National Assembly for Wales

The meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. I'd like to thank Peter Fox for his contribution to the committee previously. He has been replaced by Joel James. I'd like to move on to apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest.

—from Joel James. He is not able to attend today. I have a declaration of interest in reference to petition P-06-1387, which is 'Provide humanitarian aid to Gaza', which was submitted by a staff member of mine, Sam Swash. Are there other any other declarations of interest?

I should draw people's attention to both item 2.2—I don't think I have a declaration of interest, but the petitioner, I think, is talking about me in part of it—but also, when we come on to discuss the potential harm from COVID vaccines, of course, I was the health Minister during the first part of the vaccination programme.

Thank you, Vaughan. 

So, if we move on to agenda item 2, new petitions, so item 2.1, P-06-1482, 'Ban smartphones in all schools in Wales (with exemptions for exceptional circumstances)', and it reads:

'Inspired by the movements Smartphone Free Childhood and Delay Smartphones, as well as recent compelling research on the profound negative effects of smartphones on children, we call on Senedd Cymru to ban them in all schools in Wales, with exemptions for exceptional circumstances. Smartphone use poses significant wellbeing and safeguarding concerns. We are deeply worried about our children's social development and mental health and believe all pupils have the right to a smartphone-free school.'

And that was submitted by Zena Blackwell with 3,369 signatures. So, we had an inquiry into this last Monday, didn't we, as a committee. So, could I invite Rhys to discuss the petition and any actions?

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. As you mention, we had very interesting roundtable discussions a fortnight ago on this very topical matter, and we're conducting a short inquiry where we'll be considering all the evidence. Of course, at the moment, in Wales, the policy is a matter for individual schools—different guidance in England, of course—but we'll be considering all of the evidence at the roundtable and any further evidence we receive, and, hopefully, producing a report in March with certain recommendations to the Welsh Government. So, thank you to Zena Blackwell for the petition and for raising this topical and very interesting discussion. Thank you.

Yes, thank you. Anybody else like to input at this stage? Thank you. So, we will be producing that report, thank you, which will be ready in March. Okay.

If we move on to item 2.2, petition p-06-1468, 'Set stricter rules to limit gifts, donations and payments received by Members of Senedd':

'There has been wide public concern over large donations given to a prominent Member of Senedd. Lessons must be learnt from this.'

Can I—? It was submitted by Lyn Eynon—

'Eynon', that's how he pronounces it.

—with 343 signatures. Could I invite Luke to discuss this petition?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. At the moment, I know the standards committee is doing work around this, so can I just suggest that we just keep this open until that work is completed by the standards committee? 

Okay, thank you. Are we in agreement with that? Yes, okay. So, await the standards committee recommendations. Thank you.

So, if we move on now to item 2.3, petition P-06-1469, 'Any Government policy or project that costs more than £10 Million must be voted in by the electorate':

'Any Government policy or project that will cost more than £10 Million should be put to the electorate in the form of referendum to ratify. The abuse of public funds for disastrous pet Government crackpot ideas must stop!

'Millions in tax payers funds have been consistently squandered and wasted by the Welsh Government, the disaster that was the M4 relief around Newport, the £35 Million wasted on introducing a 20 MPH speed limit is the latest policy rejected by the electorate but imposed anyway.'

That was submitted by Hector Smithers with 575 signatures. So, Luke, would you like to take this one as well?

Yes. Diolch, Gadeirydd. I think £10 million is a very low bar. We wouldn't be able to do anything if we were to go by that point. But the reality is there is a clearly set out process already here in the Senedd through the budget. We're going through the budget process at the moment. The Government's also been quite clear in the past on similar petitions to this so I can't see us as a committee taking this forward any more. Ultimately, as has been said before, if people aren't happy with policies that are put forward by the Government or any party, then they don't have to vote for them at the ballot box. So, I would say that the best route forward on this petition is that we thank the petitioner but close the petition. 

