresponding investment on that scale for school pupils. So, there are quick wins that are possible in this process.
As I said at the beginning, legislating is the easiest part of this work, but I think that setting targets and setting a direction, taking people on a journey, and being clear in terms of the linguistic continuum, and the fact that we want schools to have that ambition, and that these things, with time can improve—. But there are some things that I feel that could be done quite swiftly to improve the experience of learning Welsh in primarily English language schools.
Diolch.
Thank you. Thank you, Lee. We'll now go on to Gareth Davies, please.
Thank you very much, Chair. Good morning, everybody, and good morning, Efa. I just want to focus on part 4 of the Bill, if I may. The Welsh Government wants to establish a clear line of accountability at a national, local and school level for the planning of Welsh language education. To what extent do you believe that the Bill does this?
Ie, dwi’n croesawu hynny'n fawr. Dwi’n meddwl bod y syniad o lunio fframwaith cenedlaethol, sy’n eistedd o dan y strategaeth genedlaethol, yn syniad da. Dyma fydd yn gosod y targedau o ran addysg, ac yn gosod y cyd-destun ar gyfer y CSCAau lleol a chynlluniau ysgolion. Felly, i fi, mae’n gwneud synnwyr bod yna lif yn mynd o un i’r llall, a bod yna linell atebolrwydd rhwng un peth a’r llall. Ac, yn fy marn i, mae hyn yn llawer cryfach na’r hyn sydd wedi bod yn y gorffennol. Felly, dwi’n croesawu hynny.
Yes, I warmly welcome that. I think that the concept of drawing up a national framework, which would sit below the national strategy, is a good idea. That’s what will set targets in terms of education, and will set the context for the WESPs at a local level and school plans. So, for me, it makes sense that one flows into another, and that there is a line of accountability between one and the other. And, in my view, it is far stronger than what has existed in the past. So, I welcome that.
Thanks for that answer. In his evidence to the CYPE committee last week, the Minister, Mark Drakeford, mentioned that there would be some flexibility, potentially, within that, particularly in regard to schools that may have more challenges in the delivery of Welsh language, particularly more areas in the east of Wales. Would that be something that you would share as commissioner—Mark Drakeford’s view on that—obviously bearing in mind the geographical differences, and the demographics as well, in the delivery of that at a school level?
Ie, dwi’n deall y pryderon yna, a dyna pam dwi’n credu bod y system o esemptiadau wedi’u gosod yn y Bil. Fel y soniais i mewn ateb i gwestiwn blaenorol, mae hwnna’n gallu para am 10 mlynedd, sydd, i fi, yn teimlo ychydig yn hir, ond dwi’n deall, oherwydd y rhesymau rŷch chi newydd esbonio, taw dyna pam mae'r hyblygrwydd yna yn y Ddeddf.
Dwi’n croesawu'r ffaith y bydd hi’n haws i ysgolion symud ar hyd y continwwm oherwydd y darpariaethau sydd yn y Ddeddf, a dwi’n teimlo bod yr hyblygrwydd sydd yn y Ddeddf o ran esemptiadau ar hyn o bryd yn addas, am yr union resymau rŷch chi wedi’u nodi.
Yes, I understand those concerns, and that’s why I think that the system of exemptions is included in the Bill. As I mentioned in response to a previous question, that could go on for 10 years, which, for me, feels slightly too long, but I do understand, because of the reasons that you’ve outlined, that that's why that flexibility exists within the Act.
I welcome the fact that it will be easier for schools to move along the continuum because of the provisions contained within the legislation, and I do think that the flexibility contained in the legislation in terms of exemptions is appropriate, for the exact reasons that you set out.
Yes. Thank you very much. To what extent is the Bill clear enough about what it means by
'increasing the provision of Welsh language education in schools'?
For example, does it adequately distinguish between the two distinct aims of the Bill in increasing the number of pupils attending primarily Welsh language schools and increasing the amount of the Welsh language in dual language schools? So, it's a bit of an extension to the question, but, in terms of that wording of the Bill, is that something that's covered, and to what extent? And is that satisfactory?
Ie, diolch am y cwestiwn. Dwi yn meddwl bod hwn yn rhywbeth ichi ei ystyried fel pwyllgor ac yn un elfen y buaswn i, fy hunan, yn meddwl sydd angen ei chryfhau. Dwi ddim yn cwestiynu'r bwriad polisi sydd yn y Bil, ac mae'r memorandwm esboniadol yn gwneud yn glir beth yw'r bwriad. Ond weithiau, yn y Ddeddf, mae yna sôn am ddarpariaeth addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, a dwi'n credu y byddai modd i hyn gael ei egluro yn gadarnach. Dwi wedi cyfeirio yn fy ymateb ysgrifenedig at rai o'r enghreifftiau lle dwi'n pryderu am y rhain. Hynny yw, mae yna sôn am gynyddu darpariaeth addysg Gymraeg heb ei bod hi'n hollol glir ai addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg neu ddysgu'r Gymraeg mewn ysgol prif iaith Saesneg yw hynny. Fel dywedais i, dwi'n meddwl bod y bwriad polisi'n glir. Mae e wedi ei osod allan, ond dwi'n meddwl ei bod yn fater o eirio mewn rhai llefydd er mwyn gwneud hynny'n gliriach, achos dwi ddim am weld lleihad na glastwreiddio'r cysyniad o addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, a bod hynny'n glir.
Thank you for the question. I do think that this is something for you to consider as a committee and is an element that I, myself, think needs to be strengthened. I'm not questioning the policy intention in the Bill, and the explanatory memorandum makes clear what the intention is, but sometimes in the Act there is mention of Welsh-medium education provision, and I think this could be explained more robustly. I have referred in my written evidence to examples where I am concerned about this. There is talk about increasing the provision of Welsh language education without it being clear if it's Welsh-medium education or teaching Welsh in primarily English language schools. As I said, I think the policy intention is clear, and that has been set out, but I think it's a matter of wording in some places in order to make that clearer, because I don't want to see that reduction or dilution of the idea of Welsh-medium education, and that needs to be clear.
One second, Gareth. Is it—
Comparing again that national, local and school level, do you agree with the shift in the purpose and approach of local authorities in WESPs, whereby the Welsh Government sets the targets and local authorities plan and implement them? Do you have any views on the retention of the name of the WESPs, rather than the Welsh education implementation plans, WEIPs, as was proposed in the White Paper?
Dwi'n hapus, yn yr achos yma, gyda beth sy'n cael ei gynnig yn y Ddeddf. Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod y newid geiriad yn arwyddocaol. Mae awdurdodau lleol erbyn hyn wedi croesawu ac yn gweithredu CSCAau, ac mae'r drefn, o beth dwi'n gallu gweld, yn dechrau gweithio'n dda. Ond dwi'n meddwl bod gwendid wedi bod yn y targedau cenedlaethol sy'n cael eu gosod. Felly, mae'r gyfundrefn hon yn caniatáu gwneud hynny. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod yr hyn sy'n cael ei gynnig yn ddatblygiad cadarnhaol ac yn rhoi mwy o gysylltiad rhwng y CSCAau a'r weledigaeth a'r uchelgais genedlaethol.
I'm happy in this case with what's proposed within the legislation. I don't think that the change of wording is significant. Local authorities have now welcomed and are implementing the WESPs, and the regime, as far as I can see, is starting to work well. But I do think that there has been a weakness in the national targets that are set. So, I think that this regime does allow for that to happen. So, I think that what is proposed is a positive development and provides more connection between the WESPs and the national vision and ambition.
Gareth—
Yes, and just finally—and this is my final question on this part, because we've discussed WESPs already—obviously, the wider aim is to achieve 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050 under the Cymraeg scheme. Obviously, in that time—and all Members and parties are signed up to that, and that's something that—. I just want to seek a view from you on how achievable you believe that is, given that we've had, unfortunately, a drop in Welsh speakers since that pledge was signed and directed towards—. So, do you think that it is achievable, and do you think that this is a key part of achieving that, given the issues I've already mentioned in my earlier questioning about some of those geographical differences across Wales and some of the barriers to delivering that?
Ie, dwi yn meddwl ei bod hi'n bosibl, dim ond os ydyn ni'n gwneud pethau fel deddfu yn y maes yma a sicrhau bod plant yn gadael y system addysg yng Nghymru yn gallu siarad Cymraeg. Nid dim ond deddfu fel hyn sydd ei angen; mae Llywodraeth Cymru newydd dderbyn adroddiad gan Gomisiwn Cymunedau Cymraeg ac wedi derbyn nifer o argymhellion am sut gallwn ni gryfhau'r Gymraeg yn gymunedol. Mae yna bethau o ran fy ngwaith i y gallwn ni eu datblygu o'u cwmpas nhw. Felly, gyda'i gilydd, mae'r pethau yma'n rhoi cyfle da inni gyrraedd y targed hwnnw.
Felly, yn sicr, dwi'n optimistig ein bod ni, gyda'n gilydd—er ein bod ni'n byw mewn gwlad drws nesaf i un o ddiwylliannau mwyaf dylanwadol y byd—yn gwneud ein gorau fel iaith i sicrhau bod cenedlaethau'r dyfodol yn gallu mwynhau defnyddio ei chyfoeth hi a sicrhau bod pobl i'r dyfodol yn cael y rhodd o siarad Cymraeg a siarad mwy nag un iaith.
Yes, I do think it is possible, only if we do things such as legislate in this area and ensure that children leave the education system in Wales able to speak Welsh. Legislation such as this isn't the only thing that's required; Welsh Government has just had the Commission for Welsh-speaking Communities report and had a number of recommendations about how we can strengthen the Welsh language on a community level. There are things in terms of my work that we could develop around them. So, together, all these things provide a good opportunity for us to reach that target.
Therefore, certainly, I am optimistic that, together—even though we live in a country next door to one of the world's most influential cultures—we are doing our best as a language to ensure that future generations can enjoy using the richness of that language and ensure that people in the future have the gift of speaking Welsh and speaking more than one language.
Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. Can I bring Cefin in quickly here?
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Yn fyr iawn, os gallaf fynd yn ôl i'r ateb rhoddoch chi ynglŷn â beth rŷch chi'n ei weld yn broblematig, sef gwahaniaethu rhwng addysg Gymraeg ac addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, beth ŷch chi'n teimlo gallai fod canlyniadau anfwriadol hynny ar ganfyddiad rhieni o bosibl?
Thank you very much. Very briefly, if I could return to your response on what you see as being problematic, namely that differential between Welsh language education and education through the medium of Welsh, what do you think could be the unintended consequences of that on the parental perception perhaps?
Dyna'n union beth dwi'n meddwl yw un o'r canlyniadau anfwriadol, os ydych chi'n rhiant sydd eisiau gwneud dewis i'ch plentyn. Hynny yw, gadewch inni fod yn glir: os ydych chi'n anfon eich plentyn i addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, fe fyddwch chi'n ddwyieithog. Does dim sicrwydd y dewch chi allan o addysg ddwyieithog—addysg ddwyieithog fel y mae hi ar hyn o bryd—yn siarad y Gymraeg a'r Saesneg gyda'r un rhuglder a hyder. Felly, addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg sy'n creu siaradwyr dwyieithog. Felly, dyna un o'r—. Hefyd, mae'n ymwneud â'r ffaith y byddai'n hawdd iawn inni ddweud, 'Mae pob ysgol yn cynnig addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg', ond wrth gwrs, nid dyna fydd canlyniad y Ddeddf, ac nid dyna, ychwaith, rŷn ni am ei weld. Dwi yn sicr am weld ysgolion addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg yn datblygu ac yn cael eu meithrin ymhellach ac wrth gwrs gwella'r ddarpariaeth mewn ysgolion Saesneg eu prif iaith a dwyieithog.
That's exactly what I think one of the unintended consequences is, if you are a parent who wants to make a choice for your child. That is, let us be clear: if you send your child to Welsh-medium education, that pupil will be bilingual. There is no guarantee that you will emerge from bilingual education, as it currently exists, as a speaker of Welsh and English with the same level of fluency and confidence. So, it's Welsh-medium education that creates bilingual speakers. And so—. Also, it relates to the fact that it would be very easy for us to say, 'Well, every school provides Welsh-medium education at some level', but, of course, that won't be the upshot of the legislation, and that's not what we want to see either. Certainly, I want to see Welsh-medium schools developing and nurtured further and also of course to see improved provision in primarily English language and bilingual schools.
Diolch.
Thank you.
Okay, thank you. We'll go back online now to Lee, please.
Thank you. I just want to touch on the National Institute for Learning Welsh. You say, understandably, in your evidence that you're concerned about the budget and you'd like the explanatory memorandum to say more about that, although I'd have thought the explanatory memorandum would generally not cover that in detail; that's a matter for budgets. But I wonder if you would expand on that.
But also, you say something—[Inaudible.]—you say that the duties and functions placed on the new institute would compensate for the serious loss of students studying in universities outside of Wales. Can you say a little bit more about your concern there, please?
Ie, dwi ddim yn siŵr am ail ran y cwestiwn, a ydw i wedi sôn am hynny. Fodd bynnag, o ran sefydlu'r athrofa, y pwynt roeddwn i am ei wneud mewn gwirionedd oedd, os ŷn ni'n disgwyl i'r athrofa wneud y pethau gwych y gall yr athrofa ei wneud, mae angen iddo gael cyllideb ddigonol. Mae'r memorandwm yn sôn rhywfaint am y ffaith does dim modd ar hyn o bryd i'r gyllideb fod yn eglur oherwydd newidiadau i'r haen ganol, er enghraifft, felly, dwi'n deall y rhesymau am hynny, ond y pwynt roeddwn i am ei wneud oedd, os ydym ni am i'r athrofa wneud y gwaith dwi'n credu y gall ei wneud, mae angen sicrhau ei bod hi'n cael cyllideb ddigonol, gan sylweddoli'r sefyllfa gyllidol rŷn i gyd ynddo fe. Serch hynny, os ydym ni am i bethau da ddigwydd, mae angen inni sylweddoli bod angen buddsoddi ynddi hi.
Dwi ddim yn siŵr—. Dwi ddim yn meddwl fy mod i wedi cyfeirio'n benodol at fyfyrwyr yn gadael Cymru, ond—
Yes, I'm not sure about the second part of the question, if I've mentioned that. However, in terms of establishing the institute, the point I really wanted to make, really, was that, if we expect the institute to do the excellent work that we think the institute can do, it needs sufficient funding. The memorandum does mention a little that there's no way at the moment that the budget can be clear because of changes to the middle tier, for example, so, I understand the reasons for that, but the point I wanted to make was that, if we want the institute to do the work that I think it can do, we need to ensure that it receives adequate funding, realising the budgetary position that we are all in. However, if we want good things to happen, we do need to realise that we need to invest in it.
I'm not sure—. I don't think I've referred specifically to students leaving Wales, but—
Forgive me, that's my mistake. I've mixed your evidence up with—[Inaudible.]
Popeth yn iawn. Na, na, dim problem, ond, yn amlwg, dwi ddim eisiau gweld myfyrwyr yn gadael Cymru chwaith.
It's okay. No problem, but, clearly, I don't want to see students leaving Wales either.
Okay. Diolch.
Thank you. Thank you, commissioner, for your time this morning. We really appreciate you joining us and your contribution. You'll be sent a transcript for checking in due course. Diolch.
Diolch yn fawr a phob lwc gyda'r gwaith.
Thank you and best of luck with your work.
