National Assembly for Wales

As a reminder, the meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Please can Members ensure that all mobile devices are switched to silent? Another reminder, the Senedd operates through the medium of both English and Welsh, and interpretation is available during today's meeting.

The first item is the legislative consent memorandum on the Renters' Rights Bill—evidence from the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government. So, can I welcome Jayne Bryant MS, the Cabinet Secretary for Housing and Local Government? Do you want to introduce your officials, or do they want to introduce themselves?

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and perhaps they can introduce themselves.

Good afternoon, committee. Sarah Rhodes, deputy director of homes and people.

Gareth Baglow, senior housing policy adviser—not adviser, officer, sorry.

Diolch. If we move straight to questions, then, I will start. The Bill reflects many of the provisions in the Renters (Reform) Bill, which was introduced to the House of Commons in 2023 by the previous UK Government. That was an England-only Bill until amendments were introduced at the Commons' Committee Stage. The LCM states UK Government officials approached your officials to ask if they were happy to largely duplicate the provision relating to discrimination within the Renters (Reform) Bill into a new Renters' Rights Bill. What role do you as Cabinet Secretary play in the decision making, and did you receive a formal ministerial invitation to participate?

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and thank you for the opportunity to come before this committee. It's my first time before this committee today. An approach was initially made to officials from UK Government officials, and officials gained confirmation that the previous Cabinet Secretary was happy to include the provisions in the new Renters' Rights Bill. I agreed that they should continue that work when I was appointed. An official approach from the UK Government came when the Minister for housing and planning wrote to me to seek legislative consent on the day that the Bill was laid. 

Diolch. Natasha Asghar.

Thank you so much, Chair. Welcome, Cabinet Secretary. I just wanted to ask you—. The LCM states that using a UK Bill would allow you to deliver a discrete policy aim within, and I quote,

'an extremely shorter timeframe than would otherwise be possible if we were to seek to achieve the same aim via legislation in the Senedd.'

This is the same wording as used in the LCM for the Renters (Reform) Bill in 2023. So, please, for my benefit and the committee's, can you explain how you've come to that view, given that the LCM for the Renters (Reform) Bill was laid over a year ago?

Diolch, Natasha. Practically, we cannot deliver within the time frame of this Bill without making sacrifices elsewhere. Alternatively, we really do look to deliver this discrete aim in Wales, but it moves further down the line. I don't want to make tenants who are being discriminated against wait for a legislative time slot, which may be, potentially, years down the line, nor do I want to jeopardise the important piece of legislation that we're looking to deliver in our term of Government. You'll be aware of the tight time frames for what we would like to do in the rest of this Senedd term.

Okay. I'd like to ask a little bit about Royal Assent, if that's okay. So, if you'd introduced a Welsh Government Bill into the Senedd in November 2023, rather than opting to ask for provision for Wales in the Renters (Reform) Bill, do you think the Welsh Bill would have been close to Royal Assent by now?

Obviously, that assumes an available slot would be within the legislative timetable of the UK Government. Bringing any additional legislation would inevitably have an impact on other areas of delivery. That includes existing legislative time to deliver other legislative programme ambitions.

Okay. The LCM suggests that the Renters' Rights Bill will receive Royal Assent by next spring. Is that still the case?

We understand that to be the case. Obviously, that's subject to parliamentary timescales. 

Okay.

Thank you very much. Alun Davies.

Thank you very much, Minister. It's nice to welcome you to the committee.

I really don't like this, I have to say. We've heard a succession of housing Ministers in this Senedd come here to read exactly what you're telling us this afternoon on previous LCMs, and what we haven't seen is a Welsh Government seeking to take legislation through the Senedd on these matters. I was part of a legislation committee back in 2015, I think, on the Renting Homes (Wales) Bill, and that's only just being delivered now, in the last year or so. And it feels like the housing function, in legislative terms, isn't really working.

Well, I'm here—

I don't mean just you and your tenure, but historically.

Yes, I appreciate that. I think that, obviously, I would disagree with what you say. I'm here in the first instance to describe this. You've had a longer history than I have on the committee and, obviously, a longer history here in the Senedd. I think that it is important that it does work for us, and I think that we see this as an opportunity to make sure that the provisions within this Bill are used to the best endeavours for Welsh people, and this is the vehicle that exists for us to do that as quickly as possible.

I don't disagree with that objective; it's the means that I have the issue with, because I've heard that said by so many Ministers, and that's the issue. On every single occasion, I could agree with the Minister individually—every single time, because I agree with what was said by previous incumbents. But, collectively, we've got a mess on the statute book, which is getting messier as a consequence of legislating in this way. We are developing a body of Welsh law around housing and, whenever a UK Bill appears, we insert housing legislation into that as well. So, we have legislation now that is being passed by Westminster and by this place on the same subject area, and it just feels to me that we are confusing the statute book, and this isn't a good way to legislate.

I hear what you're saying, and I know that this is something that you discussed with my predecessor in front of this committee at the time. I know you're going to have an opportunity to discuss this further and wider next week, I believe, when you're having the Minister for Delivery before you, and the Deputy First Minister as well, and I think there will be ways to explore that angle in terms of what they see as the wider constitutional issues. But, for me, in terms of being in control of this policy area, I do feel that this is the best outcome for people in Wales. I'm here today, there are opportunities for scrutiny, that's really important, and we wouldn't be doing this if we didn't think that this was the best avenue at this time for what we would like to do for the people of Wales.

