National Assembly for Wales

Thank you. I'm Lesley Griffiths. I'm the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and Social Justice. I'll let officials introduce themselves.

Kate.

Hello. My name’s Dr Kate Roberts, and I’m Cadw’s chief inspector of historic buildings and monuments.

Lovely to see you. Thank you. Paul.

Bore da. I'm Paul Kindred. I'm the divisional deputy of culture division.

Thank you. Joedi.

Morning. I'm Joedi Langley. I'm the interim head of Creative Wales.

Lovely. Neil.

Morning. I'm Neil Welch. I'm head of sport.

Lovely.

Thank you. I think it’s a very good marriage, if you like, between culture and social justice, and I really want to embrace the possibilities. I have to say I’ve been very impressed, with the visits I’ve been to, in this sector, how they’re already embracing social justice. Just yesterday, for instance, I went to the National Dance Company Wales across in the Wales Millenium Centre. To see the work that they’re doing in the social justice area was really impressive. I have to say it’s been like that on many of the visits I’ve been on in the past three months—that widening participation, making sure that children and young people, particularly from deprived backgrounds, have access to the arts. Health, education, well-being—they're all very much part of it. So, I think it's really good to be able to harness all this and bring the two elements together. It is a very large and diverse portfolio. Three months in, I'm still wading through it. Yesterday, I was just looking at all the Ministers that had been announced in the UK Government. I've got 11 that fit in my portfolio, so you can see how diverse the portfolio is for one person. I think it is about using every opportunity that we have to make sure that arts and culture are enjoyed by absolutely everybody in Wales.

Thank you for that. With the very challenging financial situation that we've got with the budget, with a lot of the cuts and reductions that the Government has chosen to make, how are you marrying up, or how are you able to fight for the priorities for the culture part of this portfolio, in light of those cuts?

Obviously, I inherited a very reduced budget. I was part of that collective decision, as a Member of the Government, so, when I came into the portfolio, I knew the significant cuts that had been right across the portfolio, but particularly in the culture, media and sport part of the portfolio. But it became very apparent very quickly that many of the organisations were facing challenges. Now, I didn't realise, when I came into portfolio, the state of the roof of the National Museum Cardiff. I think it was Heledd Fychan that first mentioned it to me. That was one of my very first visits, because you may remember there was quite a lot of noise in the press about the concern that it could close, and I've been very clear that it's not going to close on my watch, and I will do everything I can. I met with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Cabinet Office. They know that we are going to need some funding. I've put out a written statement this morning about how I'm reprioritising funding from within my portfolio to make sure that we can address emergency repairs as quickly as possible at the national museum and at the National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth. So, those discussions are ongoing. I met with the Cabinet Secretary for finance again yesterday, so they're very aware that there is funding that I need to try and access. I'm having conversations with other Cabinet Secretaries, because, again, I didn't know that the national museum, or Amgueddfa Cymru, is the second largest provider of education, after schools and colleges, in Wales. So, you can see they're providing a huge amount to our children and young people, and on health and well-being, so I've had conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care to see if there's any specific funding I can access there. 

You'll be aware of the Welsh National Opera challenges. I've had conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language, because, again, they're our biggest global export. So, this is very much across Government, to see what Cabinet Secretaries can do to help me.

Thank you for that. Heledd wants to come in.

Yes, thank you, Chair. If I may, obviously, it's breaking news for us, just before the committee started this morning, in terms of that reprioritisation of budget. Can you outline to us what's not going ahead, then? Where has the funding come from? And can you clarify that it's capital funding? Is there any additional revenue funding being found, because, obviously, in terms of safeguarding jobs, it's not just about the roof of the building; it's also the expertise of staff? So, if you could clarify that for us.

It is capital funding; it's not revenue funding. The jobs aspect is a separate thing, and I'll come to that in a moment. It's not just about the roof, but that is the immediate concern. I've never seen so many buckets as I saw catching water in the national museum—it was horrific. And the work that they've done to make sure none of our national treasures are affected is excellent. It is capital funding.

