National Assembly for Wales

Bore da. Good morning. Welcome to the Health and Social Care Committee this morning. I move to item 1. We have apologies from John Griffiths this morning and Carolyn Thomas is substituting this morning for John. So, welcome, Carolyn, to this morning's meeting. Are there any declarations of interest this morning? Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Lovely. Are there any other declarations of interest this morning? No.

In that case, I move to item 2, and there are some papers to note, which are also in the public pack today. There is correspondence between the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee and the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care regarding regulations to implement Part 4 of and Schedule 3 to the Public Health Wales (Wales) Act 2017, and correspondence from advocacy providers in Wales to the Minister for Children and Social Care, regarding the funding crisis in advocacy provision. Are all Members content to note those papers? Yes, thank you. Diolch yn fawr.

In that case, we move to item 3, and under item 3 the committee is undertaking Stage 2 proceedings for the Health and Social Care (Wales) Bill this morning, and into this afternoon. The marshalled list shows the amendments tabled at Stage 2 in the order in which they will be disposed of today, and this reflects the order of consideration that was agreed by the committee on 13 November. The groupings list shows how amendments have been grouped for the purpose of debate today. And for the record, in accordance with the convention agreed by the Business Committee, I as Chair will move amendments tabled in the name of the Minister, and I will also assume that the Minister wants me to move all her amendments, and I will do so at the appropriate point, but Minister, if you don't want that to be the case, please obviously indicate. And as Chair, I will also move amendments in the name of Altaf Hussain. Again, if Altaf does not want me to move those amendments, please indicate at the appropriate time.

So, I would like to welcome this morning to the meeting Dawn Bowden MS, the Minister for Children and Social Care. Perhaps if I could ask officials to introduce themselves for the public record.

I'm John Spence, the Bill manager for the health and social care Bill.

Bore da. I'm Anthony Jordan, and I am the senior responsible owner for the Bill.

I'm Mike Lubienski. I'm a senior lawyer in the Welsh Government legal services.

Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn. I'd also like to welcome Altaf Hussain to the meeting this morning. Altaf has tabled a number of amendments, so I'll call him to speak to his amendments at the appropriate time as well.

The first group of amendments relates to social care and makes minor drafting and consequential changes. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 9 in the name of the Minister. 

I move amendment 9 and I call on the Minister to speak to her lead amendment and other amendments in this group.   

Diolch, Cadeirydd. As you say, the amendments in this group are minor drafting and consequential amendments, including several that give effect to the recommendations that were made by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. I would ask Members to support them. 

If I turn first to amendment 9, this amendment is made to section 2 of the Bill, and would remove new section 2A(2) of the 2016 Act. The new section 2A(2) sets out a definition of a care home service that is provided 'wholly or mainly for children' for the purposes of subsection 2A(1)(a).

During its scrutiny, and in its Stage 1 report, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee raised concerns that the definition o 'wholly or mainly for children' in the new section 2A(2) was not sufficiently clear. This amendment responds to those concerns and will no longer seek to define what is meant by the term 'wholly or mainly for children'. This approach will be consistent with other existing instances where 'wholly or mainly' is used in the 2016 Act, and in the 2014 Act, and should make it more straightforward for providers and the regulator to determine whether care home services are wholly or mainly for children. It also aligns with the approach applied successfully by the regulator in England.

Amendment 1 is a minor change to the definition of 'looked-after children' in subparagraph (3B) of Schedule 1 to the 2016 Act. The new definition aligns with section 74(1) of the 2014 Act, specifying that 'looked after children' means those who are looked after by local authorities as described in section 74(1).

Amendment 10 is to section 3(3) of the Bill to refine the drafting around the definition of 'a company having a share capital'. This relates to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee’s recommendation 16. It introduces amended wording to provide that a company does not have a share capital if it does not have power under its constitution to issue shares. 

Amendment 4 is another change to mirror the clarified meaning of 'looked after children' in amendment 1 to section 4(3) of the Bill, whilst amendment 5 is a minor amendment to section 4(3) of the Bill, which inserts a new Schedule 1A into the 2016 Act. The amendment simply ensures that paragraph 4(8) of Schedule 1A correctly refers to 'this paragraph' rather than 'this section'.

Amendment 6 is made to section 6(3) of the Bill and refines the wording in relation to the 'fit and proper person' test as it relates to objects or purposes, and responds to a point made by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee during the summer term.

The purpose of amendment 7 is to correct an incorrect cross-reference in section 10(3)(c) of the Bill, and also makes a clearer distinction regarding how the duty at section 75 of the 2014 Act applies to fostering and care homes.

Amendment 26 is intended to ensure the wording in section 19, subsection (1), is consistent with the policy intention set out in subsection (2) of the same section of the Bill. This amendment, again, is made in response to a recommendation from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee’s Stage 1 report—recommendation 22—which the Welsh Government accepted.

The purpose of amendment 32 is to require the draft affirmative procedure to be applied to the power to make regulations prescribing a 'public good' for the purposes of the objects and purposes test in new section 6A(3) of the 2016 Act rather than the negative procedure. This is another amendment that we are making in response to a recommendation from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee—recommendation 14.

So, although I do not consider that it is necessary or proportionate to apply a superaffirmative procedure to the regulations specifying an additional acceptable public good, as was recommended, I am happy to concede that the affirmative procedure will provide the appropriate type of scrutiny in this case.

The purpose of amendment 8 is clarificatory. It is intended to align with existing and historical practice, and put beyond doubt that local authority care homes are not exempted from the need to register with Care Inspectorate Wales, even where the local authority has parental responsibility for the children in the home.

Amendments 33 and 34 make changes to paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 to the Bill and are consequential upon the changes to the numbering of the direct payment provisions in Part 4 of the 2014 Act, as amended by section 20 of the Bill.

Amendment 35 is to section 21(8) of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015 to include the correct statutory references of the powers of local authorities to make direct payments in lieu of the provision of services. The amendment will ensure that the local authorities continue to come within the exemption afforded by subsection (8) when exercising functions in relation to the making of direct payments. The amendment is consequential upon the renumbering of the direct payment provisions in the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 by section 20 of the Bill. thank you, Chair. That's all I have to say on that.

Diolch, Minister. Thank you. Is there any other Member who wants to speak in this debate? No. In that case, Minister, is there anything you would like to add?

Nothing I would like to add, just to urge Members to vote for the amendments. Thank you.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 9 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There is no objection. So, in accordance with Standing Orders, amendment 9 is agreed. 

I move amendment 1 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 1 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 1 is agreed. 

The second group of amendments relates to advocacy and assistance. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 44. I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to speak and to move the amendment and other amendments in this group. 

Diolch, Mabon. Does any other Member wish to speak in this debate? Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. Amendments 77 and 94 are in response to this committee's recommendations to include provision for an active offer of advocacy for children and young people affected by the Bill. This has been drafted as a free-standing provision, as our legal advice suggested changes made in Chapter 1 of Part 1 are reflected in two pieces of existing legislation, and it would not be effective to include an advocacy offer to straddle them both. The final details of the advocacy offer are to be set out in regulations. This approach mirrors that taken in section 178 of the social services and well-being Act. Diolch.

Thank you. Is there any other Member who wishes to speak? No. Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Firstly, can I thank both Mabon ap Gwynfor and Altaf Hussain for their support for what we've been seeking to do on the provisions in the Bill? Unfortunately, I can't support Mabon ap Gwynfor’s amendment 56, which would make a service provider’s ability to be registered to provide a restricted service that is a care home conditional upon them making arrangements for a new concept entitled a ‘registered independent visiting advocacy service’ to be made available to each child for whom it provides care home services.

I do, of course, agree that these children should have access to advocacy. Children living in these registered care home services are looked-after children, they already have a standing offer, imposed as a statutory duty on local authorities, of independent professional advocacy that is funded by the Welsh Government and available to them, and that is set out in the social services and well-being Act in section 98, which requires a local authority looking after a child to 

'appoint an independent person to be the child's visitor if—

'(a) the child falls within a category specified in regulations, or

'(b) in any other case, it appears to the authority that it would be in the child's interests to do so.'

I do believe that the capacity of advocacy services to meet current demand is probably being conflated with the idea that there is no statutory requirement to make advocacy available to these children, as that is simply not correct.

To duplicate these statutory duties would be confusing to those seeking to understand the law, not least because it raises doubt about the intention, efficacy and application of existing provisions. It's also unclear how the proposed register of advocacy providers and requirements to be imposed upon them by regulations align with the existing regulatory requirements on advocacy providers as a regulated service under the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act.

For the same reasons, I cannot support linked amendments 44, 59, 60 and 61. In addition, section 3, which is amended by amendment 44, also captures fostering services and secure accommodation services, whereas amendment 56 only imposes a requirement on providers of care home services for children, not secure accommodation services or fostering services.  

Amendment 77 would place a duty on local authorities to provide advice and assistance to children and young people affected by the changes set out in sections 2 to 14 of the Bill. This assistance must include representation and must be publicised and monitored. So, whilst again I support the sentiment behind this amendment, that children affected by the changes we're making should be well supported, the amendment substantially duplicates existing provisions in section 178 of the 2014 Act. This section outlines a local authority's duty to provide advocacy services to specified persons, including children who are looked after, ensuring that these children have help to express their views, understand their rights and participate fully in decisions about their care and well-being.

As with the previous group of amendments, I'm concerned that, if agreed, this amendment would be confusing to those seeking to understand the law, not least because it raises doubt about the intention, efficacy and application of the existing provisions.