I recognise that, Minister, but we're not scrutinising the legislation, are we? We're scrutinising the LCM, and that's different. And what we should be doing is scrutinising the legislation. Has there been any conversation that you've been a part of in the Government about alternative means to expedite legislation? For example, one of your predecessors came to this committee and said something very similar to what you've said today, about, 'We need to get this on the statute book. We don't want people in Wales to be let down', and then, left to the vagaries of the UK Parliament, of course, Bills don't necessarily reach Royal Assent. And on at least one occasion I can think of, it would have been quicker to do an expedited piece of legislation here. It just doesn't feel that the Welsh Government is thinking this through at the moment.

Well, you've raised this in the past, but whether or not this Bill is suitable for an expedited process, I think, now is a moot point, really. I think it's really important that we deliver on the remaining aspects of the programme for government here in Wales.

But this wasn't in the programme for government.

Well, no, for what we want to do in the rest of our programme for government. We've got legislation coming in—important legislation—within the next 18 months. I keep saying 18 months, but it's probably less than that now. I think we're reducing that quickly. But we have a really tight timescale, and I think, with this, for me, there is an avenue for scrutiny, there has been an avenue for scrutiny, and I think it's really important that we're mindful of that.

Well, this isn't scrutiny of legislation, we've got to be very clear about that. It's not scrutiny, and it's not a substitute for scrutiny of legislation either. It's scrutiny of a particular motion that will be placed in front of the Senedd. But, I'll conclude with this: you didn't answer my original question, Minister, which was have there been any conversations within the Government that you've been a part of where Ministers have discussed alternative means—an expedited Senedd Bill—to bring forward this legislation.

On the specific Bill, I don't think, in my time, that that has happened, because this has been ready to go, and I think, as I said in my first answer to Natasha Asghar, since I came in the opportunity was to keep going in that particular way. But I'm sure you'll have more chance next week to discuss this with the Minister for Delivery and the Deputy First Minister in terms of that process and how these things are brought about.

I'm sure the Deputy First Minister's thoughts will have developed since he chaired this committee. [Laughter.]

Yes, absolutely. I'm sure he'll enjoy his time in front of the committee in a different guise.

Do you mean 'changed dramatically'? [Laughter.]

Thank you very much.

Adam Price.

Yes, so , in terms of the—

I think it's really important that this Bill comes through, because we know we want to see its policy aims and ambitions achieved, and it will have a real impact, and this is why we're keen to see it come forward.

No, and I appreciate where you're coming from, and I appreciate your views on this, and I know that, as I said, the committee has these long-standing views on this particular process. As I say, I think that, in terms of what we all want to see, which is scrutiny of legislation that comes before this place, we all feel very passionately that we have the Senedd here in Wales, that we want to make sure that we're doing the best for the people of Wales, and that means that we are having that opportunity to scrutinise legislation, and, when it's being proposed, that we are able to have Welsh voices in terms of consultation, and I realise that, in this process, there hasn't been that level of consultation.

I just don't think this Bill does anything like ride roughshod over what we want to do here in Wales. It doesn't change our commitment to that or change our commitment to improving the accessibility of Welsh law. I think we need to be clear about that. As I said, we've got a lot of work to do, but—

No, I don't think it does, but I do think that, perhaps, on this wider process, and I'm sorry to repeat myself in the fact that I do know that, next week, you have the Counsel General here who will be able to perhaps discuss further the wider issues around the constitutional and legislative programme, which I think would be helpful to the committee.

In terms of what we could—. In terms of bringing the Bill—a new or Welsh—best in our legislation. 

Well, as I said, as I explained at the outset, the timescale of how this happened was that, obviously, my predecessor started the process, and after the new UK Government was elected, then I had that role to carry on along this process. There's been no change at all between now and the previous Renters' Rights Bill that was brought, and I think, as I've said, bringing new Senedd legislation forward would have just had an impact on the Government's priorities for the legislative programme, and that has not changed, so—

Again, I note the committee's long-standing views on this as well, because it's not specific to this Bill that you've talked about it. But, coming into post, obviously, with that short space of time and with a new First Minister, we've got those priorities of the new First Minister to deliver in that short space of time. So, I would say that, at this point, there's obviously a time constraint from focusing on what the First Minister's priorities are for the rest of this Government term and that does have that impact in terms of time. Again, I said, policy wise, this has just been a vehicle that we're able to use to do something that we really wanted to do anyway, and I think it's important to recognise that—

Can I come in for a second, Adam? Are you saying that housing is not one of the First Minister's priorities?

No, it is definitely one of the First Minister's priorities, and, obviously, we've got some legislation coming forward next year, so we'll be bringing that forward. But I can absolutely tell you that housing is a priority of the First Minister's, but there's a limit to how much of that—. And my Cabinet colleagues will all have different views, I'm sure, around what their priorities are, but the First Minister is quite clear on that.

Can I just make one last comment? It is not aimed at you and it's not aimed at the current First Minister, but if the previous First Minister had brought more legislation in in the early years, we wouldn't be in a rush at the end.

But this wasn't planned legislation.

Pardon?

This wasn't planned. You've already told us that you hadn't planned this, you hadn't done any policy work on this; it's just leaping on the Westminster bandwagon.

This is something that we wanted to achieve. We've done some wider work on that. In the discussions that have been had with my predecessor, it was quite clear that this was something we would want to achieve in those discussions, and obviously this means that we're able to do something that we want to see happen here in Wales. We don’t want people in Wales to be at a disadvantage from what is being proposed in England, and this is an opportunity for us to do that and to do the other things in our legislative programme that we really need to get done.