Okay, thank you. Anybody else like to come in? Okay. I agree. We have a £60 million pothole fund. It's a small amount, isn't it, £10 million, compared to the budget, for different things. Thank you.

So, moving on to item 2.4, petition P-06-1470, 'Scrap the Racist and ridiculous Anti-Racist Wales Plan'. It reads:

'Did you know that in 2020/21 the Welsh Gov consulted on a Draft Race Equality Action Plan? Renamed the Anti-Racist Wales Plan? No? ONLY 500 people responded to this consultation in total. This “Plan” is to change government policies in order to meet “Equity” quotas. Not equality. I believe this is discriminatory and racist and based on Critical Race THEORY. And anecdotal personal experiences. Not fact. It warns of the “consequences of a colour-blind approach”. This needs to be scrapped immediately.'

This was submitted by Jasmin McNally, with 433 signatures. So, Vaughan, could I bring you in to discuss this?

Yes. The 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan’ was endorsed by the Senedd across all parties. The petitioner is entitled to have a different point of view, but we're not going to change Government policy or the view of the Senedd on this. I disagree in strong terms with the emotive and offensive language used by the petitioner, but that's what happens in a democracy. I don't believe there is more action that the committee can take. We simply have a disagreement of views, and, if she wants people to agree with her, then the ballot box is the way to do it. So, I suggest we close the petition. 

Okay. Are we in agreement with that? Thank you. Moving forward, we're going to close the petition. Thank you.

Moving on to item 2.5, petition P-06-1477, 'A new Senedd Act to Recall Local Government Councillors':

'As it stands there is no mechanism for constituents to remove a sitting local Councillor other than at the next election, which are very five years. There needs to be an Act similar to Recall of MPs but this time Recall of Councillors.

'I believe it is only fair that we treat and deal with Local Councillors in the same way as Members of Parliament. If they are not doing their job they should be removed and replaced with someone who will carry out the wishes of the people who voted them in.'

This was submitted by Russell Spencer-Downe, with 686 signatures. Okay. Could I invite Rhys in?

Thank you, Cadeirydd. The Cabinet Secretary has responded saying that this has recently been subject to an independent review, which found that the current framework was fit for purpose. So, the Welsh Government aren't taking matters forward with regard to this. The petitioner has responded saying that the current arrangements do not cover councillors neglecting their public duty, and that seems to be the issue that the petitioner has. But I think, in light of the recent review, and in light of the fact that councillors can be removed if they do not attend a certain number of meetings, and clearly within six months, it's not clear what more this committee can do. So, we thank the petitioner and close the petition.

Okay. Anybody else? No. Thank you. They can be reported to the standards ombudsman can't they, as well? So, just as here.

They certainly can, and they are.

And they are, yes. Very often. Okay, thank you. So, we'll close that petition.

Agenda item 2.6 is petition P-06-1483, 'Give neighbours their say when holiday let owners start applying for licences'. The petition says:

'There are thousands of holiday lets in Wales. This means that many of us have suddenly found ourselves living near businesses instead of homes, and we’ve had no say in the matter. The holiday let licensing scheme in Scotland allows neighbours to respond to licence applications: the neighbours’ responses may then be considered as potential grounds for refusing an application. We want Welsh Government to include neighbour consultation in Wales’ holiday let licensing scheme too.'

The submitter is Jacqueline Cullimore, and there are 1,027 signatures, and there are also paper signatures, so the total is actually 2,060 signatures altogether. Could I bring Luke in to discuss this?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I'm very sympathetic with this petition, actually. It could be worth us highlighting this with the Cabinet Secretary as well as the Local Government and Housing Committee. Firstly with the Cabinet Secretary just to receive some initial comments, but also then with the housing committee to see what sort of work that they have planned over the next, well, 15 months, to see if there's any way that this could slot in. And we keep the petition, then, open and pending responses from both those recipients, so the Cabinet Secretary and the committee.