We will now take a short break until 10:45.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:20 a 10:43.
The meeting adjourned between 10:20 and 10:43.
Welcome back. We now move on to agenda item 5. This is the third evidence session on the Bill. Our witnesses are joining us virtually. You are very welcome. Please can the witnesses introduce themselves and also outline briefly what, if any, involvement they've had in the development of the Bill?
Mi wnaf i gychwyn, iawn? Felly, yr Athro Enlli Thomas, Prifysgol Bangor. Dwi yn aelod o gyngor partneriaeth y Gymraeg, felly mae yna lot o drafodaethau wedi bod ynghylch y Bil yn y cyfarfodydd hynny, ond, heblaw am hynny, dim unrhyw ymwneud penodol efo'r Bil.
Shall I start? I'm Professor Enlli Thomas from Bangor University. I am a member of the Welsh language partnership council, so there has been a great deal of discussion on the Bill in those meetings, but, other than that, I've had no particular involvement with the Bill.
Bore da. Gwenno Ffrancon ydw i. Dwi'n gyfarwyddwr Academi Hywel Teifi ym Mhrifysgol Abertawe, a hefyd yn ddirprwy is-ganghellor cynorthwyol ar gyfer y Gymraeg, treftadaeth a diwylliant, ac, o ran ymwneud â'r Bil, roeddwn i'n rhan o'r tîm oedd yn ymateb i'r Papur Gwyn wrth baratoi ar gyfer y cyfnod hwn ar ran Prifysgol Abertawe.
Good morning. I'm Gwenno Ffrancon. I am the director of Academi Hywel Teifi at Swansea University, and also deputy pro vice-chancellor for the Welsh language, heritage and culture, and, in terms of engagement with the Bill, I was part of the team that responded to the White Paper prepared for this Bill on behalf of Swansea University.
Thank you. I'll now ask Members to ask questions, and I'll begin. Could you outline your initial thoughts on the Bill and the extent to which it will support the work and progress required to achieve the 'Cymraeg 2050' target of a million Welsh speakers, please? I don't know which one wants to go first.
Af i gyntaf os wyt ti eisiau, Gwenno.
I'll go first, if that's okay, Gwenno.
Okay.
Diolch yn fawr. Felly, at ei gilydd, dwi’n—[Anghlywadwy.]—pellgyrhaeddol ac arloesol i’r Gymraeg mewn rhai mannau, buaswn i’n dweud, i sicrhau bod yna amodau ffafriol, fel mae 'Cymraeg 2050' yn sôn amdanynt, yn eu lle a fydd yn helpu gwireddu prif nodau ac amcanion y strategaeth honno. Ond, yn bersonol, dwi’n meddwl bod gosod lefel statudol i’r amodau hynny o fewn beth ydy un o’r meysydd pwysicaf a mwyaf allweddol i lwyddiant y Gymraeg, sef y gyfundrefn addysg, yn rhoi’r cyfle gorau inni wireddu thema un a dau 'Cymraeg 2050', cyrraedd y miliwn o siaradwyr a chynyddu’r defnydd. Ac os cawn ni hwn yn iawn, yna mae gennym ni gyfle euraidd yn fan yma, dwi’n meddwl, i sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn ffynnu ac yn gynaliadwy dros y blynyddoedd i ddod.
Thank you. Generally speaking, I think this is far-reaching and groundbreaking for the Welsh language in certain areas, in ensuring that there are favourable conditions, such as those mentioned in 'Cymraeg 2050', that will help to achieve the main aims and ambitions of that strategy. But, personally, I think providing those conditions on a statutory level in one of the most important areas for the success of the Welsh language, namely the education system, provides us with the best opportunity of delivering themes one and two in 'Cymraeg 2050', reaching a million speakers and increasing language use. If we get this right, then we have a golden opportunity here, I think, to ensure that the Welsh language prospers and is sustainable over coming years.
Fe ddof innau i mewn i ategu’n union beth mae Enlli wedi ei gyfleu y bore yma. Yn sicr, mae’r Bil yn un i’w chroesawu; mae’n cynnig addewid o gydweithio traws-sectorol o fewn addysg a byddai hynny’n fuddiol tu hwnt o ran hyrwyddo’r Gymraeg. Mae mannau lle dwi’n teimlo bod yna le i gryfhau’r hyn sydd wedi ei amlinellu, ac rwy’n siŵr y gallwn ni ddod at hynny maes o law, ond yn gyffredinol mae croeso cynnes yn cael ei gynnig i’r Bil ar y pwynt yma.
I'll come in to endorse exactly what Enlli has conveyed. Certainly, the Bill is something we welcome; it offers the promise of cross-sector working in education, and that would be very useful in promoting the Welsh language. There are areas where I feel that things could be strengthened in what's been outlined, and I'm sure we could get to that in due course, but, in general, there is a warm welcome for the Bill at this point.
Thank you. The Bill makes the target of a million Welsh speakers a statutory target. What is the value of placing the target on the statute book?
Fe ddof innau i mewn y tro cyntaf fan hyn nawr. Roeddwn i’n gwrando ar y cyfarfod yr wythnos diwethaf a Gweinidog y Gymraeg, Mark Drakeford, yn nodi’n glir ei farn e fod gosod targed ar y llyfr statud yn gwarchod y targed hwnnw ac yn ei atgyfnerthu fe o fewn cylch gwaith a gofalaeth Gweinidogion Llywodraeth Cymru, ac efallai awdurdodau lleol, ac yn rhoi statws pellach i’r Gymraeg. Dwi’n teimlo bod hwnna yn gywir, ac mae gosod hyn ar y llyfr statud yn mynd i alluogi hynny. Mae fe’n mynd i fod yn fodd o sicrhau bod rhanddeiliaid ym mhob rhan o’r system addysg orfodol yn ymrwymo i gyflawni, ac yn sicr fe fydd e’n fodd o grisialu’r meddwl tuag at gyflawni’r nod. Mae fe’n rhoi sicrwydd i’r amcan ac mae’n allweddol bod y fframwaith ar gyfer cyflawni hynny, felly, yn addas at bwrpas. Dyna le byddwn i, efallai, wedyn yn cynnig rhai awgrymiadau ar gyfer cryfhau hynny. Wn i ddim os ŷch chi eisiau i fi amlinellu’r rheini ar y pwynt hwn, neu ddod nôl ar hynny.
If I could go first this time. I was listening to last week's session, and the Minister for the Welsh language, Mark Drakeford, set out clearly his view that having a target on the statute book protected that target and actually reinforced it within the remit of Welsh Ministers, and perhaps local authorities too, and gave further status to the Welsh language. I think that's accurate, and that having this on statute will allow that. It will be a means of ensuring that stakeholders in all parts of the compulsory education system commit to delivering, and it'll be a means of crystallising our thoughts in delivering the goal. It provides some assurances in terms of the objective, and it is key, therefore, that the framework for delivery is fit for purpose. That's where I perhaps would make some suggestions to strengthen that. I don't know if you want me to outline those at this point, or shall we come back to those?
Yes, please, if you would.
Dwi jest yn teimlo efallai fod yna le i gryfhau rhai o’r drivers ar gyfer cyflawni’r amcanion i gyd. Efallai dydyn nhw ddim i gyd wedi eu hadnabod yn effeithiol. Mae angen cadarnhau’r targedau penodol o fewn y statud o fewn y sector a thynhau’r amserlenni, dwi’n teimlo, er mwyn sicrhau na fydd llithro wrth geisio cyrraedd y nod, sef beth fydd yn darged statudol o filiwn o siaradwyr erbyn 2050. Diolch.
I just feel that perhaps there is scope to strengthen some of the drivers for delivering all of the objectives. Perhaps they all haven't been identified effectively. We need to confirm the specific targets in the legislation within the sector and to tighten the timetable to ensure there's no slippage in delivering the aim, namely what will be a statutory target of a million Welsh speakers by 2050. Thank you.
Thank you. Should the provisions in section 3 of the Bill regarding data collection on the number of Welsh speakers be expanded to include calculating use of Welsh and will this provide sufficient data to analyse progress?
Ddof i i mewn yn gyntaf yn fanna, te, ie, Gwenno? Wrth gwrs, mae sut rydym ni’n mesur a chofnodi siaradwyr yn y bôn yn dibynnu ar bwrpas y data yna. At bwrpas gwleidyddol, efallai dydy cofnodi defnydd ddim yn mynd i ddangos cymaint o gynnydd a chofnodi nifer, ond os mai beth rydym ni eisiau ei wybod ydy os oes yna gynnydd cynaliadwy sydd yn gynnydd ystyrlon yna mae’n allweddol ein bod ni’n mesur defnydd. Felly, dyna sydd yn rhoi gwybodaeth i ni. Y defnydd sydd yn rhoi gwybodaeth inni am fywiogrwydd, os ydych chi eisiau, yr iaith, ac mae gallu mesur a chofnodi bywiogrwydd iaith yn ein helpu ni wedyn i symud y naratif i ffwrdd o’r Gymraeg fel iaith y lleiafrif, iaith dan fygythiad ac yn y blaen. Buasai hynny wedyn yn rhoi statws llawer iawn cryfach i’r iaith, felly. Yn bersonol, mi fuaswn i’n dweud ein bod ni angen sicrhau bod y mesuryddion yna yn cynnwys beth rydym ni’n ei anelu tuag ato fo yng ngham 1 a cham 2 o strategaeth 2050.
I'll start here, then, Gwenno. Of course, how we measure and record speakers depends on what the purpose of that data is. Perhaps, for political purposes, recording use isn't going to show as much progress as recording the number, but if what we want to know is if there's been a sustainable increase that's a meaningful increase then it is key that we measure the use of the language. So, that's what provides us with that information. Use of a language gives us information about the viability of the language, and that helps us then to move the narrative away from the Welsh language as a minority language, as a language that's under threat and so on. That would then provide a much stronger status to the language. So, personally, I would say that we need to ensure that those indicators include what we're aiming for in step 1 and step 2 of the 2050 strategy.
Os caf i ddod i mewn a chytuno gyda hynny, rwy’n credu oes, mae angen cofnodi’r niferoedd, ond, o ran y defnydd, dyna lle rŷn ni’n sicrhau [cywiriad: lle rŷn ni angen sicrhau] bod yr iaith yn un fyw a rwy’n teimlo efallai fod yna le o fewn y Bil i edrych ar gydweithio neu adnabod sut y gallwn ni fod yn cwmpasu hyn o fewn y—[Anghlywadwy.]—[cywiriad: o fewn y Bil a sicrhau cydweithio gyda’r sefydliadau] sy'n cylchdroi o gwmpas y sector addysg. Felly, ie, addysg sy'n greiddiol i'r Bil hwn, ond mae yna gynifer o sefydliadau sy'n cefnogi'r broses o gaffael iaith nad ydyn nhw, efallai, yn sefydliadau uniongyrchol mewn cyd-destun addysgiadol, ond maen nhw yno i gefnogi datblygiad addysg a throsi'r sgiliau sy'n cael eu datblygu i mewn i rywbeth cymunedol. Rwy'n meddwl yn benodol am y canolfannau Cymraeg, mentrau iaith, Urdd Gobaith Cymru a gwasanaethau ieuenctid a dysgu gydol oes yn yr awdurdodau lleol. Mae yna le, efallai, i edrych ar hynny o fewn y Bil.
If I could come in and agree with that, I think, yes, we need to record numbers, but it's language use, that's where we ensure [correction: where we need to ensure] that the language is viable and I think there is scope within the Bill to look at co-operation or how we identify and encapsulate this in—[Inaudible.]—[correction: in the Bill and ensure co-operation with the organisations] around the education system. So, education is at the core of this Bill, but there are so many organisations and institutions that support language acquisition that aren't directly educational establishments, but are there to support the development of the Welsh language and to transfer those skills into communities. I'm thinking of the canolfannau Cymraeg, mentrau iaith, Urdd Gobaith Cymru and the lifelong learning provision of the local authorities. So, there is scope to look at that within the Bill, I believe.
Thank you. We'll now move to questions from Cefin Campbell, please.
Bore da ichi. Cefin Campbell sydd yma, Aelod o'r Senedd. Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am y dystiolaeth rŷch chi wedi'i chyflwyno; mae hynny'n ddefnyddiol iawn. Dwi eisiau gofyn cwestiwn cyffredinol i chi, i ddechrau, ar y CEFR, wedyn cwestiynau mwy manwl arno fe. Mae'n amlwg bod y fframwaith yma'n gyfarwydd iawn yng ngwledydd Ewrop. Heblaw am Gymraeg i oedolion, mae e'n gysyniad dieithr iawn. Rŷn ni'n argymell cyflwyno hyn fel fframwaith i'n cyfundrefn addysg ni yng Nghymru. Ydych chi'n croesawu hynny'n gyffredinol? Dyna'r cwestiwn cyntaf dwi eisiau gofyn i chi.
Good morning to you. I'm Cefin Campbell, Member of the Senedd. Thank you very much for the evidence that you have submitted; that is very useful. I want to ask a general question to start with on the CEFR, and then perhaps more detailed questions on that. It's clear that this framework is very familiar to people in European countries. Except for Welsh for adults, it's an unfamiliar concept for some. We are recommending introducing this as a framework for our education system in Wales. Do you welcome that in general? That's the first question I want to ask.
Dof i i mewn yn fanna, os wyt ti eisiau, Gwenno. Yn sicr, dwi'n meddwl un o'r heriau sydd wedi wynebu’r Gymraeg a sut oeddem ni'n mesur llwyddiant y Gymraeg yn y gorffennol oedd y ffaith nad oedd gennym ni'r CEFR. Felly, mae hynny wedi golygu bod ein mesuryddion ni yn disgyn—[Anglywadwy.]—o fyfyrwyr sydd yn astudio TGAU Cymraeg iaith gyntaf, a faint sydd yn astudio'n ail iaith. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae yna gymaint fwy i iaith na hynny, mae yna gymaint fwy i lwyddiant, rhuglder a hyder unigolion i ymwneud efo'r iaith. Wrth gwrs, mae'r CEFR yn cynnig y codau yna a'r labeli o ran sut mae rhywun yn gallu disgrifio'i hun fel siaradwr, ond mae yna hyblygrwydd ychwanegol hefyd i rywbeth fel y CEFR, achos ei fod o'n gontinwwm i gychwyn efo hi, ac mae yna naratif o gwmpas sut rydyn ni'n gallu sicrhau bod ein siaradwyr ni ar gontinwwm. A beth sy'n grêt efo continwwm ydy bod rhywun wastad yn gallu symud yn ei flaen, ac felly mae hynny'n help mawr efo'r syniad yma ein bod ni'n mynd i drio cefnogi dysgwyr i fod yn ymwneud â dysgu'r Gymraeg ar hyd oes. Felly, dwi'n meddwl ei fod o'n bwydo i mewn i'r cysyniad yna'n gyffredinol llawer iawn gwell na beth rydyn ni wedi bod yn ei ddefnyddio yn y gorffennol.
