National Assembly for Wales

Yes. Rebecca Evans, Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning. And I'll ask officials to introduce themselves.

Hi, I'm Emily Hole. I head up the trade policy division for Welsh Government.

Bore da. Good morning. Andrew Gwatkin, director of international relations and trade. 

Thank you so much. You're all very welcome. Can I just check before we move on, do any Members have any interests that they need to declare? I don't see any. So, we'll go straight to questions, if that's all right. Well, I'll start by asking, then: so it's four years since the TCA entered into force—what is your view of the effects it has had on Wales, please? 

Well, ultimately, the TCA will never replace what was lost by exiting the European Union. Leaving was always going to result in barriers to trade and issues in relation to mobility, and we’ve seen those play out in debates in the Senedd recently. The culture committee’s own report, I think, explored those issues particularly well. But, nevertheless, it’s the deal that we now have, so we should be focusing on how we use those structures to the best benefit of Wales. At the moment, the considerations are how the TCA is being implemented, and then there is a separate piece of work in relation to that reset between the UK and the EU.

I suppose my particular area of interest from my portfolio would be around trade, and particularly exports, and the impact on business. According to the latest data, the volume of Welsh exports to the EU fell by around 31 per cent between 2019 and 2024, while EU imports into Wales fell by 20 per cent. But despite this, the EU is still our biggest trading partner, accounting for around 61 per cent of Welsh exports, as compared to 50 per cent of UK exports overall. So, I think that demonstrates that Wales is particularly impacted and is more reliant on trade with the EU than other parts of the UK. So, in that sense, it’s been disproportionately impacted. But then I would just also make the point that it’s really hard to disentangle the impact of Brexit from other things that have happened in that intervening period, and particularly, of course, the pandemic. So, I think that there's still research going on in that space to try and better understand what you can attribute to Brexit and what you can attribute to the pandemic.

Thank you so much. Looking towards the implementation review, could you talk us through, please, what steps the Welsh Government is taking to prepare for that?

We've set out a series of priorities for the future, particular areas where we think that there is potential for movement and for further agreement. So, those priorities would be around improvements to rules of origin or mobility arrangements and some more detailed technical positions, which Emily might want to come in on as well.

Officials are meeting, now, every other week with their counterparts in the UK Government, and both the First Minister and I have met with Nick Thomas-Symonds, in his Cabinet Office role with his responsibilities in relation to EU relations as well. So, we had those opportunities to set our priorities. But I’m also really keen that we engage fully with our stakeholders, and listen to their views and test our priorities with them to ensure that we are representing fully their views. So, I chair the trade policy advisory group, which met recently at our export conference in Cardiff, to further those discussions. So, that group is particularly helpful; it has representation from across business, but also including agriculture and other sectors. I don’t know, Emily, if you want to say a bit more about those more technical things that we would like to see as part of the discussions.

Sure. We’ve got a number of priorities. I think it’s worth saying at the beginning that, because we don’t know what the terms of reference for the review of the TCA are, it’s difficult to say which of those priorities we think will fall into work that you would traditionally say is TCA review work and then the broader EU reset work. So, there are larger scale priorities that we’ve got, which are things around sanitary and phytosanitary agreements, conformity assessments, mobility, and then there are these smaller, more technical asks that we've got that are more implementation driven, so things like improving guidance and transparency on rules of origin.

Thank you very much for that. I think the Cabinet Secretary's teasing us a little bit by giving us an insight into some of the work of Government, and I'd like to sort of think a bit more about that. It might be useful if, rather than us ask a series of questions here this morning, you were able to write to us outlining the engagements that you've had with the United Kingdom Government over these matters, but also engagement that you've had with EU institutions. Because one of the things that screams out from your evidence paper is that you don't seem to discuss very much the EU itself. It's very much focused on—. It's a very narrow answer to the question, but I accept it's an answer to the question that was asked, but I'd be interested to understand what engagement you have with EU institutions, what engagement the Welsh Government is having with EU institutions, and what structures exist within Welsh Government to manage the relationship with EU institutions, because I think that's a really important part of that. Unless you want to respond now, I'd be happy to have that in writing.

Yes, happy to share that in writing, and also to include not only the work that I do and my officials do, but then also, of course, Huw Irranca-Davies will be having discussions in his particular role. Discussions happen across different parts of Government, so I agree it would be helpful to pull that together for you.

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary, that's very useful. So, in terms of ministerial responsibility, I understand that the First Minister has responsibility for international matters, and I presume the EU falls into that, in inverted commas, and you have responsibility for trade, and then the Deputy First Minister has responsibility for constitutional matters. Now, the TCA review can fall into all of those and other ministerial responsibilities. So, how are you as a Welsh Government managing the overall approach to the TCA review?

The international relations and trade team takes responsibility for co-ordinating that cross-Government work to ensure that there is that single point at which we're having information fed in from all parts of Government to inform our positions, and there are discussions that Emily and her team are involved in on that bi-weekly basis in relation to the overall programme, and then there are weekly meetings, I think, in relation to the SPS at the moment as well.

Okay. And you mentioned meetings with UK counterparts. How is the relationship with UK counterparts in terms of ministerial and official level looking at this review process? 

I would just say that the relations at ministerial level are good at the moment, because we are having those discussions, as you would expect, for the inter-ministerial framework that is set up. I attend the one on EU relations, for example. Huw Irranca-Davies would attend the ones in relation to agriculture and so forth. So, those relationships are good.

At the moment, as Emily set out, though, there is a lack of information in relation to what the terms of reference might look like, so we're having those discussions to try and shape things from our perspective, but perhaps Emily can reflect on the work at official level, because I do understand that that is very good.