Yes, okay. Are we in agreement, committee? Thank you. Okay, is that captured? Thank you.

So, moving on to petition 2.7, petition P-06-1487, 'Provide a pedestrian crossing on A4042 Llanover; make safe for bus users and reduce the speed limit'.

'The busy A4042 runs directly through the heritage village of Llanover. Residents and visitors need to cross the road to use the bus service, access the amenity of the Mon and Brecon Canal and visit the renown Llanover Gardens which open to the public at intervals through the year. The speed limit is currently 40mph. Residents of all ages do not feel safe to use the bus service. The village attracts visitors at all times of the year. The bus stops are located near to the garden entrance.'

This was submitted by Janet Butler, with 269 signatures collected. Okay. Could I bring Vaughan in to discuss this?

Yes. This is a local issue and that's reflected in the size of the petition as well. It's also reflected in the fact that both constituency Members in both Parliaments, the UK and the Welsh Parliaments, have made representations on the issue and they've had a response from the Cabinet Secretary here, and the positive news is that he's asked officials to arrange a meeting to open discussions regarding the concerns raised and indicated that he'll be in a position to update us once that meeting has taken place. I think we should wait for a further update, but I think that would then be decision time. We all know that there are priorities in the budget and a range of other actions to be taken, so I'm not in favour of keeping the petition open forever, on an open-ended basis, but I do think it's worth waiting for the Cabinet Secretary, given that he's indicated that we can expect an update in the not-too-distant future.

Okay, thank you. I note not keeping it open in the future, but await the response. We do often have people raising issues on A roads, don't we, where the traffic volume is high and it's hard crossing them? It’s raised quite often in the Senedd as well. Are we in agreement with that proposal? Okay, thank you.

Moving forward, 2.8, petition P-06-1493, ‘Ensure diagnosis and treatment for people suffering from adverse Covid-19 vaccine side effects’. The petition says:

‘I suffer from Covid-19 Vaccine Adverse Reaction. As a result, my life has changed beyond recognition. I struggle to do basic tasks, in constant pain and have become dependent on my family to care for me. In my experience, many health professionals do not acknowledge the symptoms and suffering caused by vaccine injury. I call for better awareness and an appropriate pathway for diagnosis and treatment for those experiencing such debilitating side effects.’

This was submitted by Alison Butler, with 10,898 signatures. I’d just like to say that 2,539 were from Wales only. Could I bring in Rhys?

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. This is a matter that probably all of us have had some correspondence from constituents on from time to time. The petitioner clearly welcomes the acknowledgement by the Cabinet Secretary that, regrettably, a small number of those vaccinated out of the 100 million vaccinated—a small number of those vaccinated may experience adverse effects that are more severe, persistent or have lasting effect. Now, many researchers are looking into this, and module 4 of the COVID-19 inquiry are beginning to look at the vaccination. This will also be considered by the Senedd committee here. For those reasons, I think it’s probably best that this is considered in those forums. Therefore, at this point, I don’t think it’s appropriate for us to have a debate in the Senedd, also bearing in mind that only a quarter of those who signed the petition were based in Wales. We don’t have to have a debate if it passes the 10,000 threshold. So, grateful for the petition, certainly a very important point, but I think it would be better if it was addressed in other forums first, and perhaps then maybe debated at the Senedd. So, at this point, it’s my suggestion that we thank the petitioner but close the petition. Diolch.

Okay, thank you. Are we in agreement? We thank and sympathise with the petitioner and we will close this petition. Sorry, for clarification, did we agree to close it because there are better forums?

Yes, I think so.

Yes, there are better forums where this is being discussed. Okay, thank you.

Chair—[Inaudible.]—as module 4 of the UK COVID inquiry has been mentioned, I will be giving written evidence to that module and many others, though I’m not sure yet whether I’ll be called to give oral evidence—just for the avoidance of doubt about why I expressed an interest at the start.

Okay, thank you, Vaughan, for that. 