I can come in there, Gwenno. Certainly, one of the challenges that has faced the Welsh language and how we measured the success of the language in the past is the fact that we didn't have the CEFR. That has meant that our indicators have fallen—[Inaudible.]—of students studying GCSE Welsh first language, and how many study through the medium of the second language. But, of course, there is so much more to language than that, there is so much more in terms of the success, fluency and confidence of individuals in becoming involved with the language. So, the CEFR does provide those codes and those particular labels in terms of how one would describe oneself as a speaker, but there is additional flexibility, too, in the CEFR, because it is a continuum, and there's a narrative around how we can ensure that our speakers are on a continuum. And what's wonderful with a continuum is that one can always make progress. And I think that is of great assistance in terms of this concept of trying to support learners to be involved with and learn Welsh throughout their lives. So I do think that it feeds into that general concept far better than what we've been using in the past.
Mi fyddwn innau'n cytuno gyda hynny, achos nid yn unig mae e'n ein galluogi ni i adnabod lefel cyrhaeddiad o fewn cyd-destun addysg, mae e hefyd yn trosi i mewn i'r byd gweithle, lle mae yna ddealltwriaeth well, wedyn, o'r hyn y gall cyflogwr ei ddisgwyl o ran lefel sgiliau. Ac fel cyflogwr, ym Mhrifysgol Abertawe, rŷn ni yn y broses o gyflwyno'r union fframwaith yma i'n polisïau cyflogaeth ni. Felly fe fyddem ni, fel sefydliad, yn croesawu hynny.
I would also agree with that, because not only does it enable us to identify attainment level within an education context, it also translates into the workplace, where there is a better understanding, then, of what an employer can expect in terms of skill level. And as an employer, at Swansea University, we are in the process of introducing this exact framework into our employment policies. So, as an organisation, we would welcome that.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Yn benodol, yn eich profiad chi o astudio dwyieithrwydd ar lefel Ewropeaidd a'ch dealltwriaeth chi o'r fframwaith CEFR, ydy hi'n realistig disgwyl i blentyn sydd mewn ysgol Saesneg yn bennaf gyrraedd lefel B2 mewn Cymraeg llafar erbyn iddyn nhw gyrraedd oed gadael ysgol?
Thank you very much. Specifically, in your experience of studying bilingualism at a European level and your understanding of the CEFR framework, is it realistic to expect a pupil who is in a primarily English school to reach the B2 level in spoken Welsh by the time they leave school?
Dof i i mewn yn fanna. Gaf i ddarllen dyfyniad gwnes i ddod ar ei draws o'n gynharach yr wythnos yma? Mae'n ddyfyniad ar y cyfryngau cymdeithasol gan Li Wei, sydd yn arbenigwr ym maes amlieithrwydd. Beth mae o'n ei ddweud ydy hyn:
I'll come in there. If I could just read a quote that I came across earlier this week. It's on social media from Li Wei, who is an expert in the area of multilingualism. What he says is this:
'The assumption that the end state of second language learning is monolingualism in the target language is wrong and unachievable. The objective of second language learning is to become bi- or multi-lingual.'
Felly, dwi'n meddwl ei fod yn bwysig ofnadwy, os ydyn ni'n cymeradwyo defnydd o'r CEFR, bod pawb yn ymwybodol o beth mae bod ar wahanol haenau o'r daith ieithyddol yn ei olygu, ac i ba raddau mae gosod disgwyliadau pellgyrhaeddol—. Dwi'n meddwl bod rhoi disgwyliad eithaf pellgyrhaeddol yn beth da i'w wneud, achos mae'n bosib cyrraedd hynny. Os ydyn ni'n gosod y targed yn rhy isel, yna dydyn ni ddim yn symud yn ein blaenau o gwbl. Dwi’n meddwl ei fod yn allweddol bod pobl yn deall yn union beth ydy dysgu iaith a beth mae rhywun yn gallu ei ddisgwyl oddi wrth unigolyn.
Fel roeddwn i’n ei ddweud, beth sy’n dda am y CEFR ydy ei fod o’n amlhaenog, felly mae yna lefelau o'r CEFR lle mae rhywun yn gallu cael gwahanol ddisgrifiadau ynghylch eu hyder nhw’n siarad, eu gallu nhw’n ysgrifenedig, eu dealltwriaeth nhw o’r iaith, ac ati. Felly, dwi’n meddwl bod modd bod ychydig bach yn fwy hyblyg na jest disgwyl bod rhywun yn gorfod cyrraedd rhyw darged penodol a bod rhywun heb lwyddo os nad ydyn nhw’n cyrraedd y darged honno. Felly, dwi’n meddwl bod y naratif o gwmpas hyn jest angen ei ddatblygu dipyn bach ymhellach.
So, I feel it's very important, if we're to approve the use of the CEFR, that everyone is aware of what being on different levels of the linguistic journey means, and to what extent setting expectations that are far-reaching—. I think setting a far-reaching target is a good thing to do, because it's possible to reach that. If we set the target too low, then we’re not moving forward at all. I think it's key that people understand exactly what learning a language entails and what someone can expect from an individual.
As I said, with the CEFR, what's good about it is that it is multilayered, and therefore there are levels of CEFR where someone can have different descriptions that relate to their confidence in speaking, their written ability, their understanding of the language, and so forth. So, I think there is a way of being a little bit more flexible than just expecting that somebody has to reach a specific target and that somebody hasn’t succeeded if they don’t reach that target. So, I think the narrative around this needs to be developed a little bit further.
Sori, doeddwn i ddim yn siŵr os oedd Gwenno eisiau dod i mewn ar y pwynt yna.
Sorry, I didn't know if Gwenno wanted to come in on that point.
Nac ydw.
No.
Dim problem o gwbl. Dr Enlli yn benodol, yn eich tystiolaeth chi, rydych chi’n nodi amheuon am blant yn cyrraedd lefel C1 neu C2 mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg. Allech chi ymhelaethu ychydig bach ar ba sail rydych chi’n dweud hynny?
No problem. Dr Enlli particularly, in your evidence, you set out some doubts around children achieving C1 or C2 level in Welsh-medium schools. Can you expand a little on the basis for those comments?
Dwi’n meddwl bod y sylw yna yn mynd â ni at bwynt arall sy’n allweddol yng nghyd-destun y Bil yn ei gyfanrwydd, sef y gefnogaeth sydd yna ar gyfer y sector cyfrwng Cymraeg. Mae yna bryder gen i bod yna ryw feddylfryd y 1970au bron iawn bod ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg yn ysgolion trochi naturiol a bod jest gollwng plentyn o gartref di-Gymraeg yn y gyfundrefn yna yn golygu bod y plentyn jest yn naturiol yn troi’n siaradwr rhugl a hyderus. Wrth gwrs, dyna’r sector sydd â’r llwyddiant gorau a’r gallu i drosi siaradwyr i fod yn siaradwyr hyderus a rhugl, wrth reswm, oherwydd yr ymwneud efo’r Gymraeg, ond ydyn ni’n deall yn union faint o ymwneud efo’r Gymraeg sydd yn digwydd bellach ar lawr y dosbarth gan ystyried yr amrywiaeth o ddisgyblion o wahanol gefndiroedd ieithyddol sydd o fewn yr un dosbarth ac i gyd yn cael eu haddysgu drwy iaith leiafrifol?
Felly, dwi’n meddwl bod yn rhaid i ni fod yn realistig ynghylch beth ydy’r sicrwydd bod rhai o’r plant sydd o gartrefi di-Gymraeg—sydd ddim yn siarad llawer o Gymraeg tu allan i’r dosbarth, weithiau ddim yn defnyddio llawer o Gymraeg o fewn y dosbarth chwaith—i ba raddau mae gosod y targed yna o C1 ac C2 ar gyfer rhai o’r disgyblion yna yn mynd i gael knock-on effects ar y gallu iddyn nhw fod yn gwbl rhugl ac yn siaradwyr B arbennig o dda. Dwi’n meddwl bod hwnnw, ar gyfer rhai disgyblion, yn mynd i fod yn llwyddiant iddyn nhw. Felly, mae jest eisiau ailystyried yn union beth yw’r disgwyliadau, gan ystyried beth ydy’r profiadau mae rhai disgyblion yn eu cael mewn rhai ysgolion mewn rhai ardaloedd penodol yng Nghymru.
I think that comment takes us to another point that is key in terms of the context of the Bill as a whole, which is the support that’s available for the Welsh-medium sector. I have a concern that there is some sort of mindset of the 1970s that Welsh-medium schools are natural immersion schools and that just dropping a child from a non-Welsh speaking background into that regime means that the child will then turn into a proficient and confident Welsh speaker. Of course, that is the sector that has the greatest success and the ability to turn speakers into confident and fluent speakers, because of the involvement with the Welsh language, but do we really understand how much involvement with the Welsh language is now happening at classroom level, given the range and variation of pupils from different linguistic abilities that are within the same class, and all being educated through a minority language?
So, I think we have to be realistic in terms of what is the assurance that some children who are from non-Welsh speaking backgrounds—who don't speak much Welsh outside the classroom, perhaps not using Welsh within the classroom either—in what way is setting that target of C1 or C2 for some of those pupils going to have a knock-on effect on their ability to be completely fluent and be very good B speakers. I think that that, for some pupils, is going to be a success for them. So, I think we just need to reconsider what the expectations are, given the linguistic experiences of some pupils in some schools in some areas of Wales.
Iawn, diolch yn fawr.
Okay, thank you very much.
Thank you. I think Lee wanted to come in here.
Thank you. Just briefly on a related point. Professor Thomas, in your written evidence, you mention that there is no guidance regarding ALN children in the immersion units. I wonder if you'd just elaborate a little bit about your point.
Dwi'n meddwl nid yn unig yn y Bil yma, ond mewn nifer o ddogfennau eraill, pan fo’r cyfeiriad yn cael ei wneud at blant efo anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, yn aml iawn mae’r cyfeiriad yn fyr ofnadwy, a dwi’n meddwl ei fod yn anodd penderfynu beth yn union ydy’r gefnogaeth sydd yn angenrheidiol yn y cyd-destun yna. Yn y cyd-destun Cymreig, dwi’n meddwl ei bod hi’n eithaf teg dweud bod yna bryder ymysg rhieni am blant sydd efo anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, ac mae’r ddadl yma wedi codi yn Iwerddon efo’r busnes o fedru eithrio allan o ddysgu’r Wyddeleg o fewn y sector yn fanna.
Ond y gwir plaen ydy bod yna dystiolaeth yn dangos bod sicrhau bod y plentyn yn datblygu'n ddwyieithog, ac yn cael profiadau dwyieithog, yn allweddol, ond mae angen mynd fesul plentyn, ac edrych yn fanwl ar anghenion y plentyn. Ond does yna ddim llawer o arweiniad i athrawon. Ac wrth gwrs, pan ydyn ni'n sôn am anghenion dysgu ychwanegol, rydyn ni'n sôn am amrywiaeth eang iawn o blant sydd jest efallai ddim yn arbennig o dda efo'r iaith yn ysgrifenedig, ac yn y blaen, ac eto mae yna rai eraill wedyn sydd efo anghenion sydd ddim byd i wneud efo iaith. Felly, mae yna amrywiaeth eang yn fanna, ond dwi ddim yn meddwl bod yna—. Wel, does dim cyfeiriad yn y Bil, beth bynnag.
I think not only in this Bill but also in a number of other documents, when reference is made to children with additional learning needs, very often it’s a very brief reference, and I think it is difficult to understand exactly what support is necessary in that context. In the Welsh context, I think it would be quite fair to say that there is concern among parents about children with additional learning needs, and this issue has come up in Ireland with the issue of being able to opt out from the teaching of Irish in the sector there.
But the truth of the matter is that there is evidence that demonstrates that ensuring that the child develops bilingually and has bilingual experiences is crucial, but you need to look at it on a case-by-case basis, and to look at the individual child's needs. But there isn't much guidance for teachers here. And, of course, when we're talking about ALN, we are talking about a very broad range of children, some who perhaps don't cope well with written language, and then there are others who will have needs that are nothing to do with language. So, there's a broad range there, and I don't think there is—. Well, there's no reference to that in the Bill, anyway.
I take from that that you think there should be additional guidance. Do you think that should be statutory guidance within the Bill, or can that sit outside of the Bill?
Buaswn i'n licio gweld rhyw fath o gyfeiriad ato fo yn y Bil. O ran y canllawiau, dwi'n siŵr bod yna le i'r rheini gael eu datblygu'n well mewn guidance eraill sydd yn edrych yn benodol ar anghenion dysgu ychwanegol.
I would like to see some reference to it in the Bill. In terms of the guidance, I'm sure that that could be better developed in other guidance that looks specifically at ALN.
Ocê. Diolch.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. I'll now bring in Tom Giffard, please.
Diolch yn fawr. Bore da. Beth yw eich barn chi ar y categorïau iaith a fydd yn cael eu cymhwyso i ysgolion o dan y Bil? A ydych chi o'r farn bod hwn yn gam ymlaen o'r trefniadau presennol a nodir mewn canllawiau anstatudol?
Thank you very much. Good morning. What are your views on the language categories that will be applied to schools under the Bill? Do you believe this is a step forward from the current arrangements set out in non-statutory guidance?
Fe wnaf i ymateb yn fyr drwy ddweud ei fod yn gam ymlaen o'r categorïau sydd gyda ni ar hyn o bryd, ac fe ddylai fe arwain at gynnydd—cynnydd o ran yr ysgolion o fewn y categorïau hynny, a chynnydd i symud ymlaen drwy'r categorïau iaith, a dyna beth sy'n allweddol i'w sicrhau yn y cyd-destun yma. Mae'n rhaid rhoi'r ysgolion yna ar gontinwwm iaith, fel roedd Enlli yn sôn, a mapio'n glir y camau i alluogi'r cynnydd yna yn erbyn y targedau statudol. Efallai y byddwn i'n dadlau na ddylem ddibynnu ar Weinidogion yn amrywio neu'n gallu bod yn gyfnewidiol yn eu pwyslais ar y targedau hynny, a bod y targedau hynny'n cael eu gosod yn y Bil yn glir, ac yn amlinellu'r gefnogaeth wedyn fydd ar gael i wireddu hynny.
I'll respond briefly by saying that it's a step forward in terms of the categories we have at the moment, and it should lead to progress—progress in terms of the schools within those categories, and progress in moving through those categories too, and that's what's crucial in this context. We have to put those schools on a language continuum, as Enlli mentioned, and to clearly map the steps to allow that progress to take place against the statutory targets. Perhaps I would argue that we shouldn't rely on Ministers varying the focus provided to those targets, and that those targets should be placed clearly in the Bill, and the support that will be available to deliver that.
Dwi'n cytuno efo beth mae Gwenno'n ei ddweud. Mae symlrwydd y system sydd yn cael ei gynnig dwi'n meddwl i'w gymeradwyo. Achos dwi'n ymwybodol bod yna athrawon yn y sector addysg ar hyn o bryd sydd ddim yn berffaith siŵr os mai ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg, ysgol ddwyieithog neu ysgol cyfrwng Saesneg ydy'r ysgol maen nhw'n gweithio ynddi hi.
I agree with what Gwenno has said. The simplicity of the system that's being proposed I think is to be commended. Because I am aware that there are teachers in the education sector currently that aren't perfectly sure whether the school they're working in is a Welsh-medium school, a bilingual school or an English-medium school.
Diolch. Mae'r Bil yn pennu isafswm darpariaeth addysg Gymraeg y mae'n rhaid ei darparu mewn ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg, ond dim isafswm o'r fath ar gyfer ysgolion dwy iaith neu ysgolion Cymraeg yn bennaf. A ydych chi'n pryderu o gwbl bod y Bil yn canolbwyntio'n ormodol ar ysgolion cyfrwng Saesneg ar ben isaf y sbectrwm, a dim digon ar sicrhau bod disgyblion yn datblygu eu sgiliau Cymraeg yn llawn mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg?
