National Assembly for Wales

I'll ask our witnesses if they could introduce themselves, please, for the record, and if I could go to Abi first.

Good morning. I'm Abi Tierney, and I'm chief executive at Welsh Rugby Union.

Thank you, Abi. And Richard.

Good morning. Richard Collier-Keywood, chair of the Welsh Rugby Union.

Thank you so much for being with us this morning. We'll go straight into questions, if that's all right. The independent review, it had referred to serious institutional and cultural problems at the WRU. Are you satisfied with the pace at which you have been able to implement the review’s recommendations?

Thank you. If you recall, the review had 36 recommendations within it. We split those 36 recommendations into 49 actionable items, and we sent an update to this committee, I think last week. Of those 49 actionable items we showed in that update, 39 of them had been completed, three had not been completed or are at risk of not being completed on time, and seven were not yet due to be completed. So, I think that gives you a high-level view of where we are and the work that's gone on.

Thank you for that. In the last few days, you've published an annual report, and that publishes a loss of £7.5 million annually. How does the financial situation that you find yourselves in affect your ability to implement those review recommendations, please?

I don't think it actually influences it terribly much, if I'm honest with you. We have, I think, enough money to implement the review recommendations, subject to coming back to one point, which is our investment in the women's game, and we'll talk about that in a bit more detail. But, as you know, the WRU exists to, if you like, regulate the game in Wales, but we also exist to create finances, which we then invest in two things: the first is the community game, and the second is the professional game.

Thanks very much for coming in to give evidence to the committee today. Just to follow up on what you said about the recommendations and the actionable items, on governance and culture, in terms of those that haven't yet been implemented, is there a time frame for that? And what would you say, overall, about governance and culture and the recommendations' implementation, and where the WRU is likely to be in the very short-term future?

Thank you. So, in governance terms, it's probably helpful if I'd describe where we've got to in governance terms. So, in the second half of the last calendar year, we put in place our new board, and that board, just to remind everybody, consists of eight appointed members, and two of those are Abi and myself, and four elected members who come up through the council of the WRU, so the community game. If you look at that board through other lenses, we have five women and we have seven men. We have six people with a predominantly business background, and we have six people with a predominantly rugby background, including three people who have represented Wales, internationally, on that board. From my perspective, the board has come together very well. It works as one board, with people bringing some very diverse viewpoints into the room to debate issues and to wrestle them, if you like, to a conclusion.

I have done informal interviews with each board member, back in the summer of 2024, to both give them feedback on how they’re individually performing on the board, and for them also to input to me as Chair, to understand how they think we could improve what we’re doing as a board. We’re at the moment collecting feedback—360-degree feedback—on all those board members, and I will be doing formal appraisals later on in December and in January. We have appointed a senior independent director on the board, who's Alison Thorne, and Alison will be doing an appraisal of me in relation to my role as chair. We’ve also, from a governance perspective, issued four quarterly reports responding to the independent review, and we’ve sent that to the oversight group, which we’ve put in place during the course of this year.

And, again, just for the record, probably, there are three members of that oversight group. The first is Dame Anne Rafferty, who was a Lady Justice of Appeal in England and Wales from 2011 to 2020. The second member is Dame Katherine Grainger, who is probably the most decorated female Olympian, and the third member is Rachel Brace, who’s the HR director of the Football Association. We’ve had regular contact with them across the year, including a face-to-face meeting at the Principality Stadium back in August 2024, where they interrogated the work that we had done in relation to implementing the independent review recommendations.

To come back to one of your questions, I think you asked what hasn’t been done yet in terms of governance. There was one recommendation in the independent review report, which was to review where we’ve got to independently—a review of the board—to be done within two years of the review recommendations. Obviously, the board needs to get a chance to show how it's performing, and we’ve been doing that for the last year. As I said, we’ve done the informal set-up for that, and it’s our intention to do that independent review in the summer next year, which is within the two-year period, if you like. So, that’s an example of one of the seven recommendations I mentioned earlier that have not been done, because, from a time perspective, obviously we want to do that at the right time. And the other six are all in a similar vein.

The second part of your question, I think, was on culture, and we’ve been quite reflective of that over the course of the last 12 months as a board. I think it’s really important that we’re role models for that culture, and that we have done quite a lot—and I’m going to turn to Abi in a moment and just get her to outline some of the things we’ve done in the detail of the organisation to change that culture—but I’m obviously bound to say that years of previous culture does take time to change. And, yes, we’re impatient to do that, but we’re also realistic in terms of not claiming false dawns in relation to that.

I think that I have said publicly—including, I think, when I was last with you—something to the effect of, when you start to change the culture and you make it safe for people to speak up about things that are wrong in the culture, you can expect that people, and you hope that people will then speak up and say things to you, because that means that, for the first time perhaps, you're hearing what’s wrong. And that’s important in an organisation where we obviously have employees and we want to follow due process in relation to those employees. And I think we’re in that phase now: people are feeling safer to speak up. I’m not saying it’s perfect, but we’ve had examples of people speaking up, and we are taking those issues through due process.

So, let me turn to Abi, and maybe she can say a few more things that we’ve been doing on the ground in terms of changing that culture.

Thank you, Richard. As Richard said, I think, culture—. We’ve got 143 years of really proud history and tradition of Welsh Rugby Union, and we’re trying to change the culture, trying to professionalise it as an organisation, to ensure that it is run in the way that you’d expect to run a £100 million plus business. That takes time, but we’ve done a lot to put in really clear processes around accountability, around performance, around clear budgeting, to enable us to improve our financial position, around ensuring that colleagues understand what's expected of them, both in terms of what they do and how they do that. But that, then, takes time in order to implement it. 

The other thing that, actually, we've been really honest about being 'red' on here is the work we're doing on values, because we want to ensure—. I have certainly been in organisations before where values are a bit of a tick in the box, top-down exercise that the organisation don't live and breathe and own, and we took the conscious and intentional decision to take some more time to develop those values and ensure that we were developing them in conjunction with colleagues in all elements of the organisation. So, that's one of the red ones and the one that is a real focus for us.

I think that you asked a question about timing on some of the ones that we haven't implemented. We'd be hoping to do that in the first quarter of next year, in terms of finalising that work. We're going through a process of focus groups, et cetera, at the moment. So, it's all work in progress. I'll be really honest as well—we've implemented a new strategy that requires what I would call transformational change in order to deliver it, and transformational change is hard. And I would say that colleagues are really feeling that at the moment, and it will take time for things to feel better, I think, before it feels like we're in a stable place as an organisation.

Thank you for that. 

Could I just add one thing, because you commented on the finances before?

Yes.

I think it's worth getting it on record here that we actually made a £24 million profit as WRU, and then we allocated £31.5 million, of that profit, to rugby in Wales. So, I just wanted to be clear that we used some of our reserves this year to actually make those allocations, and that was to support our community clubs and our professional game in Wales, to make sure that we could afford. I think we now both believe that our finances are more sustainable, going forward, because we have, for example, in the current year, looked at taking £5 million out of our cost base, and we're on track to deliver that. And I think, if you look at the world of rugby—and the two of us came back, a couple of weeks ago, from a World Rugby meeting—you see lots of rugby unions across the world all making losses. So, I think the stadium is a fantastic asset for us, it's a fantastic asset for Cardiff, it's a fantastic asset for Wales, and, obviously, a key part of our plan, going forward, is to make maximum use of that stadium to drive additional revenues into the game in Wales.

Okay. Thank you for that. Mick Antoniw wants to ask a supplementary question. 

It's a question, really, around culture change, because sport is basically reflective of society at large, and that's why the leadership role—

Mick, can I just stop you a second? We're having a little bit of difficulty hearing your sound. Could Mick's mike be turned up, please? Okay. Mick, do you want to try again?

Thank you. It's a question around the issue of culture, the measurement of change. People participating in sport are reflective of society at large, and that's why the leadership role of sporting organisations is so important. From what you've said, it's clear that there is a lot of change planned and change actually in progress. I'm just wondering how do you actually measure that change? How are you actually going to monitor and measure to see whether things are working and whether change is actually occurring?

Thank you for that. I'm going to hand that to Abi, because Abi and her team have been working quite hard on that very issue. 

Some of the things that we already have in place are that we now do monthly pulse surveys across all of the organisation to ask people how they are feeling about working in the organisation—do they feel enabled, do they feel supported, do they feel that the organisation is setting good direction? And we monitor those on a monthly basis. We have a good number of respondents, but, being honest, the results are challenging, but they give us an idea of where we've got to change and where we need to grow. We've also just done our annual engagement survey and have discussed that through our people, culture and governance committee, and we'll be sharing that with colleagues next week, again, to show what we're going to do differently to improve. 

The other things that we now report on a regular basis are things such as complaints. So, that wasn't done as rigorously as previously was done. So, we take it to our people, culture and governance committee and we see what the nature of those—. So, these are complaints internally by colleagues. Some of them are informal; some of them are more formal, such as grievances, and we monitor those. We see if there are some themes that we can learn from, and what it is that we need to do differently. We look at the different elements of them, and we are scrutinised quite heavily on that by the people, culture and governance committee, as well as the oversight group. So, hopefully that gives you—.

I would say as well, I think that culture is how people feel. So, you can have some of those proxy indicators. Some of the other things are staff turnover, sickness rates, looking at how many—. We actually had quite low sickness rates when I arrived and I realised that that was because people actually weren’t reporting. So, one of the first tasks was to make sure that we actually have robust reporting on those. That data now also all goes to the board. So, the board can see our people data on a monthly basis as well and also scrutinise us on that, making sure that we act on that data, and if what we’re doing isn’t working, we need to do something different and change. So, those are some of the things that we’re putting in place.

Thank you.

Oka. Thank you for that.

Diolch, Chair. Thank you for coming in this morning. I’m going to turn to some of the broader review recommendations for the women and girls game shortly, but, as you’d anticipate, I want to start by just asking about the recent reported serious failings in the contract negotiations and do you think they suggest that the WRU still has a cultural problem with women?

So, again, let me start by giving you some background on how we came into this. Around about the end of July, earlier this year, Abi phoned me and said there were some issues with the contract negotiations. And subsequent to that, on 8 August, a player group wrote to me on behalf of the whole board, indicating that they had some serious concerns about failings within the WRU. So, literally within a couple of days, I met with the WRU group, which had been negotiating the contracts with the women, and then I met with the representative player group, I think literally the same day as that. After that, I set off two streams of work. The first stream of work was to get the contracts done and signed. We were due to play Scotland on 6 September and we could not play that game if our women were out of contract at that point in time and did not have contracts, going forward, and clearly they were all rightly concerned by their personal positions at that point in time. So, that first stream of work, I asked—. It was clear to me that the existing negotiations within the WRU were not going as we’d hoped, so I asked Abi to lead that first stream of work and, actually, very quickly, Abi did get contracts in place with the women’s team.