If we move on now to 2.9, petition P-06-1494, ‘Welsh Government to protect funding in education from WG and Local Authority cuts’.

‘ALN Reform Wales call on Welsh Government to protect funding in education from WG and LA cuts. There are numerous reports of LA's putting out consultations or actual published budgets with massive cuts to education budget. Jeremy Miles pledged to invest in education. This cannot be allowed to happen to the most vulnerable members of society. Recent reports show Wales education standards have fallen. Our children's education is the best investment in social justice and a healthy economy.’

That was submitted by Catherine Drews, with 11,040 signatures—10,759 were Wales only. Okay, could I bring Rhys in again to discuss this?

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. It's clear from the support to this petition and also from public correspondence we've all received that this is a concern. This is an issue. Of course, we dealt with four petitions with regard to additional learning needs before Christmas, didn't we, in October? So, I certainly have sympathy. I think the comments of the petitioner should be sent to the Cabinet Secretary for Education, and also a copy to the Chair of the children and education committee, because I know they've done a lot of work on this point. With regard to having a debate—again, I don't think now is the time to have a specific debate on this, because, of course, we will have a debate on the budget at the beginning of February. So, we will not be able to get a debate on this before that, and I think there'll be an opportunity to raise these issues at the budget debate. I think that's the proper forum. So, I would keep the petition open for now, send the comments to the Cabinet Secretary and a copy to the committee, but not suggest a debate at this point. Diolch.

Are we in agreement with that, going forward? Yes. Thank you. We're in agreement with that.

That moves us on, then, to updates to previous petitions. Item 3.1 is petition P-06-1184, 'Immediately ban the use of toxic lead in all ammunition in Wales...lead is killing our wildlife!' That was submitted by Robert Curtis, with 4,052 signatures—1,534 were Wales only. So, could I bring in Luke.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I can see that the petition was successful, so could we congratulate the petitioner and close the petition? But just before we close that petition, just ask for a date from the Government on when they see it coming into force, and when they expect it to come into force. And then once we've received that date, we pass it on to the petitioner and then close it.

Okay, thank you. Yes, I agree. Everybody in agreement? Okay. Did you capture that? We'll write to the Minister to double-check that they approve the ban, get a date, inform the petitioner and then close the petition. Thank you.

So, we now have three petitions relating to women's health, and we're just going to go through those at the same time. So, 3.2, which is petition P-06-1220, 'Increase funding available for Women’s Health Services, Education and Awareness'. That was submitted by Larissa Richardson, with 242 signatures—193 in Wales only. Could I invite Vaughan to discuss this petition?

Yes. Do you want me to do this and the endometriosis one at the same time, Chair, or—?

Yes, please, if you don't mind. Thank you. I'll read out the endometriosis one. It's endometriosis healthcare in Wales. It's petition P-06-1242, submitted by Beth Hales, with 5,895—5,004 in Wales only. Yes, please, if you could do the two together. Thank you very much.

Thank you. The reason I say that is we've agreed to take these broadly as a basket of issues, but, in particular, the response from the Government has moved on since the publication of the women's health plan. There was a debate—well, a statement with questions in Plenary in December 2024. So, there is now a plan for women's health. This has taken some time. I should again note I was a health Minister when we started doing work. This has been taken forward by Eluned Morgan as the health Minister after me, and has now come to the publication and launch of the women's health plan.

Endometriosis is one of those conditions that helped to start some of this work—a more common condition than many members of the public appreciate. It's painful and, in a previous debate, Senedd Members described their own experience of having endometriosis as well. So, it is one of the areas where I think a greater focus is needed, and a women's health plan should help to do that. There's been lots of work done by a range of people, including Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales. So, I think we are in a better position now. It is now actually about implementation of the women's health plan and improvement in the way services are organised, the way information is provided, and access to those services across the country.