You'll be aware there were two programme for government commitments—they were part of the co-operation agreement— around a national contemporary art gallery. That part of the work is being progressed, but not the anchor gallery, so that's the bit where the funding is coming from. And also a museum for north Wales, which I don't think had been progressed very much, and I'm not going to progress it any further at this moment. It doesn't mean they won't happen, but, at this moment, they're not going to be progressed. There's also a risk that I'm carrying within my main expenditure group to find that funding, but you'll know, Heledd, that, from the discussions I've had with both the national museum and the national library, they really needed money this financial year to make emergency repairs, and that's what I’ve wanted to do.

Can I ask for a point of clarification as well? On this museum for north Wales, it's quite confusing, the evidence we've had about this since the Senedd election in 2021. My understanding was that the museum for north Wales was the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum, and that they're the same project, not two separate ones, and that, at some point, they've been defined as two different ones. Are you able to clarify to us what your understanding is, and also is the commitment to the redevelopment of the National Slate Museum still something that you're hoping to be able to realise? 

Yes, absolutely. The commitment for the National Slate Museum is still there. When I came into portfolio—and, of course, I've been north Wales Minister as well—like you, I was never very clear what we meant by the national museum for north Wales. So, for me now, it's absolutely around the National Slate Museum in Llanberis, where I've been. I've managed to split a slate myself, so I've been able to put that on my curriculum vitae now. I think that is just going from strength to strength, but the commitment for that is absolutely there.

On the national contemporary art gallery, again, we're doing it through Celf ar y Cyd, and that is really progressing well. It's just the physical building for the anchor gallery, because I don't feel I can put money into a new building when we've got buildings that need repairs in the way that they do.

Thank you.

Before Heledd carries on, Carolyn wants to come in, and then we'll come back to Heledd. 

Just regarding the museum for north Wales, again, there was a little bit of confusion, so I'm glad that that's been clarified by you. But the investment's still going ahead for the football museum in Wrexham, and Theatr Clwyd. I know that they've had substantial funding, and we're very excited because they also bring in the social justice element. I've had a look at what's happened so far with the changing rooms and toilets, and there's going to be an area for mothers and toddlers, and people from different backgrounds, and they do a lot of outreach work as well. But I know there was a little bit of an issue regarding funding. Extra funding was needed because of inflationary pressures and things like that. It's maybe the same for the football museum—I just read the note quickly. So, as well as the slate museum, those two commitments are still final, and are they still happily going ahead?

Yes, absolutely. They were, obviously, both commitments that were in place before I came into portfolio. But, obviously, I'm the Member for Wrexham, so I know that the football museum is progressing well. I'm hoping to visit Theatr Clwyd over the summer recess, but I've been there in a private capacity, so I know that that's going well. I haven't been asked for any further funding as yet for either of those two projects, so I think they're living within their budgets at the moment. If they come to me, unfortunately I haven't got any more money. As I said, for me, the two priorities at the moment are getting those immediate emergency repairs to the roofs of the national museum and the national library. Officials have been working very closely with both of those organisations to come forward with a business plan, because significant millions are going to be needed to fully repair, and we'll work with them to make sure we get that business plan.

The contemporary art museum was going to be a hub-and-spoke sort of model. So, that's not going ahead, you said, with the anchor, but it will still go ahead where existing museums can still have pieces of art under that umbrella title of being a contemporary art museum.

Yes. We've got nine, and somewhere in here I have a list of the nine local galleries, museums that are already hosting exhibitions—there we go; Paul's just found it—right across Wales. So, they're already hosting exhibitions. We're carrying on with the digitalisation. So, if you go on the—. I don't know if anybody's been on the Celf ar y Cyd website lately, but the feedback I've had—. I sent my mum on it, got her to have a look at it and give me feedback on it, and it's very, very popular. We're getting a lot of hits on it, and I want to carry on digitalising our national treasures on there.