As part of our planned communications aimed at different parts of the sector, the Welsh Government has produced a draft document for children and young people explaining the key elements of the Bill and what it means for them. We're currently reviewing this with the eliminating profit programme board members and expect to publish this in the coming months. We'll continue to work with those organisations that represent children and young people to ensure that their voices can be heard and ongoing communication needs considered. Amendment 94 is a consequential to amendment 77, and, as I'm not supporting the principal amendment, then, unfortunately, I can't support the amendment either. Diolch, Chair.

Thank you, Minister. I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate.

Mabon, do you move amendment 44?

Yes. The question is that amendment 44 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, there is an objection. Therefore, we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 44 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are no abstentions. In that case, there were three in favour and three against, and, as there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 44 is agreed—not agreed. There we are. We'll get in the flow in a minute. [Laughter.] Amendment 44 is not agreed.

The third group of amendments relates to existing service providers and a 'reasonable profit entity'. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 62 in the name of Altaf Hussain.

And I move amendment 62, and I call Altaf Hussain to speak to the lead amendment, and other amendments in this group. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Chair. Amendments 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67 and 98 seek to address what we consider to be the main problem with the legislation as drafted. The Minister has on a number of occasions stated that her policy intention is to tackle excessive profits, and that profit in and of itself is not a bad thing. However, the Bill as drafted will prevent profit-making entities from operating in this space, even if they are not profitable. This describes the majority of the sector operating in Wales; while they technically can make a profit, they don't always, and what drives these businesses is the desire to provide excellent care to children and young people. With this group of amendments, I have sought to add a definition of 'reasonable profit', to better align the Bill with the stated policy intent of tackling profiteering off children and young people's care.

Another problem with the Bill as currently drafted is that it does not allow for co-operatives or employee-owned entities to provide care services for children and young people. Allowing for reasonable profit, provided it is not used to pay shareholders, except for wages, is, I would argue, a more reasonable approach.

Minister, I accept that, as a draft, the amendments in this group could be said to create uncertain law, as we have not set out how the average rate for the sector is to be determined. I also accept that there's a danger of straying into territory regulated by the Companies Act 2006, and, therefore, outside our competence. However, I believe we need to work on a mechanism to tackle profiteering whilst allowing so-called profit-making entities such as microbusinesses, co-operatives, social enterprises and employee-owned businesses to carry on providing excellent care to children and young people. We have to stop the hedge funds and venture capitalists, not former social workers who wish to provide caring places for vulnerable children. With this in mind, I would like to work with you and your officials to explore suitable amendments at Stage 3. Thank you very much.

Are there any other Members that wish to speak? Sam Rowlands.

Thanks, Chairman, and I thank Altaf Hussain for introducing group 3 to committee today. Just to put on record the position of my party as outlined in committee sessions that we've had previous to this here today, to be very clear, the principle of this legislation we do not support, mainly because of the issues outlined here in group 3, as Altaf Hussain has done so. So, our support for amendments throughout this is recognising that this legislation is likely to continue, and we are seeking to create amendments that strengthen that legislation, as we see it.

In particular on the points that Altaf Hussain outlined, I want to support his comments in terms of the types of organisations that are going to be significantly affected by this legislation. It seems to me that the legislation is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The vast majority of children are provided excellent care through private companies here in Wales. My concern is that the legislation will create an instability for those children, and, when we've met with children who are in care, one of the two most important things to them is stability; the other is to be loved. I believe that this legislation will create an unnecessary instability for those children at a time when they need it least.

I believe that care provided to children should be sector agnostic; it's the outcomes for them that are most important. I certainly agree with Altaf Hussain's comments around that there are issues in relation to excessive profiteering that need to be addressed. This legislation does not do that in a reasonable way, it seems to be affecting far too many organisations that are providing excellent care, many of whom are, perhaps, husband-and-wife organisations who are former social workers who want to provide this care for those young people. I believe this legislation will create instability that is absolutely not needed for those children at this time, so I want to support Altaf Hussain's amendments.

Diolch, Sam. Minister—sorry, Joyce Watson. I beg your pardon.

I thank you for putting in your amendments, which I won't be supporting. In my view, it undermines the whole principle of the Bill. Whilst you've added the term 'reasonable profit', that isn't clearly defined, whereas 'not for profit' is clearly understood, and what could be reasonable for one person might not be reasonable profit for another person. In my view, it still allows room for children to be treated as commodities, and I'm sure that wasn't your intention, but, nonetheless, I have to say that I cannot support it for the reasons that I've just outlined.

Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Unfortunately, I cannot support Altaf Hussain's amendment 62, which opens the 'types' condition to a wider definition to accommodate models that are 'any reasonable profit entity', as is set out in amendment 63. The concept of reasonable profit, as Joyce Watson has just said, would conflict with the fundamental objective of the proposals, which seek to ultimately remove any level of profit from children's care. I cannot therefore identify how 'any reasonable profit entity' could be considered reasonable in the context of the objectives of the legislation. If we look at the definition of 'reasonable profit' as set out in amendment 66, it's potentially problematic for several reasons. Firstly, it defines 'reasonable profit' as

'a rate of return on own capital that takes account of the risk, including that to revenue, or the absence of such risk, incurred by the service provider and is in line with the average rate for the provision of restricted children’s services.'

This would appear to propose accounting for the level of risk when defining the amount of reasonable profit that a person could obtain. Introducing this risk-reward motivation is fundamentally in conflict with condition 1, 6A(3)(a), which requires a person's objectives or purposes to primarily relate to the welfare of children when seeking to provide a restricted children's service.

Turning to amendment 65, this seeks to add a regulation-making power to 6A(4), enabling Ministers to add

'such other undertaking as the Welsh Ministers may prescribe in regulations',

in addition to the four not-for-profit models already listed in section 6A(4)(a) to (d). I don't consider that giving the Government a wide-ranging power to prescribe other types of undertakings beyond the very clear, defined not-for-profit models on the face of the Bill to be proportionate. This also poses a risk of the policy intentions of the Bill being undermined in the future through the use of subordinate legislation. I'm also very conscious of the feedback that we have had from stakeholders through the consultation process, which favoured having very clear definitions of not-for-profit models, and amendment 65 would leave this open to future additions and add uncertainty.

Amendment 64 relates to 65 as it concerns a requirement to consult on such regulations. While, of course, I agree with the principle of consulting on regulations, I cannot agree with this amendment as I do not agree with the uncertainty caused by the related regulation-making power that this amendment is associated with.

Going back to amendments 66 and 67, these seek to define the 'reasonable profit entity', as set out in amendment 63, with amendment 66 defining a 'reasonable profit entity' and amendment 67 defining 'reasonable profit'. I cannot support these amendments given that they relate to the definition of 'reasonable profit'. As I just outlined earlier, this conflicts with the fundamental objective of the proposals, which seek to remove any level of profit.

Finally, I cannot support amendment 98 within this group, which seeks to apply the draft affirmative procedure as it relates to amendment 65 to prescribe other types of undertakings in addition to the current four models. As I'm not able to support amendment 65, I also cannot support this amendment. Diolch, Chair.

Thank you, Minister. Altaf Hussain, do you wish to say anything to close this debate?

No, thank you very much, except that I thought that the Minister might come up with saying that she withdraws amendments and I would have then been happy to work with her and her officials to take it further to Stage 3.

Thank you, Altaf. The question is that amendment 62 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we'll proceed to a vote. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are no abstentions. Therefore, there are two in favour and four against, so, therefore, amendment 62 is not agreed.

I move amendment 63, in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 63 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we'll move to a vote. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. The result is two in favour and four against. Therefore, amendment 63 is not agreed.

I move amendment 65 in the name of Altaf Hussain. If amendment 65 is not agreed, amendments 64 and 68 will fall. I beg your pardon, if amendment 65 is not agreed, amendments 64 and 98 will fall. The question is that amendment 65 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we'll move to a vote. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. Therefore, there are two in favour and four against. Therefore, amendment 65 is not agreed.  

I move amendment 66 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is amendment 66 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we'll move to a vote. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Two. Those against, please raise your hands. Therefore, there are two in favour and four against. So, amendment 66 is not agreed.  

I move amendment 67 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 67 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we'll move to a vote. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. Therefore, there are two in favour and four against. Amendment 67 is, therefore, not agreed.  

The question is that amendment 10 be agreed. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, amendment 10 is agreed.  

Mabon ap Gwynfor, can I just check, are you moving amendment 56?  

If amendment 56 is not agreed, then amendment 61 will fall. The question is that amendment 56 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we'll move to a vote. The question is that amendment 56 be agreed. Those in favour. Those against. So, there are three in favour and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 56 is not agreed. 

The fourth group of amendments relates to the transitional period and timescales for transition. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 68. I move amendment 68 and I call Altaf Hussain to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Chair. This set of amendments was set to extend the transition period by at least three years. Given the Minister's indication that the transition timescales are to be extended to 2030, I am happy to withdraw all the amendments in this group. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you. Does any other Member wish to speak? Mabon ap Gwynfor. 

Thank you. I call the Minister.  

Diolch. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Mabon, for that. Yes, I understand the concerns around that. The reason for the statement was primarily because we had had, through feedback from stakeholders, and particularly local authorities, the concern about sufficiency planning if we had a number of providers leaving the market in 2027, which would have been the effect of the current timescale. At the moment, we are working very closely with local authorities, and a number of local authorities are well advanced with their sufficiency planning. But the main rationale for my statement was to ensure that there would be sufficiency in the market in the event of private providers seeking to leave, which would give a little bit of extra time for those replacements to be made.