It is good at official level. We meet Cabinet Office counterparts every other week. We then also have separate discussions with different Government departments that are leading on elements of reset. We obviously talk to the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs about SPS, for instance. Yes, the relationship is positive, it's good, there's a structure in place that we can use. Cabinet Office have just recently started developing some internal guidance that they're using to explain how devolution needs to be taken into account for the reset work more widely, so that's really positive. We are at the very beginning, though, of this process, I think, of working out what the UK really wants, so it will be tested as time goes on. But so far, so good, I think.

That's an interesting answer; I'm grateful to you for it. We're at the beginning of a process of debating what the UK wants—well, we're not really, though, are we? Because we've known this review is coming up for some years. We've had a change of Government since last summer, there's been some considerable engagement between UK Government and the EU, and there's a summit coming up in May. So, there's a relationship between the wider reset and the TCA review, I would assume, and it would be useful for us to understand your understanding of the UK position as it stands today in terms of a wider reset and the TCA review, because I'm sure there must be a relationship between the two.

So, I think in terms of the TCA review, all of our trade agreements have those reviews as part of the natural way in which they're managed. It's very rare, actually, for significant changes to come through as part of those reviews, for obvious reasons. The review is about how implementation is happening at the moment, and there are things that could be improved to make things smoother, but then the reset work I think would respond more widely to the concerns of various committees in relation to movement of people, and other things that are much bigger questions, I think, beyond the TCA.

But I think the point that Emily was making about that guidance is really important. That's been co-produced between the UK Government and the devolved Governments. It's currently being reviewed in response to some further comments that our officials have made to that guidance. So, I think that's really helpful guidance and it did come about as a result of a deep dive into the way in which we need to work with the UK Government, and UK Government needs to work with us on the work. Again, that's a really positive framework, I think, for those discussions.

Has the inter-ministerial group on UK-EU relations discussed the May summit and the likely UK position that is being developed at the moment before the May summit? 

So, at the most recent meeting I was able to talk through our priorities and the things that we would like to see raised in those discussions. We didn't have a detailed discussion about the UK Government's position, though—it was more of an opportunity for me to set out our priority areas.

So, you haven't contributed anything at all meaningful to the reset process.

We set out what our priorities would be, but we haven't had a deep level of discussion on this point yet.

And is there an inter-ministerial group planned before the May summit?

I'm not sure what the date of the next one is. 

So, it's planned to meet before the next summit. We are having a logistical issue with finding times in diaries, but it was very much the UK Government's intention for it to meet before the summit for the Cabinet Secretary to be able to discuss it with her counterparts. But, at the moment, there is not a date.

Okay, that's good to hear. And in terms of the day-to-day working of the TCA, Welsh Government is an observer in some of the groups, where appropriate. How would you characterise how it has worked?

Obviously, the observer status wasn't our preference but I think that, so far, it does appear to be working, and I think that the way in which the UK Government has engaged with us through our officials has been really helpful in that regard. So, we're able to propose agenda items, for example, and we're able to explore those debating lines, if you like, with the UK Government so that we have agreed positions that are being discussed. So, I think that's all been very positive in terms of those opportunities to engage and influence.

Okay.

A straightforward question: will the Welsh Government attend the 19 May summit?

So, I can't answer that yet because I'm not sure what the arrangements are. Those discussions are still ongoing, but as soon as I'm able to provide an answer to that to committee, we will.

Do you expect to be invited?

As I say, we would hope to have clarity on the role that we're able to play in those discussions. Ultimately, these are negotiations between the UK Government and the EU, but very importantly, it will inevitably cover areas that are devolved to us. So, we would expect to be able to have opportunities to put forward our case.

What role do you think you'll have to play in the implementation review?

Again, this is really about ensuring that our priorities are well understood by the UK Government. We haven't had issues where UK Government hasn't understood our particular priorities, and I think that they would be priorities, actually, that are shared across the UK. So, we're not in a situation, really, where we're having debates over these things, if you like. I think they're opportunities to share the points that I think are probably shared across other Governments.

And finally from me, how are you supporting Welsh organisations to feed into the TCA's civil society structures?

The Wales Council for Voluntary Action has a membership seat on those structures. We support the WCVA through discussions and through regular meetings with them concerning the TCA, so that they're fully able to discuss their concerns with us. Equally, again, another forum for those discussions would be the trade policy advisory group, which I chair, and, as I say, which we had a recent meeting of, I think it was just a couple of weeks ago. That, again, is a really useful forum, and brings together some quite diverse perspectives.

All co-ordination is done through the international relations and trade directorate. That's just ensuring that we have that single point within the Welsh Government that all teams will report to in relation to issues relating to the TCA. 

Just to add to that comment, Cabinet Secretary, that includes our Brussels office and our representative on Europe, and that's all within the one directorate, and that is both reporting to the Cabinet Secretary and to the First Minister, as we've heard earlier. So, that relationship, plus the way we're supporting exporters, all falls within the one group of people.

The trade policy advisory group is very much focused on trade, but also includes wider discussions, around the SPS, for example. But there are other opportunities within other teams to explore the non-trade elements of this. So, I don't think that we discern any gaps in that work. But, Emily, I don't know if you've got anything else to say on that.

It is focused on trade, but some of the members come from a wider audience. We've got Public Health Wales, for instance, represented on TPAG. The purpose of the group is to talk about trade deals, but we don't just look at the trade consequences of trade deals, we look at all of the consequences of trade deals. So, it's looking at things like the impact of trade deals on health, on communities, on the Welsh language—all of that. So, yes, it is trade focused, but it's not narrowly focused on the economic impacts of trade—it goes broader than that.

At the moment, our focus is on the implementation of the TCA, or the review of it, and the wider reset work. So, our focus isn't on the MOU. It might be that, after May, we would be in a position to start thinking about an MOU. But in the interim, we've had the development of that guidance that I was referring to, which sets out how the UK Government should be engaging with the devolved Governments. So, I think that that has been an important step forward as well.