Thank you. The Bill sets a minimum amount of Welsh language education provision that must be provided in primarily English language, partly Welsh schools, but no such minimum amount for dual language or primarily Welsh language schools. Are you concerned at all that the Bill focuses overly on English-medium schools at the lower end of the spectrum, and not enough on ensuring pupils develop their Welsh language skills in Welsh-medium schools?
Fe wnaf i ddod i mewn yn fanna, os wyt ti eisiau, Gwenno. Oherwydd bod y ffocws ar gynyddu niferoedd, wrth gwrs mae'r ffocws ar y sector cyfrwng Saesneg a'r isafswm sydd wedi cael ei osod yn fanna. Fel roeddwn i'n ei ddweud yn flaenorol, dwi'n meddwl bod yna gamddealltwriaeth o beth yn union sydd yn mynd ymlaen mewn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg er mwyn gallu adnabod yn union beth fyddai isafswm a fuasai'n caniatáu i'r disgyblion fod yn rhugl ddwyieithog yn y ddwy iaith. Felly, oes, buaswn i'n dweud bod yna dipyn bach mwy o bwyslais ar yr ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg.
If I can come in there first, Gwenno. Because the focus is on increasing numbers, of course the focus naturally falls on the English-medium sector and the baseline set there. As I said earlier, I think there's been a misunderstanding of what exactly is happening in Welsh-medium schools in order to identify exactly what the baseline would be to allow those pupils to be entirely fluent in both languages. So, I would say, yes, there is a little more emphasis on the primarily English language schools in the Bill.
Tom, is it okay if Cefin comes in here, please? Thank you.
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Jest ar gefn y cwestiwn gan Tom, rŷch chi, Dr Enlli, yn eich tystiolaeth, wedi nodi—a dwi'n mynd i ddyfynnu fan hyn—fod y gofyniad lleiaf o 10 y cant ar gyfer ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg, rhannol Gymraeg yn amwys, a bod angen gwaith meddwl pellach ar hynny. A fyddech chi jest yn gallu esbonio beth yn union rŷch chi'n ei feddwl ynghylch y ffaith bod y 10 y cant yn amwys?
Thank you very much. Just on the back of the question from Tom, Dr Enlli, in your evidence, you have noted—and I'm just going to quote here—that the minimum 10 per cent requirement for primarily English, partly Welsh schools is vague and needs further thought. Would you be able to just explain what exactly you mean in terms of the fact that that 10 per cent is ambiguous?
Ydy. Hynny ydy, ai 10 y cant o'r diwrnod, ai 10 y cant o'r wythnos, ai 10 y can't o'r bynciau—beth yn union ydy'r syniad fanna? Achos fy nealltwriaeth i ydy mai'r bwriad ydy cynyddu ymwneud y disgyblion efo'r Gymraeg, ond mae yna, wrth gwrs, bob math o ffyrdd o wneud hynny sydd efallai yn mynd i fod yn fwy buddiol i ddisgyblion, os ydy'r ymwneud hynny'n digwydd, efallai, yn y peuoedd mwy cymdeithasol sydd yn digwydd yn yr ysgolion.
Hefyd, mae'r 10 y cant yna'n gorfod cael mewnbwn o ryw fath gan yr athrawon, ac os nad ydy'r gweithlu addysg yn rhugl yn y Gymraeg mewn rhai o'r ysgolion hynny, yna mae yna ffyrdd gwahanol eto y dylid mynd i'r afael â'r 10 y cant yna. Rydyn ni'n byw mewn byd digidol, felly mae yna bob math o ffyrdd o wneud hynny. Ond buaswn i'n meddwl, pe buaswn i'n gweithio mewn ysgol prif iaith Saesneg, fuaswn i ddim yn siwr iawn beth sy'n cyfri, a dwi'n meddwl bod yna ffordd o wneud y tick-box a gallu dweud ar bapur fod 10 y cant yn cael ei gynnig, ond p'un ai'r 10 y cant yna yn fuddiol ar gyfer y bwriad sydd tu ôl iddo fo, dwi ddim yn siwr.
Yes. Is it 10 per cent of the school day, 10 per cent of the school week, 10 per cent of subjects—what exactly is the concept there? Because my understanding is that the intention is to increase pupil engagement with the Welsh language, but, of course, there are all sorts of ways of doing that that could perhaps be more beneficial to pupils, if that engagement happened in the more social spheres within schools, for example.
Also, that 10 per cent does have to have some sort of input from teachers, and if the education workforce isn't fluent in Welsh in some of those schools, then there are different approaches again in terms of addressing that 10 per cent. We live in a digital world, so there are all sorts of ways of doing that. But I would have thought that if I were working in a primarily English language school, I wouldn't know exactly what would count towards that 10 per cent, and I think there's a way of ticking the box and saying on paper that 10 per cent is provided, but whether that 10 per cent is beneficial as regards delivering its ambition, I'm not entirely sure.
Os caf i neidio i mewn ar y pwynt yna ac ychwanegu at yr hyn mae Enlli wedi'i ddweud, a fyddai hwnna'n iawn, Gadeirydd?
If I could just jump in on that point and add to what Enlli has just said, would that be okay, Chair?
Yes, yes.
Diolch. Dwi'n cytuno bod yna amwysedd o gwmpas y categorïau yn gyffredinol, dwi'n teimlo, ac o ran y pwynt yna ynglŷn â throthwy 10 y cant o fewn ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg, yr hyn fyddem ni'n dymuno ei weld, ar ôl eglurder pellach ynglŷn â beth mae hwnna'n meddwl, yw bod yna fesur o fewn y Bil i adnabod dros gyfnod o amser symud yr ysgolion yna'n uwch na 10 y cant. Fyddem ni ddim dymuno gweld bod ysgolion yn aros ar y trothwy yna, gan feddwl eu bod nhw wedi cyrraedd y nod. Y gobaith yw cynyddu'r hyn y bydden nhw'n ei darparu fel ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg.
Os caf i wedyn jest nodi'r safbwynt ar gategorïau prif iaith Cymraeg, a'ch cwestiwn chi ynglŷn â sut mae'r pwyslais, o bosib, ar yr ysgolion sydd ddim yn Gymraeg neu brif iaith Cymraeg, byddwn i, efallai, yn dymuno gweld y disgwyliadau ar ysgolion y categori prif iaith Cymraeg yn cael eu diffinio'n gliriach o fewn y Bil hefyd, nodi yn glir mai addysgu cyfrwng Cymraeg yn unig fyddai yn yr ysgol yna, heblaw am ddysgu'r Saesneg fel pwnc, a darparu eglurder a gwarchod cyfle i ddisgyblion cyfrwng Cymraeg ddatblygu sgiliau yn llawn trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, felly. Dyna yw'r her benodol, dwi'n teimlo, ar hyn o bryd o safbwynt y sector cyfrwng Cymraeg, ac fel roedd Enlli wedi cyfeirio'n gynharach, mae hynna'n darparu heriau i'n disgyblion ni os nad ydyn nhw'n cael yr amgylchedd llwyr Gymraeg o fewn eu haddysg.
Un elfen sy'n dylanwadu arnom ni fel prifysgolion yw, ar hyn o bryd, does yna ddim eglurder o gwmpas y galw ar ysgolion i ddysgu pynciau STEM, er enghraifft, trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Y disgwyliad yn gyhoeddus, o bosibl, yw bod y pynciau hynny'n cael eu haddysgu trwy'r Gymraeg o fewn ysgolion prif iaith Cymraeg. Dyw hwnna ddim ar draws y bwrdd, ar draws Cymru i gyd. Felly, mae hynny'n peri her sylweddol i addysg uwch sy'n trio hyfforddi meddygon y dyfodol, ein gwyddonwyr, ac athrawon y dyfodol a sicrhau eu bod nhw'n gallu symud yn eu blaenau i gyflwyno'r pynciau pwysig yma o fewn eu hysgolion eu hunain.
Thank you. I agree that there is ambiguity around the categories in general, I feel, and in terms of that point with regard to the 10 per cent threshold in primarily English schools, what we would wish to see, after further clarity regarding what this means, is a measure within the Bill to identify over a period of time the moving of those schools to a level higher than 10 per cent. I wouldn't wish to see schools staying on that threshold, thinking they'd reached the target. The hope would be to increase what they provide as primarily English language schools.
If I could then just note the primarily Welsh language category, and your question regarding how the emphasis possibly is on the schools that aren't primarily Welsh language, I would, perhaps, wish to see the expectations in that primary Welsh language category defined more clearly within the Bill, clearly noting that it would be only Welsh-medium education delivered in that school, except for teaching English as a subject, and provide clarity and safeguard the opportunities for those pupils to develop fully their Welsh language skills. That's the specific challenge currently, I would say, in terms of the Welsh-medium sector, and, as Enlli mentioned, that presents challenges for our pupils if they don't have that completely Welsh environment in their education.
One element that influences us as universities is that, currently, there is no clarity around the need for schools to teach STEM subjects through the medium of Welsh. The expectation in public, possibly, is that those subjects are taught through the medium of Welsh in primarily Welsh language schools. That's not true across the board and across Wales, and that presents another challenge for higher education as it tries to train future doctors and scientists, and future teachers, and ensure that they can move forward to introduce these important subjects in their own schools.
Thank you. Tom.
Diolch. I'm just going to change the order of my questions, I think, just to stay on this 10 per cent. I'm just wondering what your views are on these primarily English schools' ability to apply for these temporary exemptions to that 10 per cent Welsh language education, really. Have you got any firm views on how that would work, how that might not work, and so on?
Wel, dwi ddim yn meddwl mod i wedi deall yn iawn o'r Bil beth yn union sydd wrth wraidd y cynnig, ond yn sicr dydw i ddim yn cefnogi'r syniad yna, os nad oes yna resymau penodol iawn, iawn, iawn. Fel dwi'n dweud, dwi'n ymwybodol o'r drafodaeth hir sydd wedi bod efo'r Wyddeleg ynghlych y gallu i eithrio allan, yn enwedig yng nghyd-destun plant ag anghenion arbennig. Ond, eto, dydw i ddim yn derbyn y ddadl yna mewn rhai peuoedd, chwaith.
Felly, dwi ddim yn meddwl bod angen i unrhyw ysgol eithrio o'r isafswm, a fedraf i ddim cweit feddwl, o beth sydd yn y Bil, beth fyddai'n arwain ysgol i ofyn am hynny, heblaw bod y gweithlu angenrheidiol ddim yna i fedru cynnig y 10 y cant. Ond, fel dwi'n dweud, does dim rhaid cael unigolion sydd yn rhugl i roi'r Gymraeg i ddisgyblion ac i gael y disgyblion i ymwneud â'r Gymraeg, sef beth ydy pwrpas cynyddu'r oriau yna yn y lle cyntaf.
Well, I don't think I fully understood from the Bill what exactly is at the heart of that proposal, but certainly I wouldn't support that concept unless there were very, very specific reasons for its use. As I say, I'm aware of the lengthy debate that there's been in terms of the Irish language and the ability to opt out, particularly in the context of children with ALN. But, again, I don't accept that argument in certain spheres either.
So, I don't think that any school should be exempt from the minimum, and I can't quite imagine, from what's in the Bill, what would actually lead to a school asking for that, unless the workforce wasn't in place to provide that 10 per cent. But, as I say, you don't have to have individuals who are fluent in order to introduce the Welsh language to pupils and to engage those pupils with the Welsh language, which is the purpose of increasing those hours in the first instance.
Ac fe fyddwn innau yn cefnogi'r safbwynt yna, ac yn nodi, pe byddai'r eithriadau yn aros o fewn y Bil, y byddai angen sicrhau cyfnodau amser byr iawn ar gyfer unrhyw eithriadau fel bod yr amserlen ar gyfer yr ysgol benodol yna ddim yn llithro, i sicrhau eu bod nhw'n cyrraedd amcan y statud wedyn.
I would also support that viewpoint, and would note that if the exemptions remained in the Bill, there would be a need to ensure very short periods for those exemptions so that the timetable for that specific school didn't slip, to ensure that they achieved the statutory aim.
Tom, could Cefin come back in here?
Yes.
Thank you.
Diolch. Jest i fynd nôl at y pwyntiau olaf yna, gan ystyried bod y Gymraeg yn bwnc gorfodol yn ein hysgolion ni'n barod, a byddai rhai yn dadlau ein bod ni eisoes yn darparu rhyw 10 y cant o ran addysgu'r Gymraeg, ydy'r 10 y cant yma yn ddigonol yn eich barn chi? Ac yn arbennig, Dr Enlli, roeddech chi'n sôn am y ffaith ei fod e'n amwys. A fyddech chi eisiau rhoi arweiniad i'r pwyllgor ynglŷn â beth fyddech chi'n hoffi gweld y 10 y cant yna yn ei olygu?
Thank you. Just to go back to those final points, given that the Welsh language is a compulsory subject in our schools, and some would argue that we're already providing about 10 per cent as regards teaching Welsh, is this 10 per cent sufficient in your view? And in particular, Dr Enlli, you mentioned the fact that it was ambiguous. Would you want to provide guidance to the committee in terms of what you would like to see that 10 per cent meaning?
Ie, o'i gyflwyno fel yna, mae hwnnw'n bwynt allweddol, onid ydy, sydd jest yn ategu beth roeddwn i'n ei ddweud yn flaenorol, achos y syniad ydy bod y Bil yn sicrhau bod yna rywbeth newydd yn digwydd, rhywbeth sydd ddim wedi bod yn digwydd o'r blaen, achos os ydym ni'n cario ymlaen fel rydym ni ac yn defnyddio'r 10 y cant yna ar gyfer beth sy'n digwydd yn barod, sef dysgu Cymraeg fel pwnc, yna dydyn ni ddim yn mynd i gynyddu siaradwyr o gwbl, achos rydym ni'n gwybod dydy'r sefyllfa fel ag y mae hi ddim yn gweithio. Felly, mae hwn yn gyfle euraidd i gynnig rhywbeth newydd, onid ydy? Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod yna ddarn o waith y gellid ei wneud er mwyn adnabod beth fyddai'r cyfleoedd yna'n gallu bod.
Mae'n siŵr bod yna enghreifftiau allan yn y gwledydd Ewropeaidd ynghylch y math o bethau sydd yn digwydd yn fanna, ac rydym ni wedi, er enghraifft, cael y cysyniad o Gymraeg bob dydd yn adroddiad Sioned Davies flynyddoedd yn ôl. Ond gan fod hwnnw ddim yn statudol ac nad oes arweiniad wedi bod, mae hwnnw i'w weld wedi diflannu. Ac ymgais oedd hwnnw i sicrhau bod pob un pwnc yn gwneud rhywfaint o ddefnydd o'r Gymraeg, hyd yn oed os oedd yr athro neu'r athrawes yn agor y wers yn y Gymraeg a wedyn bod y pwnc yn gael ei ddysgu yn Saesneg. Mae yna ryw strategaethau felly y gellid eu mabwysiadu o dan yr athrofa, er enghraifft, a bod yn rhywbeth fyddai'n gallu helpu yn y cyd-destun yma.