Thank you so much. Lee briefly wants to come in, and then we'll go back to Heledd. 

Yes, just to to clarify, and Celf ar y Cyd, I must say, is new to me, but, looking at it now, it is very good indeed. So, you're clearly in an invidious budget position, and I think you're right to literally fix the roof. So, I think that is a sensible judgment. But, it seems to me, wouldn't it be better to embrace the fact that the national contemporary art gallery is going to be a spoke and not a hub, that the dispersed model is actually a good model with a digital arm, and let's forget about having a base of its own because we simply can't afford it in the foreseeable future, and similarly with the museum for north Wales, as Heledd said, let's clear the muddle that there are going to be two separate things. There's not going to be a separate museum of north Wales; there was never intended to be, from what Heledd said. There's noise in the system. Well, you'd better just say, for clarity, that, as a separate concept, is dead, as is the separate hub for national gallery, and we are now having a redefined idea of what these commitments are.

Yes, that's absolutely the position at the current time. And certainly, when I came into post, obviously, we still had the co-operation agreement, and I had a few chats with Siân Gwenllian and Cefin Campbell around that. And I think we all recognise that we already have these amazing institutions and organisations, and that's the way forward. I hope you'll give me some feedback on Celf ar y Cyd as well.

You can rely on me.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I note in your statement this morning as well that £0.5 million has been allocated for local independent museums and archives. Can I ask in terms of what will be that process? Have you identified projects for those, or is it a fund being available for those to apply to? 

Yes, where they can apply. I don't think we've gone out for bids yet, have we? 

No, that's right. 

Okay, thank you. It's just helpful to have that clarity. You said you'd return to the revenue aspect. I wonder if you can clarify to us—you've got the capital aspect in terms of improvements, but in terms of revenue funding, and obviously it's a very serious situation, we know that redundancies—

Oh, yes, sorry, I said I'd come back to the jobs. 

—are ongoing. But in terms of staffing, obviously, we've heard from unions in terms of their concern at the national library, the royal commission, the national museum, as well as throughout local museums and local libraries in Wales. So, can you perhaps clarify in terms of that revenue situation? 

So, I don't have any more revenue. I'm obviously very aware of the job losses; we had voluntary redundancies that no-one wants to see. I've met with the trade unions. I've met with the trade unions a couple of times now. Clearly, there are concerns about, particularly, specialist skills being lost. Unfortunately, because of the budget, I don't think they had any option. As I say, I will carry on pushing for further funding. We don't know—. Obviously, the new UK Government's only just come in, but if there is any opportunity to have further funding in this space, I will certainly be pushing for that. And once I start meeting with Ministers—I mentioned there are 11 of them to work through—I think it is important that they understand. And certainly, I don't think that was the position before, but I'm hopeful that with a new Government, we will be able to make some progress. And the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Constitution and Cabinet Office understands the position that I am in, and, as I say, I meet with her regularly; I met with her again yesterday to push for some further funding. But, at the moment, I don't have any extra revenue.

Thank you for that clarity. Of course, you mentioned earlier in terms of the education aspect. Celf ar y Cyd as an educational resource is wonderful as well. I just wonder, in terms of those discussions, I presume what you're hoping is that there may be funding from other portfolios, potentially, because, obviously, having these resources, you still need staff to be able to train teachers, communicate to teachers what the resources are, or welcome school groups to sites and so on. So, is that your thinking currently in terms of future budgets, that you hope to see that cross-governmental understanding leading to an increase, hopefully, in revenue through different avenues?