Yes, it's certainly something that we could be exploring in future, because we do have new structures, or relatively new now, through the inter-ministerial meetings that have been established. So, certainly, there could be value in that, but I don't think it's an immediate priority, given the other work that is going on.

Shall I ask Emily to talk about a bit of the information that we gather?

Sure. There's the data element. We obviously look at the Wales-specific data, and the data that the Cabinet Secretary has already covered is Wales specific. We do have a general issue with access to trade data in Wales in that we have access to high-level HMRC data, but we don't have access to the microdata that would help us really understand the impact on different sectors. There is some work going on to try and get more of that information, but at the moment, we don't have it. We do also gather a lot of information from the stakeholder engagement we do. The Cabinet Secretary has talked about TPAG—that's not the only engagement we do; we do a lot of ad hoc sector-specific engagement. We talk to a lot of umbrella bodies, so we have all that information as well, which is the anecdotal 'this is how businesses are actually finding trading with the EU at the moment', which, in a way, is just as important as the actual data itself.

I think there's definitely a case for alignment and benefits to be seen in alignment, but I think it would depend almost on a case-by-case basis as to what the specific details of that alignment might look like. There could be a case for it in terms of reducing barriers to trade—a clear case there. But, equally, we wouldn't want to be in a position where we were moving towards alignment in areas where we would see then a potential reduction in some of our standards or values around the environment, for example. So, I think you'd have to take it on a case-by-case basis as to what specifically was being looked at through the agreement. But there's certainly a case for it, and business makes quite a strong case for it in terms of reducing the barriers to trade as well.

A good outcome would be seeing some progress on the particular areas of priority that we've set out. The areas of priority that we've set out have been ones where we think there is reasonable prospect for progress, in the sense that lots of the issues can only really truly be resolved to absolute satisfaction by winding back the clock, and that's not going to happen. So, we do see areas where we can make genuine progress, and we've tried to be reasonable and pragmatic in the particular areas that we've chosen. And in many ways, they have reflected the concerns and priorities of the Senedd. So, the debate that we had for the culture committee's report, for example, you can see that coming through strongly in those areas of priority as well.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Cabinet Secretary, in your written evidence, you said that Wales's economy may be disproportionately impacted overall by Brexit and that trade does decrease. So, can I ask what steps you have taken, and are taking, to respond to the impact of Brexit on Welsh trade?

I'm really proud of the work that we're doing through our export team. We have a real understanding that businesses that export are actually more resilient, they're able to experience greater growth. So, that's one of the reasons why we've been able to continue to support our export programme. Recently, I announced a £3.5 million investment for 2025-26 to continue to deliver that really important piece of work.

Just to give you a flavour of what businesses can expect through the export support, we help them with one-to-one support to develop their own exporting strategies, and then we're able to provide them with support to undertake market research overseas. We can provide advice on local trading conditions, regulations and export procedures, and also to support businesses in identifying new customers overseas as well.

As part of that work, we hold our export trade missions, which are tremendously successful in terms of supporting businesses to access new markets or to develop their presence in existing markets for them. Since the export strategy was introduced in 2020, export deals have been secured worth over £320 million as a direct result of that particular support.

And then, just to reflect on the two Explore Export events, which we held recently, we had one in Cardiff and one in Llandudno. Both were really well attended. They had the opportunity for businesses  to have one-to-one discussions with people who could advise on particular markets—so, globally, opportunities to understand markets and the opportunities there. At those events as well, we had some panel discussions, where businesses talked about the real difference that the Welsh Government's support had provided in terms of their export ambitions. So, I'm really pleased with that particular strand of work that is going to on.

Thanks for that, Cabinet Secretary. With the review in mind, and notwithstanding all the work that the Welsh Government is already doing to support in terms of exports and trade, are there certain things you would want from the review that would help boost Welsh trade?

There are definitely some specific things, potentially smaller things, that could be addressed through the review, such as guidance, the transparency on rules of origin, and also the alignment of digital systems with customs and the sharing of information on marketing and labelling. Those are things that could fundamentally improve the implementation of this TCA, but without changing the agreement itself, so relatively small but practical things that could be done.

And then there are wider things that could be addressed through a reset, for example—boosting trade through a sanitary and phytosanitary agreement, improvements around rules of origin, and potentially new agreements on mutual recognition of conformity assessment bodies, and, of course, the improved mobility arrangements as well. So, there are definitely specific things that we hope to see some progress on.

Thanks. You just mentioned in your answer then around wanting an SPS agreement. Are you able to provide the committee with any update or insight on discussions with the UK Government and the EU on that agreement?

The Deputy First Minister leads at ministerial level on those discussions, and, as I mentioned, he does attend and have those discussions through the inter-ministerial group for environment, fisheries and rural affairs. So, perhaps I could ask Huw to provide the committee with a note on that. But, of course, officials do have those weekly meetings now on this specific issue as well.

Just one final point from me, Cadeirydd. The committee received evidence that the TCA has led to animal welfare issues, whether that's holding back progress on standards, or, sadly, animals being destroyed at the border due to long delays as a consequence of Brexit. What is the Welsh Government's view on how that could be, potentially, addressed within the review?

Again, Huw would probably be best placed to comment, but the TCA does allow the Welsh Government, and the UK more generally, to pursue our own standards on animal welfare, and ensures a right to regulate on this and other issues. The TCA doesn't inhibit our ability to pursue higher standards on animal welfare issues. And while the review can consider how some aspects of the process of exporting are implemented, including border issues, which, again, is something that Huw leads on, it can't amend the requirements of the agreement. So, if there are any issues with the existing requirements, a new SPS agreement could address some of those issues.

So, we take every opportunity to refer to the issues raised within the report with the UK Government, and I know officials have specifically talked to UK Government counterparts about the report itself, but also the debate, so that UK Government is very clear that this is something that is of concern to the whole Senedd. So, just to reassure committee that we do take every opportunity to raise the report, and the issues more widely that were raised within it.