Again, I hear what you're saying. Genuinely, in terms of this Bill, I think this is an opportunity for us. We've got wider legislation. We've legislated in this area in terms of housing and I think it is important. Obviously, it's crucial that we do that where we need to do that. And we've got our own real ambitions. This piece of legislation at a UK level fits in very nicely, very much with what we want to see here in Wales, and I think that's something that we've got to be clear on. The wider points that you've made, I do take those, and I think, again, that'll be something that you could raise directly in your deliberations next week. I don't know if Sarah wanted to just come in on this point particularly.

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Just quickly, I think it's worth just reiterating that what's outlined in the LCM in terms of this consent motion is about, you know, the Bill will amend the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016, so it will specifically amend a distinct piece of Welsh legislation. Yes, it's using a UK Government vehicle to amend Welsh legislation, but we've been engaging with UK Government officials to ensure that it reflects Ministers' policy priorities as well.

Perhaps it would just be useful to outline some of the—

I’m aware of this process, coming new to this. The UK Government drafting lawyers do liaise with Welsh Government drafting lawyers, so that any of the drafting can be reviewed. I don’t know if there’s something specific you would like to say, or anybody would like to say, about the officials’ use on the drafting.

My understanding was that wasn't needed this time, but I don't know if you—. Obviously, I've come into this at the end of the process, rather than at the start.

The way it’s worked is we’ve worked with policy officials to form the policy that we want to see and how it would work for Wales. The UK Government drafting lawyers have put together drafts based on those policy instructions and have sent them to us, and we’ve had our lawyers to look over them to make sure that they work for Wales. That’s basically the way that it works. Yes, when we’ve picked up things that don’t quite work, we’ve gone back to them and told them that, and in a lot of cases we’ve had things amended.

Again, I think there might be an opportunity to discuss that wider next week, but in terms of where we are, there will be statutory instruments, obviously, that we will have, and the Senedd more widely will have, a view on. So, there are those opportunities, but you’re asking more about an early stage, which I do understand, and I think that would be something perhaps to explore next week in particular.

I'm sure you've got an awful lot to explore next week.

Yes. It sounds like you might need a longer scrutiny session.

I'm sure we will. Okay?

Alun Davies.

The Counsel General will find the transcript very interesting, I’m sure. I sat on these Bill committees and it’s very frustrating to see the legislation that we’ve passed here being amended by Westminster without the Government seeking an amendment here. I say that as a Labour Member who pursued a manifesto commitment, and this isn’t the way we should be legislating, Minister, I’m very clear on that.

I think we are finding ourselves in the situation whereby I do question whether the housing department in Welsh Government has the resources and has the functionality to deliver legislation, because this isn’t the first time this has happened, and I do have some quite serious questions to ask about that. And that’s not to the Counsel General, that’s to yourself as a Cabinet Secretary, about the resources you have available to you and the way in which those resources are being deployed. Because, at the moment, I’m not convinced that it is working well, but we won't pursue that this afternoon.

Where we are today, I think, is in a very unhappy situation, whereby you are providing us with a fait accompli in many ways and telling us that we need to speak to somebody else if we have some concerns about the way the system works. That’s not really how Governments should be legislating and how parliamentary committees should be hearing from Government, to put it gently. We should be having a conversation here about the sort of statute book that we are creating in this place, and the accessibility, as Adam has already said, of that statute book.

One of the conversations we've had with senior judges in this committee has been the inaccessibility of Welsh law, and that is a consequence of actions taken by the Welsh Government and Ministers. Each individual action, each individual Minister, I think, is very well-meaning, and I don't have a criticism to make, but collectively, we are creating a problem, and we are creating a new problem now, I think—it might not be new, but it is to me—whereby we're using this place to make law and Westminster to amend that law. I don't want that precedent set, I'll be quite frank with you. That's not a precedent I want set, because it sets a very poor precedent for us, I think, as a legislature. Would you be prepared, Minister, to look again at some of these matters, and to look again at how you could bring forward—this isn't a large Bill we're talking about here, in terms of the pieces of law that you want to put on the statute book—a different way of delivering this law, before dissolution in 15 months' time?

Thank you. Diolch, Alun. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to come here and say, 'You need to speak to somebody else about the policy area.' There are wider questions here that I'm happy to give my views on, but I think it would sit better in the discussions that you'll have next time. So, I just want to be clear that that's where I am.

You've raised some of the issues around the pressures on the housing department. We do have two big Bills coming before us. They are really challenging Bills, and they'll be coming next year. We have the building safety Bill and we have the homelessness Bill. They are not insubstantial in what we want to achieve. And I think, within this, we have to be clear about where we are within the legislative timetable. We have to look at the First Minister's priorities and the Government's priorities. This is an important part of what we would like to deliver, and that is why we see this as an opportunity. Please don't think that I would think, 'Why can't we just take the easy option?', because I don't see it in that way. I just think we need to achieve what we would like to achieve, and there's an opportunity. It's important that we do not disadvantage Welsh people within the timetable that we would be able to deliver on.

So, just to be clear, I don't think that we haven't got a substantial amount of work to do, and we've got challenges within our department in that sense. I see this as something that we would like to deliver; this is an opportunity. There aren't really any differences—it's not something that will be different to people in England that's different to people in Wales and Scotland. This piece of legislation that we're looking to go on the back of is actually something that would be beneficial and the same situation for the whole of the UK, rather than just England, for example.

I accept that, and I don't make personal criticisms of you, Minister, but I think it's where we are and where we find ourselves, which I think is quite an unhappy place. Moving forward, we are now going to have a statute book that contains Welsh housing law in a number of different places, a number of different pieces of legislation. That's going to create confusion and issues of access to justice. It's a social justice issue in many ways, because people will not know how to find their rights, because they'll be in different places, and that is not a place where a Labour Government would want to find itself, I would suggest. So, how would you intend to sort out the statute book?