So, I think we have to be very honest that all portfolios have got budget challenges. However, I've had very positive discussions with my Cabinet Secretary colleagues. I'm having bilaterals with them all over the summer recess to discuss a variety of issues, because if you look at my portfolio, a lot of it is very cross-Government, so tackling poverty, for instance, as well as the issues that we've just been discussing. When you look at how much our health organisations—. For instance, Welsh National Opera, they work with health and well-being. I mentioned the WNO as a global export, so I've had a very positive discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy, Energy and Welsh Language. But there might be small pockets of funding, but I think, going through to the discussion for next year's budget, once we know the comprehensive spending review as well, those discussions could intensify a bit, but everybody's obviously protecting their budgets. But I think we have to be realistic about the value that we put on culture and arts.

Thank you. If I may just ask a final question for now, from me. We're obviously in a period now where the culture strategy is being consulted upon, the money had been repurposed to protect jobs rather than for the delivery of the cultural strategy for this financial year. Going forward, then, what's your understanding of that gap? Because, obviously, that funding was mitigated, that the cuts weren't as significant—how concerned are you in terms of the financial position? Because that funding has meant a huge shortfall in terms of revenue funding, how are you going to mitigate the kind of impact that could potentially have been, which would've been even more disastrous than it has been?

So, if we think about it realistically, we're out to consultation now—the consultation doesn't close until 4 September. By the time we've had all the consultation responses in and we've come forward with an implementation plan, it's going to be next year. So, I'm hopeful that I haven't got to worry too much about that in this financial year. Until we know what comes out—. Because I don't know what's going to come out of the consultation and, I think, when we discussed it, Heledd, you will have heard me say I wasn't sure that it was the right thing to do, to go out to consultation, but I was persuaded, even with all the financial difficulties and the fact that the consultation document had been changed, prior to me coming into portfolio, on the back of the significant financial challenges, it was the right thing to do. And, certainly, stakeholders told me that we hadn't had a strategy or a refresh of the strategy for a long time—a new strategy—and it was absolutely the right time. But I don't know what's going to come out. So, if I'm honest, you tend to worry about things that are happening today—those are the things that keep you awake at night. Let's see what comes out, let's see what the implementation plan is. We will have to cut our cloth accordingly, like we've had to right across Government.

Thank you.

I thought I was down for the arts, so that's fine. Where are we up to, then? Oh, okay. Are we not asking questions about the future generations' well-being, because I—? Okay. I will ask a question about the future generations' well-being, if that's okay, because I think we've dodged around the arts a little bit with those questions.

Going forward, we've had discussions about how we're going to ensure we've got young people coming forward who are interested in arts and creative industries, so I'd like to know how we promote, basically, what jobs there are out there. We're having quite a lot of—. There's a lot of negative publicity about issues with the arts, about the music service, and funding it, but we cover quite a lot, don't we, as creative industries, so how do we promote what jobs are out there, what's going on? You know, we've got the theatre, we've got new studios popping up, I hear. You know, I hear it, I'm not quite sure what's happening and what's happening joined up. Of course, there are the universities as well. We have the National Music Service for Wales, going forwards. We visited the gaming industry recently as well, so there are lots of jobs, but how do young people know how to connect to them and what's out there? So, I don't know if that's something for Creative Wales as well to answer?

Well, Creative Wales isn't in my portfolio, but certainly within my portfolio there are lots of opportunities. You heard me mention earlier that I went to the national dance company. I have to say, I knew very little about the national dance company before I went yesterday. I didn't know, for instance, if you want to do dance at a degree level, you have to go out of Wales. So, we've got the Royal College of Music and Drama—for me, that's a perfect fit. Why don't we teach dance there as well? So, I promised them yesterday that I would have a discussion, which I haven't had yet, with Lynne Neagle, to see if there's more we can do there, because we know, don't we, once young people go away to university, often they don't come back. I've got one that did and one that didn't, so we know that often happens. So, if we can keep them here in Wales, that's really good. 