So, there’s no progress, really, that we can demonstrate at this stage, because we’re still at such an early stage in relation to that reset work and so on, and still don’t have the terms of reference, for example, for the discussions in terms of the review. So, we can’t demonstrate progress; all we can do is reassure that the points are being raised consistently.

I think the key point there, really, and particularly on business mobility, is that we can’t replicate what we had before we left the EU. So, the priority, really, is for the UK to seek significant changes in relation to mobility arrangements. So, those, really, would have to be negotiated, I think, beyond the TCA, just given the nature of those. And we would want to have to find a way, really, in which the artists wouldn’t have to be dealing with 27 different sets of rules and regulations and bureaucracies and so on. We have to accept that things will never be as smooth as they were. This is a priority area, but, unfortunately, things are so early in these discussions that we can’t demonstrate progress at the moment.

So, there were specific things in relation to haulage services and customs, and it’s difficult to see how changes could be made without some amendments to the TCA. So, we’ve been raising those particular issues with the UK Government. But, as I say, the terms of reference are yet to be agreed.

But I think, also, just recognising how long the negotiations took in relation to the TCA in the first place, any revised wording, I think, is going to be a long process as well, given the fact that they would have to then agree that with 27 member states. So, I think that, in a pragmatic way, it might be worth considering negotiating side agreements—so, that would be something that we would encourage the UK Government to be looking at as well—on specific areas that relate to the report that the committee produced.

So, again, this is something that we continually raise in terms of wanting to access EU programmes—so, Creative Europe being one of those, and Erasmus+ being another. So, we want to see those as priority areas for discussions. We would need to apply to the EU to rejoin Creative Europe. So, again, this is an area where amendments to the TCA wouldn’t be required. A number of non-EU countries already participate, so I think there is significant hope for us to be able to do that. I suppose the question would be around the finances of it, because, clearly, before, it was part of our membership fee, if you like. But we did receive around £100 million of support to the UK, so it’s likely that that would be the starting point for any negotiations in terms of discussions on costs. But our understanding in terms of costs to Welsh Government is that the only cost would be for a member of staff to manage the Creative Europe Wales desk. So, that, I guess, would be part of the UK Government's consideration in terms of its investment in this. But we're very, very keen to rejoin that, alongside Erasmus+ as well. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I just wanted to see and ask what assessment you yourself make as Cabinet Secretary, and, indeed, the Welsh Government, obviously, of global economic changes. Obviously, there are going to be some big announcements and changes happening at 8 p.m. this evening in terms of tariffs on exports to the USA. What ongoing assessment—? How live is the Welsh Government, in terms of the UK TCA agreement, in terms of those, shall I say, tertiary economic things going on that we don't necessarily have control over but could have an impact on our dealings, and, indeed, the costs and more economic impacts on what we produce in Wales, the UK and, indeed, the European Union as well?

Yes, so we do seek to have those discussions at both ends—so, having discussions with the UK Government to understand its position and what it thinks in terms of what the impact might be of various geopolitical things that are happening at the moment, particularly in the space of trade, but then also ensuring that we're discussing with our stakeholders what their concerns are. So, just yesterday, for example, I met with representatives of unions who are in the steel sector to talk about their concerns around steel tariffs, potential automotive tariffs and so on—so, just really having those opportunities to have good information sharing with the UK Government and also understanding the concerns of stakeholders. I think it's quite staggering how little we know about what's going to be announced later on today, but, as soon as we do have more clarity, we'll be able to explore what it means for us and have some further discussions then.  

Yes, I appreciate that. I say that, or ask that question, as an ongoing live situation, given that it's a bit of a topical issue at the moment. Obviously, in terms of my own position—. I know that there are factions within your own party that want to rejoin the EU and things such; as a staunch Brexiteer, and on the vote 'leave' campaign, as I was back in 2016, all of the conversations and things around this do rub against the grain with me, perhaps, more than it would do others. I would just ask: what remit do you think the Welsh Government can operate on within a UK context, given that previous decisions were made nearly a decade ago and such progress has been made over that time in terms of where we've come as a country? And whether you disagree with it or agree with it, or whatever your stance is on it, how do we feel that—? You know, what mandate have we got to be doing things like wanting to rejoin certain EU programmes? The people who voted for Brexit certainly wanted a clean break from some of those things and to set our own course, so when you're saying things like, 'Oh, we'll join Erasmus again, we'll join certain EU programmes', the public watching this meeting will be saying, 'What mandate have you got to be doing this, given that Wales voted to leave the EU and, indeed, the UK did as well?'

We might be in danger of slightly straying outside the remit of what we're looking at, but I don't want to deprive you of the opportunity to respond to that. 

Well, I think that, by any measure, I don't think that Brexit could be described as a success, particularly in relation to trade. So, I set out at the start—

But that's our job, to make it work, isn't it? That's our job.

If we can let the Cabinet Secretary respond.

—the impact that Brexit has had on trade specifically. It's not unusual for countries outside of the EU to participate in EU programmes. So, Creative Europe, for example, has membership from countries outside of Europe because they see the benefit of it. So, that isn’t something that is unusual in that particular sense. Some countries, I know, are part of one or two of the strands, and some countries go for all three of the strands of Creative Europe. So, that could be something that we should be looking at, really, to address the concerns that this particular committee has addressed in that particular space. I don’t want to debate the whole Brexit issue over again, because it’s been done. We can’t wind back the clock, no matter how much some of us would like to.

Okay?

Yes. If we return to culture, there are still some questions there. You’ve mentioned in terms of Creative Europe and Erasmus+. Are there any other programmes that you're looking to, that you’ve assessed would be beneficial for us to be able to participate in?