There's a specific point around a question for answer in the debate about data collection. I think that's something where we can write to the relevant Minister, the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, and ask for a response, which we can publish, and then close the petition. In the part of the question that also refers to tertiary centres, the Cabinet Secretary for health will need to be engaged in that, because he will make the funding choices around this. So, it may be we write to the Cabinet Secretary and the Minister for Mental Health and Well-being, but then once we get that response, I think we can close the petition. It will then be a matter of implementation, following the plan that's been set out by the Government.

Okay, thank you. Anybody else like to come in? No. Okay, did you capture that? 

The first one—

The first one regarding women's health, which is about increasing the funding available for women's health services, education and awareness. It was agreed that we would write to the—.

On that one, to thank the petitioner—

Oh yes, thank the petitioner and—

I think thank the petitioner, but this matter has already been dealt with in the plan that has been launched since the petition was started, and there's a specific point around endometriosis care, and there's a general point about funding, where the Cabinet Secretary has to be engaged, as well as the rather more specific point around data collection. I think once we get those that will be a helpful enough position for us to close. And of course on funding, we are going through budget scrutiny at present, so increased amounts that are possibly available or are available if the Senedd agrees to pass a budget.

Okay, so write to those two. Okay, thank you, Vaughan. So, moving on to 3.4, which is P-06-1444, 'Women of North Wales have the right to a Menopause Services/Clinic in Ysbyty Gwynedd'. That was submitted by Delyth, with 1,347 signatures. Can I bring Rhys in on this one?

Thank you very much, Cadeirydd. This is the second time we've considered this petition. The petitioner is grateful for the response from the health board, but she doesn't think it particularly answered her concerns. The concerns were mainly that the service can be provided at Ysbyty Gwynedd, and that the service can be provided through the medium of Welsh. She has also raised issues about the women's health plan and the need for it to be available in an easy read version. So, I think, because the petitioner doesn't think that her issues have been addressed, that we should write back to the health board with those specific issues with regard to the service in Ysbyty Gwynedd, the service in Welsh, and ask for a commitment that the health plan will be available in an easy read version. Diolch.

And north Wales is a very big region. If you have to travel to Deeside for an appointment, it could be a three-hour visit, couldn’t it, from Anglesey, depending where you are.

I think this is specifically on what those services will be, how specialist will they be, what services will be available in a community or a more local setting. So, the way that our plan sets out where a centre may be doesn't mean that's the only place where any service will be available. It would be helpful to explain what will be available in every community through what means, and what would be in a specialist centre. Because any specialist centre is going to be less accessible if people don't live near it. And that's the same if you go to a tertiary centre in Cardiff, for example, or there's tertiary work in Swansea, and indeed some in north Wales as well.

Also, I think, the point around an easy-to-read version around the women's health plan, that's a question for the Government about publishing a women's health plan. And the Government may have a view on wanting to clarify for all health boards, not just this one, about people's either language preference or language requirement. Because there's a difference between a preference and a requirement, and there are times when use of the language is a requirement to get the right treatment provided. So, it may be helpful to clarify the questioning around those points, both for the health board and the Government, to get the right response that would then allow us to potentially close the petition with a satisfactory answer.

So, we need to know what, exactly, is being provided at what level locally—

What's a community service and what's a specialist service, yes.

—and what is provided in the specialist centre, then. But we did discuss last time the importance of raising awareness that help is available for women, and I hope that the women's healthcare plan can do that. So, we're okay with that. Thank you.

Moving on to 3.5, it's petition P-06-1258, 'Make individuals in Wales with Hidden disabilities eligible for the Blue Badge' and that was submitted by Non Williams with 86 signatures. So, I'm going to bring Luke in on this. 

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I can see that the Government has commissioned some research on this and is due to report in February of this year. So, given that we have waited this long, we should keep the petition open, waiting for that research to be published.

Okay, thank you. Everybody in agreement? There is another petition relating to blue badges that is on hold as well, which we'll discuss under item 4. Okay, so we'll do that; we'll wait for the response. 