It's like anything. I remember when I was in the food and drink portfolio, there are so many jobs within that. People think of chefs, maybe, or food producers, but there are so many—I think 0.25 million jobs are in the food and drink sector—and it's the same with arts and culture. So, it's about making sure that young people are aware of what they can do. Again, going back, because I was there yesterday, it's very fresh in my mind, the work that they're doing, particularly in deprived areas, working with young people to make sure they know what they can do within the space of dance, for instance. So, if you think about it, we all move, don't we, and that movement, to see the classes they were doing, was really excellent, and that just sows that seed. But it is really important. Again, we work across Government, so I will be having that conversation with the Cabinet Secretary for Education. And, of course, it's all the other jobs that go with it. So, yesterday, I met the sound engineer, the lighting engineer—there are so many different jobs in the theatre. But, unfortunately, we don't seem to do much in our universities here, and I think there is definitely scope to do that.

Promote and joint it up—that would be really, really useful. So, we've discussed priorities regarding funding for the arts and a reduction in funding, so can we just go back to the national contemporary art gallery project? How will you be promoting that, going forward?

Well, I just mentioned about Celf ar y Cyd. So, that to me, now, is what we must be promoting. I was disappointed to hear Lee say he hadn't seen it before, because we are having a big push on the digitalisation of our national treasures. We've got 100,000 that aren't on display in any museums. That's a huge amount, so the more we can get onto the digital platform, the more people have access to them. I know not everybody's got access—some people are, unfortunately, digitally excluded—but that will just bring those items to the public so much more. I mentioned the nine local galleries and museums that are already hosting many exhibitions, and that's in every part of Wales.

Perhaps our museums could actually promote in other areas as well, because if you're interested in the creative industries or history, some of those cross over. So, I don't know, just thinking of ways to publicise it to the wider public would be really useful. We touched earlier about the WNO as well. Have you had discussions with the Welsh College of Music and Drama about the future of work with young people, going forward?

So, the college sits in Lynne Neagle's portfolio. I know she met the principal on Monday evening about it and, Chair, I think you wrote to me—

I did, yes.

—but it's been transferred to Lynne Neagle. I hope she's responded.

I think she responded, either last night or this morning.

Okay. Clearly, the college is an autonomous organisation. They have to make their academic decisions, but, as I say, the Cabinet Secretary did meet, and I'm pleased to hear she has responded.

And on that—Carolyn, do you mind if I just jump in? Because of the evident interest or crossover there is with your portfolio, will you be having any joint discussions with her as this progresses? Because I think that the invitation from the principal came to the two of you—I think—but I might be wrong with that. You're nodding so I can see that—

No, I don't think it was—

Oh, no, it didn't? Okay.

Well, I don't think so, no.

But you'll continue the conversations with her.

Yes, absolutely. Well, I mentioned I'm having bilaterals with every Cabinet Secretary and Minister, so that will be on the agenda.

Because, as a committee, we've had some quite shocking, almost harrowing testimony from young people, anonymous testimony from young people, about how this is going to affect them, and I'm aware that Wales is going to be the only nation in these islands without an equivalent young person’s offer. So, anything that the Welsh Government can do to ensure that there's a level playing field, that these very talented young people have that sense of hope—. I know we as a committee will be discussing this later, but I know a lot of us feel very strongly and we've been really affected by the testimony that we've heard.

It might be good if you shared that with the Cabinet Secretary.

Yes, we've done so. I think Alun want's come in on this, and then I'll come back to Carolyn.

But, certainly, I'm going to have those conversations. Shall I come back to the WNO?

Yes, please, but, if Alun wants to come in on this, and then we'll come back to the WNO, if that's all right. Alun. 

Yes, I'm grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that. I’m interested, because you discussed the cultural strategy in earlier answers to questions, but there is no cultural strategy if there are no people.

No.