What I am absolutely clear about giving an undertaking to the committee to do is to ensure that we have very close monitoring of the progress that's being made on this. 2030 is not a target date. It is the absolute end date. A number of local authorities are very well advanced in their sufficiency planning, and I expect them to be in a position to move wholly for not-for-profit well in advance of 2030. But this is to ensure that both they and for-profit providers that want to transition have an appropriate period of time in which they can do so. I think that this move will actually improve the prospects for children in those settings rather than reduce them, because that was the main motivation behind my decision—to ensure that we continued with sufficiency in the system up to 2030.

Thank you, Minister. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you.

Do you wish to make any other comments?

No.

No. So, can I just check, Altaf, you wish to draw amendment 68. Is that correct? 

That's correct.

Okay. Does any Member object to the withdrawal of amendment 68? No. Okay.

Okay, we will move to group 5. The fifth group of amendments relates to the transitional period and transitional arrangements for existing service providers. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 2, in the name of the Minister. 

I move amendment 2, and I call on the Minister to speak to her lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Minister. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. There are a series of Government amendments relating to transitional arrangements, several of which are technical amendments to respond to recommendations of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. There is also an amendment from Mabon ap Gwynfor, which similarly relates to the transitional period.

Amendment 2 and related amendment 3 are technical amendments in response to recommendation 18 of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's Stage 1 report on the Bill. The committee recommended that the regulation-making power from paragraph 2(4)(b) of new Schedule 1A should be removed. Schedule 1A describes those legacy providers who are exempt from the not-for-profit requirement during this period, while paragraph 2(4) outlines exceptions from this exemption. The effect of amendment 2 is to add an additional circumstance in which the requirement at paragraph 2(3) of new Schedule 1A is disapplied. This removes the need for a regulation-making power, and so the next amendment, amendment 3, removes the power. 

Amendment 11 will allow Welsh Ministers to vary a provider’s registration by removing a place at which a service is provided, as an alternative to removing the whole service, under the transitional provisions at new Schedule 1A. Welsh Ministers may make regulations imposing conditions on existing providers during the transitional period, including restrictions on the type of service they may provide and the description of looked-after children they may accommodate. If a service provider fails to comply with these conditions, Welsh Ministers may vary or cancel their registration, in accordance with sections 18 to 20 of the 2016 Act. When varying the registration of a service provider subject to the transitional provisions, this amendment gives the Welsh Ministers—in practice, Care Inspectorate Wales—the option of removing a place at which a service is provided, in addition to the option of varying to remove the whole service. This gives greater flexibility to the regulator in its approach to enforcement.

Amendment 12 is a technical amendment to ensure that the correct regulation-making power is referenced in relation to any offence committed by a for-profit service provider failing to comply with regulations about restrictions placed on them during the transitional period.

Turning to Mabon ap Gwynfor’s amendment, amendment 45, this inserts a new subparagraph between paragraph 3(21) and paragraph 3(22), regarding regulations about provision of restricted children’s services by existing service providers. This new subparagraph proposes that these regulations must not affect the provider’s ability to provide restricted children’s services to any child who is in its care when the transitional period begins.

I agree with the intention of the suggested amendment, which I presume is aimed to ensure that there is no disruption to existing placements. We equally have no intention to disrupt placements that have been made before the start of the transition period. However, the regulations under section 3(1) are intended to limit placements by an English local authority to a for-profit service to specific circumstances. We do not intend them to affect placements made prior to the start of the transitional period. These are intended to continue, as we do not wish to disrupt those placements.

There is also an unintended consequence of this amendment, which causes a problem. It would enable a for-profit provider to place a child within another of its premises if an ongoing placement in place at the beginning of the transitional period were to break down. That is not consistent with our policy intention.

So, while I cannot support the amendment as drafted, it does align with our policy intention, and I’m happy to undertake to give the issue, and possible responses to it, further consideration in advance of Stage 3.

Thank you, Minister. Does any other Member wish to speak? Mabon ap Gwynfor.

‘restrictions on the type of restricted children's service that the service provider may provide’,

and

‘restrictions on the description of looked after children in respect of whom the provider may provide the restricted children's service, for example by reference to their care and support needs.’

‘This would enable Welsh Ministers to impose conditions to restrict providers who are subject to the transitional provisions to providing places for children whose placement has been approved by Welsh Ministers under section 81B of the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, or to limit the circumstances in which such providers may accept placements from local authorities in England. The power could also be used to prevent providers who are subject to the transitional provisions from providing a place for any new child after a certain date.’

Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. I call the Minister. Do you want to close?

I have nothing further to say, other than to thank Mabon for those comments and to reassure him that we will continue those discussions to try to get an agreement on that before we get to Stage 3. Thank you.

Okay. Diolch. The question is that amendment 2 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 2 is agreed.

I move amendment 3, in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 3 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore, amendment 3 is agreed.

Can I check with Altaf Hussain, that you don't want me to move amendment 69? Is that correct, Altaf?

Yes.

Okay. Therefore, amendment 69 is not moved. Mabon ap Gwynfor, I think you have moved amendment 45.

So, the question is amendment 45 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 45 be agreed. Those in favour: three in favour. Those against: three against. As the vote is tied, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore the amendment is not agreed.

I move amendment 11 in the name of the Minister. The question is amendment 11 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 11 is agreed.

I move amendment 4 in the name of the Minister. The question is amendment 4 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 4 is agreed.

The sixth group of amendments relates to the oversight of and support for transition, and the lead amendment in this group is amendment 57. I call Mabon ap Gwynfor to move and speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you, Mabon. Are there any other Members that wish to speak? Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair. Amendments 70, 71 and 72 are in response to recommendations made by this committee. Amendment 70 is an attempt to enact recommendation 9. This amendment seeks to provide an ongoing progress report to the Senedd throughout the transition period. I accept that the committee did not require an amendment to the Bill. However, amendment 71 is an attempt to enact recommendation 5. This is a probing amendment, in that it is not legislatively appropriate to place funding requirements on the face of a Bill. The Minister has accepted the recommendations either in full or in part, and has indicated that funding will be made available to both local authorities and local health boards. I have no doubt that this is the case; however, we could have a Welsh Government of a different flavour by the time this Bill comes into force. We need to explore mechanisms to ensure that funding is guaranteed.

Amendment 72 is an attempt to enact recommendation 4. The problem with the approach set out in the legislation as drafted is that there is no mechanism to simply transition from a profit-making entity to a not-for-profit model. The vast majority of providers operating in Wales are not large corporate entities with small armies of lawyers on retainers. They are small or micro entities whose sole function is to provide care for children. They're used to dealing with the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2015, not the Companies Act 2006. They need support and guidance and that guidance needs to be set out clearly before care providers are required to dissolve their businesses and reform as a not-for-profit entity. Diolch.

Do any Members wish to speak? No. I call the Minister. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. So, we're all agreed that implementation of the eliminating profit commitment needs to be properly managed. However, I cannot support amendment 57, which would place a new requirement on existing service providers subject to the transitional arrangements to inform Welsh Ministers in writing if they wish to become a not-for-profit entity, or if they wish to cease operating, within one week of that decision. That would also require Ministers to publish then lay before the Senedd three-monthly assessments setting out the number of notifications and steps being taken to mitigate potential risks. And while I understand the sentiment behind that amendment, the statutory duty to secure sufficient accommodation rests with the local authorities in accordance with section 75, as amended by this Bill, of the 2014 Act. This amendment would therefore reposition the responsibility for the practical oversight and management of transition into the wrong place.

We've been mindful all along of the risk of disruption and that's why we've worked hard to militate against this through the provisions in the Bill. These will ensure continuity for children in existing for-profit foster care or residential care placements, by allowing a registered for-profit provider to continue operating after the provisions have come into force. They will also allow local authorities to continue to place children in for-profit provision where that is consistent with their well-being and subject to ministerial approval, and place new duties on local authorities in respect of sufficiency and sufficiency plans.  

We must also recognise that delivering this commitment is not about a like-for-like replacement of one provider by another, or one placement by another. It's about rebalancing the shape, type and scale of provision. We want to look at the balance between residential care, foster care, kinship care and special guardianship orders, including models of care as part of our wider vision for children’s services.

We've also established a robust programme of work with partners across the sector through our eliminating profit programme board, to deliver the changes in a way that minimises disruption, mitigates risk and safeguards the welfare and well-being of those in care. This includes regular market intelligence from the Children’s Commissioning Consortium Cymru and Care Inspectorate Wales. CIW will, of course, also be made aware if a provider intends to exit the market or wishes to establish themselves as a not-for-profit entity. I can also confirm that the eliminating profit programme will have an ongoing role in shaping and monitoring delivery and implementation, and in assessing and mitigating risks. It has recently developed a draft national programme plan to help support this function.

In my response to the committee’s report, I committed to the publication of a six-monthly progress report, with intended publication of the first report by 22 April 2025, six months after the general principles debate. This report will include an update on the number of placements leaving the market and the number of new placements created, and will reflect on the stability of existing placements. For these reasons, I do not consider that this amendment is necessary. In the spirit of this amendment, however, I am happy to explore—including within the six-monthly progress reports that I have already undertaken to the committee will be provided—a statement on new not-for-profit providers coming on-stream.

Now, regarding amendment 58, section 11 of the Bill already requires local authorities to consider and provide the information that would be included within this amendment. The amendment is therefore not needed. In addition, I have explained that the Government cannot support amendment 57, so we cannot support amendment 58 either. Again, in the spirit of the amendment, I am however happy to give consideration to including requirements for the additional material enjoined in amendments 57 and 58 in the overall requirements for local authority sufficiency plans, such as a summary of provider intentions, so far as they're known.