Item 3.6, petition P-06-1387, 'Provide humanitarian aid to Gaza'. As I said, it's an employee of mine that has submitted this. Could I invite Vaughan to discuss the petition? 

Yes, this is the—. We considered the petition for the third time in November and we wrote to the First Minister. We've now had a response and the response, I think, is helpful and constructive, with an appetite for Wales and the Welsh Government to be involved as constructively as possible. The really good news since we last considered this is that there has been a deal done for a ceasefire. In particular, we've already seen the release of some of the hostages in accordance with the deal done, and prisoners being released as well.

I think regardless of what party we're in here, the hope is that we now see an extended period without armed conflict with all the harm that does, because otherwise it'll be impossible to see a rebuilding of the physical infrastructure as well as the people and the futures that they will want for themselves, and we would want for any of our own families as well. And I think it's really positive that the Welsh Government is available to be part of that, but that will require a group of stakeholders, groups of people of trust as well. If we think about how the ceasefire has come into being, it's people who have been mediators who are located in the region.

I think there is something about how we can be helpful around seeking to impose ourselves in a part of the world that we do not live in, but we all can recognise community links on all sides of opinion on this in pretty much every constituency and region in Wales. So, I think we can thank the petitioner for their interest, for the petition, note the really constructive response from the Government, but the even more constructive fact that there is now a ceasefire deal in place. 

Yes, I think we're all relieved and welcome that. Thank you, Vaughan. We did ask questions in the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister as well. Okay, thank you, so we'll close the petition then. 

Moving on to item 3.7, petition P-06-1425, 'We ask the Welsh Government to reverse its decision to stop T2 buses calling at Garndolbenmaen', by Steven Churchman. It has 282 signatures. Could I invite Rhys?

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I was actually on the T2 at Christmas time. Unfortunately, it didn't go to Garndolbenmaen, which would have been nice because my great-grandfather was born there. But this is the second time we've considered this. Albeit perhaps on first glance a small amount of people have signed the petition—421—if you think that the population of Garn is about 350, it is a sizable number. So, there are obviously strong feelings locally about the need for the T2 to go via Garndolbenmaen and Steven Churchman, the local councillor, says it will only add a few additional minutes to the journey if Garndolbenmaen is reincluded. 

Now, there is an online consultation meeting in February, and there the petitioner will be asking for Garn to be reconnected. Perhaps, Cadeirydd, if we could wait for the outcome of that consultation before closing the petition. Diolch yn fawr.

Okay, thank you, Rhys. Everybody in agreement? Okay, thank you. So, we'll do that and go forward. 

Item 3.8 is petition P-06-1439, 'Improve vital late night public transport infrastructure in South and South West Wales'. That was submitted by Lisa Mart, with 8,226 signatures. Could I invite Luke to discuss this petition?

Diolch, Cadeirydd. As I said last time, I'm sympathetic to this particular petition, especially considering, back in the day, when I used to work in hospitality and how impossible it was to get a bus late into the night after you'd finished your shift, let alone if you'd been on a night out. I'll say, to be fair, the Cabinet Secretary has recognised some of those challenges and I know he is looking at what more can be done in this particular area. I know that we've raised this as well with the particular local authority that the petitioner has come from. So, on that basis, I'm struggling to see what exactly we can do now as a Petitions Committee, further to that. So, I would say that we thank the petitioner and that we close the petition, and it's now down to individual Members in the Chamber to continue to raise the issue about that important link between transport and the night-time economy.

It's been raised at the cross-party group on public transport as well, and by union representatives. Okay. Do we all agree with that? So, we're going to close the petition and then we will all speak out on the issue. And we've got the Bill coming forward, haven't we, as well—the bus Bill.

Moving on, item 3.9, which is P-06-1454, 'Calling Welsh Government to provide urgent mental health support for New Dads'. It was submitted by Mark Williams, with 295 signatures. So, could I invite Vaughan to comment on this?