And there is no cultural expression if people don’t have the opportunity to learn a craft and to learn how to express themselves—in music in this case, but in other forms as well. So, I’m not convinced by the argument that this sits in somebody else’s portfolio, because, unless there is a continuity, there is nothing at the end—there is no opportunity for people. So, I think this is something that isn’t simply compartmentalised with the education department, because your ability to deliver a cultural strategy is dependent on things like this—not just this alone, but things like this as well. So, to me, it would appear that this is as essential to the future of the cultural expression of us as a country as it would be simply to an academic sort of environment.

So, I would have anticipated and expected both Cabinet Secretaries to have worked together to deliver a plan, if you like, which would enable the continuity of the opportunities for these young people that they appear to be losing at present. And I get what—. I’ve heard it said a thousand times—I’ve said it myself—about the independence of different institutions, but, at the end of the day, this is public money that is being expended here, and I’m not convinced by the arguments around independence in that sense. This is public money, and it’s a public responsibility, and the Welsh Government has a responsibility to ensure that that money delivers the sorts of outcomes that we would all wish to see and anticipate.

Yes. I think the reason I said it was in Lynne Neagle’s portfolio was that I was trying to explain why I hadn’t answered the correspondence to the Chair.

I accept that.

And she met with the principal. But I don’t know if you heard me saying that I was at the National Dance Company Wales yesterday, and we were talking about the lack of dance qualifications in Wales. So, I will be picking that up, because you’re absolutely right, it’s like anything, isn’t it—without people, you can’t have, as you say, a cultural strategy. And if we are losing people—. And, again, we were talking earlier about job losses in the museum—the specialist skills that have, unfortunately, been lost due to funding cuts.

But we need to work together to make sure that the provision is there, and, like you, it is all public money, isn’t it, but they are responsible for their decisions. I’ve not seen the letter that Lynne Neagle has written to the Chair, but I will certainly have a look at that, and, in my discussions, I will meet with her, and, following my discussions at the national dance company, I will certainly raise that with her.

Can I just pick up the WNO?

Yes, please. 

Is that okay?

Yes. 

So, again, you’re all very aware, and I know I’ve answered questions, particularly to the two Members over here, in the Chamber around it. I’m still trying to see if I can find some additional funding for them. ACW—the Arts Council of Wales—took a cut, but opera is still the most supported sector that they do. Obviously, Arts Council England, they gave the WNO a very significant cut. I’m in the process of writing to both ACW and ACE to see if there’s anything more we can do, but, going back to revenue, if there is any revenue I can find, certainly the WNO is up there on my list of priorities. But I’ve had discussions with them. They are seeing what they can do. I want to help them. I want to help them navigate this very difficult period, but, unfortunately, at the minute, I just don’t have any funding.

I know that Laura wants to come in on this. If I could implore you, on behalf of the committee, really, that this is something that we also, if there is anything that can be done—. That fantastic demonstration that we had some weeks ago in front of the Senedd, just demonstrating to all of us the talent and what is at stake here—. So, really, on behalf of the committee, as soon as you have any—. I feel hopeful now that you've said that, possibly, something could be found; as soon as there's any information, if you could let us know, we would be delighted. 

Yes, of course. I mentioned that I've had discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for economy to see if there's anything we can do in his portfolio; I've had discussions with Eluned Morgan as well. I'm just trying to find anything that I can.

That is very welcome news. Thank you. Laura wants to come in.

Yes, Chair, thank you. I just wanted to second that and, of course, reiterate what you've just said, actually. I just wanted to say that this is people we're talking about and them losing their jobs. And once that talent is drained from Wales, because of us not being able to support them, it's going to be hard to get back and hard to encourage people into it, like Alun said, in the future. So, it is very fundamental that we look into that and try and help them if it is possible, Cabinet Secretary. 

Yes, absolutely. I don't disagree with anything Laura Anne has just said. 

Thank you very much. Heledd, did you indicate that you wanted to come in?

Okay, I think I'm going to have to pass over to Paul. I certainly didn't have a discussion—. When I met them, I didn't have a discussion around a review of English theatre. Regarding the budget, my understanding is that the two budgets are together. 