Yes, in putting it in those terms, that's a key point, isn't it, which just echoes what I said previously, because the concept is that the Bill ensures that something new happens, something that hasn't been happening in the past, because if we continue as we have been and use that 10 per cent just for what's already happening, which is teaching Welsh as a subject, then we're not going to increase the number of speakers at all, because we know that the status quo doesn't work. So, this is a golden opportunity to provide something new. So, I think there's a piece of work that could be done in order to identify what those opportunities could be.
I'm sure that there are examples in European nations in terms of the kinds of things that happen there, and, for example, we have that concept of Cymraeg bob dydd, Welsh every day, from the Sioned Davies report years ago. But because that was not statutory and there was no guidance in place, that seems to have disappeared. And that was an attempt to ensure that every subject made some use of the Welsh language, even if the teachers simply opened the lesson in Welsh and it was then taught through the medium of English. There are strategies of that kind that could be adopted under the institute, for example, and that is something that could certainly help in that context.
Thank you. Tom.
Thank you. Just one last one on this 10 per cent exemption, obviously, you mentioned the lack of—sorry, I'm paraphrasing what you said—the lack of clarity around where this might need to be used. So, would you support the Bill listing specific circumstances, if you like, where that 10 per cent exemption would need to be used, and what would they be? You mentioned a lack of workforce and then went on to say, 'Well, actually, workforce isn't that integral because it can still be delivered even if you haven't got necessarily fluent Welsh workforces to be able to deliver it'. So, I'm just wondering what the kinds of exemptions you foresaw potentially being needed would be.
Yr ateb gennyf i ydy 'dim'. Doeddwn i ddim yn gallu meddwl beth fyddan nhw, heblaw am sefyllfa fel y gweithlu ddim yn bod ar gael, ond, fel dwi'n dweud, mae yna ffyrdd o amgylch hynny. Ac efallai dyna eto rywbeth y byddai'r athrofa yn gallu bod yn gefnogol ohono yn cynnig arweiniad i ysgolion ar sut i wneud hyn tra bod y gweithlu ddim yna.
The answer from me is 'none'. I couldn't think what they could be, except for a situation where the workforce isn't available. But, as I say, there are ways around that. And perhaps, again, that's something where the institute could support and offer guidance and leadership to schools on how to do this while the workforce isn't there.
Thank you. In your evidence, you mentioned that there are potential unintended consequences in relation to placing the same language attainments of B1 or B2 for both dual and primarily English schools, partly Welsh schools. Can you just elaborate on that?
Dwi'n gobeithio fy mod i wedi dehongli'r wybodaeth sydd yn y Bil yn gywir yn hynny o beth, ond roeddwn i'n gorfod darllen y darn yna drosodd a throsodd er mwyn trio cael fy mhen rownd beth ydoedd yn union, a gweld os oeddwn i'n iawn bod yr un cyrhaeddiad yn cael ei listio ar gyfer gwahanol fathau o ysgol. Jest bod yn wyliadwurs, dwi'n meddwl, jest o wybod sut mae rhai rhieni yn gwneud penderfyniadau dros ysgolion, ac ati, a'r ystyriaeth sydd gan rieni. Wrth gwrs, mae yna rieni sy'n gefnogol iawn o'r Gymraeg ond eisiau sicrhau bod eu plant nhw'n cael digon o fewnbwn yn Saesneg. Ac felly, os ydyn ni'n dweud, wrth yrru plentyn i ysgol prif iaith Saesneg neu i ysgol dwy iaith, bod eu cyrhaeddiadau nhw yn y Gymraeg yn mynd i fod yr un fath dim ots pa un maen nhw'n mynd iddi, mae gen i bryder bod yna lot o rieni'n mynd i optio i yrru eu plant nhw i ysgolion prif iaith Saesneg yn hytrach nag ysgolion dwy iaith. Ac os nad oes gennym ni ysgolion dwy iaith, dydyn ni ddim yn gallu symud llawer o ysgolion ymlaen i fod yn ysgolion prif iaith Cymraeg yn y dyfodol. Ac efallai, fel dwi'n dweud, fy mod i wedi cam-ddehongli'r darn yna—mi roeddwn i wedi gorfod ei ddarllen fwy nag unwaith.
I hope that I've interpreted the Bill correctly in that regard, but I had to read that section time and time again just get my head around what exactly it entailed, and to consider if I was right in terms of the same attainment being listed for different kinds of schools. I think we just need to be mindful in terms of knowing how some parents make decisions on schools, and so on, and parents' considerations. Of course, there are those parents who are very supportive of the Welsh language but want to ensure that their children have enough education through the medium of English too. So, if we say that, in sending a child to a primarily English school or a dual language school, their attainment through the medium of Welsh will be the same, whichever they choose, then I have some concern that many parents will opt for the primarily English school rather than for the dual language school. And if we don't have dual language schools, then we can't move those schools forward on the continuum to become Welsh-medium schools in future. And perhaps, as I say, I've misinterpreted that particular section—I did have to read it more than once.
Diddorol. Diolch. Ac un cwestiwn i gloi: a yw'r Bil, yn eich barn chi, yn gwneud digon o ran sicrhau bod y gweithlu addysg angenrheidiol yn ei le i gyflawni'r cynnydd yn y ddarpariaeth addysg Gymraeg a ragwelir? Os nad ydyw, sut gellid cryfhau'r Bil?
Interesting. Thank you. And one question to end on: does the Bill, in your view, do enough in terms of ensuring the necessary education workforce is in place to deliver the increased amount of Welsh language education provision envisaged? If not, how could the Bill be strengthened?
Gallaf fi ddod i mewn ar y pwynt hwn, efallai, a nodi bod yna le i gryfhau, dwi'n credu, yr hyn sy'n cael ei amlinellu. Mae yna ddiffyg eglurder, efallai, ynglŷn â ble mae'r hyfforddiant ar gyfer y sgiliau hynny'n gorwedd a'r cyfrifoldeb ar gyfer hynny. Mae yna gymaint o sefydliadau sy'n awyddus i gyfrannu ac i gynorthwyo â'r nod benodol yna—y ganolfan dysgu Cymraeg, y coleg Cymraeg, Cyngor y Gweithlu Addysg, yr awdurdodau lleol, a ninnau yn y prifysgolion. Mae yna ymyrraethau gwahanol yn amlwg yn gallu cael eu cynnig yn ystod gyrfa athro i ddysgu neu loywi'r iaith, er enghraifft—[Anghlywadwy.]—neu ddilyn [cywiriad: er enghraifft, tra'n dilyn] cwrs addysg uwch ar gyfer hyfforddi i fod yn athro, ac eto wedyn yn y gweithle. Felly, byddai hi'n fanteisiol, efallai, i adnabod ble mae'r cyfrifoldebau a'r cyllid penodol ar gyfer hynny yn y Bil.
Fe fyddwn i hefyd yn teimlo bod yna le i gynnwys mwy o randdeiliaid yn yr elfen yma. Mae'r prifysgolion yn eithaf anweladwy o fewn y Bil. Does yna ddim sôn am ymgynghori'n uniongyrchol â phrifysgolion, ac yn benodol ysgolion addysg prifysgolion, lle mae'r gwaith hyfforddi athrawon yn digwydd. Felly, fe fyddwn i'n awgrymu bod hwnna'n un peth i'w ystyried. Ac yn ein hymateb ni fel prifysgol i'r Papur Gwyn yn wreiddiol, fe wnaethom ni gynnig bod lle i ystyried adeiladu cyfnod penodol o gyflwyno'r iaith neu loywi'r iaith o fewn y cwrs hyfforddiant i athrawon—bod hynny'n digwydd cyn eu bod nhw allan yn y gweithle, lle mae pwyslais a phwysau arnyn nhw i gyflawni pethau eraill wrth eu gwaith dydd i ddydd—a bod yna gyfle i ni edrych ymhellach ar yr hyfforddiant y gallen ni fod yn ei gynnig yn ieithyddol yn ystod eu proses o hyfforddi i fod yn athrawon.
If I could come in at that point, maybe, and note that there is scope to strengthen what is being outlined, I think. There is a lack of clarity perhaps in terms of where the training for those skills lies and who is responsible for that training. There are so many organisations who are eager to contribute and to help with that aim—the centre for learning Welsh, the coleg Cymraeg, the Education Workforce Council, local authorities, and us as universities. There are different interventions of course that can be introduced in terms of a teacher's career, to learn or to strengthen their language skills, for example—[Inaudible.]—or [correction: for example, while undertaking] the higher education course to train to become a teacher, and also there's training in the workplace. So, it would be interesting to know, in the Bill, where exactly does the responsibility and funding for that lie.
I would also think that more stakeholders could be included in this element. The universities are relatively invisible within the Bill. There is no talk of consultation directly with universities, and specifically schools of education in universities, where teacher training happens. So, I would suggest that that is one thing that could be considered. And in our response as a university to the White Paper originally, we proposed that there was scope to consider including a specific period in order to introduce the language, or improve language skills, within the initial teacher training course—that this should happen before they're out in the workplace, where there is huge pressure on them to deliver other things in their day-to-day responsibilities—and so that there's an opportunity for us to look further at the training that we could be providing in linguistic terms during their initial teacher training processes.
Okay. Thank you, Tom.
Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. We'll now move on to questions from Gareth Davies, please.
Thank you very much. Good morning, everybody. I want to focus on Part 4 of the Bill this morning, if I may, in my set of questions. The Welsh Government wants to achieve a clear line of accountability at a national, local and school level for the planning of Welsh language education. To what extent do you believe the Bill does this?
Wyt ti eisiau mynd yn gyntaf, Gwenno?
Do you want to go first, Gwenno?
Iawn. Roedd hwn yn faes sydd y tu hwnt i fy maes arbenigedd i, mewn ffordd, ond roeddwn i'n gallu gweld bod yna fwriad i glymu'r elfen ysgol a llywodraethwyr—dwi'n teimlo bod cynnwys y llywodraethwyr yn allweddol—awdurdodau lleol, a wedyn Llywodraeth Cymru. Ar fater pwy ddylai fod yn rhan wedyn o'r ymgynghori ar y fframwaith cenedlaethol, roeddwn i'n teimlo, fel roeddwn i'n dweud, fod yna randdeiliaid ar goll yn benodol o hynny—prifysgolion. Rŷn ni ar hyn o bryd, er enghraifft, yn rhan o'r pwyllgorau CSCA sy'n digwydd o fewn yr awdurdodau lleol—yn sicr, dyna beth yw rôl Prifysgol Abertawe—fel ein bod ni'n gallu edrych ar draws y continwwm addysg. Rŷn ni hefyd yn teimlo ein bod ni'n gallu cyfrannu at elfennau eraill o'r hyn sy'n digwydd o fewn y sector addysg—er enghraifft, dysgu gydol oes. Ac ar hyn o bryd, dyw'r ymgynghoriaeth yna ddim yn cynnwys prifysgolion, nac ychwaith y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. Felly, roeddwn i'n gweld hwnna, efallai, yn rhywbeth ddylai fod yn cael ei gynnwys o fewn y broses yma, ond, fel arall, mae'r llinell atebolrwydd yn rhesymol, jest efallai pwy yw'r rhanddeiliaid sy'n ymgynghori sydd angen sylw pellach.
Yes. This was an area that's beyond my field of expertise, in a way, but I could see that there was an intention to tie in the element of schools and governing bodies—I think including governing bodies is essential—and also local authorities, and then the Welsh Government. On the issue of who then should be part of the consultation on the national framework, I felt that there were stakeholders that were missing specifically from this—universities. Currently, we are part of the WESP committees in local authorities—that's the role, certainly, of Swansea University—so that we can look across the whole education continuum. We also feel that we can contribute to other elements of what's happening within the education sector—for example, lifelong learning. And currently, that consultation doesn't include universities, and neither does it include the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. So, I saw that, perhaps, as something that should be included within this process, but the accountability line is reasonable, just who are the stakeholders that are to be consulted on needs further attention perhaps.
Ie, fel Gwenno, dwi ddim yn teimlo bod fy arbenigedd i yn y darn yma o'r gwaith, felly, a dwi ddim yn gyfarwydd iawn efo'r system bresennol, ond mae beth sydd yn y Bil yn edrych yn synhwyrol i mi, fel dywedodd Gwenno.
Like Gwenno, I don't think that I'm particularly expert in this part of the work, and I'm not particularly familiar with the current system, but what's contained within the Bill looks sensible to me, as Gwenno's outlined.
Yes, I think that's a fair point, and I'm sure we can certainly note that as a committee and make representations to that, because—. Anyway, in my view, if we are to get to 'Cymraeg 2050' and having 1 million Welsh speakers, then surely the scope of the Bill should be all-encompassing and include as many bodies as possible—it seems a no-brainer, in that sense. [Inaudible.]—WESPs as well, the Welsh in education strategic plans, whereby the Welsh Government set the targets on local authorities to plan and implement. Do you have any views on the retention of the name of the WESPs, rather than the WEIP, Welsh in education implementation plan, as proposed initially in the White Paper?
Os dof i mewn fanna, efallai yn benodol ar yr enw. Byddwn i'n cynnig bod 'CSCA' wedi'i wreiddio erbyn hyn, ers cael ei gyflwyno rhai blynyddoedd yn ôl. Mae dealltwriaeth ynglŷn â beth yw e, ac efallai ei fod e'n cwmpasu amcanion y Bil yn well, sef y Gymraeg o fewn y cwricwlwm addysg, ond hefyd y Gymraeg yn gyfrwng addysg. Felly, mae'r teitl, i mi, fel y mae e ar hyn o bryd, yn gweithio.
O ran y cynlluniau hynny a mynd ati i osod targedau, ydy, mae'n rhesymol, ond beth fyddwn i efallai yn ei ddweud yw mai'r ffordd orau o gyrraedd targedau yw cydweithio i'w hadnabod nhw yn y lle cyntaf, ac felly byddwn i efallai yn awgrymu bod yna le i gynnal deialog rhwng yr awdurdodau lleol a'r Llywodraeth, gan fod gan yr awdurdodau lleol ddealltwriaeth o'r heriau maen nhw'n eu hwynebu yn lleol, eu huchelgeisiau lleol nhw, a wedyn rôl y Llywodraeth fyddai herio hynny'n benodol yn ychwanegol.
If I can come in first, particularly on the name. I would suggest that 'WESP' has taken root now, since being introduced some years ago. There is an understanding of what it is and perhaps it encompasses the objectives of the Bill more effectively, namely Welsh within the education curriculum, but also Welsh as a medium for education. So, the title, for me, as it currently exists, works.
In terms of those plans and target setting, yes, it's reasonable, but I would say that perhaps the best way of achieving targets is to collaborate to identify those targets in the first instance, so I would say that there is perhaps scope to have dialogue between local authorities and Government, because the local authorities do have an understanding of the challenges that they face locally, their local ambitions, and then the role of Government would be to challenge that specifically.
Enlli, any additional comments?
Na, dwi'n cytuno, a dwi'n meddwl bod cael y Llywodraeth yn gosod targedau yn allweddol, achos mae hynny yn caniatáu i'r Llywodraeth wedyn gael trosolwg o'r sefyllfa ar hyd a lled y wlad hefyd, ac i fonitro'r cynnydd. Felly, na, dwi'n cytuno efo beth oedd Gwenno yn ei ddweud.
No, I agree, and I think that the Government setting targets is crucial, because that then allows the Government to have an overview of the situation across the country too, and to monitor progress. So, I agree with Gwenno's comments.