Turning then to amendment 70 from Altaf Hussain, I recognise that both Members and the sector will wish to be kept informed of the progress through the transition period regarding the move towards not-for-profit provision. This was an area that was recognised within the Health and Social Care Committee’s Stage 1 report, specifically recommendation 9, which sought publication of a six-monthly progress report. I accepted this recommendation and agreed to arrange for publication of a six-monthly progress report, with intended publication of the first report by 22 April 2025. Given this published commitment, I do not see a need to duplicate a similar commitment within legislation, as this amendment proposes.

Moving to amendment 71, I recognise the wish to ensure local authorities are sufficiently funded to fulfil their vital duties relating to looked-after and accommodated children. However, I cannot support this amendment, given that funding to local authorities is not generally tied to specific duties within primary legislation. For example, the Welsh Government provides funding to each local authority through its revenue support grant, which local authorities have discretion to use as they see fit, according to their local needs and priorities. While we assume that the intention of the amendment is to focus specifically on defraying costs to local authorities arising from the implementation of the eliminating profit policy, the actual effect of the wording of the amendment is to capture all duties of local authorities relating to all aspects of services for looked-after and care-experienced children and young people. In light of those points, I'm afraid I cannot support this amendment.

Finally moving to amendment 72, I recognise the wish to ensure that legacy providers are clear on the support they will receive before the transition period begins, and how Welsh Government will communicate with them through that period. Similar to amendment 70, this was an area recognised within the Health and Social Care Committee’s Stage 1 report, specifically recommendation 4, which sought publication of the Government’s offer of guidance and support that it will make available to private and independent providers. I accepted that recommendation in part, committing to continue to work with stakeholders to consider what guidance and support could be made available to private and independent providers wishing to re-establish their business under a not-for-profit model, and to develop targeted communications to support different parts of the sector. Given these commitments, I consider duplicating a similar requirement within primary legislation to be unnecessary and therefore I don't accept this amendment.

Thank you, Minister. I call Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Mabon. The question is that amendment 57 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we'll move to a vote. The question is that amendment 57 be agreed. Those in favour. Those against. Therefore, there are three in favour and three against. So, as the vote is tied, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 57 is not agreed.

I move amendment 5 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 5 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 5 is agreed.

I move amendment 70 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 70 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we'll move to a vote. The question is that amendment 70 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three in favour and three against. As there's a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 70 is not agreed.

I move amendment 71 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 71 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we'll move to a vote. The question is that amendment 71 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three in favour and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 71 is not agreed.

I move amendment 72 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 72 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we'll move to a vote. The question is that amendment 72 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three in favour and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 72 is not agreed.

I move amendment 12 in the name of the Minister. The question is on amendment 12. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 12 is agreed.

I move amendment 6 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 6 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 6 is agreed.

The seventh group of amendments relate to the variation or cancellation of service provider registration. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 13.

I move amendment 13, and I call the Minister to speak to her lead amendment and other amendments in the group. Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Can I apologise that this is a very complex group of amendments, so you're going to have to bear with me as I take you through these one by one? Most of the amendments are intended to refine the operation of the 2016 Act, and I will explain those first. There is a small sub-group of amendments that relate to the eliminating private profit element of the Bill, and I will talk to those at the end.

It's worth explaining the background here. Section 13 of the 2016 Act provides the Welsh Ministers with the power to vary a service provider's registration without an application having been made by the service provider. The Welsh Ministers may cancel a particular service, or place in relation to which a service is provided, whilst still retaining the registration of other services and places. Section 15 of the 2016 Act provides the Welsh Ministers with the power to cancel a service provider's registration without an application having been made by the service provider. When Welsh Ministers seek to vary or cancel a service provider's registration without an application, there are two processes that they can follow. The improvement notice process is where an improvement notice is issued, which requires a service provider to set out the improvements that they are required to make to their service, within a specified time limit, to avoid the service being removed from their registration. The notice of proposal process is where a notice of proposal is issued, followed by a notice of decision at a later date to confirm that the decision has been made. This is more appropriate in circumstances where no improvement is possible. In practice, all powers about service providers' registration are exercised by Care Inspectorate Wales, as the regulator.

The principal substantive amendment here is amendment 22. It makes changes to the notice procedures that must be followed under the 2016 Act when varying a provider's registration, ensuring the notice procedures are appropriate to the circumstances. The changes to notice procedures to be followed when varying a service provider's registration without application are equivalent to provision already included in the Bill at introduction to amend section 15 of the 2016 Act to change the notice procedures to be followed when cancelling a service provider's registration without application in certain circumstances where no improvement is possible.

The amendment changes the procedure to be followed when varying a service provider's registration depending on the grounds for variation. If cancellation of a particular service or place in relation to which a service is provided is being made, on the grounds that the service provider no longer provides that service, or on the grounds that the service provider no longer provides a regulated service at, from, or in relation to that place, this amendment will provide that the notice of proposal procedure rather than the improvement notice procedure must be followed. This is because, in these circumstances, no improvement is possible.

As I've said, the Bill, as introduced, already provides for the notice of proposal procedure to be followed for the cancellation of a service provider’s entire registration in these circumstances where no improvement is possible. Amendment 22 mirrors that, by providing for the notice of proposal procedure to be followed where the regulator is varying the service provider’s registration by cancelling a particular service or place in relation to where a service is provided, within the service provider's registration.

The amendment will also give the Welsh Ministers the power to vary a service provider’s registration by removing a place if it is satisfied that the responsible individual designated in respect of that place, or any other person, has been convicted of, or has been given a caution in respect of a relevant offence in connection with a regulated service provided by the service provider at, from, or in relation to that place. The improvement notice procedure will apply where variation is on this ground. Again, this mirrors an amendment to the 2016 Act already made by the Bill as introduced, which gives the Welsh Ministers the power to cancel a service provider’s registration if appropriate in these circumstances.

Amendment 21 amends section 16(1) of the Bill. It includes a reference to the amendment of section 13 of the 2016 Act, in the overview of what this section of the Bill changes, to reflect the substantive change that I have discussed. 

Amendments 23 and 24 make refinements to the drafting of the amendments to section 15 of the 2016 Act that were included in the Bill at introduction. The purpose of both amendments is to make the drafting clearer and more precise, but they have no substantive effect.

Amendments 37, 38 and 39 are amendments to paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 to the Bill, and they make consequential amendments to sections 16 and 18 of the 2016 Act, following the changes made by amendment 22. The amendments to section 16 of the 2016 Act will ensure that this section reflects the correct circumstances when the improvement notice process must be followed. The amendments to section 18 of the 2016 Act will ensure that this section reflects the correct circumstances when the notice of proposal process must be followed.

The Government’s intention is that the provisions of the Bill amended by the amendments I have described should come into force on the day after Royal Assent—that is, section 16 of the Bill, and paragraph 5(1) to (3) of Schedule 1 to the Bill. I have tabled amendments 29 and 30, which we will discuss as part of group 17, to seek to ensure this. The reason we intend for these provisions of the Bill to come into force as soon as possible is because there are also provisions in section 8 of the Bill relating to providers of restricted children’s services, which also amend sections 13 and 15 of the 2016 Act by adding additional grounds for the Welsh Ministers to vary or cancel a service provider’s registration.

Amendment 31 makes amendments to paragraph 5 of Schedule 1 to the Bill, which makes changes to sections 13 and 15 of the 2016 Act, to assign the procedure that applies to a notice served by the regulator on a service provider to either cancel or vary the provider’s registration on these additional grounds.

It's important to note that the amendment to section 13 of the 2016 Act makes an amendment to text that would be inserted into that section by section 16 of the Bill, as amended by amendment 22. So, by commencing section 16 of the Bill the day after Royal Assent, it would ensure that the amendment made at a later date, when the provision inserted by amendment 31 comes into force, will work as intended.

Lastly, amendments 13 and 14 make minor technical amendments to section 8 of the Bill, in order to clarify the drafting of the amendments that that section inserts into sections 13 and 15 of the 2016 Act. The additions serve to identify the specific paragraphs of Schedule 1A that deal with the issues of varying or cancelling the registration of providers during the transitional period. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Thank you, Minister. Does any other Member wish to speak? Minister, do you have any other final comments?

I have no further comments, Chair. Thank you.

The question is that amendment 13 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 13 is agreed.

I move amendment 14 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 14 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 14 is agreed.

I move amendment 7 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 7 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 7 is agreed. 

Just before we move to the next group, just to indicate that, after this group, we'll have a break, so I think that might take us up to about 11 o'clock, after this group next.

The eighth group of amendments relates to out-of-area placements and the lead amendment in this group is amendment 46. I call Mabon ap Gwynfor to move and speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in the group. Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you. Is there any other Member who wishes to speak in this debate? Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Chair. Having drafted near-identical amendments to Mabon's, I was happy to withdraw my amendments, and will be supporting amendments 46 and 47.

Thank you, Altaf. No other Members. Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I want to start by saying that I fully understand the intention behind the amendments, and I actually support the intention behind these amendments as well. Unfortunately, I can't support them, as I believe that they will have unintended consequences. For example, in relation to amendments 46 and 49, for my own local authority area, Merthyr Tydfil, for example, local authority accommodation in the north of Powys under this amendment would meet the 'near to' requirement that these amendments are seeking to introduce, whilst accommodation in the closer Blaenau Gwent authority, which is not a neighbouring authority, would not.

Similarly, I can't support amendment 47, as it would have the effect that placements that are near to a child and would be particularly suitable for their needs, but which did not meet the exceptional circumstances test, would not be available for a child. Whereas another placement that is less suitable, and which could be further away, would be available.

What I think we all agree is that we want to ensure that children are placed within their local authority area as far as possible, but this must not be at the expense of them having access to placements that best meet their needs. Now, I am happy, however, to consider using the code of practice to be issued under section 145 to give guidance to local authorities on appropriately handling this issue.