I think my predecessor also mentioned at this committee the potential in the future of consolidation Bills—that's potentially something for the future. I think it's really important, as you say, that people know where their rights are, and know that they're in an accessible part. I don't know if, Sarah, you wanted to add anything.

You'll be aware of the Welsh Government's commitment to improving accessibility of Welsh law, and we've got a commitment, a formal programme of work, to try and achieve that. But as the Cabinet Secretary said, it's not a small task in terms of trying to do that.

It's not, and you're making it more difficult for yourselves, which is why I find it so surprising that you're doing this. I think it was housing law—I'll be corrected—where a senior judge said there were senior lawyers who weren't always sure where the law stood. I think it was housing law where that was said, because of the actions of nobody else except the Welsh Government. I think that's a real issue for you to consider in terms of the way in which you're taking these matters forward. But I'll leave it at that unless you want to come back.

Just to come back on that point in terms of that accessibility and that wider consolidation work, just to be clear again, on this particular LCM, this is amending a piece of Welsh legislation, so it will be within the Welsh statute book, so the law will be accessible in terms of it will be within the renting homes Act.

I understand that, but the way you're going about it means that if anybody wants to understand what might be meant by that, and seeks to listen to what a Minister said in introducing it—and you know that happens in interpretation of law—they could look at Minister Bryant a number of times, but they wouldn't find it, because it would be a different Minister elsewhere explaining what the purpose of this legislation is. So it does matter how you actually deliver law as well as what the law actually is. I think Welsh Government is going down a path that I find very uncomfortable, and that I think is creating more difficulties for people in Wales than perhaps the Welsh Government is always aware of. But I'll leave it at that.

Thank you. Natasha. 

Thank you so much, Chair. I want to talk a little bit about rental discrimination. Clause 46, from our understanding, enables Welsh Ministers through regulations to add groups of people protected from rental discrimination. How does the Welsh Government envisage using this power, and are there any specific groups that you're likely to be adding to this category?

Diolch, Natasha. With reference to clause 46, this is a power that allows Welsh Ministers to make regulations to extend the provisions around discriminatory rental practice in respect of dwellings to other cohorts of people, in the way Part 1, chapter 4 protects benefit recipients and those with children, should the need arise. Before making that regulation, Welsh Ministers must be satisfied that discriminatory rental practice exists, and that that cohort, because of that practice, is significantly less likely to obtain, be granted renewal or continue with an occupation contract than other people. That's a bit technical, but clause 46 requires the regulations to be made under the affirmative procedure and places that requirement on Welsh Ministers to consult before making those regulations. So, making regulations is contingent on prior consultation with relevant stakeholders. At this time I can't speculate how and when that would be used, but it's a power that could be used should discriminatory practices exist in the rental sector, and obviously it would allow Welsh Ministers to do that. So the power would facilitate future extensions to additional cohorts if needed, as you've suggested in your question.

Great. Thank you. In relation to clause 47, we understand here in the committee that the Welsh Government's position is that consent is not required for the Secretary of State's regulation-making powers, because they would only be exercised when Welsh Ministers do not have legislative competence. Can you please give us an example of when this power would be needed in a reserved area? Because the subject matter appears only to apply to housing law, which ultimately we all know is devolved.

An example of this might be if a provision were to relate to, for example, the financial services reservation. This power allows the Secretary of State to make regulations extending rental discrimination provisions to additional groups in Wales where provision would fall outside the legislative competence of the Senedd, should that be necessary in the future.

A final little question from me: what consultation requirements would apply to regulations made by the Secretary of State?

The Secretary of State would be required to consult with a wide range of people in the rental sector in Wales, including landlords, mortgagees, insurers, and tenants, obviously, as well.

Thank you very much, Chair. 

Thank you. Adam Price.

Diolch, Adam. That's a really important point. I know that there's been limited involvement of Welsh representatives on this, but I am confident the clauses work for Wales. As I said earlier, there's nothing dissimilar between Wales, Scotland and England in terms of the issues. We know those discriminatory practices happen. As I said, I don't think there's a distinct Welsh element to this. Many charities and stakeholders work across Wales and England, for example, or the UK. I know that those organisations that have given evidence in those scrutiny sessions include Crisis, the National Residential Landlords Association and Generation Rent, and they're already represented as well here in Wales. So I don't believe that there's any concern that scrutiny has been missed out on in Wales.

No, there are no differences.

The only real difference is in enforcement. It's basically civil penalties in England and criminal penalties in Scotland and Wales.

We don't have civil penalties here in Wales in terms of housing. That was the way the UK Government went, I think, from the 2016 Act. Housing law has been a criminal law since the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 and the Renting Homes (Fees etc.) (Wales) Act 2019, so everything has followed that.

As I said, my officials have briefed all stakeholders on the proposed changes, including all the representatives, from landlords, agents, tenants, as well as local authorities, and we understand that all, generally, are supportive of the clauses. While we haven't consulted on the changes, I'd just stress that the changes and the concerns being addressed by the Bill are not new. This is something that we know has been happening for a long time, not just in Wales, but across the UK in terms of discrimination. As I said, some stakeholders are already involved in England and Wales—like I said, Crisis, for example, who I know have given evidence, and they work on that basis. But there's nothing that would've stopped any Welsh organisation from taking part in that as well, or responding.