Thanks very much. And just finally: do you believe the Welsh Government has struck the right balance between the need for WESPs to be short enough to ensure sufficient accountability and giving local authorities flexibility to plan over a long enough period? The reference I make to that is the timespan for WESPs, from three years to 10 years, in order to facilitate longer term planning, but the Bill reduces that back to five years. Do you see that as an issue at all, and what would be your remarks on that matter?
Eto, dwi ddim yn teimlo bod fy arbenigedd i yn y fan yma, ond mae pum mlynedd yn amser hir, onid ydy, ac yn gallu bod yn brofiad cyfan disgybl yn y sector uwchradd, er enghraifft, felly os dydy rhywbeth ddim yn gweithio am bum mlynedd, rydym ni wedi colli nifer o siaradwyr. Felly, dwi'n meddwl bod sicrhau bod y cynlluniau yma'n cael eu herio yn lled reolaidd yn gwneud synnwyr i fi.
Again, I don't think I have particular expertise in this area, but five years is a long time, isn't it, and it can be a pupil's whole experience in the secondary sector, for example, so, if something doesn't work for five years, then we've lost a number of speakers. So, I think that ensuring that these plans are challenged relatively regularly would make sense to me, certainly.
Ie, byddwn i'n cytuno gyda hynny. Mae angen ffurf o adnabod tangyflawniad yn erbyn y targed yn ddigon buan i fedru sicrhau nad yw'r amser yn pasio heb fod cynnydd yn cael yn ei weld. Ond hefyd, wrth gwrs, mae angen cydbwysedd o fedru cael digon o amser i weithredu a gweld effaith a ffrwyth effaith newidiadau sy'n cael eu cyflwyno, neu ymyrraethau sy'n cael eu cyflwyno. So, efallai fod eisiau edrych ymhellach i sicrhau bod yr amserlen yna'n addas, gan gydbwyso'r ddwy elfen yna.
I would agree with that, yes. We need a way of identifying underattainment in terms of the target quickly enough to ensure that time doesn't pass without progress being made. But also, of course, you need to balance having enough time to implement and to see the impact of changes or interventions that are introduced. So, perhaps we need to look further at that timetable to ensure that it is appropriate, balancing those two elements.
Diolch yn fawr iawn.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. Thank you, Gareth. We'll now move on to questions from Lee Waters, please.
Yes. Just one brief question for Professor Thomas. You say in your, or you suggest in your, evidence that you envisage a potential wider role for the institute, beyond simply teaching the learning of Welsh, and I just wonder if you could elaborate a little more on what you mean by that.
Dwi'n meddwl, yn enwedig gan fod y fframwaith yn sôn am fframwaith cenedlaethol ar addysg Gymraeg a dysgu Cymraeg, dwi'n teimlo bod yr athrofa yn canolbwyntio llawer iawn mwy ar ddysgu Cymraeg, nid ar yr elfen addysg Gymraeg. A dwi'n meddwl bod hwn yn rhywbeth sydd angen ei ddatblygu ymhellach. Dwi yn ymwybodol, wrth gwrs, fod yna newidiadau mawr ar y gweill o ran professional learning ar gyfer athrawon ar draws Cymru a bod yna gamau yn cael eu rhoi mewn lle er mwyn cael hwnnw’n rhywbeth cenedlaethol, ac mi fydd, wrth gwrs, hyfforddiant i athrawon sydd yn dysgu yn y sector cyfrwng Cymraeg ac ati, ac yn dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg—mi fydd hynny yn rhan o'r arlwy yna, dwi'n cymryd. Ond dwi ddim yn gwybod faint o sylw fydd yn cael ei roi i hwnnw yn yr achos yna, ac felly mae gennym ni athrofa sydd yn cyfrannu at y fframwaith cenedlaethol yma, ond sydd ddim i'w weld, i fi, yn mynd ar ôl yr elfen yna o addysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn hollol wahanol i ddysgu Cymraeg. Mae dysgu Cymraeg, mewn ffordd, yn dysgu pwnc, onid yw? Mae o’n rhoi—[Anghlywadwy.]
Mi fedrwn ni roi y sgiliau Cymraeg gwych yma i nifer o athrawon, ond ydy'r athrawon hynny wedyn yn gwybod sut mae defnyddio'r Gymraeg i addysgu plant? Ac, wrth gwrs, yn y cyd-destun Cymraeg, fel roeddwn i'n dweud yn gynharach, pan fo rhywun yn addysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, mae o’n sefyllfa hollol wahanol i addysgu drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg. Waeth faint o blant sydd o’ch blaen chi sydd yn siarad yr ieithoedd hynny fel mamiaith, mae yna llawer iawn fwy o heriau yn y cyd-destun o addysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. A dwi wedi dweud yn gyhoeddus mewn cyflwyniad flynyddoedd yn ôl, yn bersonol, dwi yn teimlo bod athrawon sy'n addysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg yn athrawon arbenigol, ac mae o’n gofyn am arbenigeddau does ddim angen eu cael os ydy rhywun yn dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg, a dwi ddim yn siŵr iawn lle mae'r hyfforddiant yna’n mynd i ddisgyn rŵan. Achos efallai bydd yna rywun yn cymryd yn ganiataol bod yr athrofa, efallai, yn paratoi'r hyfforddiant yna, ond wedyn efallai bydd yr athrofa yn cymryd yn ganiataol bod yr professional learning, sori, y dysgu proffesiynol yma, fod o'n mynd i ddigwydd yn y fan yna. Felly, jest ofn dwi fod yr hyfforddiant yna’n mynd i ddisgyn rhwng dwy stôl.
I think, particularly as the framework mentions a national framework for Welsh language education and learning Welsh, I think the athrofa or the institute would focus far more on learning Welsh rather than the Welsh language education element. And I think that this is something that needs to be developed further. I am aware, of course, that there are major changes in the pipeline in terms of professional learning for teachers across Wales and that steps are being taken in order to put that on a national level, and, of course, training for teachers in the Welsh-medium sector and so on, and those who teach through the medium of Welsh—that will be part of that offer, I assume. But I don't know how much attention will be given to that in that particular case, and so we have an institute that contributes to this national framework but doesn't seem, to me, to be pursuing that element of teaching through the medium of Welsh. Teaching through the medium of Welsh is very different to teaching Welsh. Teaching Welsh, you're teaching a subject, essentially. It provides a skill to individuals.
Now, we could provide excellent Welsh language skills for many teachers, but do those teachers then know how to use the Welsh language to teach children in other subjects? And in the context of the Welsh language, as I said earlier, when one teaches through the medium of Welsh, it's a very different situation to teaching through the medium of English. It doesn't matter how many children in front of you speak those languages as a first language, there are far more challenges in the context of teaching through the medium of Welsh. And I have said publicly in a presentation some years ago, that, personally, I feel that teachers who teach through the medium of Welsh are specialist teachers, and it requires a level of specialism that isn't required if one is teaching through the medium of English, and I'm not entirely sure where that training is going to fall now. Because one might assume that the institute would prepare that training, but then the institute might assume that the training would be provided through professional learning, and that it will happen there. So, I'm a little fearful that that training will fall by the wayside.
Gaf i ddod i mewn?
Can I come in?
[Inaudible.]—given the concerns that you and others have expressed about the finite budgets available, is there a danger of mission creep with what you suggest, and that this gradually starts to get beyond what is resourced or envisaged for?
Efallai wir, ond, fel dwi'n dweud, dydw i ddim yn gwybod lle mae'r trafodaethau ynghylch lle mae'r gefnogaeth ar gyfer athrawon yn y sector cyfrwng Cymraeg. Efallai fod y trafodaethau yna yn digwydd efo beth sy'n digwydd efo’r datblygu proffesiynol ar draws Cymru, ond dydw i ddim yn gwybod. Fel dwi'n dweud, dwi jest eisiau codi’r ffaith fod o’n gallu mynd ar goll, efallai.
Maybe so, but, as I say, I don't know where the discussions are in terms of where support for teachers in the Welsh-medium sector sits. Perhaps those discussions are happening in relation to professional development across Wales, but I simply don't know. But, as I say, I wanted to raise the fact that it could be lost.
Okay. Gwenno Ffrancon.
Diolch. I ddilyn ar y pwynt yna, ie, dyma lle dwi'n credu mae prif amwysedd y Bil. Dŷn ni ddim yn glir lle mae'r agweddau ar hyfforddiant y gweithlu yn digwydd. Dŷn ni hefyd ddim yn glir pam mae yna fwlch penodol o fewn y Bil o ran addysg uwch ac addysg bellach. Mae yna drafodaethau ynglŷn ag addysg statudol, orfodol ac wedyn addysg dysgu gydol oes, ond mae'r canol yna yn amwys tu hwnt, ac yn fanna mae yna allwedd ar gyfer cyflawni rhai o'r sgiliau angenrheidiol yna sydd eu hangen arnon ni o fewn y sector benodol. Felly, fe fyddwn i'n argymell bod angen ymgynghoriadau gyda'r prifysgolion ac ysgolion addysg y prifysgolion hynny, a hefyd gyda'r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol ar y pwynt yna, lle mae'r arbenigedd a'r arweinyddiaeth wedi dod, hyd yn hyn, ar gyfer hyfforddiant ar—[Anglywadwy.]—Gymraeg [cywiriad: hyfforddiant i athrawon cyfrwng Cymraeg].
Thank you. To follow up on that point, yes, I think this is where the main ambiguity within the Bill lies. We're not sure where aspects of workforce training fall. Neither are we clear why there's a specific gap in the Bill in terms of further and higher education. There is discussion of statutory education and then lifelong learning, but that middle part is very ambiguous, and that’s where the key to delivery of some of those skills lies, and we need those skills within this particular sector. So, I would recommend that we need particular consultations with universities and the schools of education within universities, and also with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol on that point, where the expertise and guidance has come from to date, in terms of providing training through the medium of Welsh [correction: training for teachers through the medium of Welsh].
I guess the question is, though: does that need statutory provision? Does that need to be explicitly in the Bill, or can that be developed in a framework outside of the Bill or indeed does there need to be framework powers in Bill that can allow that to evolve at a later date? Do you have a view on how that's done? Is that a first-order issue?
Rwy'n credu bod angen yr eglurder fel bod y cyfrifoldebau'n glir a'r disgwyliadau ar gyfer y sectorau gwahanol yma, ond, o bosib, efallai wedyn fod glo mân yn cael ei drafod ymhellach trwy ffyrdd gwahanol sy’n go ddyrys i fi achos dwi ddim yn troi yn y meysydd penodol yna.
I think there's a need for clarity so that the responsibilities are clearly set out and the expectations of the different sectors are set out, but perhaps the minutiae are discussed further in other fora that are abstruse to me because I don’t frequent those particular circles.
Okay. Diolch.
Okay. Thank you, and thank you, both, for attending today. We really appreciate your time. You'll be sent a transcript for checking in due course. Thank you again.
Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you. We'll now take a short five-minute break.
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:30 ac 11:45.
The meeting adjourned between 11:30 and 11:45.
Welcome back. We move on now to agenda item 6. This is the fourth evidence session on the Bill. Please can the witnesses introduce themselves and also outline, briefly, what, if any, involvement they have had in the development of the Bill? We’ll start with Angharad, please.
Angharad Morgan, rheolwr polisi Mudiad Meithrin, ac wedi bod yn gyfrifol am ddrafftio ymatebion y mudiad ar y Papur Gwyn gwreiddiol, a hefyd i'r ymgynghoriad yma.
Angharad Morgan, policy manager for Mudiad Meithrin, and I've been responsible for drafting Mudiad's responses to the original White Paper, and also the consultation on the Bill.
Thank you.
Helo, sut ydych chi? Dr Gwenllian Lansdown Davies dwi. Dwi’n brif weithredwr Mudiad Meithrin, ac, fel Angharad, wedi cynorthwyo yn y gwaith o ymateb i’r ymgynghoriad i’r Papur Gwyn gwreiddiol, ac ymateb i’r ymgynghoriad ar y Bil fel mae o wedi’i ddrafftio.
Hello, how are you? I’m Dr Gwenllian Lansdown Davies, chief executive of Mudiad Meithrin, and, like Angharad, have assisted in the work of responding to the consultation on the original White Paper, and responding to the consultation on the Bill as drafted.
Helo, Gwennan Schiavone, prif weithredwr CYDAG, sef Cymdeithas Ysgolion dros Addysg Gymraeg. Dwi ddim wedi bod yn ymwneud yn uniongyrchol o gwbl efo’r Bil o ran unrhyw agwedd o ran hynny, ond fi fydd yn cydlynu’r ymateb ysgrifenedig y byddwn ni’n ei ddarparu o fewn y bythefnos, rŵan, fel rhan o’r cyfnod ymgynghori, ar sail ymgynghori gyda holl aelodau CYDAG, sef ysgolion Cymraeg a dwyieithog.
Hello, Gwennan Schiavone, chief executive, CYDAG. Now, I haven’t been directly involved at all with the Bill in terms of any aspect of it, but I will be co-ordinating the written response that we will be providing within a fortnight, as part of the consultation, on the basis of consultation with all the members of CYDAG, which is Welsh-medium and bilingual schools.
Diolch. Members have a series of questions to ask, and I'll begin. Could you outline your initial thoughts on the Bill, and the extent to which it will support the work and progress required to achieve the 'Cymraeg 2050' target of a million Welsh speakers?
Dwi’n meddwl mai 'croeso gofalus' ydy sut y buasem ni fel mudiad yn diffinio ein hymateb ni i’r Bil mewn dau air. Dŷn ni yn angerddol o blaid y targed o gael miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn y flwyddyn 2050, a dyblu'r defnydd o’r Gymraeg, ac yn awyddus i bwysleisio pwysigrwydd gwaith blynyddoedd cynnar, gofal plant a chwarae o ran cyfrannu at y nod hwnnw, oherwydd dŷn ni’n gwybod bod cyfraddau dilyniant o’r sector blynyddoedd cynnar i’r sector addysg statudol yn arbennig o bwysig a dylanwadol. Mae cyfraddau dilyniant oddeutu 88 y cant i 89 y cant yn bresennol—hynny yw, y canran o blant sydd yn gadael y cylchoedd meithrin i fynd ymlaen i dderbyn eu haddysg yn Gymraeg. Ac mae oddeutu 80 y cant o blant sydd yn dod i gylchoedd meithrin o gartrefi ble Saesneg, neu iaith arall oni bai am y Gymraeg, ydy iaith yr aelwyd. Felly, mae’n rhaid cydnabod pwysigrwydd y blynyddoedd cynnar i’r Bil hwn, er ein bod ni’n gwerthfawrogi nad y sector nas gynhelir neu’r sector blynyddoedd cynnar ydy prif ddiddordeb y Bil. A dŷn ni’n falch o weld mwy o gydnabyddiaeth i’r sector gofal plant, ac i weithio gyda rhieni yn y drafft o’r Bil, o’i gymharu efo’r Papur Gwyn gwreiddiol.
Felly, dŷn ni’n credu bod yna lawer iawn o waith i’w wneud, fod yn rhaid cydnabod pa mor heriol ydy’r gwaith cynllunio, gweithredu, cynllunio strategol, pan fo’n dod i dwf addysg Gymraeg, a pa mor fregus ydy agweddau ar fywyd cylchoedd meithrin, methrinfeydd dydd, yn yr union yr un modd ag y mae pethau’n fregus iawn i playgroups ac i grwpiau chwarae cyfrwng Saesneg hefyd.