I think that those are the key ones that we would want to participate in. Besides that, there are other coalitions and other groups that we’re involved with, which I described in the debate as well, which are kind of pan-European or global alliances and co-operations, which aren’t specific to the EU but other bodies that we are aligned to that are helpful to us as well.

Thank you. You mentioned in your response to me around Creative Europe that you're trying to get clarity in terms of the resource, how much it would cost and so on. Have you been in touch with any other non-EU countries to find out the costs in terms of their participation, or to look at models, or is this something you’d consider, if not?

We can certainly look into that, definitely.

Okay, great. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr. Obviously, there’s no environmental or climate part or chapter to the TCA, but obviously it is quite a fundamental basis upon which much of the co-operation is promoted or designed, including the fight against climate change and global co-operation on issues of shared economic, environmental and social interest. So, why—? And I was looking then at your list of priorities, of course, and I don’t see much of a read-across in terms of environment and climate co-operation. Why is that?

So, the reason for that is that the environment and climate provisions within the TCA already do set a high level of ambition. They are areas where we think that the TCA actually is more than sufficient, really, for us in terms of delivering ambitions. That’s, essentially, the long and the short of it.

Yes, okay. Looking at this, obviously, maintaining a level playing field and non-regression is important, but there are maybe concerns that UK Government, potentially, in some of the things it’s said recently about planning—. There may be concerns around environmental protections et cetera. You’re not concerned that maybe there’s a discussion that needs to happen internally as part of the preparations, to make sure that we don’t fall into a trap of regressing.

So, the environment and climate provisions are covered by commitments in terms of that level playing field to which you referred, and that does require that neither party can reduce or weaken their levels of environmental protection below those that were there at the end of 2020.

So, if there was an effort to change that, you'd resist that, clearly.

So, Welsh Government, I think, is very clear in terms of—

Yes, just asking.

—our approach to environmental protections and so forth. That's always right at the top of the—

So, that's a 'yes', I think, isn't it? Yes, okay.

Oh, I think Emily wanted to come in.

Emily.

Sorry, yes, Emily. Sorry.

It was just to add. I'm sure you've—hopefully—seen our approach to trade policy, which is our document that we published last summer, which explains—. If you've read that, it should be clear that environment and environmental co-operation underpins everything we do for trade policy. So, it is extremely important to us, and it is an important part of the TCA. I think it’s simply that the issues that you’re talking about we wouldn’t see as an issue that needs to be addressed through the review. Yes, of course, if we weren’t meeting our obligations because we’d messed up on the non-regression clause, that would be a problem and that would be a concern to us; it’s just the review itself wouldn’t be a priority way to resolve that.

And environmental governance became a concern in Wales—that's been flagged, hasn't it, but that's a work in progress. So, yes, we'll await that piece of legislation when it comes. 

Your priorities, of course, do include effective electricity trading arrangements. Now, Wales is already a net exporter and, in that respect, I suppose we're different to the UK as a whole. So, what effect would you say that Brexit has had on Welsh electricity exports particularly, and how is that different maybe from how the rest of the UK has been affected? 

So, as you say, we are a net exporter, but we are still a small component really of the overall Great Britain market. So, the GB electricity market relies on imports all year long, and particularly so during winter. And in recent years, we’ve seen these trading arrangements functioning on short-term contracts, relying on good co-operation really between partners, and particularly in terms of responding to the energy issues after the invasion of Ukraine, for example. So, what we really want to see is more agreement on that kind of longer term approach. I think the TCA does recognise and encourage deeper co-operation and improved efficiency, which is something that we would clearly be supportive of.

In terms of particular areas where we would see potential for discussion in future, they might be around the development of energy infrastructure in the north sea, so, particular areas where I think it would be beneficial for both partners to work in co-operation in that space. So, I think that there’s significant opportunity for further working and just to give that energy security through those longer term arrangements would be very helpful.

And there are some areas that are of particular interest to us—relative, I suppose, interest to us—and this energy one would be one, I presume, and you’d hope that that would be reflected in the contributions that you could make to the UK representation on this.

Yes, I definitely think that longer term look in terms of energy would be a really important part. But TCA does enable those discussions as well, which I think is positive.

Okay. Your priorities don't include linking the UK and EU's emissions trading systems, but obviously evidence has been received from industry, particularly, calling for that to be done, as envisaged by the TCA, and for it to be expedited as well. So, I'm just wondering where you're at with respect to that.

So, again, this is an area that Huw Irranca-Davies leads on, so I might ask Emily just to come in on this particular point, if that's okay.

So, it’s not a priority, not because we don’t care about it—we’re very interested; there are definite discussions going on on it—it’s simply that it’s very, very complicated, so we didn’t want to include it as an outright, ‘Yes, we think this is a great idea’, at this stage. We’ve still got a lot of work to do internally to work out what our final position on it would be.

So, there's no prospect of any change imminently then, is there, in terms of timings and—?

That would be for the UK Government to decide.

Okay. So, what has the Welsh Government done to estimate the impact of the EU's carbon border adjustment mechanism on Welsh exports from carbon-intensive industries?

So, I understand that we have been doing some research, again through Huw Irranca-Davies’s team. Officials and economists have conducted an initial analysis of the EU CBAM on Welsh exports. We can share some more information—

Well, yes, given that it will impact, obviously, businesses, which is your responsibility primarily, isn't it? So, one would hope that you have quite a few discussions with the Deputy First Minister's team.

Just to add, we have, as the Cabinet Secretary says, done some internal research into looking at what it will look like, and we very much take into account the fact that it is a multifaceted impact. So, it's not just about the environment; it's about the cost, it's about what money you would make off a CBAM, but also the impact on business. We have already started doing engagement with businesses on the EU CBAM to try and explain what it is and how they'll be impacted, to make sure they're ready for it.

Okay. Diolch.