The second stream of work, I suspect, is more interesting to you in answering this question, which is that I asked two board members on behalf of the whole board to do a detailed review of the contract process—so, not what was in the contracts, but the process itself. Those two people were Alison Thorne, who’s our senior independent director and has a lot of non-executive experience, and Claire Donovan, who has both an auditing background in terms of supply chain typically, but also has been a Wales international player with 75 caps and so would understand the player perspective specifically. In that review, they interviewed approximately 30 people and they then worked within the agreed deadline that we'd set out with the players to come with a first-draft report by the end of October, which we received as a board. We have then gone back to the participants who contributed to that review, and we thought it was right and proper that those participants should see what the report was reporting about—their contribution to the review. And that process is still ongoing, but very nearly completed. And I would expect that the final draft of that report would be with the board within a couple of weeks and, at that point, we would intend to publish the report in full.

Unfortunately, there was some—and I would say that this was—misreporting of the conclusions of that review by The Telegraph in particular, where they led with a heading of ‘sexism’. And the one thing that was not mentioned by any of the participants to either Alison or Claire was sexism. There were many failures, which I'll come on to talk about in a moment, but they were not to do with sex discrimination, in the view of that report, and as has been reported to us at the board. I'll go through a couple of the points, just so we're clear what you're likely to see when the report comes out. The first was that I don't think we as a WRU set out a clear process such that everybody bought into that process. So, we were not clear on the roles of individuals within that process, both from a WRU perspective nor, in particular, as to the people who the players thought would be representing them, and we weren't clear at the time that they were actually representing the players. So, there was a failure of setting up the process at the very beginning of this.

The second thing I would point to is that we had not fully appreciated the fact that we were dealing with a situation where we had players who were in a high-performance environment, but they were also contracted to the WRU as employees. Of course, our history is that our male players are actually contracted to the regional clubs, so we don't have an employment relationship with the male players that play for WalesFootnoteLink, and I don't think the WRU had fully taken on board that difference, and so, therefore, we weren't treating the women as employees to the full extent of that term, and that was confusing and difficult, and we were not fulfilling our obligations towards the women as we should have been doing at that point in time.

And then, finally, I think there were very different perceptions going into that process as to how successful the two previous rounds of contracting had been with the women. I think the WRU team went into that process thinking, 'Well, we've got some success behind us. We've put in place 30-odd contracts before, and that was good.' I think the women came into it thinking there hadn't been such a good process before, and there was a very different perception, which meant the way it was approached by both sides was very different in terms of the contractual negotiations. So, this was a failure of process on our part. It was a failure of leadership on our part.

And the final thing I'm bound to say about governance is that we have got Amanda Bennett on our board, who, during the summer, and before that, I think, had a strategy group overseeing the development of the women's game, and we had, as a board, agreed to put a new sub-committee in place to make sure the women's game got proper airtime before a sub-committee of the board and, therefore, the main board, and we agreed in our September meeting to put that women's committee in place, which was the natural sequence of a series of events, and that women's committee is now in place as a sub-committee. My reflection is that if that had been in place earlier, I think they would have interrogated the process better and we probably wouldn't have reached the crisis point that we did at the end of July and August, and that is my responsibility as chair of the board for not getting that in place fast enough over that period of time.

Can I pick up on the processes, then come back to leadership and culture? In terms of you saying there were issues, you acknowledged there were issues with the process, so have you had that similar experience in the past in contract negotiations, where one party has been given, say, an ultimatum of three hours to sign, and does that reflect the WRU's normal practice when it comes to contract negotiations, how you treat your employees?

Yes, so absolutely not, I would say. That was not something that I think should have happened and we've got on gone on record and said that. I think it's good to understand the context: there had been a process starting in January, and there were lots of misunderstandings during that process as to why we'd got to the place by the end of July and still not had contracts in place. But we absolutely should not have given the players a three-hour ultimatum to sign the contracts, and that would not be my understanding of good practice, and it's certainly not a practice which I want to see in the WRU.

Hannah, before you go on, forgive me, Rhun wants to come in on a supplementary.

The question I was going to ask was: you've made it clear to us that you believe you have taken significant steps forward in terms of changing attitudes towards cultural issues. Given that everybody's eyes were on you and the way that you were performing, and in particular, your attitude towards women within the organisation, do you need to reassess how far forward you believe you had come as a union in light of the failings that have again come to light over this?

Yes. I think we definitely reflected on that. And I don't think we were fooling ourselves up to that point either, if I may just say that. I think we recognise we have a long way to go from a cultural perspective. If anything, I want to pay tribute to the women players here, who, instead of what I think might have happened a year or so ago, going to the press with these issues, didn't. They actually came to me as chair of the board, and we listened to them. We have been going through a process of understanding their concerns, rather than just reacting at a surface level to them. They came to me and said, 'We want you to apologise, Richard.' I said, 'I'm sure I'm going to end up apologising, but I want to be real about that, and I want to understand exactly what I'm apologising for.' That's the reason why I asked Alison and Claire to do an in-depth review of what had actually gone wrong. We did have a meeting with the players a couple of weeks ago, and I was able in that meeting then to issue an apology on behalf of the governance side of it. Abi was with me, and she issued an apology on behalf of the executive side of it. So, I think, being fair, we have put in place some things that we think will impact the culture positively, but we clearly have not finished, and it's fair to say that there are still changes required with the WRU that we are in the course of making to improve that culture.

Thank you. Back to Hannah.

Just going back, it's demonstrated the need for that further cultural change, so, the organisation accepts the need for that further culture change. Would you say it's to do with individuals, or it's institutional, or it's both?

I'll have first go, and Abi, you can add to this. I think it's both. Why do I say that? During part of that process, some individuals were under a lot of pressure and they did things that I wouldn't normally expect them to do, and I think that the systems that we had at the time were not in place enough such that we would have spotted this. So, one of the questions is why didn't we as a board know about it earlier. Abi also asked the question why didn't she know about something going wrong earlier.

We have something across the organisation called Have a Voice, which encourages our employees to speak up, and I think, had we been doing that at the time with the women players, we would have heard at an earlier time about it. I'm not just trying to grasp a silver lining here, but I do think it's really important that the players came to us and, subsequent to that, they have come to us again and told us a lot more detail about what they feel is wrong in the organisation, and we now have that. We didn't have that before.

You can argue we should have been more open, we should have created the opportunity for players to come forward. We thought we were trying that, but it took this moment in time for us to receive that. It took that moment in time for the players to have the courage to come and speak to us about what was going on, and now we have that, we are in a place to actually deal with things in a way that we were not in a place to deal with prior to August. Abi, do you want to add to that?

I think you covered everything. This isn't meant to be a non-answer, but it was multifaceted and complex. You look back on it, and hindsight's a wonderful thing, isn't it, but there were various pivotal moments where things could have gone differently, and they didn't. One of the things that Alison and Claire say every time they talk to somebody about this is that nobody went into that process not wanting to do something that would improve the contracts for the women. So, everybody went in with the best intentions, but because of the things that Richard has described, tensions and frustrations arose during the process, and then, as a result, things didn't go as well. But I think it is really important just to flag that Alison and Claire are very clear that people went in with the right intentions.

The most important thing for me, as a culture and as an organisation, is I don't think that you'll ever be able to say that everything is perfect and nothing's going to go wrong. What's so important is how you respond to it in an open-hearted way, that you're willing to learn and are looking all the time at never being complacent. I think it's certainly brought both of us up short on that and has made us really reflect about the analogy somebody used with me: how do you hear the alarm bell before it gets to be a fire?

I'm new to a high-performance environment, and what's struck me is you've got a number of teams, whether it's your women's senior team, your under-20s, your under-18s, the same with the men's, which are almost managed quite separately from the rest of the business and the organisation. So, one of the things that I'm really trying to think about is how do we make sure that we can understand what those almost microcultures are within those teams in a way. And Rachel Brace has been really interesting on this from a Football Association perspective, because this isn't unique in the Welsh Rugby Union. The other thing we're trying to do as well is really learn from other organisations in high performance: how do you make sure that the team culture, which is actually at the heart of what you do as an organisation but is often a bit of a step away—. And it's quite an interesting challenge. Hopefully, that helps.

I have to say—and I mean this with the greatest respect now—I don’t envy your position, having to come in and turn this organisation around. I think there's a saying that the Chair will probably be familiar with in leadership positions and in politics; we've heard of the glass ceiling, but it's the glass cliff, where there's a tendency for women to come in at a point when an organisation or institution is at the precipice. So, I guess I've got a question for you: do you feel that you have everything you need and the support across the organisation to do what needs to be done?

Well, Hannah, that's a really good question. I was at a women in sport conference last week and, can you believe it, I heard the phrase 'glass cliff' for the first time at that conference. Somebody actually asked me that question, and I felt such an immense support in the room. I was on a stage with somebody from British Gymnastics and somebody from Snowsport and we were talking about the very similar challenges that everybody has been having. So, I feel the support in the wider sport ecosystem and the amount of people who said, 'We've been where you are; pick up the phone and talk to us'. Also, and I say this really openly, this is one of the best boards I have ever worked with, if not the best, in terms of the really good combination of support and challenge. Are there times when it feels really hard? Yes. But do I believe that I'm making a difference and that I can continue to make a difference? Yes, too. So, yes, the short answer is that I do feel that I've got the support I need, but it doesn't make it any easier.

Just one final question on the contract process itself and the review into that. I'm aware we're referring to more than one review, so I just want to distinguish what we're talking about. But the women's contract process, you said that was ready to be—. Will that be published in full and will that be shared with the players or the representatives in advance?

Yes, it will. The commitment we've made is to go back to the players and, if you like, fact check what they've said in relation to this, and we're doing the same with the other contributors to the review, as well. And then, when that process has been completed, our intention is to publish the final report when it comes to board. So, the board's seen it two or three times in draft, to make comments, to make sure we have clarity on both the findings and the recommendations, going forward. We have also committed to the players, by the way, to talk them through that process. This, to me, is maybe indicative of how sad the culture has been: do they trust the board not to change the recommendations as a part of that? We've been very open about that and we've said that we're very happy to talk through the changes that we have suggested at board level in relation to that, and they're only of clarification, so, 'What did you mean when you said this phrase?' Just so we can actually really hunt down what the root cause of the issue is and then clarify the recommendation that's been made. And I'll just say that Claire and Alison have done an absolutely amazing job with this, they've put a huge amount of time into it in terms of delivering this review. And I'm hopeful that that will be published in the next couple of weeks, yes.

And just to clarify, the players will have an opportunity to see it before—

They will. Absolutely. The players will see it before it's published. A number of parties have asked for that, so yes.

I'd expect that. Just going back to the broader independent review and the recommendations for the women and girls game, I think you said you were going to come back to it. What has now been implemented and what time frame are we looking at for the remainder of those recommendations that haven't yet been delivered?