Felly, ein prif ddiddordeb ni ydy cydnabod eich bod chi'n methu ysgaru, mewn ffordd, y sector blynyddoedd cynnar oddi ar yr hyn sydd yn digwydd o fewn y sector addysg statudol. Ac felly, gyda hynny mewn golwg, mae’r hyn sydd wedi’i gynnwys o fewn y Bil o bwysigrwydd ac o arwyddocâd mawr i ni fel mudiad. A dŷn ni’n credu bod yr hyn sydd yn cael ei ddisgrifio gyda’r potensial i fod yn drawsnewidiol o ran y nod fod pob dysgwr yn gadael addysg orfodol yn 16 mlwydd oed wedi cyrraedd lefel o sgil ieithyddol ar B1 neu B2.
I think we as an organisation would describe our response as a ‘guarded welcome’ in terms of the Bill. We are passionately in favour of the target of a million Welsh speakers by the year 2050, and doubling the use of the Welsh language, and we’re eager to emphasise the importance of the work in early years, childcare and play in terms of contributing to that target, because we know that progression rates from the early years into statutory education are particularly important and influential. Those rates are around 88 to 89 per cent at the moment—that’s the percentage of children leaving the cylchoedd meithrin that go on to receive Welsh-medium education. And around 80 per cent of children who come to cylchoedd meithrin are from homes where English, or a language other than Welsh, is the language spoken at home. So, you have to recognise the importance of the early years for this Bill, although we do, of course, appreciate that it’s not the non-maintained sector or the early years sector that is the main focus of the Bill. And we’re pleased to see more recognition for the childcare sector and to working with parents in the draft Bill, as compared to what was included in the original White Paper.
So, we believe that there’s a great deal of work still to be done, that you have to recognise just how challenging the planning and implementation and the strategic planning will be when it comes to the growth of Welsh-medium education, and how fragile some aspects of the life of cylchoedd meithrin and day nurseries are, just as things are very fragile for English-medium playgroups and nurseries too.
So, our main interest is recognising that you can’t divorce the early years sector from what then happens within the statutory education sector. So, with that in mind, what’s included in the Bill is important and very significant for us as an organisation. And we believe that what is described has the potential to be transformational in terms of the objective that all learners leave compulsory education at 16 years of age having reached a certain level of language skill at B1 or B2.
Ie, wel, yn sicr, dwi’n meddwl ein bod ni’n croesawu’r Bil a’r cryfder mae rhoi sail statudol yn ei roi i dargedau ac i fwriad, ac, yn amlwg, mae yna gryfderau mawr yn y Bil o ran gwneud hynny. Dwi’n meddwl mai’r peth pwysig o’n safbwynt ni ydy’r gweithredu sydd yn dod yn sgil y Ddeddf yn dod i rym, felly, a sicrhau bod y manylion yn gywir yn y Ddeddf wrth ei chyhoeddi er mwyn galluogi'r gweithredu yna i ddigwydd, er mwyn gyrru'r newid yna a bod popeth yn ddigon cryf o'i mewn i alluogi hynny.
Ar ddiwedd y dydd, dwi'n meddwl ein bod ni i gyd yn gallu dweud mai addysg sydd yn mynd i greu siaradwyr. Dyna lle mae'r naid fawr yn mynd i allu digwydd mewn siaradwyr Cymraeg yn y dyfodol, ac felly mae hwn yn faes cwbl hanfodol i fod yn cael y buddsoddiad, egni, ymdrech, amser, adnoddau y tu ôl iddo, ac yn amlwg mae cael Deddf y tu ôl i hyn yn mynd i alluogi hynny i ddigwydd. Mae'r ffaith ei bod yn rhoi'r llinellau atebolrwydd yna yn amlwg yn allweddol, yn rhoi cadernid pellach, ac felly yn amlwg byddem ni'n ei chroesawu, ond yn amlwg mae yna elfennau o'i mewn o y byddem ni'n awyddus i'w trafod ymhellach.
Yes, well, certainly, I think we welcome the Bill, and the force that statute gives to targets and the aim, and, clearly, there are great strengths in the Bill in terms of doing that. I think the important thing from our perspective is the action that comes as a result of the implementation of the Bill, and to ensure that the details are correct in the legislation as published in order to allow that implementation to happen, and to drive change and that everything is strong enough to enable that to happen.
At the end of the day, I think we can all say that it's education that will create Welsh speakers. That's where the great leap will happen in terms of Welsh speakers in the future. So, this is a crucial area and it needs the investment, the energy, the effort, resources and time, and clearly having legislation to underpin this will allow that to happen. The fact that it provides lines of accountability is crucial, and it makes it more robust, and so certainly we welcome it, but there are elements within the Bill that we would be eager to discuss further.
Okay. Thank you. I know you've just touched on this, but if you could elaborate a little bit further, please: to what extent does the Bill take adequate account of the role of the early years sector in supporting and growing the Welsh language through education?
Wel, yn sicr mae'r drafft sydd gennym ni rŵan yn welliant ar y geiriad gwreiddiol oedd yn y Papur Gwyn, oherwydd mae yna gydnabyddiaeth o bwysigrwydd y blynyddoedd cynnar a hefyd o weithio efo rhieni. Mae'r gwaith yna o hybu a hyrwyddo yn bwysig, ond dwi'n meddwl y byddem ni, fel mudiad, hefyd yn dadlau, ble mae gan rieni ddewis rhwng addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg ac addysg Saesneg, weithiau mi fydd rhieni yn gwneud y dewis o blaid addysg Gymraeg, weithiau mi fydd hi'n haws iddyn nhw ddewis addysg Saesneg oherwydd hwylustod, oherwydd trefniadaeth trafnidiaeth, ac yn y blaen, ac felly mae'n rhaid i unrhyw gynllunio strategol ac ymarferol a gweithredol gymryd i ystyriaeth pethau sydd y tu hwnt i ystyriaethau o safbwynt cynllunio iaith—pethau cwbl ymarferol yn ymwneud â hwylustod. Mae hynny hefyd yn wir o fewn y blynyddoedd cynnar.
Rydyn ni'n deall mai ein natur ni fel sector yw ein bod ni yn nas gynhelir, felly gall y Bil yma ddim cynnwys lleoliadau meithrin oddi mewn i'r sector anstatudol. Ond, mae cydgynllunio sydd yn digwydd efo ysgolion a'r ffaith bod nifer fawr o gylchoedd meithrin ar safleoedd ysgolion, yn cael eu lletya gan ysgolion cynradd ac uwchradd, yn bwysig i'w gydnabod a'i ystyried wrth gynllunio. A'r hyn y buaswn i'n ei ddweud hefyd ydy, pan fydd yna gynlluniau i agor ysgolion Cymraeg newydd a chylch meithrin yn cael ei gynnwys ar y safle—ac mae hynny'n bwysig—mae'n rhaid ein cynnwys ni yn y drafodaeth yna, oherwydd mae yna ofynion gan Arolygiaeth Gofal Cymru, AGC, sydd yn benodol iawn er mwyn bod y cylchoedd meithrin yn gallu bodloni gofynion y safonau gofynnol cenedlaethol gofal plant, ac weithiau dydy hynny ddim yn cael ei gymryd i ystyriaeth. Felly, rydyn ni'n siarad am bethau prosäig iawn yn ymwneud â nifer y sinciau, nifer y toiledau, arwynebedd llawr, mynediad at yr awyr agored—nid o reidrwydd ystyriaethau mae penseiri a chynllunwyr yn meddwl amdanyn nhw wrth gynllunio gofod ysgol. Felly, mae yna agweddau fel yna, ymarferol, rydyn ni'n eu gweld sydd weithiau yn heriol yn ein gwaith ni, oherwydd rydyn ni'n cyrraedd safle ysgol a chylch meithrin newydd a dydy'r math yna o ystyriaethau heb gael eu cymryd i ystyriaeth. Wyt ti eisiau ymhelaethu, Angharad?
Well, certainly the draft we currently have is an improvement on the original wording in the White Paper, because there is recognition of the importance of early years and also the importance of working with parents. That work of promotion is important, but I think that we as an organisation would also argue that, where parents have a choice between Welsh-medium education and English-medium education, on occasion parents will make the choice for Welsh-medium education, but on occasion it will be easier for them to choose English-medium education for reasons of convenience, because of transport arrangements, and so on and so forth. So, any strategic planning and practical planning does have to take into account those issues that are beyond considerations of language planning—those very practical things relating to convenience. That's also true in early years provision.
We understand that the nature of our sector is that we are non-maintained, so this Bill cannot encompass Mudiad Meithrin sites within the non-statutory sector. But the joint planning that happens with schools and the fact that many cylchoedd meithrin are on school sites, are hosted by primary and secondary schools, is important to recognise and to consider in terms of planning. What I would also say is that, when there are plans to open new Welsh-medium schools and there is a cylch meithrin to be included on the site—and that's important—we have to be included in that discussion, because there are requirements by Care Inspectorate Wales that are very specific in terms of ensuring that the cylchoedd meithrin can meet the required national standards in terms of childcare, and on occasion, that isn't taken into account. So, we're talking about very prosaic things related to the number of sinks, the number of toilets, the floor space, access to open-air spaces. These aren't necessarily considerations that architects and planners think about in planning a school space. So, there are practical aspects such as those that we see that can occasionally be challenging in our work, because we get to a school site with a new cylch meithrin and those considerations haven't been taken into account. I don't know if you'd like to expand on that, Angharad.
Dwi'n cytuno â hynny. Dwi'n credu mai un o'r pethau eraill sydd angen ei ystyried yw bod y gwaith o ran hyrwyddo addysg Gymraeg yn digwydd o'r crud, a bod rhieni yn dechrau ar y penderfyniadau addysg yna ymhell cyn cyrraedd y ffurflen dewis ysgol gan yr awdurdodau lleol. Felly, mae angen sicrhau bod unrhyw waith o ran hyrwyddo a datblygu'r sector addysg Gymraeg yn digwydd ar y cyd gyda'r holl asiantaethau a gwasanaethau, fel y cylchoedd Ti a Fi, grwpiau Cymraeg i Blant, a'r cylchoedd meithrin, sydd â'r cyswllt cynharaf posibl yna ym mywyd teuluoedd. Mae hynny hefyd yn golygu bod angen cyd-weithio ar draws adrannau Llywodraeth Cymru, achos mae [cywiriad: nid yw] nifer o'r gweithwyr proffesiynol sy'n dod i gyswllt â rhieni yn ystod blynyddoedd cynnar plentyn yn dod o dan yr awdurdod addysg, maen nhw'n dod o'r ymwelwyr iechyd, y byd iechyd, maen nhw'n dod o fyd chwarae plant, maen nhw'n dod o grwpiau drwy wasanaethau gwybodaeth i deuluoedd. O ran yr elfen o hyrwyddo a thyfu addysg Gymraeg trwy'r gwaith hyrwyddo sy'n cael ei wneud, mae'n rhaid sicrhau cysondeb yn y gwaith hyrwyddo a'r negeseuon o ran addysg Gymraeg sy'n mynd allan ar draws yr holl sectorau yna hefyd.
I'd agree with that. One of the other things that needs to be considered is that the work in terms of promoting Welsh-medium education happens from the cradle, and that parents start to make those decisions way before they get to the school selection form provided by local authorities. So, we need to ensure that any work in terms of promoting and developing the Welsh-medium education sector happens alongside all of those services and areas, such as the cylchoedd Ti a Fi, Cymraeg i Blant groups, and the cylchoedd meithrin, which have that earliest possible contact with family life. And then that means that there is a need for co-operation across departments of Welsh Government, because many of the professionals coming into contact with parents in the early years of a child are [correction: are not] captured under the education authority, they are health visitors, they come from the health sector, they come from the child play sector, they come from information for families services. And in terms of promoting and developing Welsh-medium education through the promotion work that's undertaken, we must ensure consistency in that promotion work and the messaging on Welsh-medium education that goes out across all those sectors, too.
Thank you. My next question is to Gwennan, please. To what extent does the Bill reflect the role of Welsh-medium schools and recognise how they provide immersive Welsh language education?
Dwi'n meddwl ei fod yn deg i ddweud bod yna ddim digon o gydnabyddiaeth o ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg a’u cyfraniad o fewn y Bil fel y mae, ac mae yna deimlad efallai fod hynny’n cael ei gymryd yn ganiataol, ac efallai ar hynny, mae angen pwysleisio nad ydy’r sector cyfrwng Cymraeg heb ei heriau ychwaith ac mae angen y gefnogaeth honno.
O safbwynt cyfraniad y sector ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg, eto, i fynd yn ôl at y pwynt roeddwn i’n ei wneud yn gynt, dyna lle mae’r siaradwyr, y defnyddwyr, y rheini ar y lefel uchaf o hyfedredd yn mynd i gael eu creu—nhw sydd yn mynd i fod yn sail i ddefnyddio’r iaith wrth barhau mewn addysg, yn y gweithle, wrth fagu teulu, a throsglwyddo’r iaith ac yn y blaen. Felly, yn amlwg, mae pwysigrwydd y sector yna, hyd yn oed os ydy o’n cael ei gymryd yn ganiataol, mi ddylai fod yn gryfach, dwi’n teimlo, o ran sut y mae'r Bil yn ei gydnabod. Heb hynny, mae yna risg iddo, dwi’n meddwl, oherwydd, efallai, y pethau y byddwn ni’n dod atyn nhw yn nes ymlaen o ran y categorïau ac yn y blaen.
Yr addysg drochi yna, rydyn ni’n gwybod—mae tystiolaeth yn dangos—mai trochi iaith sydd yn sicrhau rhuglder. Yn amlwg y nod, rydyn ni i gyd yn gobeithio, yw y bydd pob ysgol yn y man yn galluogi plentyn i ddatblygu’n gwbl rugl trwy gael y profiad yna o drochi. Yn y lle cyntaf, fodd bynnag, yr ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg sy’n gallu darparu hynny, a’n gwaith ni, y tu hwnt i ddiogelu a chryfhau’r sector yna, yn amlwg, ydy sicrhau bod ysgolion eraill wedyn yn gallu symud ar hyd y continwwm tuag at yr uchelgais honno.
I think it is fair to say that there isn't sufficient recognition of Welsh-medium schools and their contribution in the Bill as it currently stands, and there is perhaps a feeling that it's taken for granted, and perhaps, on that, there is a need to emphasise that the Welsh-medium sector isn't without its challenges either and does need support.
In terms of the contribution of the Welsh-medium school sector, again, returning to an earlier point, that's where the Welsh speakers, the users, and those at the highest level of attainment will be created—they are going to be the basis for the use of the language as they continue in education, in the workplace, in raising a family, and in transferring the language and so on. So, clearly, the importance of that sector, even if it is taken for granted, should be reflected more strongly, I feel, in the Bill. Without that, there is a risk, I think, because of issues that we might cover later, in terms of the categories and so on.
In terms of immersive education, we know—evidence shows—that language immersion is what secures fluency. Of course, the aim, we all hope, is that all schools in future will enable children to develop total fluency by having that immersive experience. But initially, however, it is the Welsh-medium schools that can provide that, and it's our job, beyond safeguarding and strengthening that sector, to ensure that other schools then are able to move along the continuum towards that ambition.
Diolch. The Bill makes the target of a million Welsh speakers a statutory target. What is the value of placing the target on the statute book, and how will it affect your work and role?