We've almost run out of time; we certainly haven't run out of questions. We will write to you with the other questions, if you're willing to reply to them.

Absolutely.

Can I thank you and your officials for coming along here and talking to us today? I think you've made next week more interesting.

I feel like I've built it up, so I don't know—. You'll definitely get full attendance at committee next week, by the sounds of it. But diolch yn fawr and thank you for the opportunity to come before you today.

And you know about the transcript. I don't need to go through all that with you, do I?

No. Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much.

Thank you. We'll have a five-minute break.

This takes us on to item 3, the Legislation (Procedure, Publication and Repeals) (Wales) Bill—evidence session with the King's Printer. I'd like to welcome the witnesses, and if you'd like to introduce yourselves for the record.

I'm Saul Nassé. I'm chief executive of the National Archives and King's Printer.

I'm Malcolm Todd. I'm the head of policy at the National Archives.

My name's John Sheridan. I'm the digital director at the National Archives.

Thank you. Mr Nassé, do you want to make a short introductory introduction?

Yes, very happy to. King's Printer is one of my responsibilities as chief executive at the National Archives; it's the one from which we derive our ability to publish legislation. It's a really important part of what we do, keeping an up-to-date record of legislation that's available to the public, both primary and secondary legislation. We've had a big focus in the last few years on working with the Welsh Government on ensuring that that is done effectively for Acts of the Senedd and secondary legislation in Wales, both in Welsh and in English.

We very much welcome this Bill. It both captures and consolidates what is our current practice but also gives an ability to move forward and modernise in the future. It puts clear lines of responsibility on me, as King's Printer, accountability for publishing Acts of the Senedd, setting up a discrete series of Welsh statutory instruments, and a duty on us—and this is the first time that it's been listed as a duty anywhere in the UK—to keep legislation up to date as well, and to be digital by default. So, in a sense, this Bill puts Wales at the forefront of establishing good practice around legislation, which is one of the reasons why we welcome it.

Okay. Thank you very much. My first question has gone, but I can move on to my second. You did talk about the existing practice; to what extent do the Bill's proposals reflect existing practice?

They very much do. The legislation that we work with generally across the UK is rooted in the world of print, when legislation was type on paper. Users today very much want digital, and we have a very popular website, and 120,000 people use it a week, legislation.co.uk, and that is the entire statute book across the UK. We publish legislation pretty much in real time. So, within 24 hours, new legislation goes up there. We have a big programme to ensure that, when any new piece of legislation or statutory instrument lands, its impact on the existing statute book is acknowledged and that we revise. So, that is very much what we do now. The new Bill puts digital at the forefront of what we're doing, which is great, because that is what users want and what we deliver. It also gives us the flexibility as those behaviours move on to publish less in print in the future, which is probably the way that things will go.

Thank you very much. Natasha Asghar.

Thank you so much, Chair. Can you please outline for the benefit of the committee any practical implications that there will be for the National Archives as a result of the Bill's proposals?

The key bit of practical work that we need to do is this one around establishing a separate series of SIs for Wales. We know that that's what users want, because it makes it clear that it is a separate series. That will require a certain amount of recoding in the background to drive the website. Lots of what we do here has elements of automation to it, so we'll need to create that. We don't anticipate it being an issue for us, and the plan is for us to be on track to deliver that on 1 January 2026.

Okay. Great. A new section, 37V, requires the King’s Printer for Wales, and I quote, 'so far as practicable', to publish Welsh legislation as it has been amended from the time an amendment comes into force. To outline whether the National Archives is content this obligation can be met—is that somewhere that you actually stand at the moment, or have you got any concerns?

Why don't you talk to that one, John?

So, we're really confident that we've got the capacity to meet that obligation. We know from our research with users that it's the single-biggest user need. People really need to read the text of the legislation as it has been amended. We've had capacity to both bring primary and then secondary legislation increasingly up to date. We have more than enough capacity to keep up to date, and sufficient capacity to bring the remaining legislation that isn't currently up to date that applies to Wales up to date ahead of that provision coming into force. So, we're very confident. I wouldn't underestimate the importance of that provision, ultimately, for the people of Wales, in terms of giving them a legal assurance that the form of the legislation that we know that they most need is going to be available to them.

Okay. Great. I'd like to ask you a bit about money. It's a topic that I know gets everyone quite excited. Are there going to be any financial implications for the King's Printer as a result of the Bill's proposals?

The work that I was talking about in that earlier question will require funding. I know there are some figures that have been out there; they've come to being because we have a supplier that we work with who has put a rough idea on it. So, there will be. But this is a service that we invest in year-on-year, and we would expect to fund that as part of that annual budget for enhancing the entirety of the service. So, there'll be a cost, but it's one that will fall on us and we'll absorb as part of business as usual, if you like.

Okay. So, there is a figure that the committee's been made aware of, and that's £45,000, for the National Archives. Is that accurate, and is that a cost that you're hoping to bear as part of the National Archives, or is that something that the Welsh Government will have to bear?

It's something that we would bear. That's an estimate that I think came from our supplier. We work with the supplier, TSO Ltd, on delivering that. We'll subject that to our normal budgeting processes, so it's definitely won't be something that comes back to the Welsh Government.

Thank you.

In terms of the practice of how the legislation will be published, it's essentially the same—the legislation as it's born, in both English and Welsh, will be published live onto the website, as in within 24 hours of it being made. That's the same process that we work to across the UK. The way it's configured is somewhat different. So, there's a King's Printer for Scotland that's established as part of the Scotland Act 1998, which is a separate office. The way this Bill works is that the responsibilities that I will have as King's Printer for publishing Welsh legislation will be badged as the King's Printer for Wales, but there won't be a separate office set up in the same way. But the practicalities of how it lands for the user are the same; the law in both languages will land on the website and be available for users.