Okay. Diolch. Just before I ask Members for any further supplementaries, it's been remarked to us a few times that we're in a slightly perverse situation, because normally, with any trade deal, the impetus would be to remove all possible barriers, whereas where we're at at the moment, there is a deliberate decision to maintain some barriers. To what extent are you hemmed in by the UK Government's red lines not to return to the single market, the customs union, freedom of movement? To what extent is that decision to keep to the red lines a limiting factor for you in all of this?

So, I suppose that goes back to the point I made earlier about trying to find practical things that we can influence within the existing approach by the UK Government. So, that’s why we’ve looked at things where we see genuine potential for movement. As I say, we can’t wind the clock back.

Yes, of course. I'm going to bring Alun in on this.

I’m grateful to you for your time this morning, Cabinet Secretary, and I’m grateful also for the way in which you’ve outlined the Government’s approach to these matters. But I can’t help thinking that it’s a very piecemeal approach, isn’t it? Because it doesn’t seem to be an overarching EU strategy from Welsh Government. You’ve answered all our questions very fully and very well in all sorts of different ways, but I’m left thinking that the Welsh Government is approaching each individual aspect of policy that impacts upon the EU in quite a compartmentalised way, that there isn’t an overarching EU strategy group or EU strategy, or ambition, or objective for engagement with the EU, and I find that a little curious.

So, I can see where Alun’s asking me to go on this particular—

I'm not asking you to go anywhere. I'm asking you about the structures of Welsh Government.

So, we don’t take a different view to the UK Government in terms of the overall approach, but I do understand the point that is being made. The fact that we’ve tried to co-ordinate everything through the international relations and trade team, I think, is helpful in terms of giving that kind of central focus, but equally, it is such a wide-ranging relationship as well, so even today, we’ve talked about agriculture, health, trade, exports and so on, so it’s almost by its very nature something that crosses right across Government. So, just pulling it all together in one place, I think, has been helpful.

But it’s not, is it? That’s the clear lesson I’ve learnt from this morning’s session. It’s not all in one place. You do have officials dealing with it in the team that you’ve described—I’ve got no issue about that—but in terms of the leadership of that team, in terms of the political direction and the political strategy, where does the Welsh Government want this relationship to be when the Government leaves office in a year’s time? What will it have wanted to have achieved in that process? Where are the objectives by which we can hold you to account? And that’s what I feel is missing at the moment, that there isn’t a sort of collective approach. I’ve got no disagreement with anything that the Welsh Government is doing on this, by the way, but you seem to be coming to everything individually and not within an overarching approach that would give me reassurance that you have a strategic vision for the relationship.

So, I think in terms of where we would like to be, it would be strengthening and deepening our relationship with the EU, both in terms of trade, but then also culturally in the other areas that have been raised by colleagues within the Chamber. And we have to do that in different ways now, so we do it through all of those different research partnerships, for example, which I talked about in the debate. So, I think that the overall direction would be strengthening and deepening relationships, but within the confines of the changes to the—

Yes, I get all of that, and I’ve got no disagreement with you at all, but I’m a simple boy from Tredegar: what I like is a book; I like a document. I like to say, ‘This is the story of the next few years. This is where the Welsh Government wants to go. This is the ambition of Welsh Government.’ We know there are all sorts of storms around that can push a Government in different directions—we get all of that—but unless you’ve actually got that route-map, that road map ahead of you, it feels to me that those storms and those pressures are really dictating your agenda, and I would want the Welsh Government to have an agenda of its own that it seeks to pursue. Is that unfair?

Just before you answer that, I just wanted to draw Members’ attention to the fact that we are joined in the public gallery by very notable guests, by the EU ambassador and ambassadors from other member states. It is an honour for you to be here, for us to have you with us.

You're very welcome. Thank you very much for being here, and welcome to the Senedd. 

I didn't want to interrupt there, but if you could respond to Alun's question.

I think in terms of trade, of course, we've got our trade policy document, which sets out clearly where we would like to be. I'll ask Andrew to say a bit more in terms of his international relations role.

Thank you. It's probably not the answer you're looking for, Alun, but we have our international strategy. There's a very strong emphasis on Europe within that, both the regional priority relationships that we have, the relationship with Ireland and that excellent collaboration that we have in all sorts of different fields. We also, in our export support, have turned our hand to really supporting companies when it comes to working in Europe. That wasn't something that we'd needed to do prior to Brexit, it was a home market, so it was a different scenario. So, we've absolutely drawn all of that together, and it does sit within the international strategy. No, it's not a Europe strategy, or a European strategy, that is true, but we've had, understandably, a very strong steer from the First Minister that now is not the time to be forming new strategies, but to deliver what we've already set out in our five-year international strategy, and also through the implementation plan that we will talk through later on.

So, please, I know it's not a European strategy, but it is very much the case that there is a strong emphasis on our work with Europe. There's a strong co-ordination, both through our Brussels office and through the work that Emily does and the team, and that is very much focused on doing the best for Wales and with the priorities that we're finding in Wales, setting those out and implementing those.

And the work of the Brussels office is important, we were there a month ago, and it's always very impressive. But I want to know what is the engagement that the Welsh Government, at ministerial or official level, intends to have with the institutions of the EU. I understand the point you make about trade and exports, and I make no criticism at all of that, I think it's good work, but what is the purpose? We know the work that Derek Vaughan does, which is excellent, first class, I'm very supportive of that. But what is the ambition for the Cabinet Secretary or the First Minister or the Deputy First Minister in terms of their own engagement with the institutions of the EU, because, historically, we've had a very powerful relationship, and we know where we are today, so, where do we want to be tomorrow? And how will we create that if we don't have that strategic approach?

I'm actually very attracted to what Alun's setting out in terms of a more strategic approach and a kind of clarity of vision as to where we would want those relationships to be in future, so I'll give it some further thought. I'm sure we're on the same page—

I'm sure we are.