Beth ydy gwerth unrhyw statud? Beth ydy gwerth yn unrhyw ddeddfwriaeth? Cwestiwn rhethregol, wrth gwrs. Mae yna werth symbolaidd, buaswn i'n dadlau, i’r ffaith bod y targed yna wedi’i gynnwys ar sail statudol, ond mae rhywun o hyd yn deall bod yna gyfyngiadau i ddylanwad unrhyw ddarn o ddeddfwriaeth a bod yna ystyriaethau eraill o safbwynt polisi, o safbwynt cynllunio, o safbwynt ariannu a buddsoddi, yn enwedig yn y maes hwn.
Ond rydym ni fel mudiad wedi gweld yn sicr mwy o fomentwm ers mabwysiadu slogan Cymraeg 2050, a hynny fel targed. Mae o wedi gwneud ein gwaith ni'n fwy rhwydd. Mae’r CSCA hefyd wedi cael eu haddasu yn sgil adolygiad y diweddar Aled Roberts, fel bod deilliant 1 yn cynnwys y blynyddoedd cynnar. Ac felly, ein gobaith ni ydy y bydd cael yr amcan yna ar sail statudol yn cryfhau ein gwaith ni eto ac yn ei gwneud hi'n haws i fod o gwmpas y bwrdd fel partner yn cyd-drafod ac yn cyd-gynllunio gydag awdurdodau lleol a'r cyrff rheoleiddio perthnasol eraill.
What's the value of any statute? What's the value of any legislation? That's a rhetorical question, of course. There is symbolic value, I would argue, to the fact that the target has been included on a statutory basis, but one always understands that there are limitations to the influence of any piece of legislation and that there are other considerations in terms of policy, in terms of planning, in terms of funding and investment, particularly in this area.
But we, as an organisation, have certainly seen more momentum since the adoption of the Cymraeg 2050 slogan, and as a target. It has made our work easier. The WESPs have also been adapted as a result of the review by the late Aled Roberts, so that outcome 1 includes the early years, and therefore, our hope is that having that objective on a statutory basis will strengthen our work further and will make it easier to be around the table as a partner, discussing and jointly planning with local authorities and the other relevant regulatory bodies.
Dwi'n credu hefyd bod y cynllun Sefydlu a Symud gan y Mudiad, sydd yn cydweithio gyda'r targedau sydd yn y cynlluniau strategol ar hyn o bryd, o ran edrych ar ardaloedd lle mae yna fylchau o ran darpariaeth gofal blynyddoedd cynnar cyfrwng Cymraeg, er mwyn inni allu targedu'r ardaloedd hynny sydd â’r mwyaf o angen a’r mwyaf o angen o dwf ar lawr gwlad, er mwyn gallu blaenoriaethu’r ardaloedd hynny, sydd efo'r bylchau yna yn lleol i rieni—. Dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n gynllun sydd yn dangos bod y cydweithio yna a’r trafodaethau yna yn digwydd ar draws y lefelau, rhyngom ni, yr awdurdodau lleol a Llywodraeth Cymru yn ganolog, ac wedyn bod gwerth hynny’n anferth o ran tyfu’r farchnad ar lawr gwlad.
I also think that the Set up and Succeed programme by the Mudiad, which works to the targets in the strategic plans at the moment, in terms of looking at areas where there are gaps in terms of early years Welsh-medium childcare provision, so that we can target those areas of greatest need and with the greatest need of more growth on the ground, so that we can prioritise those areas, which have those gaps at a local level for parents—. I think that is a programme that shows that that collaboration and those discussions are happening across the various levels, between ourselves, the local authorities and Welsh Government centrally, and that the value of that is huge in terms of growing the market on the ground.
Dwi'n meddwl beth fyddwn i'n ei ddweud o ran hynna ydy pwysigrwydd y sail statudol yna i unrhyw darged. Mae o'n rhoi statws cryfach iddo; mae o'n lleihau’r dadlau yn ei gylch o; byddai rhywun yn gobeithio ei fod o'n cynyddu’r cyfrifoldeb tuag at gyflawni, a bod hynny wedyn yn tynnu oddi ar—. Rydyn ni i gyd yn gobeithio am ewyllys da, rydyn ni i gyd yn gobeithio am gefnogaeth ac anogaeth ac yn y blaen, ond mae yna elfen arall, wrth gwrs, lle mae angen y cadernid yna sy'n dod o fod â tharged a nod sydd yn statudol. Ac yn amlwg, byddai rhywun yn gobeithio wedyn fod y cyfrifoldeb yna'n ymestyn reit ar draws y Llywodraeth ac nid yn syrthio ar un adran, o dan un Gweinidog yn unig. Wedyn, dyna mae rhywun yn ei obeithio, sef bod y sail yna jest yn codi un cam ymhellach o ran nod ac amcan ac uchelgais wedyn.
I think what I would say is in terms of that is the importance of that statutory basis for any target. It gives it a higher status; it reduces the arguing about it; and one would hope that it would actually increase the responsibility in terms of delivery, and that that then would—. We all hope that there is goodwill, we all hope for encouragement and support and so on, but there is another element of course, where you need that robustness that comes from having a target and an objective that is placed on a statutory basis. And obviously, what we would then hope is that that responsibility would extend across Government and wouldn't simply fall on one department, under one Minister. So, that is what one would hope, namely that that basis just takes it up a step in terms of the aims and objectives and ambitions too.
Diolch. We'll now move on to questions from Cefin Campbell, please.
Diolch yn fawr iawn, a diolch i chi am y dystiolaeth, a'r dystiolaeth a ddaw, dwi'n siŵr, yn y man.
Dwi jest, yn y set yma o gwestiynau, yn mynd i ganolbwyntio ar y fframwaith CEFR. Mae e’n gysyniad newydd i ni yng Nghymru, wrth gwrs, y tu fas i Gymraeg i oedolion. Jest yn gyffredinol, beth yw eich barn am gyflwyno fframwaith fel hwn, a beth ŷch chi'n gweld yw’r manteision, ac oes yna anfanteision, oes yna heriau? Jest sylwadau cyffredinol i ddechrau.
Thank you very much, and thank you for your evidence and for the evidence that you'll provide, I'm sure, later.
In this set of questions, I'm just going to focus on the CEFR framework. It's a new concept for us in Wales, of course, outside Welsh for adults. Just generally speaking, what's your view on the introduction of a framework like this one, and what do you see as the benefits, and are there any disadvantages or challenges? If you could just give us some general comments first of all.
Rydyn ni’n gefnogol o’r fframwaith. Rydyn ni’n gefnogol o'r egwyddor bod yna fframwaith safonol sydd yn cael ei gydnabod yn fyd-eang ac yn rhyngwladol yn cael ei ddefnyddio, a does dim rheswm pam na ellid defnyddio'r fframwaith hwnnw ar gyfer cael set o safonau, os liciwch chi, neu ddisgwyliadau o ran beth mae o’n golygu i siarad y Gymraeg, fel unrhyw iaith arall.
Rydyn ni â phrofiad o ddefnyddio gwiriwr iaith yn y gorffennol, a phrofiad difyr, ond byddem ni’n dadlau bod yna werth mewn cael fframwaith sydd yn safonol ar draws gwahanol sectorau, fel ein bod ni i gyd yn gweithio o fewn yr un disgwyliadau a’r safonau hynny.
Mae yna is-lais weithiau yn y drafodaeth yma, dwi’n teimlo, fod yna rywbeth sydd yn sylfaenol wahanol am ddysgu Cymraeg o’i gymharu efo dysgu unrhyw iaith arall. Wel, mi fyddem ni’n dadlau i’r gwrthwyneb, bod y profiad o ddysgu Cymraeg yn union fel dysgu unrhyw iaith, ac felly os ydy’r fframwaith yma’n gweithio i gyrff ar draws y byd, pam na allai fo hefyd weithio yng Nghymru? Ac mae Angharad wedi gwneud gwaith ymchwil ynglŷn â’r teitlau amrwd—A1, A2, B1 ac yn y blaen. Wrth gwrs, mae yna dros 1,000 o ddisgrifiadau ar gael i ni sydd yn gorwedd o dan y disgrifiadau cyffredinol amrwd yna, felly mae o mor fanwl ag ydych chi eisiau iddo fo fod, mewn gwirionedd. Ond dwi’n meddwl mai ein barn ni fel sefydliad ydy bod y CEFR yn ffordd ddoeth a chall o safoni neu gael cyfundrefn sydd yn gydnabyddedig ac y gallwn ni i gyd weithio oddi mewn iddi.
We are supportive of the framework. We are supportive of the principle that a standard framework that is recognised globally and internationally should be used, and there is no reason why that framework couldn't be used in order to have a set of standards, if you like, or expectations in terms of what it means to speak Welsh, just as is the case with any other language.
We have some experience of using a language checker in the past, and it was an interesting experience, but we would argue that there is value in having a framework that is standardised across different sectors, so that we are all working to the same expectations and same standards.
There is an undertone in this debate on occasion, I feel, that there is something that is fundamentally different about learning Welsh as opposed to learning any other language. Well, we would argue to the contrary, that the experience of learning Welsh is exactly the same as learning any language, and therefore, if this framework works for organisations across the world, why couldn't it also work here in Wales? And Angharad has done some research on the raw titles—A1, A2, B1 and so on. Of course, there are over 1,000 descriptors available to us that sit below those general raw categories, so it is as detailed as you want it to be, in reality. But I think our view as an organisation is that the CEFR is a good way of standardising or having a system that is recognised and that we can all work within.
Mi fuaswn i'n cytuno. Dwi'n credu mai un o'r manteision o ddefnyddio fframwaith cydnabyddedig fel y CEFR yw ei fod yn rhoi strwythur inni weithio tuag ato fe. Mae'r ffaith bod yr C1, C2 yn cael ei ddisgrifio fel defnyddwyr hyfedr o’r Gymraeg yn gam arall, dwi'n credu, sydd yn gam pwysig ymlaen, a symud o'r elfen yma o ddefnyddio 'rhugl' a 'hyderus', achos dwi'n credu bod diffinio rhuglder yn anoddach, i raddau, na diffinio defnyddiwr hyderus o’r Gymraeg. A beth yw 'rhuglder'? Achos dwi'n gallu eistedd fan hyn a siarad yn Gymraeg am y Bil, am unrhyw beth i wneud efo plant, addysg, cynllunio iaith, ond pe baech chi'n gofyn i fi fynd i roi cyflwyniad ar rywbeth gwyddonol, buaswn i ddim yn gwybod ble i gychwyn, achos nid fy maes arbenigedd i yw hynny, a does gen i ddim yr eirfa yn y maes hwnnw i wneud hynny mewn unrhyw iaith. Ac felly, mae'n haws diffinio o ran hyfedredd yn hytrach na rhuglder, fel y mae'r CEFR yn ei wneud.
I would agree. I think one of the benefits of using a recognised framework such as the CEFR is that it does provide us with a structure to work within. The fact that the C1, C2 is described as proficient users of the Welsh language is another step that is an important step forward in moving away from this element of using 'confident' and 'fluent' as descriptors, because defining fluency is more difficult, to an extent, than defining a confident user of the Welsh language. And what does 'fluency' mean? Because I can sit here and speak in Welsh about the Bill, about anything related to education, children, language planning, and so on, but if you were to ask me to give a presentation on a scientific subject, I wouldn't know where to start, because it's not my area of expertise, and I don't have the vocabulary in that area to do that in any language. So, it's easier to define proficiency rather than fluency, as the CEFR actually does.
Yn bersonol, does gen i ddim barn benodol ar y CEFR fel fframwaith, felly. Mae rhywun yn tybio bod yna waith ymchwil manwl wedi cael ei wneud i ffurfio'r farn mai dyma fyddai'r fframwaith mwyaf addas. Yn amlwg, mae mabwysiadu model cyffredin safonol sydd wedi’i dderbyn a'i dreialu'n rhyngwladol, yr holl bethau hynny, yn amlwg mae yna sail i wneud y penderfyniad yna. Dwi'n meddwl mai beth fyddwn i’n ei ddweud ydy, yn amlwg mae'r pwysigrwydd yn syrthio ar ba bynnag fframwaith sydd yna, ei fod o'n golygu rhywbeth, ac yn addas i bwrpas, ac yn cael ei ddefnyddio i bwrpas, ac felly fel y byddwn i’n ei weld, pwrpas fframwaith ydy galluogi rhywun i osod amcanion wrth ddatblygu sgiliau iaith eraill, felly, ac wrth addysgu, yn fwy na sut mae person yn diffinio ei hun. Wrth edrych ar berson yn diffinio ei hun, dwi'n meddwl mai'n nod ni ydy bod yna ddim angen i rywun osod lefel ar ei hun, a ble maen nhw'n syrthio—ydyn nhw'n gallu ac yn siarad Cymraeg ac yn defnyddio'r iaith? A beth fyddwn i ddim yn awyddus i'w weld yw bod unrhyw fath o fframwaith yn cael ei ystyried fel rhyw fath o gap ar gyrraedd rhyw lefel, ac mae'r nod ydy cyrraedd rhyw lefel. Y nod ydy sicrhau siaradwyr a defnyddwyr y Gymraeg. Dyna ddylai’r uchelgais fod, ond, yn amlwg, y tu ôl i hynny, o safbwynt addysgol o safbwynt gosod gofynion mewn swyddi, neu beth bynnag, mae yna fantais a lle i osod safonau sy’n cael eu cydnabod a’u deall, a dwi’n meddwl mai’r peth pwysig yn hyn ydy pa bynnag ddefnydd dŷn ni'n gwneud ohonyn nhw, mae’n rhaid gwneud yn siŵr bod pobl yn eu deall nhw, eu bod nhw’n cael eu datblygu i bwrpas fel eu bod nhw’n cael eu deall a’u cydnabod yn hynny o beth.
Personally, I have no specific view on the CEFR as a framework. One would assume that detailed research has been done to come to the view that this would be the most appropriate framework. Clearly, adopting a common standardised model that has been accepted and trialled internationally, and so on, clearly there is a basis for making that decision. I think what I would say is that, clearly it's important that whichever framework is used means something, is fit for purpose, and is used to achieve an end, so the way I would see it, the purpose of a framework is to enable someone to set objectives in developing language skills and in educating, rather than how individuals define themselves. In looking at individuals defining themselves, I think that our aim is that there would be no need for someone to decide on their level and where they are; it's whether they can speak Welsh and use the Welsh language. What I wouldn't want to see is that any framework would be considered as any sort of cap on a level of attainment, and that the target is to reach a certain level. The aim is to secure Welsh speakers and users of the Welsh language. That's what the ambition should be. But, from an educational perspective and in terms of placing requirements for certain posts, then clearly there is a benefit and a scope for placing standards that are widely recognised and understood. So, the importance is that whatever use we make of these, we must ensure that people understand them, that they are fit for purpose so that they are understood and recognised in that regard.
Jest ar y pwynt olaf yna—cwestiwn i CYDAG, ond rwy’n hapus i glywed eich barn chi ar hyn hefyd—faint o her fydd hyn i’n hysgolion ni ac i athrawon, yn benodol, fydd yn gorfod asesu plant yn ôl fframwaith cwbl newydd iddyn nhw?
On that final point then—a question for CYDAG, but I'd be happy to hear from you too—how much of a challenge will this be for our schools and for teachers, particularly, who will have to assess children according to an entirely new framework?