I'm going to turn that one over to Abi, from an operational viewpoint.

On the women and girls game, as part of our five-year strategy, we have a specific pillar on the whole women and girls ecosystem, and we've invested and agreed to invest an additional £6 million over the next five years in that area. The big thing that hasn't been implemented yet that is so key to the overall pathway—and I'll come back to the things that we have done—is to have competitive professional teams in Wales. At the moment, the majority of our players play outside of Wales and play in the women's premiership. That is going to, No. 1, cost us money to do that, but, No. 2, and more importantly, we actually need a league in which we can play. At the moment, we play in something called the Celtic Challenge with Scotland and Ireland, and that is growing and it’s growing again this year, which is fantastic. But the aspiration would be to have a British league where we can play with the teams in England as well. So, that work is ongoing. It’s probably a couple of years away until that is in place. But one of the things I hear so much from the women players is they would love to play in Wales, so that’s the real goal. But we’ve continued to invest in all the other elements of the pathway, looking to grow, working really closely with our universities and our schools. Increasing our hubs is proving to be really successful. We’ve opened a number of hubs for girl and women players across Wales. We’ve got some really great stuff going on in north Wales as well on this, so lots of investment taking place. But until we get to the point where we can invest in those two teams, we won’t be able to say this is complete.

I think there was a point, wasn’t there, in the independent review recommendations around the funding for the women and girls game to be benchmarked and expressly managed based on data. Does that relate to what you’ve just been talking about?

Yes, it does. Gender-based budgeting is something else that I’m learning a lot about in the sport context, so really understanding how you invest in budget that supports the different genders and ensures that you are measuring the impact of that budget. We did, for example, even in the contracting process, and there’s still more to do to improve this, make sure we were benchmarking that, but also ensuring that we are investing. It won’t ever be, and this is the challenge for some time, able to be what you would call equal, but it can be equitable, and that’s the difference. That’s what we’re working hard to do.

In January 2024, Nigel Walker told the committee about the strategy for the women’s game and that you were very close to completing the strategy. When can we expect that?

The overall women’s strategy is complete. What we’re waiting to finalise, the last piece of the strategy, is actually the strategy with pro clubs in the regions for the men’s game. Once that bit of the jigsaw is in there, because that determines a significant amount of some of the rest of the strategy, we’ll be able to publish it. I’m expecting to be able to do that early in the new year.

Just one final question from me, Chair, if I may. I welcome that update on where we are with the strategy and the proposals for funding and that commitment. But going back to some of the headlines we’ve seen and the challenges that the organisation faces, do you recognise that—? I see where I live and across the country more young girls wanting to play rugby, but do you acknowledge some of those headlines and concerns around the culture may deter them? I just want to see what assurances you can give this committee that we won’t be back here in a year’s time having the same conversation that that culture change is going to happen. What we find with a lot of these things is there are often good intentions and corporate commitment, but you need more than that to actually achieve the change you want.

It’s what your colleague said about sport being reflective of society. Having two children who play rugby, that is one of the things that really saddens me. You want young girls who are thinking which shaped ball are they going to pick up to want to be attracted to the oval one, and you want them to feel that they’ll be safe, included and be able to thrive in rugby. I recognise that, for every headline, the impact of that on us reputationally is really difficult. But, and I will say ‘but’, I think it would be unfair for me to sit here and say that we won’t ever have any more headlines again, because I think culture change is a journey, and I think it’s how we respond to those headlines that is so important. I wish I could promise you. What I will do is promise you that I will absolutely work my hardest with my team for it not to happen. I think that’s, hopefully, a reasonable thing to say.

Diolch. Thank you very much. To return briefly to the financial situation that we did discuss earlier, you had mentioned, Richard, on the situation financially, that you feel confident that things will improve. Would your assessment be that the WRU is currently financially sustainable?

Yes, I think it is currently financially sustainable—I believe that's right—with the changes that we've put in place over the last six months to a year. A huge part of that is the potential new deal with the regional clubs, of course. When you look at our accounts, they're probably the biggest single recipients of funding from the WRU, and we are on course to produce that deal over the next, hopefully, few weeks.

Thank you for that. Is there anything that the Welsh Government, you feel, could or should be doing to help that continue, or to help you be in a more sustainable position in the future?

We're very happy with the support we get from the Welsh Government, and that's been really helpful on a whole number of items, whether it be some capital spend items, where we're investing in new lights, or whether it be to improve our sustainability as an organisation. At the moment, there's going to be an ongoing dialogue about the disastrous flooding that happened last weekend. We had over 70 clubs affected by that—five in a massively major way. Of course, that is something that we by ourselves will not be able to afford to do something about, so we are absolutely in dialogue with the Welsh Government about those five critical clubs, and, indeed, quite a few others, that have lost pitches, to see what we might be able to do together. Obviously, I know that no promises are being made, but it's things like that where—. Obviously, it's very difficult to get insurance on some of those places because of the, obviously, significant risk of flooding. But we have a good dialogue, I think, with the Welsh Government, and they've been very supportive of us.

Yes, Abi, certainly.

I agree with that. I think the other piece—. And just, actually, maybe going to back to the women's contracting process, the Minister was one of the first to contact us, and he met with Richard and I to understand what had happened, and then, also, he has met with the panel who led the review—Alison and Claire—and a good balance there of scrutiny and wanting to understand. One of the first calls I got—I actually got it when I was up at Cross Keys club, standing in mud—was from the team saying, 'What can we do to help?' So, they're very supportive.

Thank you, both, for that.

I would say it is—. Abi used a couple of adjectives there, which I think are important and sufficient. I'd say there's a balance of challenge, and there's a balance of support.

Where does the challenge come from? Where does the support come from?

Do you want to give a couple of examples?

I will. So, we work really closely with the team from an officials perspective. They always receive a copy of this review, and we'll go through it, where we are on the recommendations. More recently, we've actually been doing some collaborative work with the violence against women and girls team here, to understand what can we learn together, how can we support each other on that. So, we'll also think of collaborative work streams. I gave the examples of the floods. That's the kind of support, and it can be two-way. So, that's always really helpful.

And then I think also the scrutiny that comes—. As a national governing body—and this is also through Sport Wales—we have to make sure that we are meeting minimum standards across a whole raft of measures, whether that's around how we manage our finances, challenges on equality, diversity and inclusion, challenges on our facilities et cetera, safeguarding. So, that scrutiny comes in through Sport Wales, but overseen as well by Welsh Government. So, it is that combination.

I think probably a couple of years ago the relationship was one where the trust had broken down, and I would say that we have spent a lot of time trying to rebuild that trust by being really open, being transparent, saying when we're finding things difficult and where we need some help.

Do you want to tell us a bit more about the breakdown of that trust, because you always look at where problems have happened in the past to stop them happening again? What had happened there, and how did you manage to get around that?

I think it was around the allegations and so whilst they were then—. If I take Sport Wales and the whole process, and then the role of Welsh Government in that, I think the allegations felt like we had not lived up to the standards of a national governing body and they had to hold us to account for that. And therefore, as we hadn't lived up to those standards, the trust—. I think at a senior official level it took us some time to demonstrate that we were really committed to the change and to making it work. Some of that is about building those relationships, isn't it, and having those ongoing dialogues and having those ongoing conversations. Sorry, am I—?

No, that's fine. I wonder if that's an admission, in a way, that the relationship has been too cosy between Welsh Government and the WRU in the past.

It was before my time, so I wouldn't be able to comment on that. 

It has not felt cosy during the year and a half I've been there. It has felt appropriate, I would say, and Abi has given a lot of good examples there. Maybe just one final thing to say is Sport Wales fully participated with us in setting up the oversight group, so they definitely had a role in picking both the chair and the members of that group, together with Dame Anne Rafferty. Obviously, as we feel it, the board is the first level of accountability for the work that we do as the WRU, and, because of issues in the past, primarily, we have the oversight group. That oversight group was set up by ourselves and Sport Wales, and Sport Wales acting there, I guess, on behalf of the Welsh Government. So, it has felt appropriate to me.

And the financial relationship, I guess, between Welsh Government and the union itself is fairly limited. With Sport Wales on the delivery of grass-roots rugby you're spending nearly £1 million—£800,000—of public money, and it's important that you're held to account for that. But the relationship between the Government and the union is more around the COVID loans and that kind of thing. But, in terms of how the relationship would have worked around the most recent allegations, for example, would it have been a Minister picking up the phone to the WRU again, exasperated at the fact that you've found yourself in this situation again? Describe what would have happened around the most recent issues.

The dialogue is more ongoing, I would say, with the officials, so that we can actually give them a heads up if there are things that are going to be challenging. So, in this instance, when they were aware that we had this review ongoing, and they knew that we would be publishing that, and I explained that we would make sure that we offered a briefing at the right time, some of that was then brought forward because of the leak in the press in The Telegraph, which meant the Minister needed to brief sooner than that. So, we do everything we can to keep them briefed on any particular issues that they may need to be aware of.

That's interesting—you briefing a Government. I think it's really important that we have an opportunity to talk to you today, and we're grateful that you're here. Do you feel that scrutiny from Welsh Government Ministers, though? You're briefing them, but how are they challenging you over, specifically, this most recent issue?

I felt it was appropriate. I come from a civil service background, so I’m used to this kind of scrutiny, and always welcome scrutiny because I think you are better for it. It was certainly not a cosy—to use your phrase—conversation. 

Thank you.

Could I bring Mick in here, who wanted to ask a supplementary?

We've spoken a lot about Welsh Government and then grass-roots sport. What is the relationship like at local government, which is where many of the changes need to take place, really, with grass-roots cultures, to be effected?

I would say that it's one of partnership locally. I think when you go to clubs—and I've been to many, many clubs since taking on this job at the beginning of this year—the clubs are the heart of many of the communities, and I think local authorities really value that. So, I think they see the role of that and see us as a key contributor to inclusion, to well-being and to that sense of connection. 

I think the other really important bit that we partner with local authorities on is our engagement with schools through hub officers. So, we have nearly 100 hub officers out in our schools and communities growing participation and ensuring as many boys and girls are playing rugby in a safe and inclusive environment. We contribute some of the funding to that but the local authorities contribute a significant amount of the other. So, I think that partnership working is one that is welcomed. And I'm sure there'll be examples where it doesn't always work. But, overall, certainly when I've been out and I've met—. And often, I'll meet some of the officials or the elected members on the side of a rugby pitch, actually, and they always talk very positively about the contribution that our grass-roots rugby makes to those communities. 

Okay, diolch. Hannah. 

Thanks, Chair. Just going back to Rhun's line of questioning there in terms of I think you used the phrase 'cosy' or 'too cosy' relationship, I take what you said that it certainly hasn't felt like that to you of late. Do you think—and you might not be best placed to answer this because it was before your time, but if you're able to perhaps look into it for the committee—do you think perhaps in the past the relationship has been too close between officials of the WRU and Welsh Government, and there needs to be that—? I'm not talking in terms of financially, but around sharing information and briefing, and whether there needs to be that greater level of transparency and scrutiny moving forward. 