Amendment 48 seeks to require a local authority to take into account a child's wishes, views and feelings if the authority has determined that the most appropriate placement is a placement in a local authority area that is near to the local authority rather than within it. Again, I fully support the intention behind this amendment, but I don't believe it's necessary. Local authorities are already under a range of statutory duties that require them to have regard to the views, wishes and feelings of a child that they are looking after. To duplicate these duties I think would be confusing and would throw doubt on their purpose, application and efficacy. I am, however, happy to undertake to reinforce the importance of local authorities complying with their existing statutory duties around this point in further communications with local authorities, and in a future code of practice to be issued under section 145.

Thank you, Minister. I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Mabon. The question is that amendment 46 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we'll move to a vote. The question is that amendment 46 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three against and three in favour. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 46 is not agreed. 

We'll take a 10 or 15-minute break. So, back around 11:05.

Lovely. Thank you very much.

The gallery has just got to be cleared as well.

Welcome back to the Health and Social Care Committee. We continue our Stage 2 proceedings and I move to group 9. The ninth group of amendments relates to the annual sufficiency plans, and the lead amendment in this group is amendment 15. 

I move amendment 15 and I call the Minister to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. So, the amendments in this group all relate to section 11 of the Bill, which places a duty on local authorities to prepare and publish an annual sufficiency plan by inserting new sections 75A, 75B and 75C into the 2014 Act.

Section 75A requires local authorities to prepare and publish an annual sufficiency plan before the beginning of each financial year. The plan must detail the steps the local authority will take in that year to fulfil its duties under section 75 to secure sufficient accommodation for looked-after children.

Section 75B sets out the procedure for the approval of the annual sufficiency plan. Before publishing the plan, a local authority must prepare a draft and submit it to Welsh Ministers for approval. The first draft must be submitted no later than four months before the beginning of the financial year to which it relates, while subsequent drafts must be submitted no later than two months before the beginning of the financial year. The Welsh Ministers must notify the local authority of a decision to approve the draft plan.

The wording of new sections 75A and 75B in the 2014 Act does not currently specify what would happen if Welsh Ministers do not give approval in time for a local authority’s annual sufficiency plan to be published before the beginning of a given year. The purpose of amendment 15 is therefore to make it clear that the local authority may not publish a plan unless the plan has first been approved by Welsh Ministers.   

Amendment 16 is consequential to amendment 15 and removes the words:

'A sufficiency plan must be in such form as may be prescribed by regulations'

at this point in the Bill, as the previous amendment inserts a version of this text earlier in the new section 75A, along with the additional clarification about what would happen if the Welsh Ministers do not give approval in time for a local authority's annual sufficiency plan to be published before the beginning of a given year.

Amendment 17 inserts a new subsection (4) into new section 75C. New section 75C sets out the procedure to be followed if the Welsh Ministers decide not to approve a draft of an annual sufficiency plan submitted by a local authority under section 75B. The effect of the amendment is to require Welsh Ministers to notify a local authority of a decision to approve a draft annual sufficiency plan submitted under section 75C in the same way as they are required to do in relation to decisions on draft plans submitted under section 75B. Diolch.

Does any other Member wish to speak? No. Do you have any closing words, Minister?

No, that's all I have to say, thank you.

The question is that amendment 15 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. So, therefore, amendment 15 is agreed.

Mabon ap Gwynfor, do you move amendment 58?

The question is that amendment 58 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. So, therefore, we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 58 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three in favour, and three against in regard to amendment 58. So, as there is a tied vote, I cast my vote in the negative, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, the amendment is not agreed.

I move amendment 16 in the name of the Minister. Does any Member object? There is no objection. So, therefore, amendment 16 is agreed.

I move amendment 17 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 17 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 17 is agreed.

Mabon ap Gwynfor, do you move amendment 47?

If amendments 47 and 48 are not agreed, amendment 49 will fall. The question is that amendment 47 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 47 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There were three in favour and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 47 is not agreed.

Mabon ap Gwynfor, do you move amendment 48?

The question is that amendment 48 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we'll move to a vote. The question is that amendment 48 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three in favour and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 48 is not agreed.

Amendment 49 has fallen.

The tenth group of amendments relates to supplementary placements and the lead amendment in this group is amendment 18 in the name of the Minister.

I move amendment 18, and I call on the Minister to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in the group. Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. The amendments in this group all relate to section 13 of the Bill, which inserts new sections 81A to 81D into the 2016 Act. Section 81 imposes a duty on a local authority to arrange for a looked-after child to live with a parent, a person with parental responsibility or a person in whose favour a child arrangements order has been made. However, where this is not consistent with the looked-after child’s well-being, or is not reasonably practicable, under section 81A, the local authority must accommodate the child in the most appropriate placement available. The section further provides that the most appropriate placement should be in not-for-profit residential or foster care in the first instance. Where this is not possible, local authorities must make an application to the Welsh Ministers for approval of what is referred to as a 'supplementary placement', under section 81B.

Amendment 18 removes the words

'that is providing the placement'

from subsection 3(a) of new section 81B. Given that the context here is a description of information required in an application for approval of a supplementary placement, it's possible that the words

'that is providing the placement'

may create the impression that approval is a foregone conclusion, which it is not.

The amendment is therefore a refinement in drafting to avoid inaccurately risking the impression that an application for a supplementary placement may be a foregone conclusion.

The purpose of amendment 19 is to remove the requirement for a child’s care and support plan to be included with a supplementary placement application. Following a review, it was identified that this requirement would mean Welsh Government potentially holding many care and support plans containing sensitive personal data, much of which is likely to be irrelevant for Welsh Ministers’ purposes in determining the application. I consider that the other application requirements in section 81B(3) are sufficient for Welsh Ministers to determine the application.

Amendment 20 is another refinement in drafting to clarify that a local authority is not required to list every available placement in England and Wales when making an application for approval of a supplementary placement. Instead, it will require the local authority to set out the reasons why it would be acting inconsistently with its section 78 duty regarding safeguarding and promoting the child's well-being if it were not to place the child in a for-profit provision. This is a proportionate approach that ensures that a local authority would still have to demonstrate why it would be acting inconsistently with its duty under section 78 of the 2014 Act if it did not seek to place in a for-profit placement, when submitting a supplementary placement application. I'm sure you would agree it would not be practical, or an effective use of local authorities’ time, to prepare a long list of placements that, whilst available, are, for some obvious reasons, unable to meet a particular child’s needs, especially as such a list would become out of date very quickly.

Turning, then, to amendments 50, 51 and 52, again, I'm sympathetic to the intention behind these amendments, but I believe that they are not necessary and could cause confusion. This is because placements that are not registered with Care Inspectorate Wales do not come within the scope of ‘supplementary placements’ and therefore could not be the subject of an application by a local authority for approval under section 81B.

The provisions of the Bill will only enable Welsh Ministers to approve a placement with a registered provider of children’s residential or foster care who is subject to the wider transitional arrangements set out in the Bill, if operating as a for-profit provider in Wales, or who is operating in England. The Bill will not enable Welsh Ministers to authorise an unregistered placement. I am, however, happy to undertake that my officials will ensure that this position is clearly set out in the statutory guidance to local authorities to support operation of the supplementary approval process. I'm also happy to give an undertaking that the due diligence checks that Welsh Government officials will undertake when considering an application for approval of a supplementary placement will include checking that the provider with whom the placement is being sought is a registered provider.

Amendment 75 would require a code of practice issued under section 145 of the 2014 Act to provide clarity on whether a child can be placed in a supplementary placement in advance of approval being given by Welsh Ministers. It would also require the code to enable Welsh Ministers to delegate their power to approve supplementary placements and to include examples of exceptional circumstances in which supplementary placements may be used.

In my response to recommendation 10 of the committee’s report, I committed to ensuring that any guidance or code of practice issued in relation to section 13 confirms that the Bill does not prevent local authorities from placing a child in a supplementary placement prior to ministerial approval being given. In addition, under the Carltona principle, Welsh Government officials are currently able to act on behalf of Welsh Ministers, and we could apply this to approve placements, if necessary. In light of this, I do not consider it necessary to place similar requirements within primary legislation.

I also agreed that such guidance would emphasise that the use of supplementary placements would not become the default position, particularly during challenging times. And whilst I understand the sentiment behind including examples of exceptional circumstances in which supplementary placements can be used, I don't think it would be appropriate or necessary to do this.

New sections 81A and 81B of the Bill set out clearly the range of factors that local authorities must consider before determining that the most appropriate placement for a child is with a for-profit or private provider. The subsequent application for approval for a supplementary placement must also set out why the local authority considers that it should not place a child with a not-for-profit foster parent or not-for-profit children's home provider that has availability.

Amendment 76 would require Welsh Ministers, in respect of each financial year, to publish a report relating to supplementary placements. This report must include anonymised data about the age of each child placed in a supplementary placement, the local authority that placed them, the type of placement requested, whether it was in Wales or elsewhere, whether the child had previously been placed in a supplementary placement, the cost of the placement and any other relevant information. The amendment also requires this report to be laid before the Senedd as soon as reasonably practical. I of course understand the wish of Members to be updated on the position regarding Welsh Ministers' approval of supplementary placements and this was an area that was highlighted in recommendation 11 of the committee's Stage 1 report. So, whilst I don't consider that this requirement is necessary to be included within the primary legislation, in my response to the committee in respect of that recommendation, I did agree to update the Senedd periodically on the position regarding Welsh Ministers' approval of supplementary placements. Diolch.