Yes. The Minister for mental health has confirmed that work is under way on a pathway to support new dads and partners, under the care of the specialist perinatal mental health team. The petitioner is actually a member of the perinatal steering group. He said he was doubtful progress could be made, but grateful for the way that Welsh Ministers work, and thrilled with the new pathways for fathers and partners. So, that does seem like a success story.

I don't think there's much more we can do through the petition, but, again, I think there'll be an interesting point about how people find the implementation of it as well. There are many stressful points in a person's life, and moving house, getting married, becoming a parent are right up there with many others. They can also be points of real joy as well—that is one of the parts of life, isn't it? We want to support people to be successful parents—mothers and fathers. So, the fact that there is a new pathway for support in place is good news. I hope the petitioner recognises the impact they've had and will continue to have, I hope, as part of the steering group.

Yes. Thank you. So, I'd just like to congratulate the petitioner and close the petition. Okay. Thank you.

Item 3.10 is petition P-06-1452, 'Meat-free Monday in every school in Wales'. That was submitted by Manon Bellin Thompson, with 271 signatures. Who will take this? Rhys. Thank you.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. I should mention at the outset that I've known the petitioner's father for over 20 years, and Luke will know him also; he's been one of the stalwarts of this place since the beginning of devolution. But it's great that this is an example of a petition by a schoolgirl. It's great to have a teenager showing interest in the Petitions Committee and using the Petitions Committee to raise very important points. And things are moving forward. There's a public consultation that's being developed for this spring, and there'll be revised regulations hopefully laid before the Senedd in January 2026. So, local authorities, their websites already show which ones provide meat-free days. For example, Cardiff already is meat-free on a Monday. So, can we congratulate this young petitioner, thank her for using this committee, and urge her to look out for the consultation, and hopefully she'll respond to it, and thank her? Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd.

Thank you, Rhys. Okay? I think we're in agreement. So, we're going to thank the petitioner and highlight the consultation that's happening in the spring, and then close the petition. Thank you.

The following two petitions will be taken together: items 3.11 and 3.12. Item 3.11 is P-06-1474, 'Stop Natural Resources Wales closing Bwlch Nant yr Arian, Coed y Brenin & Ynyslas visitor centres' and item 3.12 is P-05-1447, 'Stop Natural Resources Wales closing the visitor centre at Ynyslas National Nature Reserve'. The first one had 13,245 signatures, and the second one, referring specifically to Ynyslas, 2,422 signatures. Rhys, would you like to take us through this?

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. This is the fourth time we've discussed the visitor centres here in the Petitions Committee, and its fair to say it's been raised on a number of occasions in Plenary. There are obviously strong views, and these visitor centres are obviously well used by people outside of Wales. Over 5,000 of the signatures are people outside Wales, so people obviously enjoy using these visitor centres.

There will be new arrangements from 1 April, some interim arrangements to begin with, with the hope there'll be some longer term commercial partnerships at the visitor centres. I know the petitioners have their concerns. There will be a debate by Mabon ap Gwynfor about Natural Resources Wales on Wednesday; I'm sure the visitor centres will be raised by a number of participants then. Perhaps, Cadeirydd—sorry to give you some more work—you will mention in your contribution that we've had this petition. Perhaps we could write to NRW, asking what will happen now to the key roles that the centre staff did play in the visitor centre by keeping the place tidy et cetera, and maybe to see exactly what's going to happen, what's the plan from 1 April onwards. Those are my recommendations, Gadeirydd.

Thank you. Does anybody else want to come in on this?

I think we've spent loads of time on this petition. We've had a debate in the Senedd, there'll be another one this week, there's scrutiny of NRW coming up in March as well. I think it's entirely reasonable if we want to write to NRW one more time, but to share that letter with the relevant subject committee, and close the petition then, because otherwise we'll never close the petition, because I don't see how the people running the petition will ever agree with the NRW choice. And we're not here to be a letterbox for if they're unhappy in two months' time; there has got to be something about the ongoing ability to make choices and for petitions to get closed. The Senedd has spent lots of time in this committee and on the floor of the Senedd debating and discussing this.