I think it's very difficult for us to answer that in relation to the past, because neither of us were here. And you ask us to look into it. I'm actually not sure how we would do that, if I'm honest with you, because lots of the people who would have had that relationship with the Government I imagine are no longer with the WRU. So, I can't just pick up the phone to the organisation and say, 'What was it like in the past?' I'm afraid. But I'm happy to talk outside this room if there's something specific you think we could do to help on that, but we just weren't there, I'm afraid. 

Can I just add to that? I think if it had been a major issue in terms of oversight, regulation and scrutiny, I think Dame Anne would have picked that up. So, Dame Anne Rafferty, who did the independent review, who comes from a really strong governance background, I think would have flagged it as an issue, and she didn't. So, that would be a marker for me that that wasn't a cause of issues and failings, but that would be a proxy measure, rather than being able to answer the direct question.  

All right, thank you. I don't see any other Members indicating they want to ask any questions. Can I thank you very much for appearing before us this morning? We really do appreciate it, because the WRU, it is an institution that is so close to so many people's hearts across Wales. Rugby has this very special place in our psyche as a nation. I think that the crises that have hit the WRU in recent times have been—. They've had a tremendous effect nationally.

I've been really struck by two things that you've said, Abi—that you acknowledge that you can't promise that there won't be further headlines, and we appreciate your candour on that. We appreciate how candid you've both been on that. And you'd also said, Abi, about how can you hear the alarm bell before it gets to be a fire. For any, particularly, young women or little girls who—. Okay, they're probably not going to be watching Senedd.tv today, let's be realistic, but any young women or little girls who might read about what's been happening who might be put off, when you say do they want to pick up a football or a rugby ball, who might think, 'Oh no, we'll go with this instead', what would the message that you would like to send to them be in order for them to feel that rugby is a space not just where they can be but where they will be welcomed and they can help shape this game and the culture for the future? 

It's a really good question, Delyth, and I'd quite like to spend time with all of them to say—. I think one of the—. The overarching message in our strategy when it's published is 'Rugby matters more here', and we've got some amazing videos as part of that. We've been collecting videos from people all over Wales talking about why rugby matters to them, and we have captured so many from young girls talking about the difference it's made to their confidence, to their friendships, to their well-being, to their mental health, how much they love being out there and feeling strong and feeling part of a team. And it gives you goosebumps when you watch some of these videos—particularly for some girls who have lacked confidence and have struggled with their mental health, rugby has actually really changed their lives. So, I really hope that, when people see some of these videos, that sense of that heart-warming—. And, actually, if you speak to our women players, the different—. And there's a brilliant bit in one of the videos by Jaz Joyce, who's one of our players, who's also a GB sevens player, and she just talks about what rugby has meant to her and why it matters more. So, I hope that, when that comes out, it will give us a reset and a chance for everybody, because it is in our heart, it is in our DNA, and it does matter more. That's what I would say: give it a go.

Thank you.

Can I just widen that, just on one thing, which is that we're also interested in women volunteering and being on the boards of our clubs, across the country, and being referees and officials at matches. So, there's a whole range of things that we would love to encourage. So, if you have played rugby, or if you haven't played rugby, and you want to join in, we know community clubs are often at the heart of those communities, and we need more women to be in the clubs. We are busy trying to ready our clubs to be—. And most of them, I think, are in a good place on this—receiving women, open to women, starting women's teams. There's a real push from us on that side, but we do need women to come forward.

I wonder, Abi, if you want to just say a little bit about the little girl you met yesterday, because that was a really heart-warming story for me, in terms of a very young volunteer.

It was actually Monday, at Cross Keys. So, I went to Cross Keys club. They had 4 ft of water in their club. They'd lost all of their carpets, their chairs, all their things from their kitchen, the pitch was completely covered. It had been a torrent of a river, basically, running through their club. And there was a young lady called Alaya—I hope she doesn't mind me mentioning her name—she must have been seven or eight, who was there with her aunt because her school had shut as well as a result of the floods. And she was covered—I think some people have seen her on ITV news—she was covered from head to toe with the mud. And she had been there since first thing that morning, sweeping out all of the mud because she loved her club and she loved the community. And I just thought, goodness me, that little girl's heart and commitment just captures what is amazing about Welsh rugby. And I know that, if I'd gone to some of the other clubs impacted, there would have probably been many more of those. One of the gentlemen, called Colin Vernall, who has been part of that club for years, had been there since 3 o'clock in the morning trying to rescue as much as he could. And it's that heart-warming moment that you just go, 'My goodness me, that's what makes Welsh rugby special—it's the volunteers.' It's not us two, sat here. That is why, when things don't go right, you feel like you've let people down, actually.

Thank you very much. And there is a final, final question, briefly, from Rhun.

If we want to see sport prosper, and we want to see women's sport prosper—. I've been a rugby coach for years, I'm football mad as well; I wish Wales women's football well—

Yes, me too.

We all do.

—over their forthcoming two-legger. What are you learning? You're part of a wider sporting ecosystem in Wales. What do you think you can learn from the Welsh football association, in terms of culture and women's sport?

Lots, and we talk to them a lot. Alys Carlton, the chair there, has probably been—you said about support—she's probably been one of the people who supports me the most when things are challenging. Some of the things that we're really learning from them is particularly their use of the Welsh language, I think, because that actually is something that so many young people want to see more of. So, we've been learning about what they've been doing there, and you'll see some of that come out in our strategy, learning about how they've built an inclusive environment, but also their performance. So, yes, we—. And, actually, we're also collaborating with Glamorgan Cricket as well. So, the three organisations are coming together to think about what we can do together to make an even bigger impact.

We've started a regular group, haven't we? We didn't initiate it, but we're very happy recipients of it—three sports coming together on a regular basis, chairs and chief execs, and trying to work out what we can do to work together.

Let's get a Wales cricket team out of it at the end as well, then. [Laughter.]

On that note—.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Bore da, bawb. Jack Sargeant, Minister for Culture, Skills and Social Partnership. I'll ask officials to introduce themselves.

Bore da, bawb. Ruth Meadows, I'm director of tertiary education, culture, heritage and sport.

Bore da. I'm Jason Thomas, director of tourism, marketing, events and creative industries.

Bore da, bawb. I'm Paul Kindred, deputy director for culture.

You're all very welcome back. I know a number of you were in front of us very recently. We'll go straight to questions, if that's all right.

Just before we—. Was there a failure with the translation there? I think that Mick is having some trouble.

I picked up most of that.

Can we check with Mick? Okay, sorry.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Firstly, I think I'd like to place on record my thanks to the predecessors who have held this important portfolio and all of the work that they have done, certainly in this Senedd term, where I am very much continuing with the work that they have led in terms of the programme for government commitment and the statutory duties around—just the examples of the programme for government commitments to celf and Theatr Clwyd, and I'm sure we'll perhaps pick up some of those points later on, Chair.

You asked about the difference in the approach that I may take and where the portfolio can help meet the First Minister's priorities, the four priorities of the Government, well, the position I will take as a Minister is perhaps a unique one. My background is different to other Ministers who've held this post in the past, so I very much will bring the problem-solving skills, which I've picked up from my background in manufacturing of solving problems daily, into the role, where we will always try and seek solutions to issues, very much with the focus of social partnership, which is also within my responsibilities. So, joint solutions to common problems, and bringing that very uniqueness in the approach that I will take. I'm also very keen to make sure that the ambition and the energy from the sector is in all of the work that I do, and in all of my team's work as well, because the workforce within the wider sector is really driven, passionate and ambitious, and I think that needs to be matched from me and everyone else who is in the team.

Where it fits into the First Minister's priorities: so, we know, don't we, that for every £1 we spend in the arts, £2.51 comes back to the economy, so there is quite clearly a link there. Around health and the priority of iechyd da, good health for all—well, I think there's a real case. Some of the stuff the Welsh National Opera are doing around the long COVID issues and the breathing and the appropriate measures to do that—I think they were in the Senedd just a couple of weeks ago discussing their wellness programme—I think that's an example of where we get this right in that field. And I'm really keen in the space of mental health and where the portfolio can shine on that. So, the example that I point to is the work that I'm interested in doing around sport and the role that that can play in mental health, so that then will support the First Minister's priorities.

There are lots of other examples. Education is an example. Amgueddfa Cymru and all of the fantastic work that they do, I think—after the education system themselves, they then step up to the plate and become an education provider on their own. And just pointing back to the economy and connecting communities, if you think imaginatively about connecting communities, access to the culture and arts and sport is crucial for me, particularly around working-class communities. We can connect communities in a way, through the arts, in a different and unique way, I think, which is positive.

The final point on the economy, because Jason’s sat next to me, Chair, as I mentioned just a number of weeks ago in the statement: £26.5 million investment from Creative Wales and the Welsh Government into the creative industries, production and film and tv—£313 million back into Welsh spend and the Welsh economy. That success is something we need to build on.

Thank you very much for that. Is it a matter of regret for you that there have been so many aspects of the programme for government that related to culture that either have been diminished or have been dropped?

So, I think I'm very focused on the delivery aspect of what we can achieve here. We've been through lots of challenges, haven't we? I think we had the inquiry just two weeks ago where we discussed at length the impact of reductions in budgets and why those reductions in budgets have happened. So, it's probably inevitable that some things have not progressed in the way that Members would have liked to have seen. But there are successes in this portfolio, and I think we should talk them up.

I'm very ambitious for the future of this sector, and working collaboratively. I think I've met with opposition spokespeople, both in the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru, where I've said, 'Look, when I finish with this portfolio, whenever that is, it needs to be in a space where whoever takes over next—'. I'm very hopeful that it will be Labour colleague after the Senedd elections; some other people will not think that way. But if it's in a position where it's different, they can feel comfortable about where the culture sector and the sport sector is. So, I think we've had challenging times, but I'm proud of the work, particularly the workforce, and the way they have responded to some of this. We have to have an ambition for growth in the sector, and that's where I am on this.

Thank you for that, and it really is so welcome to hear the ambition that you have for the portfolio. The reason I was asking about the programme for government commitments is because those had been set in the backdrop of the pandemic, which in itself was a very challenging time. And given the fact that there are Governments who have chosen, at a time of financial hardship and financial stress, to invest more in the arts and in sport because of exactly the kind of preventative qualities that you've been setting out yourself—. Given that context, is it your hope that some of these areas that have been diminished—would that be something that you would like to see reversed, that overall picture of culture and sport always being the things that get cut, and that you'd like to see that trajectory changed whilst you are in post?