If I may, it might be worth, just to complete that answer—. There is already a statutory default for secondary legislation in Scotland that is digital—just for completeness. Thank you.

I mean, we can't speak to the policy, as we're not responsible for the legislation. We can speak to the practicality, and the practicality is that this will make no difference, so legislation will be registered and numbered, Welsh statutory instruments in their own series, published with the imprint by the King's Printer for Wales, and so there's no practical difference in terms of what is happening and what the public sees under this Bill for Wales as to the practical arrangements for Scotland. The legal arrangements are different, because this Bill has a different construction, but the practical arrangements are equivalent.

So, in terms of the practical arrangements, no. The Scottish statutory instruments are received through the same system and managed by the same team at the National Archives as UK statutory instruments are now, and, under the new arrangements, Welsh statutory instruments in their own series will be received—so, the same group of people doing the work and the same systems and processes behind the scenes to manage the publication so that we can demonstrate the authenticity of the legislation as published. So, no practical difference.

We've been working very closely with the Welsh Government on the proposition for many years now, so we've been publishing in both languages for a long time, so the relationship has been a close one for many years. And then, during the course of the development of the Bill, we've been in touch. That's why we're in a position where we welcome it and we're very pleased that the Bill is rooted in what is the current practice and makes it very clear that the current practice is a sense of responsibilities that we need to live up to. Malcolm, you've done a lot of the conversations, haven't you?

So, there have been two types of liaisons. There's been, I'd say, an extension of our normal cordial and productive working relationship between—sorry, I must get this right, because in the different jurisdictions it's different—the First Legislative Counsel's office in Cardiff and our legislation services department and then, more recently, I've had discussions with policy officials in the Welsh Government, as they were preparing to bring this Bill forward to the Senedd. Obviously, it wasn't all in one go until the Bill was published, but we didn't get any surprises, if that helps the committee understand the level of liaison there's been, and we were confident, as I think they wanted us to be, that we could deliver what was going to be required under this.

So, revising legislation is a complicated business. It's easiest where you have clear principal Acts for Wales that are being amended for Wales, and everything is neat and tidy. Unfortunately, the statute book can also be quite entwined, and the most difficult situation for us is where you have an Act that is amended in different ways for different parts of the UK, and we're having to tell the story of those different amendments in a way that makes sense to users. So, to give two scenarios, one might be where a provision in a UK public general Act has been amended by the Westminster Parliament, but commenced for England by the UK Government on one date and for Wales by the Welsh Government on a different date. So, you've got a single Act, a single amendment, but different commencement dates—one for England and one for Wales—so, therefore, different points on the timeline.

Another situation would be where the same text has been modified materially, not just at different points in time but different words, in one direction, say, for England and another direction for Wales. We try and keep the amendments together when we can, but sometimes the differences in the texts can be so great that we'll produce—we call them concurrent versions, so—a version of the text for England and a version of the text for Wales. So, working all of this out, when to keep amendments together because it helps users for getting a sense of what the law is and they can read the annotations to work out which amendments are applicable for Wales or for elsewhere, and when to produce different versions of the texts, and, specifically, to produce Wales-specific versions of the text, that causes a lot of complexity. The complexity is greatest with UK PGAs; things are much simpler where Wales has consolidated the legislation and you have clean law for Wales that's being managed and maintained for Wales, and then it's just a question of updating the legislation with the amendments, but you don’t have the complexity that you have when you've got more widely applicable law that's being modified at different times in different ways for different parts of the UK.

Exactly that, and we know that many people who are using legislation.gov.uk are, typically, professionals accessing the text of legislation in a work context, but they're not legally trained or qualified, and the elements about how the statute book works that people find most difficult are the concepts of legal jurisdiction extent, territorial application, commencement and changes over time. And these are ideas that really trip users up, mainly because they don't have a good mental model for how the statute book is maintained by the Parliaments and Governments of the UK. So, finding ways in which we can make that clear, either visually through things like the timeline that we have on legislation.gov.uk or specifically through annotations that provide the authority for how we have amended the text but also make the position as clear as we can make it for users in terms of the technicalities of what the text is, where the text is, when the text is and why the text is the way in which we are presenting it, that's one of the main areas of focus. We think there's more we can do. But we also know this is the biggest challenge for people using the service, because these are difficult concepts for users to have, and the mental model, for many people, is not brilliant. 

I think 'spider's web' describes it very well. The good thing that we're able to do by having all of the legislation for all of the UK in one website and with a team of editorial legal experts running the service is we can bring some level of clarity to users so they can see it in its entirety and start to learn and pilot their way through things. If you imagine this level of complexity in the print era, it would be almost impossible for people to work their way through the web, but here we can present the spider's web and help people navigate their way through it. 

Alun Davies. 

I was quite enjoying the conversation, actually.

We all were.

It's a fascinating area, because this committee has taken an interest in accessibility of law. You know, we spend a lot of time making law and then we seem to spend quite a lot of time trying to make it as inaccessible as possible to people, so the work that you do is really important in breaking through all of that. So, to what extent, then, do you seek to, in—? Because you've got two roles, haven't you? You've got to maintain the body of law as enacted, and that is absolutely crucial, that's the substance, and then it needs to be interpreted and it needs to be accessible and people need to have access to it. So, how do you bridge those two roles? 