Thank you, Minister. Are there any other Members who wish to speak? I saw Mabon ap Gwynfor first, then I'll come to Lesley, then Altaf. Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you, Mabon. Lesley Griffiths. Did you want to speak?

No.

Sorry. You were just waving at me, perhaps. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Chair. Again, Mabon and I had the same intent and drafted identical amendments. I was happy to withdraw my amendments and add my support to amendments 50, 51 and 52. While we all know that unregistered placements are already unlawful, it is generally acknowledged that such placements are being made, and we are concerned that the Bill, as drafted, will increase pressure for more such placements. These amendments will reaffirm the position that such placements will not be tolerated.

Amendments 75 and 76 are in response to this committee's recommendations 10 and 11, covering supplementary placements. I share the committee's concern that supplementary placements should be a last resort. While the Minister accepts the committee's points, she indicated that it should not be on the face of the Bill. We believe that the provisions must be on the face of the Bill to ensure that future Ministers have the same intent as our current Ministers. Thank you.

Sam Rowlands.

Thank you, Chair. I just want to support my colleague Altaf Hussain in his comments there. In addition, just to register my likely intent to abstain on amendment 20 and just to explain why that's the case. It's not necessarily the principle or the intent of that amendment that I'm against, it's the way in which the drafting of it has come about within the amendment today. The amendment, again, refers to a 'private provider', understandably, but the definition of 'private provider' is a number of pages back in the draft legislation and somewhat, you could suggest, hidden within section 11. So, I think, there's just an opportunity to make that cleaner and simpler for people to understand in terms of the drafting of the legislation. So, as I say, not against the intent of it, it's just the way in which it's been drafted. I think there's an opportunity perhaps at Stage 3 to make that cleaner and clearer for people.

Okay. The Minister to reply.

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for those comments, and I note your position on that, Sam. And just to respond very briefly to Altaf's point about the reporting not being on the face of the Bill, I think the very fact that this has been recorded in committee and in response to a committee report is very clearly setting out the Welsh Government's intent, whether I am the Minister or not. And so, I think, as you say, I consider that would be a duplication of commitments already given and not necessary. 

The question is that amendment 18 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 18 is agreed. 

I move amendment 19 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 19 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 19 is agreed. 

I move amendment 20 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 20 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we'll move to a vote. The question is that amendment 20 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. That's four. Those against, please raise your hands. Any abstentions? There are two abstentions. Therefore, amendment 20 is agreed.

Mabon ap Gwynfor, do you move amendment 50?

The question is that amendment 50 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, so we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 50 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three against and three in favour. As there was a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 50 is not agreed. 

Mabon ap Gwynfor, do you move amendment 51?

There is an objection. Therefore, we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 51 be agreed. Do any Members object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we move to a vote. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three in favour and three against. As there was a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 51 is not agreed. 

Mabon ap Gwynfor, do you move amendment 52?

The question is that amendment 52 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. So, we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 52 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three in favour and three against. As there was a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 52 is not agreed. 

I move amendment 75 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 75 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 75 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against,  please raise your hands. There are three in favour and three against. As there was a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 75 is not agreed.

I move amendment 76 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 76 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, I move to a vote. The question is that amendment 76 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three for and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 76 is not agreed. 

Mabon ap Gwynfor, do you move amendment 59?

If amendment 59 is not agreed, amendment 60 will fall. The question is that amendment 59 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we move to a vote. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. Three in favour and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 59 is not agreed.

I move amendment 77 in the name of Altaf Hussain. If amendment 77 is not agreed, amendment 94 will fall. The question is that amendment 77 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, I move to a vote. The question is that amendment 77 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against please raise your hands. There are three in favour and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 77 is not agreed.

I move amendment 21 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 21 be agreed. Does any Member object? There are no objections. Therefore, amendment 21 is agreed.

I move amendment 22 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 22 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 22 is agreed.

I move amendment 23 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 23 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 23 is agreed.

I move amendment 24 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 24 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, amendment 24 is agreed.

The eleventh group of amendments relates to the power to require information et cetera. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 25, in the name of the Minister.

I move amendment 25, and I call the Minister to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in this group. Minister.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. The amendments in this group will remove ambiguity and ensure that the regulator, on behalf of the Welsh Ministers, has the powers to carry out their regulatory functions in relation to the requirement for regulated services to be registered in accordance with the 2016 Act. The main amendment in this group is amendment 25, which will amend section 17 of the Bill. In turn, that will amend Part 1, Chapter 3 of the 2016 Act.

For context, it is an offence under section 5 of the 2016 Act to provide a regulated service without being registered under section 7 of the 2016 Act. The amendment to section 32 of the 2016 Act provides the power to require information from a person who is reasonably suspected of providing, or having provided, a regulated service without being registered.

A new section 32A is inserted into the 2016 Act to uphold an individual's privilege against self-incrimination. It provides that any information given in response to a notice under section 32, to require information, may not be used against that person in criminal proceedings.

The amendment to section 33 extends the meaning of 'inspection' to include the management of a regulated service. The purpose is to clarify and more accurately reflect what an inspection relates to. The amendment to section 33 introduces the term 'investigation'. This is an investigation into whether a person is providing, or has provided, a regulated service at a place in respect of which that person is, or was, not registered under section 7 of the Act.

The amendment to section 34 provides an inspector with the power to enter, for the purposes of an investigation, any premises that the inspector has reasonable grounds to believe is, or has been, used as a place at, or from, which a regulated service is, or has been, provided, or in connection with the provision of a regulated service, without registration. The amendment to section 35 provides an inspector with the power to interview any person for the purpose of an investigation.

The amendments to section 36 serve two purposes. They give the Welsh Ministers—in practice, the regulator—the discretion to be proportionate about the content of an inspection report. This is intended to recognise that there are circumstances where an inspector may enter premises for purposes other than to carry out an inspection and, therefore, a full inspection report is not warranted. The amendments to section 36 also remove the requirement to publish inspection reports in circumstances where it would be inappropriate to do so, having regard to the best interests of the people to whom care and support is being provided. This is intended to protect the privacy of service users and reflects current practice.

Moving on to amendment 36, this is a consequential amendment. It amends the overview in section 1 of the 2016 Act to add reference to investigations into paragraph (c) of that section. This reflects the changes that would be made to the 2016 Act by amendment 25.

The final amendment in this group is amendment 40. This amendment is ancillary to amendment 25, which makes further provision in relation to the Welsh Ministers’ powers to carry out inspections and to require information. Amendment 40 is a textual amendment, which adds wording to the chapter heading in Part 1, Chapter 3 of the 2016 Act, and to the heading for section 50 of that Act, to be consistent with the substantive amendments. The new wording makes clear that the powers to require information, to enter and inspect, and to interview persons are powers that can be used in relation to investigations as well as for inspections. Diolch, Cadeirydd.

Thank you. Do any other Members wish to speak? No. Any further comments, Minister?

No further comments. Thank you.

The question is that amendment 25 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 25 is agreed.

I move amendment 26 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 26 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 26 is agreed. 

The twelfth group of amendment relates to personal assistants, and the only amendment in this group is amendment 78, in the name of Altaf Hussain.

I move that amendment, and I call on Altaf Hussain to speak to his amendment. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Chair. Amendment 78 is drafted to attempt to flesh out how the Welsh Government plan to provide for sufficient numbers of personal assistants to meet any demand for direct payments in relation to continuing healthcare, as a result placing a duty on local authorities to undertake workforce planning. During the course of evidence gathering in relation to the Bill, stakeholders told this committee of concerns in relation to the workforce fragility, particularly in relation to PAs. The Minister has indicated that she expects the vast majority of PAs to be drawn from the existing pool, yet stakeholders tell us of problems for recipients of direct payments in employing PAs. This led the committee to make recommendation 23. I have sought to incorporate the committee's concern in this amendment, as well as addressing the wider concerns with regard to workforce sufficiency. Thank you.

Do any other Members wish to speak? No. I call on the Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Well, obviously, we do recognise the value of our personal assistants, and we're committed to improving their terms and conditions, not only to encourage more people to take up the role, but to value and retain the dedicated workers that we already have. Unfortunately, though, I cannot support amendment 78. This is because the amendment is, I consider, problematic. It places specific workforce planning duties on local authorities in relation to the whole PA workforce, including a requirement to plan the recruitment of personal assistants. This overlooks that many personal assistants are not recruited or employed by local authorities, because they are employed by direct payments recipients, and that, in future, CHC recipients will also be employing personal assistants, who will, thereby, come under the umbrella of the NHS. Instead of legislating, I think attention is best focused on supporting cross-stakeholder work to support and develop the PA workforce.

As to the element that relates to the Welsh Government promoting the role of PAs, I can assure committee members that we are already active in this role and that there is no need to place a duty in the 2014 Act to that effect. To give just a few examples of both points, the Welsh Government-led PA stakeholder group, which includes representation from trade unions, from Social Care Wales and PA employers, is taking forward actions relating to pay, terms and conditions, training and development, promoting trade unions and ways to promote the support and information available to PAs. Alongside our stakeholder group, an all-Wales PA working group, which includes representatives from each local authority, is also working to drive forward better terms and conditions for PAs, and seeking to bring parity across the local authorities. These two groups work closely together to ensure clear links and a shared understanding of what work is taking place to improve things for PAs. PAs are also included in the development of the social care workforce pay and progression framework, which will ensure that PAs are considered in relation to pay progression as part of the wider social care workforce, going forward. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Minister. Altaf Hussain, do you have any final comments?

No. Thanks very much, Chair, although there are so many common grounds that I thought Minister might yield and she might come forward in saying that we'll work together again with the committee to take it to Stage 3.