So, Chair, I think you're testing me really early on ahead of the budget round in a few weeks' time. I think, as I said a couple of weeks ago, the Cabinet Secretary for finance, I'm sure, will be watching exactly what I say in this committee and elsewhere, so I'm not going to go down the route of committing to what future budgets would be like. I think I'll repeat what I said a few weeks ago: no Minister, within any Government, would have wanted to make the decisions that they have had to make. Those decisions were made on the back of a pandemic, as you referenced; the inflationary pressures that have hit everybody in Wales, including this sector; and, again, 14 long years of austerity and difficult choices, where the impact was very real across a number of sectors, wasn't it, and the arts did feel that very much so.

I think, in the first answer I referred to all of the bits where this portfolio can add to the First Minister's priorities. I think we see the value. Where we invest in this sector, we get a good economic return, but we also get a good return in the other ways of looking at things, so the well-being for the nation being one of them. Of course, we'd all like to see increased budgets, but we have a better settlement this time with the new UK Labour Government, but that one budget won’t resolve all of the issues that we’ve faced over a number of years now. But I’ll perhaps refrain from staying more in anticipation of the budget. I’ll be watching with anticipation, as you will.  

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Bore da, Gweinidog. You mentioned your predecessors, Minister, and, in September of 2021, the previous Deputy Minister told this committee that she was absolutely committed to creating a cultural strategy and setting out her priorities and ambitions for all the complementary strategies for the creative industries, the historic environment and Visit Wales. So, do you still intend to develop those complementary strategies?  

Well, Chair, I’m very grateful to be questioned by a former sports Minister on the screen today, John Griffiths, and I should pass my thanks to him, as well, for all that he did in this portfolio, and his commitment ever since to the sector.

The comments of the previous Deputy Minister are ones that—. We are all bound by the future generations Act, which does have a goal of a vibrant culture and thriving Welsh language across activities. So, that’s not optional, and we all work towards that. I think, on the strategies more broadly in other areas, there’s the draft culture strategy, for which I’m hoping to be able to be able to publish the draft summary of responses to the consultation very soon, and then I’ll be saying more about the priorities for the culture strategy in the new year. We have a priorities strategy for the creative industries already. We have priorities for the historic environment and the visitor economy as well.

So, I think the role of the culture strategy, when that’s published, is very much to work interlinked, and to be referenced closely to all of the things that we’re already doing. So, we do have priorities out there already, and I’m committed to making sure we deliver on those priorities rather than creating new strategies for making new strategies’ sake.

Just following on from the questions about the creative industries, this is an area that’s been under enormous challenge since post COVID and events in America as well, with industrial action. A large number of the people who work within the industry are freelance. A large number of those, according to reports, are, and remain, unemployed. Yet this is one of the sectors that not only is internationally competitive, it is one that has enormous opportunity in terms of contributing to the economy, towards growth, and so on.

How is that being measured? What is the strategy now in terms of the interlink between support for the creative industries and the actual creation of wealth, jobs and opportunities within Wales? Many of the developments in creative industries rely very heavily on bringing in skills and people from outside Wales, which can sometimes be counterproductive. I just wonder if you can perhaps outline a little bit about how you envisage that part of the strategy developing, but also, in terms of the employment side, specifically, skills within Wales. The area has obviously had—. Contributions have obviously been reduced. But it sounds as though the industry is now beginning to emerge again. What are the opportunities for Wales in particular that you envisage within that strategy?

Thanks, Mick, for that. There are lots of opportunities for growth in this area. I highligted production of tv and film: £26.5 million; over £313 million spend in the Welsh economy. So, that’s the success, but that’s a starting point, isn’t it, and that’s where we want to grow.

The freelance community—we rely very heavily on the freelance community in that sector. It is, just by the nature of the sector, a global thing, and we do go on to support the freelance community in all of the things that we do through Creative Wales, and through some of the other channels as well.

The point on skills and growing skills—well, I think there are a number of things that we're doing through Screen Academy Wales, and I was delighted to be able to visit Bad Wolf studios in Splott, with Councillor Stubbs and Councillor Thomas from the local community, to see the things that they're doing in the local community to make sure that there are jobs available, that the opportunities are there and that the skill sets are there. So, they are doing some great work on that.

Another example, Mick, of where we support the industry is through the Hijinx programme. It's fantastic, and I'm happy to send information on the Hijinx programme, because I think it's a really good programme where we are going to support more people, and particularly how we then support people who are disabled within the industry, which is an ambition that we all want to see achieved as well. Perhaps I'll ask Jason to talk a bit more about the opportunities in front of us on the creative side. 

Thanks, Minister, and thanks for the question. I think just quickly to say as well that we welcome that recognition of the importance of freelancers in the sector. Just briefly, to go back to COVID, Wales and Welsh Government, we were the first Government in the UK to support the freelance community through the cultural recovery fund that we put in place at the time. We actually put in place a specific freelancers fund, which really was the lifeblood for the freelance community, and we were able to protect so many jobs through that. It's very much a part of the sector that we recognise and want to support. 

I'll just briefly mention the strategy, and this comes back to the previous question. We very much have a strategy and priorities in place for the creative industries, and, really, it's five things. It's about growing the creative sector through targeted support, regional and sub-sector support; the second one is about developing the right skills, as the Minister mentioned; the third one is about raising standards and ensuring that the sector is more diverse and has equality underpinning it throughout; the fourth, really, is about simplifying funding, making sure that we can respond to the sector quickly; and then the last priority is about taking a lead role in marketing and promoting it to the world and having a very clear Creative Wales brand. So, those are our priorities for the creative industries, and we've been delivering on those for years now. And, as the Minister mentioned, that, in part, has led to the fantastic statistics that were released a couple of weeks ago. It's a sector that's doing really well. Thank you.

If I could just follow on very quickly, in order to find out what is really happening on the ground, particularly with things like freelancers, but with the industry generally, you need to talk to the people who work in that industry and carry out those functions. BECTU, obviously, represent quite a number of people within that. What are relationships like with the trade union? What sort of engagement is there? Is that something that could be improved? Does it contribute towards the strategy that's being produced? 

There are two parts to that question. I think that we do have a relationship with the trade unions in the room, but there's always room to improve on that, isn't there? So, the priorities that Jason just talked about through Creative Wales, I think the important part of the next step is making sure that those priorities and that strategy are very much interlinked with the culture strategy. What I'm keen to see happen, when I publish very shortly the draft response to the consultation on the priorities for culture, the next stage of that as I develop the final priorities in the new year, that relationship with the trade unions, I want them to play a big part in how we shape that, as the work evolves. So, I think that Mick raises a good question on that. There's always room to improve the worker voice in this sector, but we do have a good record to say that we do have the conversations already. But, yes, there's more to do, particularly around culture and trade unions. I've met a number of trade union representatives over recent weeks—the NUJ a couple of weeks ago, the PCS just this week, and conversations around what culture means with the TUC, officials are having those conversations now as well. That's all valued work. I think Ruth might want to come in on the point.

Yes, just quickly. I just wanted to pick up on the elements around home-grown talent and trying to create those skills. And just to note, really, I suppose, how well the further education and higher education sectors have responded to the needs for skills in this area: just here in Cardiff, some of the facilities and the courses that are available through Cardiff and Vale and through USW, the University of South Wales, and really having that outreach into schools, but those really close connections with the production and wider creative industries. So, we're seeing that real pipeline, people being aware that those options are available and also seeing that they can actually do that learning locally, which I think has worked really, really well.

Thank you.

Okay, diolch. Oh, yes—.

Just briefly on trade union engagement as well. So, I certainly remember many, many years ago, when I was first asked to lead on creative industries, reaching out to BECTU at the time. And it was a difficult conversation, because they said, 'We don't really believe you're serious about engagement with us.' I very much said that we were and that led to a completely different relationship going forward. And what we've done over the years is—. In many ways, we went before, really, this became legislation around social partnership, but we committed to ensuring that we'd have trade union representation on our Creative Wales board and that’s what we did. So, we had a BECTU representative on the board when the board was created, Siân, and she did an incredible job there, raising the voice of workers, rights. And now we have Andrew from the musician's union, who sits on our board as well. So, this is something we will always passionately believe in.

Yes. So, Minister, we will have a culture strategy; we will not have the complementary strategies that your predecessor was minded to take forward, and you've said that the priorities are out there and will be out there. What can we expect to see in terms of performance measurement? How will stakeholders, this committee and others, be able to judge whether you are successful or not with that culture strategy and everything that sits within?

I think the mechanism for those scrutiny measures will be what they are now. So, the ways of this committee in scrutinising my performance and the performance of the sector in general will be very much a part of all of that. That will be against the priorities that we've mentioned already. We've talked about the creative industries priorities, but there are priorities for the historic environment as well. 

I think the point on culture—. Well, the national indicators also show measurements against the culture sector. What that looks like in the future against the new priorities for culture strategy, well, that's all in development, John, and if the committee had a view on what that might look like, then we'd be minded to consider some of that. But I think the general scrutiny and measurement of performance will continue in the way it is. If that can be strengthened in a way, then there is opportunity to look at what that might look like in the next phase of the priorities for culture.

Okay. Minister, you mentioned your problem-solving background before coming to the Senedd and one of the issues you will have in terms of the well-being of future generations goals, which you've also touched on, is how you will work with other Government Ministers and Government departments across the piece to contribute to the sort of cultural health that we all want to see in Wales. Have you set about making sure that those relationships are in good order and can be strengthened and deliver to a greater extent?

Thanks, John. Perhaps, Chair, I shouldn't have raised my background of problem solving, but there we go, I've said it now, so—

Too late, you've done it now. [Laughter.]

Yes. No, in seriousness, those conversations do happen, don't they, and they are happening. I think the most important part of those discussions at the moment is around the budget and where we will make the case for the arts and culture and sports sector. Going forward, though—. So, when the priorities for culture are published, that will have Cabinet sign-off. So, I will be having bilaterals with all Cabinet Ministers about the role that their departments can play in the priorities for culture going forward. That's not to say that that doesn’t happen already, because it does and we do have good relationships indeed, but there are lots of things where this sector covers a broad variety of responsibilities, if not all responsibilities, across the Government. The priorities for culture that will be released in the new year will have Cabinet sign-off. I'm looking forward to taking forward my proposals to Cabinet and having the scrutiny from them, getting sign-off, publishing that document and working together to strengthen the culture sector. What I think you have in the First Minister is someone who absolutely believes in all that this sector can offer, and I think that really does shine through in the First Minister and what she wants to achieve, and having that support is obviously very welcome.

Just one further question, if I might, Cadeirydd, and just following up on that, Minister, the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales has said that he believes there is a need for a long-term shift towards keeping people well across a wide range of public services. I think that, again, is something we'd all sign up to. Is there anything in particular you think you might be able to do within your portfolio to support that objective?