—on this one.

I suspect I may have pushed my luck sufficiently far this morning.

We are drawing near to the close. I'll go next to Heledd Fychan.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I just wanted to pick up on that last point in terms of the international strategy, and I understand there are no new strategies, but it was very clear from our 'Culture Shock' report that, actually, the strategy will not address a number of our concerns. So, I understand you're working to that, but surely with some of the other things that we've discussed that need to happen, how are you ensuring that that strategy doesn't stop us from being able to progress on the matters as highlighted and we've discussed?

I think that speaks to Alun's point, actually, about how we've got strategies, but there are also events that happen as well, so we need to respond to those, and opportunities that arise. So, the reset, for example, is an opportunity that we couldn't have envisaged when the strategy itself was published. So, I think it's both, really; it's about working to the strategy, but also taking advantage of opportunities.

Diolch.

Okay. Could I check finally—? I'll bring Adam in, actually. Adam Price.

I just wanted to ask you a little bit more about the Welsh Government's input into the UK Government's thinking and its negotiating position. You haven't yet seen a draft position statement, a terms of reference or something of that nature that sets out—I mean in private now, in terms of inter-governmental relations—what the UK Government's position is going to be. Have you had a—? Well, I'll pause there. Have you seen that negotiating document?

I'll ask Emily to say what she can about discussions that we're having with the UK Government. At the moment, obviously, everything is, for obvious reasons, in terms of negotiations, confidential.

We won't tell anyone, don't worry. [Laughter.]

We haven't seen an overarching document that says, 'The UK Government wishes X, Y and Z with the EU'. I'm not aware if that exists or not, but we definitely have not seen that. In terms of positions, we are aware of some of the detail behind some of the specific issues that may be addressed, but we've not seen an overarching, 'These are the top 10 asks of the UK Government'. We haven't seen that yet, no.

Right. Have you seen something that could be described more as a scoping document, what is going to be covered within the review?

For the whole—?

From the perspective of the UK Government.

No.

No. I mean, I'm uninitiated in the art of inter-governmental relations, but I'm surprised at that lack of engagement. Given that you are two Governments from the same party, then I would've expected an open-book approach to these matters. Are you surprised as well, Minister?

Not at this point. I think that the next opportunity will be the inter-ministerial meeting, and then we will formally have those discussions. But, as I say, officials are meeting every other week with counterparts, but weekly on the SPS side of things. So, the frequency of meetings is definitely there, and we would expect to have more detailed discussions ahead of 19 May.

If I may, you mentioned that you're having meetings with Nick Thomas-Symonds and others, and it's good to hear that those meetings are happening. I think this committee, or these committees, did ask him to appear before us. That was declined, I believe. Would you prefer to see the UK Government Ministers engaging directly with Senedd committees on this very matter?

I can't speak for Nick, but I'm assuming that he would find it difficult to answer questions in relation to negotiating positions at this point, but I'm sure that committee might want to invite him at a point when it will be less sensitive.

He's probably facing the same dilemma in terms of Westminster parliamentary scrutiny, and Ministers are well versed in finding ways of not answering questions in the politest way possible, so I'm sure that that isn't a particular difficulty that would just apply to his appearance here. But, generally speaking, would you prefer the UK Government to engage with not just all devolved Governments, but all devolved Parliaments, as well, as a general rule?

Yes, as a general rule, I think it's really helpful. I always accept invitations to appear before UK Parliament committees—I'm always very happy to do so.

Maybe we should ask for a memorandum of understanding on that as well, Minister. [Laughter.]

Diolch. We are into our final 11 minutes. I'm going to ask for brief final questions from Alun and then from Gareth. Alun.

I just want to put on the public record for clarity—in your response to Adam there, we have this summit on 19 May and you have a meeting that you're trying to sort out as an inter-ministerial UK meeting at some point before then—that you and the Welsh Government have played no part in the development of a UK position prior to that, and there's been no conversation between you, as Minister, other Ministers, or officials in the development of that UK position.

No. I've had bilateral meetings with Nick Thomas-Symonds, as has the First Minister, setting out our Welsh Government priorities for those discussions. And we've also had a meeting of the inter-ministerial committee on EU relations, where we discussed this as well, but what we haven't seen is the final UK Government negotiating position. But we've had those discussions where we can input our particular views.

So, you've been giving, if you like, the UK Government your position through face-to-face meetings and through communication of position papers, but there's been no—. This is not a co-produced, jointly produced position; this is something that the UK Government is doing somewhere within the Cabinet Office, no doubt. 

The UK Government is developing is negotiating positions. Our concerns are that where devolved matters are part of those negotiating positions, then clearly we need to have involvement in agreeing those. Also, we've set out a list of priority areas that we want the UK Government to address as well. 

Okay. Just before I come to Gareth, you said, Cabinet Secretary, that there'll be an inter-ministerial group before the 19 May summit. Is there a date for that?

No, they're still trying to find a date that works for everyone. 

Okay. Diolch. Thank you. I'll go to Gareth. 

Thank you, Chair. It's a similar line of questioning just in response to Adam's questions in saying, or asking, indeed, how you assess your role as Cabinet Secretary and, indeed, the Welsh Government's role in terms of that relationship with the UK Government. Do you often feel—? In terms of what you can do, do you feel that you have to go through the UK Government or do you feel, sometimes, undermined by what the UK Government are doing or, indeed, that communication stream in terms of getting those meetings—all relevant meetings—with EU partners to have those discussions and negotiations? Do you informally in the office go, 'Oh, I wish Nick Thomas-Symonds would bugger off and just let us do what we're supposed to be doing'? I say that informally, but to put that in a—

I'd just ask Members to refrain from using language like that in the session. 