Thank you, Altaf. The question is that amendment 78 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 78 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three in favour and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 78 is not agreed.

Amendment 60 has fallen. 

I move amendment 31. The question is that amendment 31 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 31 is agreed. 

I move amendment 32 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 32 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 32 is agreed. 

Amendment 61 has fallen. Also, 98 has fallen. Can I check with you, Altaf Hussain, if you want me to move amendment 99, or are you withdrawing amendment 99?

I withdraw.

It's withdrawn. Okay. Thank you, Altaf Hussain. 

I move amendment 8 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 8 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 8 is agreed. 

I move amendment 33 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 33 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 33 is agreed. 

I move amendment 34 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 34 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 34 is agreed. 

I move amendment 35 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 35 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 35 is agreed. 

I move amendment 36 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 36 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 36 is agreed. 

I move amendment 37 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 37 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 37 is agreed. 

I move amendment 38 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 38 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 38 is agreed. 

I move amendment 39 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 39 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 39 is agreed. 

I move amendment 40 in the name of the Minister. The question is does any Member object. There is no objection, therefore amendment 40 is agreed. 

The thirteenth group of amendments relates to direct payments for healthcare and the provision of information, advice and support. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 53 and I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to move and speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in the group. Mabon ap Gwynfor.

Thank you. Do any other Members wish to speak? Minister. Sorry. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you very much, Chair. Amendments 84, 82, 85, 86 and 91 are seeking to address concerns about the information, advice and support to individuals seeking to take up direct payments for continuing healthcare, particularly around the transition between social care and continuing healthcare.

The substantive amendments are 85 and 91, which seek to address the committee's recommendations 17 and 18 respectively. While it was possible to draft an amendment that fully reflects the committee's recommendation, I felt it necessary to bring these forward as probing amendments to gauge how the Minister will seek to address the need for information, advice and support. Diolch.

Thank you, Altaf. Minister. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd, and can I thank both Mabon ap Gwynfor and Altaf Hussain for those comments and the amendments that they've tabled? The principal amendment in the group laid by Mabon ap Gwynfor is amendment 54, which seeks to add a new section to the Bill that contains a requirement for health boards to provide advice and assistance in relation to direct payments for continuing healthcare. Amendments 53 and 55 are supplementary to this amendment. I appreciate Members’ concerns that the application of direct payments to continuing healthcare should be supported by the right information, advice and support, and honour the intention behind this amendment. I'm sympathetic to the spirit of the amendment—that there should be provision on the face of the Bill about there being a requirement for health boards to provide information, advice and support. Unfortunately, the amendment doesn't work within the statutory framework that the Bill creates because it imposes a duty directly on local health boards in relation to functions that they will not possess, unless and until Welsh Ministers exercise the power to make regulations concerning direct payments. For that reason, I can't support the amendment as drafted or the related amendments—53 and 55.

The principal amendment in the group laid by Altaf Hussain is amendment 85. This amendment seeks to place a requirement on the face of the Bill for LHBs to prepare and publish guidance for patients containing information relating to direct payments. Amendments 82, 84 and 86 are related to and support this amendment. Unfortunately, I can't support this amendment as drafted. Whilst guidance for patients containing information for direct payments will be issued, the intention is for a central approach to ensure consistency. Preparation of guidance will be considered as one of the responsibilities of the central hub, with engagement from LHBs. This should help us to avoid what I think we would all wish to avoid—a situation where there are seven different guidance documents, one for each LHB area. However, I am happy to consider, as a matter of priority, an amendment at Stage 3 that works within the statutory framework created by the Bill to achieve the same ultimate aim regarding mandating the provision of information and support, and I would be keen to engage with Members regarding that amendment. I would also like to assure committee members that any guidance issued will include information as specified in the drafted subsections (2) and (3) of Altaf’s amendment. The intention is for this national level guidance to be revised and republished as necessary by the central hub, with input from all LHBs. It will also take account of feedback from individuals.

Finally, amendment 91 seeks to require Welsh Ministers to report, to a significant level of detail, on the progress of implementation of direct payments and development of the proposed central hub. In line with my response to the Health and Social Care Committee, I have already agreed that the Welsh Government will provide updates on the development of the central hub as it's being established. Again, I am happy to attend committee or to make statements in the Siambr to account for progress with implementation of the CHC direct payment provisions, and I therefore believe that this amendment would be unnecessary. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you, Minister. I call on Mabon ap Gwynfor to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Mabon. The question is that amendment 53 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 53 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three for and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 53 is not agreed.

I move amendment 84 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 84 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, I move to a vote. The question is that amendment 84 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Three in favour. Those against. Three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 84 is not agreed.

The fourteenth group of amendments relates to oversight and support for direct payments in healthcare. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 79, in the name of Altaf Hussain.

I move amendment 79 and I call Altaf Hussain to speak to the lead amendment and other amendments in the group. Altaf.

Thank you, Chair. Amendments 79, 80, 81, 83, 87, 88, 89, 90 and 92 seek to place clarity upon the arrangements that will be put in place to support the direct payments system. Amendment 87 is a probing amendment, in that I accept that it is not legislatively appropriate to require funding to be made available. However, we need to address the funding question in some way, because there are no guarantees that future Governments will make the same commitment that the current Government has made in relation to additional funding for direct payments. I would be happy to withdraw this amendment if the Minister will work with us to address these concerns ahead of Stage 3.

Amendment 88 is in response to this committee's recommendation 25, to ensure that the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities features prominently in guidance issued on Part 2 of the Bill. We have gone slightly further than the approach recommended by the committee, based upon the legal advice we received. It will provide for such guidance to be issued on the basis that any guidance issued in relation to direct payments will be statutory guidance.

Amendment 89 seeks to address this committee's wish that a post-implementation review take place and

'considers the awareness, amongst social care users, about the new option of direct payments for CHC'.

We have set a three-year reporting cycle to ensure that such a report is laid before each Senedd at least once during its term.

Amendment 90 is in response to this committee's recommendation 22 regarding monitoring the spending of local health boards in relation to direct payments. This is a probing amendment, in that we don't set out how expenditure on the direct payments is to be determined. I'm prepared to withdraw this amendment and its consequential amendments if the Minister will work with us to address concerns ahead of Stage 3.

Coming to amendment 92, it is also a probing amendment, this time in response to this committee's recommendation 20. Again, it is brought forward in the knowledge that we could have a different Welsh Government by the time this Bill comes into effect. While this amendment will not work in practice, I believe we need to address how we assess how local health boards are preparing for and adapting to the new direct payments regime. As with the previous amendments, I'm prepared to withdraw this amendment and its consequential amendments if the Minister will work with us to address concerns ahead of Stage 3. Diolch.

Do any other Members wish to speak? No. Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. So, whilst I appreciate the intention behind the amendments in the group, Altaf, unfortunately, I'm not able to support them, and I'll explain why.

Amendment 88 seeks to require Welsh Ministers to issue guidance to LHBs on how to deliver direct payments for continuing healthcare through statutory guidance, including provision on having due regard to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. Now, I can't support this amendment, because I don't believe that it works within the structural context of the Bill. Local health boards do not have any functions in relation to direct payments until such time as they're conferred by regulation. Regulations will be put in place to set out how direct payments should be operated by LHBs, supported by statutory guidance, and it is at that time and in that form that the importance of the UNCRPD will be, rightly, emphasised. 

In this context, I'm happy to assure committee members that any guidance issued on Part 2 of the Bill relating to direct payments in continuing healthcare will highlight the importance of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.

Turning to amendment 89, this seeks to require Welsh Ministers to report on the operation and effect of delivering direct payments, with stringent three-year reporting. So, I cannot support this amendment, because the evaluation of the introduction of CHC direct payments will consider awareness among social care users of the option of direct payments for CHC. The evaluation will also include acquiring the data sets from LHBs, which will be used to understand take-up of CHC direct payments in Wales. The evaluation will consider and recommend on future monitoring and reporting requirements. 

Timescales for the evaluation have not yet been fixed, but the Welsh Government will provide an update on this as part of a future update on implementation, and, as part of this, I am, of course, happy to attend the Health and Social Care Committee or to make statements in the Siambr to account for progress with implementation of the CHC direct payments provisions. And for this reason, I don't believe that amendment 89 is necessary.

Amendment 90 seeks to require Welsh Minsters to prepare and publish reports of the expenditure incurred by LHBs in relation to direct payments. It also requires the financial position for LHBs to be reported upon. This duplicates existing financial reporting requirements with regard to LHBs and is out of alignment with existing reporting timescales. Welsh Government has already committed to monitor the spend and financial impact of the delivery of direct payments for health boards over the initial three years of the policy as part of the evaluation, and will share this information with Members. It's probably worth noting that there's probably limited reason to anticipate that there will be any particular financial challenges related to CHC direct payments, once this becomes a formal part of the provision of continuing healthcare.

I cannot, therefore, support this amendment, but have already committed, as part of my response to the Finance Committee, that Welsh Government will monitor the spend and financial impact of the delivery of direct payments for health boards over that initial three-year policy as part of the evaluation. This is probably more proportionate and appropriate than the requirement in the amendment, which also duplicates existing financial reporting requirements regarding LHBs.

Now, amendment 92 seeks to require Welsh Ministers to prepare reports setting out their assessment of the progress made by LHBs in preparing for direct payments, and includes timescales for reporting. I can't support this amendment, as I believe it's unnecessary, having already committed to provide updates on the progress being made by health boards as they prepare to take on these new responsibilities.