We all agree, don't we, with the future generations commissioner's comments around shifting to that longer term vision and outlining that approach. The difficulty we've had with that over recent years is that we've not been able to set budgets over a longer term period. I think we all would have liked to do that. I've sat in committee sessions for many, many years now, and I think on pretty much every inquiry I've probably said, 'A multi-year budget would be the right approach', and my opinion hasn't changed as a Minister. How we get to that space is the next important part, isn't it? And I think we're in a better place now with the UK Government and their settlement and how they respect devolution compared to perhaps the past.

I'd like to think the ambition is there to set out those longer term strategies and the funding to go alongside that. I think that will take longer than just one budget from the UK Government. If there are areas in which we can work together more closely with colleagues in the Welsh Government, perhaps over preventative measures—I'm thinking about health and other areas—then of course, I'm keen that we would always look to do that and be making the case to do that. I think there are some things we perhaps may be able to do and we are doing. The wider approach, I think, where the future generations commissioner is getting to is a good ambition to have; the practical steps of getting there need a little bit more time.

Diolch, Rhun, for the question. I think it's important, isn't it, to set the context of where those reductions came from and the reasons. So, we had a very difficult period. The inflationary pressures that we all faced, the long, long period of austerity that happened over 14 years, the pandemic, and all of those challenges, it was essentially the perfect storm that hit the sector, and no Minister would have wanted to make the difficult decisions that they had to make. I think there will be impacts, of course, on all of the sector because of the reduction in funding. Amgueddfa Cymru and how they responded to those impacts, I think, was very welcome. They implemented their Shaping our Future restructuring programme, and that is very much focused on making sure that participation is not affected as much, so there's a mitigation of some of the impacts that we might have seen, and that was a welcome step there in trying to manage that difficult period.

But more generally, if we look at access, the ambition is further than that, isn't it? It's not just mitigating the access that was already there; actually, we need to look at the access to culture for some of those people who haven't accessed the sector before. So, I'm hoping now when we look to the future, with partners in Amgueddfa Cymru and right across the sector, we'll be able to do some more work about how we address the access problem. So, there has been an impact, but the context of that impact and why that's happened is also important.

I don't have the figures to mind. I'm happy to go away and look at that for you.

Sure. So, I think it's a really important question, isn't it? The arm's-length principle is there and we have to respect the arm's-length principle, that the governing bodies are there to make those decisions. I think I've set out today and in other forums that one of my key priorities for this sector is about access. The trials that Amgueddfa Cymru are looking at, I've asked for an assessment of what that actually means. If you look at the Big Pit trial, which is, I think, probably the one that you're referring to, the initial feedback from Amgueddfa Cymru is positive, it's a positive experience that's happened. What I've gone back to them with and my officials have gone back to them with, to have this conversation, is, 'Okay, that's a positive experience that you're reporting back'—and we'd be happy to try and share some of that with you, so that you can see—but the question that I've asked is for them to do more work around lower income families, pensioners and people who perhaps don't have access in the first place. Paul might want to come in on this, but it's a really interesting—. The role of the Government—. Respecting the arm's-length principle, but we have to make sure that access is for everybody. So, if there was a need for appropriate intervention, then I'd be open to seeing what that might look like, but I think we need to wait for the data before we do that. Paul.

I think we touched on this when we were with you very recently, as well, this whole subject area. So, since we last saw you, I've had some direct discussions with the chief executive of the amgueddfa and several members of the senior team, about the importance of collecting the sort of data that the Minister was just talking about, in terms of the people who, perhaps, are not going through the door at the moment and not attending exhibitions, and whether any of these trials, which are really important in terms of the diversification of revenue generation for the amgueddfa, especially in the current economic context you just alluded to, whether any of those charging mechanisms are potentially barriers to participation, which is the opposite of where we'd like to be, obviously. So, my team are in touch with them today, funnily enough, and I've asked my head of research and evaluation also to work with them to ensure that they can look at as many mechanisms as possible to try and collect really comprehensive data on this whole area. And we can certainly come back to you at a later date on that.

Thank you.

I'm not going to make that commitment today. What I'm prepared to do is look at the data, which Paul's described, that we've asked for. I would need time to consider what that data actually shows before making any commitment of that level, also respecting the arm's-length principle. So, the Big Pit is one, but you mentioned a range of options that they have done. Look, we have set out—. Amgueddfa Cymru and others will have to look differently to the future, won't they? So, there's the data that I would need to consider before making any sort of commitment like that, and it would have to be an appropriate level of intervention, respecting the arm's-length bodies, so I'm not prepared to give that commitment.

So, I think that we do have a close working relationship with those partners, in looking at their commercial income. This is the important part, isn't it, where we want these institutions, which are incredibly important to the nation, to be sustainable for the future. Them becoming sustainable commercially is one of the ways of making sure that that happens. So, they need to explore all of those options, and we will be ready to support them in that. We are doing that.

Amgueddfa Cymru, in particular—. Part of the £940,000 package that was announced for them in September has gone to some of that work. It has gone to supporting them to help explore those commercial options and support staff and training. So, that's an example where we have had direct intervention to help them explore opportunities. We will go on supporting Amgueddfa Cymru and others—the national library and others as well—to try and make sure that they are sustainable for the future. Paul, did you want to come in?

Just to say that it's also worth saying that we have supported the amgueddfa with capital funding as well, for things like the equipment that they needed to get the Vulcan up and running operationally in St Fagans, and for contactless collection on site. We have also worked really closely with the library as it has been setting up its new directorate, which is focusing on its new fund-raising strategy. So, there are a lot of things that we do in direct support of our arm's-length bodies in this space.

Thanks. Just one thing to add: quite clearly, for the museum and the national library as well, one of the simplest ways, in many ways, to increase your commercial income is to have more visitors through the door. We have a role to play there. We are responsible for Visit Wales. We are responsible for marketing our nation to the world. We know that international visitors spend more than domestic visitors. We know that our biggest domestic market is England, by a considerable margin.

So, the more that we can do to bring people into our country, the better it will be for the bottom line of those institutions, because people will visit them—we know that—when they come. So, what we have done is we have made sure that culture is one of those things that we promote when we promote our brand to the world. We have had some really good success on that. 

Thank you.

I'm grateful for the promotion, Rhun.

I withdrew it. [Laughter.]

Well, you won't be the only one either. [Laughter.] It's an important question, isn't it? I do agree. To tackle those issues, we need to look more broadly at what we can offer as a Government. The biggest part of that is the budget process that is happening now—so, discussions that we are having internally, which will obviously remain internal. We will see the outcome of those discussions in the draft budget, but we are very much making the case for this sector and what it can achieve.

So, if we get the capital right, for example, then the sector strives, then all of the well-being things that we have discussed already will be in place as well, won't they? So, I think that the biggest part of that challenge at the moment is the discussions that we are having in Cabinet. We will see where we get to on that. But, as I say, it's not just the Minister making these calls. The First Minister is very ambitious for this sector. I think that everyone can see that. There is a need for collaboration in Government. The priorities for culture, as I said, will be signed off by Cabinet, and everyone will have a role to play. Practically, those discussions will take place, and that’s what it’ll look like.

One last question about the development in Llanberis and the gap of, I think, £3.2 million that there is in the project there. What are the plans for closing that gap?

I’m aware of the gap. Firstly, isn’t it great that we have been able to support the site in Llanberis? I’m aware of the gap that is there and the importance of trying to find a way of closing that gap. We’ll have conversations in the budget. I wouldn’t be able to go into budget discussions, but I’m aware of the gap that is there, and we’ll work hard with them to try and find solutions to it.

Okay. Diolch.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. You touched on the creative industries in response to an earlier question, and I think it’s very much been held up as a success story for Wales and the support of Welsh Government. You talked about Bad Wolf, which is one of the ones that always comes to mind in terms of actually how that has showcased what can be done in Wales to the world. So, just more broadly, but I’ll turn to some more specifics afterwards, what more can Welsh Government do to make sure that success is felt outside of Cardiff as well, and to link that, perhaps, Minister, with your role on skills too, so those opportunities to invest in home-grown talent and to make sure we see that spread in communities across the country too?

Diolch, Hannah. As two fellow north Walians, it’s incredibly important that every part of Wales feels the success of and the potential growth of the creative industries, isn’t it? Cardiff is very much a hub for the creative industries. You mentioned Bad Wolf, but there are many other examples, Seren Studios just down the road as well.

One of the most pleasing things when I took the post over the summer was visiting the filming of Madfabulous in north Wales. Across the country, what we do have to offer is we have the production facilities perhaps in Cardiff where they make the excellent things that they make here, but all the stunning scenery that the country has to offer. That is being realised by Madfabulous, as one example.

I also went on a range of visits in Caernarfon to see some of the things that are happening there in the creative sector. Cwmni Da, for example, are doing great work there. Then, closer to home, there's the role of Wrexham University and the skill set that they can do in the games industry and how they support them. There's Coleg Cambria in the e-sports space; I think they’ve invested over £200,000 in a brand new suite, which is a state of the art facility.

I’m very conscious that there’s always more to do, and the companies that we’ve talked about are also, in the conversations that I’ve had with them, keen to look out to other parts of the country as well, and I think the scenery particularly and the landscape of our country really does offer us to be in a great position. House of the Dragon is another example where, in north-west Wales, on-site locations were filmed. That is one of the biggest programmes in the world being filmed from north Wales.

Thanks. You mentioned video gaming. I should confess, Chair, that my talent for video gaming ended with Sonic the Hedgehog. I’m showing my age now.

Mine was Crash Bandicoot.

You mentioned the investment in it and how that links to those opportunities such as Wrexham University and the like. There was analysis from the University of South Wales that the Welsh video games industry is currently underperforming compared with other regions of the UK. But, likewise, they also said there are significant opportunities to grow. So, what would your views be on that?

I’m not sure I share the view of the University of South Wales that we’re underperforming. I think we’re performing very well and we’re punching above our weight in the areas where we are. Again, Rocket Science in central Cardiff is a huge company. In Penarth, the games company Wales Interactive produce one of the best-selling games in the world, which had a big link to the history of Wales as well, which is brilliant. So, there are examples of where we are getting this right. I don't think we are underperforming; I think we're punching above our weight.

I think the point about growth is the point to focus on. This really is an area where there is great potential for Wales, and I'd like to see us do more in this space. It's a conversation I've had with Creative Wales colleagues about how further we can support the industry. So, we do do work in this space. The new—Jason might have to correct me here—scale-up fund, I think it is, which was announced this week, is about supporting the industry from just after start-up—how they get to that level of production.

Is there more we can do? Well, I'm very open to having that conversation. I think Rhys ab Owen asked me a question yesterday—. It's nearly Christmas, Chair; it's been quite a long few weeks. I think it was yesterday where Rhys ab Owen asked the question about the Development Bank of Wales, and the role that the development bank can play. I think that's a conversation that needs to happen. We will be willing to have that conversation, and will be having that conversation with the development bank, exploring every opportunity, where we can, with the sector speaking to us as well about what are the gaps that they need to be filled, and we'll try and support that as we much as we can. 