We're quite careful about the type of interpretation that we do. So, we present the explanatory material that is given to us alongside the text of the legislation, and we, crucially, do this hard work of making sense of the tangle, so that people have access to current texts. The context of use, though, for many users is, if they're trying to understand the law in a particular area they've, generally, read some more general guidance or got some information from elsewhere and their use case for coming to legislation.gov.uk is, specifically, they now want to read the actual text for themselves, for whatever reason. It's blazingly fast from a Google search, if you know the piece of legislation that you want to read. And, not by accident, you will find yourself very quickly either to the table of contents or the particular provision and you'll generally find yourself reading the current text; you'll be reading the legislation text that you will be expecting. That's where the interpretation for us stops. So, what we don't do is explain to people how to go about statutory interpretation. We don't do the work of the Government in terms of explaining, in addition, what the law is about, what the purpose is; we're really trying to do the best job that we can in presenting the text in the way that we know people need and expect. 

Yes, and that's my experience of using the website, quite honestly, chasing after Government of Wales Acts of various descriptions, as you can imagine, to work out if my prejudice is actually in law or just in my mind. So, I'm interested then—. This is quite an important part of how we interact with the people of the country. It was good to hear that you have had solid engagement with the Welsh Government over the development of the legislation. Is there anything that you would like to see in the legislation that isn't in the Bill, as it is currently formatted? 

No. As we said earlier, we welcome the Bill. I think that it is both clear about establishing the lines of responsibility, and not so prescriptive that we can't continue to evolve in the future. That's where I think that I would pick up on what you were saying about consultation. We want to continue a deep level of engagement with users about how they want the service to continue to develop.

One of the things that we want to look at there is how we evolve the presentation of English and Welsh language. We have had this kind of dual-column format, which very much derives from the print era, where you need to see the two things alongside each other. We think that users now would much prefer to be able to toggle between one and the other, but we won't make that decision without engaging with users and getting the insights that let us be sure that that's right.

Yes, and I think that the Counsel General made that point to us when she was in front of the committee. From my perspective, having both versions is sometimes useful and sometimes less so. I don't know; it depends on how we are looking at these things. 

So, in terms of taking this forward, can I go back to one of the points that Adam was making? One of the concerns that this committee has is that the statute book becomes—I think that you used the word 'entwined', which is a very diplomatic way of putting it, possibly. 'Confused' is a term that I would use as well, because we have had evidence in the past from senior lawyers that, sometimes—we'll use the example of housing law, since we were discussing that in the session before—law is passed by Westminster and law is passed by this place, and sometimes this place asks Westminster to pass law on its behalf. So, you have amendments made in Westminster of law passed here, and amendments in Westminster reflecting law that should be passed here. So, 'entwined' is one way of putting it, in a sense. It's a very positive way of putting it. Surely, that must make the law less accessible for the average user, and your job more difficult. 

Our job is to give people the clearest picture of that web. We're not the ones weaving it. We take our responsibility as being the kind of journal of record of the law as it exists seriously. In a sense, that's there both for users of law as consumers and for law makers. It's there in one place, and I think that, by having it digitally accessible, it gives everyone the tools to both interpret and decide whether there's a different way of doing it in the future. 

Okay. Well, we'll leave it at that.

Diolch yn fawr, Alun. Can I thank you for coming along and answering our questions this afternoon, and making that initial presentation? I found it very helpful. I'm sure that my colleagues have as well. I have to tell you that the transcript will be sent to you. I would urge you to read it, because I know that at least one of you is like me, and tends to turn away whilst saying something. And when you do that, sometimes, the odd word gets missed. I have to correct it a number of times, where it has got gaps, because I have just turned like that. If I look at the transcript of today's meeting, it will show a gap there, where I turned to look at my colleagues. So, I would urge you to check it. But, again, thank you very much for coming along. It has been very useful and very helpful, and we are very grateful to you for coming. 

Thank you.

Can I welcome Members back to the meeting? We now move on to item 4, instruments that raise issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Orders 21.2 or 21.3. The Partnership Arrangements (Miscellaneous Amendments etc.) (Wales) Regulations 2024: these regulations make changes to the various regulations under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, in relation to the provision of integrated care and support services, particularly regional partnership boards. Senedd lawyers have identified one technical reporting point. A Welsh Government response has not yet been received. Firstly, we have Kate from our legal team. Would you like to go through the reporting point?

The technical reporting point is just asking Welsh Government to explain why they've used an outdated name for one of the NHS trusts. We have received Welsh Government's response in the last 45 minutes, so we'll bring it back to you next week to consider.

Great. Do any Members want to raise anything? No.

On to item 5, instruments that have raised issues to be reported to the Senedd under Standing Orders 21.2 or 21.3—previously considered. The Applications for Scheduled Monument Consent (Wales) Regulations 2024: the committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 30 September. The Welsh Government then responded to our report, and we considered that response on 21 October. Following this, we wrote to the Welsh Government seeking clarity on a number of issues. The Cabinet Secretary for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership has responded to the points in our letter, agreeing that it is not appropriate to rely upon legal databases such as Lexis to correct errors. In relation to our comments on clearly identifying the location of new text, he states that they will bear this in mind in their future approaches to amendments. Kate, do you have anything to raise?

We've got no further comments. 

Do any Members have any comments? Are we happy to note the correspondence? Yes.

Item 5.2, regulations to implement Part 4 and Schedule 3 to the Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 dealing with the creation of a mandatory licensing scheme for practitioners, premises and vehicles associated with the performance of special procedures. We've had a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care on 14 November, and a letter to the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care.