I don't have a problem with writing to NRW, as Rhys suggests, to ask them about how those tasks will be managed, but I do think we then need to close the petition, and we can forward the response we get to the relevant subject committee ahead of the scrutiny of the NRW leadership. There may well be questions that that subject committee will want to ask the NRW leadership, but then, we're not really going to know what happens until many months after April, once people are then using the centres under the new arrangements. Unless there is a large sum of money to be provieded to NRW specifically for this, then the operational plan they have in place is there, and we can't change that by simply shouting at them.

I think there is concern that NRW won't be in the committee for scrutiny until March, and the visitor centres may close in March, and then there will be a period when they will not be open. The petitioners felt that the petition was the only route where they were able to be listened to as well, so they value that we have been raising this here and writing to NRW about their concerns, and raising it also in other committees and other forums. I'm of the belief that, sometimes, the communication is not the same—what they're hearing, what other people are hearing, what we're being told. But I can raise all this in the debate tomorrow. I hope that their views are being considered and that there will be a smooth pathway to somebody else taking over the visitor centres so that they're not mothballed. They're also concerned about an outside company taking on collecting the fees from parking, because they need that to actually run the centre. So, I'll raise that as well tomorrow. So, how do you feel about—? I'll speak in the debate on Wednesday—it's not tomorrow—and then we'll close the petition. 

Fine.

We'll close the petition, then. I'm also on the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee, so I can raise concerns there as well. 

And I'm sure you'll enjoy having NRW in front of you.

I think it's important that the petition goes to a relevant committee that can take it forward in a constructive way. In terms of this committee, we have reached the end of that. But it doesn't mean to say that the climate change committee or other committees can't take this up as well. I think it's important to just emphasise that with the petitioner. So, this isn't us saying that we're not wanting to do anything with this any more, but there is another route, perhaps, where the relevant subject committee might be able to go a bit further than we're able to.

Yes. That's a very good point.

There's also something here about the fact that when you have to make choices, you can't keep everyone happy sometimes, but you still have to be able to make a choice. And you know that in your own life, in your house: sometimes, you make choices because you have to do things. It's the same for a Government, the same for an organisation, the public or the private sector. There are lots of opportunities that this Senedd has provided to discuss the petition, and there'll be more this week, there'll be more in scrutiny, and we've had a full debate in the Chamber on this issue, but we can't keep on recycling the same issue until the petitioners get what they want—that's not the purpose of the committee. But I'm sure it will get raised this week and in the future, and I'm sure it will get raised again after 1 April. If NRW think the issue is simply going to go away, that would not be to take any account of recent history.

Thank you, Vaughan. So, if we could write to the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee and voice the petitioners' concerns ready for March, when there's scrutiny of NRW. Are we in agreement? Thank you. 

Item 3.13 is petition P-06-1464, 'Allow Welsh families who have experienced Baby loss before 24 weeks to obtain baby loss certificate'. This was submitted by Angharad Cousins, with 749 signatures. Could I invite Luke to discuss this petition?

Diolch, Gadeirydd. It looks like there's potentially some good news on this front: the UK Government and the Welsh Government are discussing a way forward on this particular issue. So, I would be minded to keep it open until we have a further update on that. So, could we keep it open until we receive an update on where those discussions go and what route the UK Government is looking to take?

I agree. It's been highlighted in the Senedd quite a lot; we've got this petition, but it seems like it's still taking time. So, it would be good to get a date, and then close the petition. Can we agree to do that? Could we write once more to the Minister and get that date? Thank you. That's the end of petitions. 

Agenda item 4 is papers to note. We've got two papers to note, which we can discuss later, if you're happy to note those. 

Item 5 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Are you happy to move into private? Thank you. We're happy to move into private.