The Minister was correct, there is the scale-up fund that we've launched. That's funding that companies can apply for—between £50,000 and £150,000—to help in that stage of their evolution. One thing we recognised was that we had funding there at start-up level, but gaming companies in particular needed support when they got past that start-up phase, then into the next phase. The evolution of a game can take a very long time, so that's why we've put that in place. We've set aside £500,000 for that fund. The response from the sector has been really strong, so we do anticipate that we'll have more demand than we have in the budget, potentially, this year. But we'll certainly look at that. 

And then, just one other thing I was going to briefly mentioned was I do think it's important for us to recognise that, when we set out the priorities that I mentioned earlier—those five things that Creative Wales would prioritise—I mentioned in there that we look at sub-sectors. I think, in the early days of Creative Wales, we didn't go sub enough when we looked at sub-sectors. We said 'digital,' and digital is a more broad classification, which encompasses gaming and encompasses immersive, other wider digital projects. I think now we realise that gaming really is a such a powerful sub-sector in its own right, that needs more attention. We've been really fortunate to have, again, some brilliant people on our board. We had Dai Banner from—

Please forgive me. I'm so sorry. I'm really aware that we're so short of time. If you could send that information to us in writing, that would be great. Forgive me, Jason, I'm sorry about that.

That's okay.

[Inaudible.]—very supportive of Jason in that work as well.

Thank you so much. Forgive me. Sorry. Hannah. 

Thank you. I'll make it brief, Chair, don't worry. 

Sorry, I always get to this moment and I start to panic.

I think you touched on it, actually, when you talked about the scale-up funding and the various schemes that are available from the Welsh Government to support the video games industry. How do those schemes focus on different growth stages of businesses, whether that's early stage, or then to scale-up as well, or to create additional employment or opportunities as well?

I think the scale-up funding touches on that—it does what it says on the tin, essentially. It's there to take them to the next stage. I think the work that we do through Games Talent Wales in Wrexham University particularly helps the very early stages of that development. Those are just two examples of where we are helping in this sector and getting it right. But going to back to the earlier question, I think there could be more that we could do in this space. It's a conversation that we will look at in Creative Wales about what we can do, but it's also a conversation with partners that we need to have as well. So, the Development Bank of Wales is one about—. I'm really keen to hear from the industry about where we could help further, and then looking at the best approach to that. I do think it's a conversation with the development bank to take place. I also think there's a further conversation with colleagues in the UK Government around some of the things here as well. We are helping the start-up phase and the scale-up phase. Is there more we can do? I imagine the games industry will tell me there is. We will look and consider all of that. I’m grateful for the committee's interest in this particular area, Chair.

Just one final question from me. I don't envy your work and the work of this committee, because culture is so vast and covers so many different things, and actually we should look at the other side of that. We're really lucky in Wales to have such vast cultural opportunities and things that you want to protect, preserve, promote. But at the same time we know the immense pressures on public finances as well. So people might ask how do you balance that off, or trade off the economic rationale, to support gaming versus, perhaps, the benefits of other Welsh cultural representation.

It's very important, isn't it, that we get all of this right. When we look at the creative sector, the investment that we put in has to have an economic case behind it, because some of these productions are very large sums of money, but the return for spend is very good as well, and in doing that, whether it be gaming or the film and tv productions that we’ve already discussed, they will have to have an amount of Welsh spend. On the point on gaming, I think I mentioned the game Sker Ritual in all but name earlier, the best-selling game from—

We went on a visit to see all about it.

So the Chair will have seen the links to Welsh culture within that game. I think that's an example where we've got that right. But we have a proud history of our culture and heritage across Wales. I think in all of the things that we need to do, including making the economic case for that, it does have to reflect the importance of the sector to the nation. I think we're doing good work on that. That's a good example. There are many other examples where we can pick up on that case, but it's ever so important to the country and to me as the Minister that our heritage as a nation is reflected in the creative future as well.

Thank you very much. It's 'Calon Lân', isn’t it, that's being played at a very frightening moment of that game? Calon Lân as you've never heard it before.

Could I ask you about the current situation with the national contemporary art gallery project. Do you think that where we're at at the moment is in the spirit of what was set out originally in terms of the feasibility study? Because there's not going to be ongoing revenue funding committed from the Welsh Government, and the fact that there isn't going to be an anchor site, do you think that this still represents a national contemporary art gallery?

I think it does. I think the challenges of the anchor site and all of those things have been rehearsed many times, and I perhaps don't have anything further to add on that from what previous Ministers have said. I'll go back to the point of access, and accessing culture. I think the dispersed model of the Celf project is a model that will provide access into communities that perhaps wouldn't have had that in the usual way. So I think it does reflect the ambitions of the feasibility study. It might not be all there, but I think it does reflect the principle of what we're trying to achieve.

Just yesterday I met with the chair of the project board, Mandy. If you haven't met Mandy, you should. She brightened my day up. The experiences that they are already delivering through that—. So, there's an exhibition in Aberystwyth where communities that wouldn't have had the opportunity to do that went and picked a famous vase from the gallery. They made their own version of that, which was a little bit different, but they were telling their stories because of what they'd seen and the access they'd had in Aberystwyth. Well, isn't that fantastic? Would that family have gone through the door in the usual way? I'm not sure, and that's what it's all about, isn't it? I'm aware there's the exhibition in Newport in the early new year, maybe February, Chair. We can definitely check on that. The committee should go and see some of this work, because I think that will prove the point around the ambition of Celf and where it goes next. And as I say, if you haven't met Mandy, you should. She'll brighten everyone's day. Ruth might want to come in.

Just quickly to add as well about the digital access through the contemporary art gallery project, there's Celf ar y Cyd where we've made available significant amounts of work online as well, so we're trying to give different models and different accessibility channels for people to be able to access all our national treasures. 

Thank you. 

Just very quickly, the timing of the forthcoming exhibition in Newport that you spoke about is still to be finalised but it's certainly in spring next year, but like the one in Aberystwyth that the Minister spoke about, it's a really exciting example of some creative thinking by the galleries across Wales to engage the communities and have the communities and artists based in the communities lead on interpreting the national collection and getting it out close to people, making it accessible and relevant to them, and having actually the communities drive how they access it and what they want to see. A side benefit of that will no doubt be that they'll be more interested in the rest of the collection that's housed in the institutions that we're trying to drive access back into as well in their sites, as we spoke about earlier on. So, yes, there's some fantastic stuff going to be happening next year around Celf. 

Thank you very much indeed. It would be remiss of us to have a session and not to mention the current plight of WNO, which we've raised with you before. What are the current discussions that you either have had or that you are aware of having taken place either with the WNO directly or involving unions? Are you confident that what is currently being proposed will not—? Well, are you worried about the state of the WNO? I'll put it like that. 

So, I think the WNO, as we all understand, is going through some great difficulties and real challenges. I'm hopeful that we can overcome some of those challenges. We've rehearsed, I think, before, perhaps, some of the reasons why the WNO are in the place that they are in. The conversations that need to happen are with the trade unions. It would be remiss of me to go into details of those conversations that need to happen with the trade unions about industrial action or the future of the discussions that they are having. I've made it very clear to the WNO, to the Arts Council of Wales and to the trade unions directly that the future of the WNO and what that looks like needs to be done with the workforce and in social partnership. So, I am hopeful about those conversations. 

The outcome of where we are—. So, I think I said in the last committee session that I'm aware—. The announcement of £5 million in September from my predecessor for arm's-length bodies in the industry—the Arts Council of Wales got £1.5 million of that. They went through a process, then, of asking for expressions of interest and then final applications. I'm aware the WNO have put an application in. They expressed interest, they've put an application in, and there will be—. There is consideration that is going on through that. That's the Arts Council of Wales arm's-length body process. I'm very hopeful that there will be an announcement on the outcome of that process overall in the near future, and we'll wait to see if that alleviates some of the issues then. But I think further conversations between all parties will need to be had in the future, as we want the WNO to—. Again, it's another very important institution for Wales, and we want it to not just survive but we want it to thrive. So, very happy to continue those conversations with them. I think the role of the trade unions in this is incredibly important. 

Thank you, and I know that members of the committee will be gratified to hear you saying that you're keen for those conversations to go on, because a lot of campaigners and musicians have expressed concerns, I know publicly, but to members of the committee as well, about the current plight. 

Just on that point, Chair, to be absolutely clear, the early conversations I had in this post were about the issue of the WNO. So, I would categorically deny that I am not taking this issue seriously. I'm not saying you as Chair or the committee have said that, but I would absolutely deny that we're not taking this seriously. We've had those conversations with the WNO directly. We've had conversations with the Arts Council of Wales. I've had conversations with the Equity union, the Musicians' Union and UK Government Ministers on this issue. We are taking this issue seriously. And, as I say, I want those discussions to carry on in the future.

Thank you for that, Minister. I know that Laura, by the way, had sent apologies earlier because she was having some very serious problems with traffic, I think. I know she would have liked to have asked some questions about sport, so I'm going to cover those questions for her. But Mick would like to come in before that.

Just very quickly on the WNO, I'm grateful for some of those comments, Minister. The WNO, as well as being an institution that has to work through problems, has an iconic role, doesn't it, for Wales? And it is very important in terms of the perception of Wales in the world. Do you agree with me that failure is not an option for the WNO? It has that particular role, and are you confident that that can be achieved?

Thanks, Mick, for that. I think I'm very clear in where I want the WNO to be. I don't just want them to survive, I want them to thrive. I think we need to get to the outcome of the application that they've put into the Arts Council of Wales first and see where that takes us and leads us to. But I'm very clear, as the Member points to, that failure is not an option here. It's a globally renowned institution of Wales, one that we should be proud of, and one that we want to support in that way. So, I don't think I can go as far as giving that assurance today, Mick, but I think I'm confident in saying that we're absolutely committed to the cause.

Okay. Diolch. Thank you very much for clarifying that. We have received apologies from Laura, and we hope that all is well.

I do agree with that assumption—you're right, Chair, to make the assumption that I would agree. How do we do that? So, there are different ways—some of the challenges that we've spoken about and opportunities around budgets, and where perhaps money can go into the preventative spend of the health agenda, perhaps. Some money does go into that already, but if there is further work that we can do on that issue, then we should look to be able to do it. That's my position on this. There are direct examples of where this does happen, through my budgets and Sport Wales, where we invest in facilities. And the FAW, again, do really good work, and I hope to see their work continue in the future around the Cymru Football Foundation, and perhaps the legacy of Euro 2028. Where we invest in sports facilities, we know participation increases, and we know that participation in sport offers a way to a healthier nation. So, there is that. I think the role the whole portfolio can play in terms of well-being and mental health is crucial.