I apologise. But, in those sorts of terms, do you feel that you've got a prominent enough role as a Welsh Government to, indeed, have those discussions directly, or do you feel that you're held back slightly by the UK Government in terms of getting those meetings with people to have those relevant discussions?

So, I think, ultimately, the negotiation takes place between the UK Government and the EU, but it's important that we have those opportunities to discuss areas that are devolved to us. And I think it's been really positive that the guidance that has been co-developed, which has been finalised following some further input from devolved Government officials, sets out how that relationship will work as we move forward now through this period where the negotiations will take place. So, I do think it's appropriate that those discussions are held between the UK Government and the EU, because that's where that takes place but, equally, it's important that we have our chance to influence where things impact on the Welsh Government and the Senedd. 

Adam, a very brief final question and then, Alun. Okay. So, Adam. 

I just wanted to ask to what extent you have engaged bilaterally with the other devolved administrations and whether common ground has been identified, and whether you have sought to co-ordinate your engagement with the UK Government in order to try and influence the UK Government's position, which you're not aware of at the moment, but as it emerges?

I'll ask Emily to say a bit about discussions with colleagues in devolved Governments.

So, on an official level, yes, we speak to our counterparts in Northern Ireland and Scotland frequently about our positions.

And have you identified common ground? Could you describe that common ground? Is that something you'd put in the public domain, based on—? I mean, the Scottish Government have set out their own review priorities, haven't they, for the TCA review. 

I think, at a high level, yes. So, many of the priorities that we've talked about—high-level priorities—align. We have similar asks. I think Scotland, perhaps, have slightly different asks in some areas or priorities where things may be more important to them than they are to us, but they're a priority for both of us, nevertheless. When it comes to the more technical discussions, yes, we have aligned views on some of those. That's the information that I'm unable to share.

On those issues where you've identified common ground between the devolved administrations, is there some distance still between that common ground on those issues and, as far as you're able to assess, the current position of the UK Government, or are the devolved administrations and the UK Government in exactly the same place on these issues?

I'm not sure how much we can—

Oh, go on.

I'm not sure how much we would want to say in relation to what we understand the UK Government's position to be on various things, because we don't want to speak on behalf of the UK Government, especially at a sensitive time, ahead of negotiations.

Would I have been right in interpreting that answer as saying that you cannot say today that, as to the common ground—you've said there is common ground on some issues between the devolved administrations—you're not able to confirm that the UK Government and the devolved administrations are in exactly the same position on those matters?

It's the level of detail that you want that confirmation on. So, if we took an issue, say the SPS agreement, we all know that the UK Government has a manifesto commitment, I think, to make a veterinary agreement, but let's call it an SPS agreement for now. We know that the Scottish Government is very supportive of an SPS agreement. We are also supportive of an SPS agreement. So, there is alignment on the broad areas. What we can't go into is the detail of what everybody's positions are that underline that—

No, of course. But, presumably, not just in the detail but in terms of the macro position, when we were talking earlier about to what extent you are limited by the red lines that have been set by the UK Government's position, presumably, as Adam is intimating, there would be a difference there, would there, between where the devolved administrations would be. Is your impression at the moment that there is a difference there in terms of those red lines?

So, our approach and the arguments that we're putting forward are within the UK Government's parameters—so, identifying areas where we think that progress can be made whilst also remaining within the parameters the UK Government has set.

But I'm just trying to understand—. I realise that, to some extent, you're having to use oblique language, but there's common ground on some significant matters—shall I put it in those terms—not just technical questions. There is common position on a whole range of matters between the devolved administrations. Is the UK Government in the same place at a high level in terms of those significant policy positions, or are there more than just technical differences of opinion and there is still some distance to be travelled to get unanimity between the common ground you have identified in the devolved administrations and the position of the UK Government? Is there a gap still?

So, I think in the absence of the UK Government having set out any more detail, I don't think it would be appropriate for me to answer that question today.

So, you're not able to say whether you're in the same—. You are able to say that you're in the same place as the devolved administrations, but you're not able to say whether the devolved administrations are in the same place as the UK Government on the same matters.

The reason for that being that devolved administrations have published more in relation to their own priority areas.

Okay. That's useful. We have a minute left, so, Alun, you can have a very brief question—that's a challenge.

You're being very generous with us this morning, Cabinet Secretary. In your evidence to the committee, you're very clear that you see Wales wishing to participate in a broader range of EU programmes, including Erasmus, territorial co-operation, Creative Europe and future Horizon programmes, and you've said that to us very clearly this morning. Now, one of the real tragedies of Brexit, of course, is that, as a participant in EU programmes, we used to be able to shape some of those programmes as well—and we've seen Taith become a very great success in the few years that it's been running—. So, I take it from the overall position that the Welsh Government has adopted in this piece, in this area, that you would also be supportive of a general youth mobility programme that's been proposed as well, and the Welsh Government would start from a positive perspective looking at that?

Yes.

Thank you.

Okay. In that case, I'm just going to be very cheeky and ask one final question; I'll use the Chair's prerogative. We've talked already about the ongoing situation with the US, and you mentioned the need to respond to events. Could you just talk us through, briefly, how you're balancing your priorities to do with the EU and to do with the US?

So, I think, with the US, it really is about understanding now what Trump has in mind and what his plans are, and undertaking that analysis, really, to understand what the impacts are for us, engaging with stakeholders, where necessary, to understand what their priorities might be, and, of course, talking to the UK Government, then, about what a collective response might look like. So, yes, as I said, there's remarkably little information as to what might transpire, but as soon as we are able to say, or are able to have more information, we'll be able to respond appropriately. But you're right, there are a number of complex things going on at the same time. That's why it's important that we have the co-ordination role through the international relations and trade team.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for the evidence this morning. There will be a transcript that will be sent to you to check that it is a fair record of what's been said.

Thank you so much.