Finally, turning to amendment 87, this amendment seeks to specify that Welsh Minsters pay LHBs an amount sufficient to deliver direct payments. Now, I can't support this amendment, as funding for continuing NHS healthcare is already factored into LHB budgets on an annual basis. In addition, funding costs for the implementation of direct payments are set out in the explanatory memorandum, and I've already given an undertaking that for the initial three-year period the core implementation costs will be funded by Welsh Government to aid transition. It is not, therefore, necessary, nor do I think it would be appropriate, to single out this element of the total funding to the NHS for delivery of its services in this way.

Thank you, Minister. I call Altaf Hussain to close the debate.

Thank you very much, Minister. I thought that you might come forward with or at least find something common that we could take further to Stage 3.

Thank you, Altaf. If amendment 79 is not agreed—. If amendment 79 is agreed, amendments 80, 81, 82 and 83 will fall. So, the question is that amendment 79 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 79 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. 

Oh, sorry. I was looking at it and wondering why my light was on. [Laughter.]

Three for. And three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 79 is not agreed. 

I move amendment 80 in the name of Altaf Hussain. If amendment 80 is agreed, amendments 81, 82 and 83 will fall. The question is that amendment 80 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. So, therefore, we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 80 be agreed to. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. Three for and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 80 is not agreed. 

I move amendment 81 in the name of Altaf Hussain. If amendment 81 is agreed, amendments 82 and 83 will fall. The question is that amendment 81 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 81 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. Three for, three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 81 is not agreed.

I move amendment 82 in the name of Altaf Hussain. If amendment 82 is agreed, amendment 83 will fall. The question is that amendment 82 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. So, therefore, we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 82 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. Three for and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 82 is not agreed.

I move amendment 83 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 83 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 83 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. Three for, three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 83 is not agreed.

Mabon ap Gwynfor, do you move amendment 54?

If amendment 54 is not agreed, amendment 55 will fall. The question is that amendment 54 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, I move to a vote. The question is that amendment 54 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three for and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 54 is not agreed.

I move amendment 85 in the name of Altaf Hussain. If amendment 85 is not agreed, amendment 86 will fall. The question is that amendment 85 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore, I move to a vote. The question is that amendment 85 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three against and three for. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 85 is not agreed.

The fifteenth group of amendments relate to direct payments for healthcare and make minor and consequential changes. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 27 in the name of the Minister. 

So, I move amendment 27, and I call on the Minister to speak to her lead amendment and other amendments in the group. Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. So, the amendments in this group are minor drafting and consequential amendments, including one which gives effect to a recommendation by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, and I would ask Members to support them. 

Amendment 27 is an amendment to new section 10C(2)(l) of the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006, which is being inserted by section 24(2) of the Bill. This will add the word 'to' between 'as' and 'whether' in this provision, and it's intended to improve the clarity and precision of the drafting of this provision.

Amendment 28 will apply the draft affirmative procedure to the regulation-making power to the regulations to make provision about direct payments under section 10C(1) of the National Health Services (Wales) Act 2006, which is inserted by section 24 of the Bill. This amendment is made in response to recommendation 28 from the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee's Stage 1 report, which the Welsh Government accepted.

Amendments 41 and 42 amend paragraph 3 of Schedule 2 to the Bill. They make amendments to the National Health Service (Wales) Act 2006, and they are consequential on the provision inserted by section 24 of the Bill to enable the Welsh Ministers to make direct payments in lieu of the provision of NHS services.

The final amendment in this group is amendment 43. This consequential amendment is required to section 21(8) of the Criminal Justice and Courts Act 2015 to include the correct statutory references to the powers of health bodies—the Welsh Ministers and local health boards—to make direct payments in lieu of the provision of services. Diolch yn fawr. 

Are there any other Members that wish to speak? Do you have any closing remarks, Minister? No. The question is that amendment 27 be agreed to. Does any Member object? There is no objection and therefore amendment 27 is agreed.

Amendment 55 has fallen. Amendment 86 has fallen.

I move amendment 87 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 87 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 87 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three for and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 87 is not agreed.

I move amendment 88 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 88 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. Therefore we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 88 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. Three for, three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 88 is not agreed.

I move amendment 89 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 89 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore I move to a vote. The question is that amendment 89 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three for and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 89 is not agreed.

I move amendment 90 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 90 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore I move to a vote. The question is that amendment 90 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. Three for, three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 90 is not agreed.

I move amendment 91 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 91 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection and therefore we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 91 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three for and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 91 is not agreed.

I move amendment 92 in the name of Altaf Hussain. The question is that amendment 92 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, and therefore we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 92 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. There are three for and three against. As there is a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 92 is not agreed.

I move amendment 28 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 28 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, and therefore amendment 28 is agreed.

I move amendment 41 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 41 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, and therefore amendment 41 is agreed.

I move amendment 42 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 42 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 42 is agreed.

I move amendment 43 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 43 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 43 is agreed.

The sixteenth group of amendments relates to a review of the CHC framework. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 93 in the name of Altaf Hussain. 

I move amendment 93 and I call on Altaf Hussain to speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in this group. Altaf Hussain.

Thank you, Chair. Amendments 93 and 96 were tabled in response to recommendation 24 by this committee. I know that the Minister has committed to review the current CHC framework by 2026-27, but, again, I'm concerned that we have a Senedd election in 2026 and we could have a different Minister. I am therefore seeking assurance that such a review will be undertaken and that the review will result in new guidance, should that be deemed necessary. 

I am once again prepared to withdraw these amendments if the Minister will commit to working with us to address that review ahead of Stage 3 proceedings. Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Altaf. Do any other Members wish to speak? Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. So, amendment 93 refers to a review of the 'Continuing NHS Healthcare: The National Framework for Implementation in Wales' 2021. The Welsh Government can't support this amendment because a requirement to undertake a review of the CHC framework does not need to be placed on the face of the Bill. There is already a published, existing commitment to review the framework within five years of implementation, this being 2027.

As part of our response to the Health and Social Care Committee's Stage 1 report, the Welsh Government has reiterated this commitment and agreed that we will bring forward the existing commitment to revise the CHC framework to align with the introduction of CHC direct payments. Doing this will enable relevant information regarding the newly established direct payments for CHC to be included in the revised framework. We're also drafting an action plan to address matters raised regarding the CHC national framework, as well as issues that stakeholders have told us affect the current processes. All the key stakeholders for CHC and the funded nursing care policy and delivery will be engaged and will play a meaningful role in the revision of the CHC national framework to ensure that it's fit for purpose and fit for Wales.

Amendment 96 relates to and supports amendment 93. This amendment has the effect that the provision containing the requirement to review will come into force on the day after the day on which the Bill receives Royal Assent. As I cannot support amendment 93, I do not support amendment 96 either, and I ask Members to vote against both of these amendments.

Thank you. I will call on Altaf Hussain to close the debate.

Thank you very much, Chair. I enjoyed being here, I enjoyed being with the Minister, who has not accepted anything. [Laughter.] I would have thought that there would be something—

One.

—some common ground that we could take to Stage 3, but I'm sorry, I don't know. We'll look forward to that.

Well, I'm grateful that you've enjoyed being in the Health and Social Care Committee this morning, Altaf.

If amendment 93 is not agreed, amendment 96 will fall. The question is that amendment 93 be agreed. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection, therefore we move to a vote. The question is that amendment 93 be agreed. Those in favour, please raise your hands. Those against, please raise your hands. Three against and three for. As there was a tied vote, I use my casting vote in the negative, that is, against the amendment, in accordance with Standing Order 6.20. Therefore, amendment 93 is not agreed.

Amendment 94 has fallen. Can I just check with you, Altaf, on amendment 95? I think from your contribution, you said that you were not moving that amendment.

That's correct, yes.

So, amendment 95 is not moved.

The final group of amendments relates to the coming into force provisions. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 29 in the name of the Minister.

I move amendment 29 and I call on the Minister to speak to the lead amendment and the other amendments in the group. Minister.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. And before I speak to this final group of amendments, can I thank all members of the committee for their considerations today and for the positive way in which the amendments have been taken forward? I understand that Altaf is very disappointed, probably as is Mabon, that we haven't agreed the opposition amendments, but I think there is still a significant amount of scope for us to work collaboratively together before we get to Stage 3. And even if we can't be looking at putting things on the face of the Bill, I think that, within guidance, within regulation and within support for the sector, I think there is still a lot of scope for us to be able to work together to get that forward into Stage 3. And we have agreed that there is one amendment that we'll work on together as well. So, thank you very, very much.

In terms of these amendments, the amendments in this group are technical amendments to ensure that provisions are commenced in an order that ensures that the legislation works as intended at each point in the process of commencing provisions. Specifically, the effect is that the provisions concerned are brought into force the day after Royal Assent. In particular, they would ensure the correct sequencing of commencement of provisions in sections 8 and 16 of the Bill, as I explained earlier when we debated group 7, regarding variation or cancellation of service provider registration.

Amendment 29 will ensure that section 16 of the Bill comes into force the day after Royal Assent. Amendment 30 will ensure that the changes made to various enactments by the paragraph to be inserted by amendment 8, as well as by paragraphs 3(b), 4(3), 5(1) to 5(3) and (5)(9) and 5(10) of Schedule 1 to the Bill, will all come into force on the day after the day the Bill receives Royal Assent. Thank you.

Thank you, Minister. Are there any other Members wishing to speak? No. Minister, any final comments?

No. Thank you.

No. The question is that amendment 29 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, so amendment 29 is agreed. 

I move amendment 30 in the name of the Minister. The question is that amendment 30 be agreed. Does any Member object? There is no objection, therefore amendment 30 is agreed. 

Amendment 96 has fallen. Can I check with you, Altaf Hussain? I think in your contribution you said that you weren't going to move amendment 97.