I'll just pick that point up, Chair, in relation to sport. So, Welsh Athletics have a good programme, where they've trained mental health first aiders in athletics clubs across Wales. My local grass-roots club, Connah's Quay Town Football Club, have also done the same, in response to losing one of their players to suicide two years ago—and he just so happened to be my best friend of 20 years.

I'm very sorry.

I think there are lots of things that we could do in that space. And I'm grateful for the supportive comments of the Chair. What I'm keen to do is, if that is a tool in which we can do something positive from that sad story, which is a story of mine, but there'll be stories of many people across Wales who have a similar background, and it does happen far too often—if we can use that as a way to do good, then why shouldn't we do that? And that's where I'll be driving the portfolio.

Thank you, Minister. Oh, Jason, would you like—?

Very briefly, just to mention, I guess, the power of events and promoting sport. I completely agree with those comments about sport and physical activity being a preventative tool. I mean, next year, we've got the AIG Women's Open golf in Wales. It will be the largest female sports event ever to take place in Wales. What a great opportunity to promote golf to the world, and the Minister probably knows that I won't let a meeting go past without mentioning golf and its benefits. But then also looking further ahead to Euro 2028, where the eyes of the world, really, will be on fixtures to be held in Wales, and we can use that as a platform to promote participation to everybody in Wales. So, just another nice example of joining things up.

Thank you very much for that. And, Minister, we truly do—I'm sure I speak on behalf of the committee—extend our sympathies, again, about that very sad loss. John would like to come in.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Yes, it's just to pick up on that point about sport being a very powerful tool to improve health and well-being—sport and physical activity. I know the Minister is very committed to helping lower income families and those struggling the most in particular, and I think sport can be even more powerful for those families. Some of the issues are about cost, aren't they? If we take grass-roots football as one example, I know the FAW and others do a little bit to help with coaching fees for grass-roots football clubs, and the cost of kit for children and the cost of the fees to be part of the football club, to go to training and play matches. But I think there's an awful lot more that could be done in the more deprived areas to ensure that there is comprehensive help of that nature, not just for football, but for other sports and physical activities as well, and I'd just be interested in the Minister's thoughts on that.

A cheeky plea for it to be as brief an answer as possible, please, because we were keen to just raise one other area, in the time?

Sure, no problem. So, I agree with John Griffiths on that very point. He's right to point to the FAW and the work that they do. There are other organisations—I can't remember off the top of my head, John, but I'm pretty sure, perhaps, netball do something similar, maybe the Welsh Rugby Union as well. Chair, I'll get a note to you on that.

Thank you ever so much. Before I come to Rhun for the final set of questions, I'm aware that time is very much against us; we're nearly through with time. There were a number of other areas we had hoped to raise with you. Would you be content if we wrote to you with those further questions?

Absolutely.

Thank you very much.

Yes, just briefly around broadcasting and media policy, can I just ask you if you continue to support and are keen to pursue devolution of broadcasting, and how would you like to see Welsh Government using broadcasting powers differently, were they devolved?

Diolch, Rhun, for that. So, I certainly agree that the current way that broadcasting and communications are in the UK is certainly inadequate and does need looking into. I'm very open to having further conversations with stakeholders on this topic, to help shape my view on where we go with this. It's a—. As I say, I think the starting point is that the current position is adequate, but I'm keen to open up the conversation with stakeholders and have their views. I'd also, Chair, be very interested in the committee's view around broadcasting in general and what the future looks like.

Developing could mean not devolved or it could mean devolved. Government has been bound to pursue the case for devolving broadcasting powers. Are you saying that you're taking a step back from the position taken by previous Ministers?

No, I'm not saying that; I'm saying I think all options are on the table for my view. I don't think I'm rowing back from anywhere, I'm just keen to open the conversation up to get that wide engagement from stakeholders, to be able to form my view more fully.

Previous Ministers have been looking at this in some detail, of course, and—

They have, yes. They have. I think I want to take the time as well to make sure we get this right, because it needs to be right, doesn't it?

And I assume, therefore, that you, given that you haven't come to a personal position, haven't had conversations with UK Labour colleagues about potential devolution of broadcasting at this point.

I haven't had those conversations yet. That's not to say I wouldn't have them in the future. The work around forming a view is important for me, but I haven't had that conversation with colleagues in UK Labour yet. I'm happy to have those conversations. I'm sure I will, going forward. As I say, I'm keen to hear from stakeholders, and particularly interested if the committee has a view on this area. I'm always open to hearing those.

But you accept that the Labour Government as a—. I hear what you’re saying about your own position, but you accept that the Labour Government, as a whole, previously had been committed to pursuing the devolution of broadcasting and were therefore committed to it.

I accept the position of the Government, of course, and I don't think I'm saying that I'm against the devolution of broadcasting. I think I'm saying I'd like to do the piece of work around that to form my view and to see where we take this conversation next.  

What kind of work is that going to be?

Well, having the conversations with key stakeholders, hearing if the committee has a view. Ministers in the past have had that. I want to have that as a Minister myself.

You've got quite a lot on your plate. There are only 18 months until the next election. Are you expecting to be able to address this in that 18-month period?

There is a lot on my plate, you're right, and I've had some immediate issues to attend to, the WNO being one of them. I'm conscious of the need to address the point the Member makes, and I will be picking those conversations up before then.

Just one last question. I'll declare an interest here as a member of the National Union of Journalists, who have engaged with the committee on this issue. When will Welsh Government respond to the Wales public interest journalism working group’s report, which was published last year?

Diolch, Rhun. So, I met with the members of the NUJ, last week I think it was, to discuss that very report. I'm conscious that the Government hasn't responded in a formal way yet. I will be looking to do that in the new year. I can't give you a set timeline, but I'll be looking at responding in some way in the new year. One of the conversations, which I think the Member will be interested in, which I had with the NUJ—. So, the working group that did the report, I think that is a valued partnership there. I'm very keen to be looking at a refreshed terms of reference with the working group, and very much a focus on delivery on some of the items. Jason, did you want—?

Only briefly, just to add that we've been working on a number of actions that are already set out in that report over recent months. I was particularly struck—. I was at the Wales Media Awards a couple of weeks ago, where members of the group were really appreciative of the secretariat support that we've provided for this. So, as the Minister mentioned, we're going to continue to work with the group, refresh those terms of reference, and then we'll, obviously, get some advice up to the Minister, in terms of a more formal response to that report, as soon as possible.

Okay. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you.

And very briefly—I know we've only got a minute left—your written evidence includes a section on Wales-Ireland relations. That's something of particular interest to us as a committee. Could you explain, please, how the new Cabinet is working on the refresh of the Wales-Ireland shared statement? Previously, it had been in the purview of the First Minister to be overseeing that work. Is that still the case, or is that something that has changed, please?

So, the First Minister did her first overseas trip to Ireland as First Minister. I think that sets, very much, the tone of the importance of our relationship with Wales and Ireland. So, I'm pretty sure the First Minister is overseeing that work. If she's not, I'll clarify that particular point. But the importance of those relationships with our partners in Ireland and our friends in Ireland is ever so important. The First Minister was there to discuss I think it was the Wales-Ireland forum, if my memory serves me correctly. It’s an important relationship. We look forward to strengthening that relationship with them. I'm very grateful—. I’m aware, Chair, that you and the committee have been in Ireland a few times, and I’m very grateful for your interest and the work that you do promoting Wales and our relationship with Ireland on that stage, and it's always nice to have a pint of Guinness in Dublin. [Laughter.]

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Sticking with financial matters and financial accountability, to what extent have current pay pressures been resolved as a result of the additional funding from Welsh Government in-year, and could you say a little bit about the pay pressures ahead?

Diolch yn fawr. And I wonder if you could expand a little on the £38,000 overspend on officers' salaries for the current, or, rather, 2023-24 financial year, and how that relates to your long-term decision not to appoint into certain vacant roles.

It's 2023-24, I think.

Also, I'd be grateful if you could help the committee to understand better how expenditure on programme costs doubled, compared to spending on additional programmes the previous year, and just to say a little bit about the value and impact of those programmes in terms of increasing use of the Welsh language.

Perhaps I could ask just one further question, Cadeirydd, on the new case management system that was developed in 2022-23 and was to be operational by 2023-24, and just to understand why you are now considering alternative options.

Thank you. A few questions, really, about the use of Welsh and the rights of Welsh speakers. But, just before we get on to that, how do you see the current position in terms of the numbers of Welsh speakers? The figures seem to vary from pre COVID to post COVID, the methodology, people who feel confident in identifying themselves as Welsh speakers, as opposed to Welsh speakers who perhaps don't feel so confident. What would you say the general picture is in Wales at the current time?

I'll come on to a few issues around that in a minute, in terms of the default use of language and so on. But, from your evidence, the proportion of Welsh speakers who think that the Welsh language services of public bodies are improving is important. Equally so, though, there is a very low percentage of Welsh speakers who actually expressed their preference to use Welsh with such bodies. As I understand the figures, some 17 per cent of Welsh speakers surveyed during the period noted that they preferred to use Welsh with public bodies, compared to around a third before the pandemic. What do you think is happening there, and to what extent is your office and the measures, I suppose, impacting on people's confidence to use the language?

Thank you. One of the—

Forgive me, Mick. I think Heledd just wants to ask a supplementary, and then we'll come back to you. 

Okay.

Thank you. One of the challenges, of course, is when looking at statistics in terms of access to public services in Welsh, it's very much on a one-to-one basis, but, of course, the survey that you did also showed that one in five of the respondents had said that they'd been prevented by someone from using Welsh in the past year. I suspect that may be where people are engaged in more than a one-to-one situation with a Welsh speaker, where you have someone who isn't Welsh speaking, and therefore the default naturally goes to English. Bu, I just wonder if you could perhaps give your understanding of what those figures actually mean, when people say they've been prevented from using Welsh. What are the circumstances? Do you have any ideas as to what the primary causes of that are? Because unless we understand that, it's difficult to work out how the actions that you take and others take actually can tackle that.

As well as confidence, though—. Sorry.

Sorry. Please.

Just one final question, again in terms of understanding direction and the data. As well as the issue of confidence, of course, the issue of motivation to speak the language is important. To some extent, among Welsh speakers, is there an issue that there are those who speak Welsh, either because they have been taught it in school or because it is their natural community language, and it's just sometimes easier, or they can't be bothered—? Motivation, it seems to me, is a fundamental part of people wanting to use the language. How do you tackle that within the power and resources that you have, or what do you think should be being done in order to progress that?

Thank you.

Well, just that there are countries with very large numbers of speakers, but where the languages are very much under threat. I give Ukraine as one example. Ukraine now has a language ombudsman, and I think there may well be very interesting lessons to learn there, because the issue of default use of language and the impact of larger cultural pressures is something that affects many places, well beyond, perhaps, our comfort zone of the Celtic countries and smaller nations. So, it may be that there's some interesting—. Well, I know that there are some very interesting measures being taken in terms of language that may well be worth exploring.