Following the committee’s consideration of the suite of regulations creating the mandatory licensing scheme for practitioners, premises and vehicles associated with the performance of special procedures, the committee wrote to the Cabinet Secretary expressing concerns with the time it has taken to bring forward subordinate legislation. The Cabinet Secretary has responded to our concerns. Particularly, he states that officials have undertaken considerable engagement with partners about the scheme’s requirements during the formulation period, which commenced after the pandemic in 2022. The committee has also written to the First Minister on this issue, which is acknowledged by the Cabinet Secretary. Kate, do you have anything to add?

No, nothing on this one.

Members, do you have any comments?

I remain unconvinced by the Government's arguments over the time issues. 

I will just make one comment: at what stage did the pandemic cease to be an excuse for anything that hasn't happened?

Item 5.3, the Special Procedure Licences (Wales) Regulations 2024. This item relates to the items we just considered at 5.2. The committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 4 November and laid its report on the same day. These regulations replaced an earlier version that was considered by the committee but subsequently withdrawn because of errors identified in our report. Members are invited to note the Welsh Government response to the report. Kate, do you have anything to add?

If I could just draw your attention to the response to the second merits point: the Welsh Government accepts that it could have been helpful to provide a response to the committee's report on the initial draft of these regulations, rather than simply withdrawing and re-laying the instrument. The Welsh Government also confirms that they are going to amend the explanatory memorandum so that it refers to the withdrawal and correction of the draft. In relation to the other reporting points, the Welsh Government has provided the requested information.

Have Members got anything to add? No.

Item 5.4, the Land Transaction Tax (Relief for Special Tax Sites) (Wales) Regulations 2024. There's a letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language on 15 November 2024. The Committee considered this instrument at its meeting on 4 November and laid its report the same day. We asked the Welsh Government to confirm whether the Competition and Markets Authority raised any concerns in relation to the new land transaction tax relief. The Cabinet Secretary has confirmed that the CMA did not raise any specific concerns in relation to the new relief. Kate, do you have anything to add on the letter?

No, no comments.

Members? No. 

Item 6, notification of correspondence under the inter-institutional relations agreement. Correspondence from the First Minister on inter-governmental meetings: we have a letter from the First Minister regarding the inter-governmental meeting that took place on 11 October, including the Council of the Nations and Regions, the Prime Minister and heads of devolved Governments meeting, and a bilateral meeting with the Prime Minister. The First Minister’s letter covers the topics of the discussions and links to a communiqué published following the meetings. Do Members have anything they wish to raise? No.

Item 6.2, correspondence from the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on the Greenhouse Gas Emissions Trading Scheme (Amendment) (No.2) Order 2024. This letter from the Deputy First Minister is in relation to an Order that will come into force in December, if agreed by all four UK legislatures. The Senedd is scheduled to debate the draft Order in Plenary tomorrow. We considered this item in our last meeting. Are Members content to note? Yes.

And we move on to papers to note. Item 7.1, correspondence with the Welsh Government, the Welsh Government's legislative consent memorandum on the passage of the Passenger Railway Services (Public Ownership) Bill. The Welsh Government has responded to our report on their LCM on this Bill. Members will know that the Senedd agreed to a legislative consent motion for the Bill on 5 November. The response was informally circulated to Members ahead of the consent debate, and this afternoon is an opportunity to formally note the Welsh Government's response. Members will recall that we made one recommendation, accepted in principle by the Welsh Government, in relation to future primary legislation on railways, and aligning the Senedd's legislative competence with the existing executive competence of the Welsh Ministers. Do Members have any comments to make? No.

Item 7.2, a written Statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language and the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Planning on legislating to support tourism in Wales. The written statement is an update in relation to the visitor accommodation (register and levy) etc. (Wales) Bill, which will be introduced later this month, and a second Bill that will regulate visitor accommodation via a statutory licensing scheme. Once introduced, committee will scrutinise the visitor accommodation (register and levy) etc. (Wales) Bill in our usual way. Do Members have anything to add? No.

Then we'll move on to the next item, a written statement and correspondence with the Welsh Government on the Water (Special Measures) Bill. There's a letter to the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on 13 November, and a written statement by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs on 12 November. The written statement by the Deputy First Minister relates to bathing water reforms, and references the Water (Special Measures) Bill, for which we are currently considering two LCMs. We considered a previous written statement from the Deputy First Minister at our meeting on 4 November, relating to his review of the water sector, and, following that, the committee agreed to write to him about the Welsh Government's approach to these issues. That letter is included in papers for information. Are Members content to note this? Yes.

Correspondence with the Office for the Internal Market, a letter from the Office for the Internal Market, 13 November 2024, and a letter to the Office for the Internal Market, 24 October 2024. The Office for the Internal Market has responded to our letter of 24 October, in which we asked further questions following the evidence session on 30 September. Members may wish to return to this correspondence in private. Are Members content to do this? Yes.

Item 7.5, reports by the Bevan Foundation, 'Experiences of Justice: seeking legal help for immigration and asylum in Wales'. We’ve received two reports from the Bevan Foundation, which form part of a series considering the lived experiences at the heart of the immigration legal services crisis and explores the impacts of declining legal provision. Are Members content to note these reports? Yes.

Item 7.6, correspondence from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language on the Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill. A letter from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language on 15 November 2024 and a letter to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language on 24 October 2024. Please see the supplementary pack. The Cabinet Secretary has responded to questions we sent following the evidence session with him on this Bill on 21 October. The response will help inform the report on the Bill, which we will consider in due course. Are Members content to note this? Yes.

In accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi), I invite the committee to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Do Members agree?