Yes.

But I will pass over to Paul around the remit letter. 

You're absolutely right, within the overall music budget, there is a specific line for opera, and that line is worth 71 per cent of the overall value of the music budget within the arts council. 

The review of the English theatre?

Yes, that is something they're looking at, I know. We've asked them to look at their operational plan and come back to us with what their priorities are in light of the current funding and resource constraints they're operating under. We're expecting that really soon. So, we can pick that up with them in terms of where they are. 

Okay. And I, perhaps, can send a note to you.

Yes, that would be—

I think that our concern was that they're behind schedule on things that they've said are going to be happening at different times. And, in terms of certainty for the sector, then, if they say that they're going to do something and they're not, we need to understand why that's not happening. So, if you can work with us to support us to understand why the arts council are perhaps not doing the things that they've committed to doing to Welsh Government. 

Is the review of the English theatre one thing that you're particularly—?

It is, but there's also the review of funding—adolygiad buddsoddi—.

Oh, the—. Oh, God—.

The investment review.

The investment review. Thank you.

The investment review as well.

Yes, and some of the implications that there have been for across the sector. That would be useful. Thank you. Carolyn has a brief question and then we'll move on to Laura. 

So, WNO had funding, didn't it, from England as well—was it Arts Council England? 

Yes, but it was cut completely. I think it was cut completely, wasn't it?

They had a 35 per cent cut of their funding.

From there. 

Yes.

So you will be having conversations, then, hopefully, with the UK Government.

Yes. I think they're the only organisation that was funded by both ACW and ACE, because obviously they perform in England. 

Apologies, I should clarify as well what I've just said. Apologies. So, yes, the funding cut they had from Arts Council England is worth 35 per cent of WNO's budget, just to be clear.

Of their whole budget. Yes. So, I think that was—. You know, the reduction from ACW was nowhere near as big as that. I haven't had the opportunity to meet with ACE as yet, but I will—. As I said, I am in the process of writing, because I just need some clarity about a couple of points. 

Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. I'd just like to talk to you about sport, Cabinet Secretary. Sport is often the first thing to be cut, and has been, sadly, over the last couple of decades. I find that regrettable, when we look at some of the good work and investment that's gone on in other parts of the UK. We often see it as a luxury, it seems, to invest in sport, when we’re the first to celebrate national successes, maybe in football—whatever—or the first to complain and be concerned about obesity in children. The Welsh Government has repeatedly said that sport can be the nation’s most effective preventative health tool, and we know prevention is essential for future generations, as well as just now, so how is reducing funding for sport compatible with the budget’s focus on protecting the NHS?

Well, as you know, we had an extremely challenging budget: £700 million less since the corporate social responsibility back in 2021, so unfortunately this part of the portfolio did have a significant cut, so I think it is about 10.5 per cent, but Sport Wales have absorbed about 7 per cent of that internally, and passed on about 3 per cent. There is still a huge amount of excellent work going on right across Wales. I've met with a few of the national governing bodies; I've met, obviously, with Sport Wales on a number of occasions, so, as you know, we've got the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' strategy, for instance, so there's a huge amount being achieved through that. We've got activity for over-60s going on right across Wales, lots of pilot projects are being done by the national governing bodies to make sure people stay fit and healthy, but, unfortunately, you have to cut your cloth, don't you?

But I just think there is so much to celebrate at a local level as well. I think one of the areas where again, if I do have some further funding—. We managed to protect the £8 million we give in capital funding to Sport Wales, but it would be good, I think, to increase that so that we've got more, I don't know, tennis courts with roofs on, multi-use games areas, 3G pitches, so that the weather—. We're in the summer now, aren't we, and the weather is not great. So, unfortunately, adverse weather impacts on whether activities can take place, so I'm very keen to see what more we can do about that. But I do think we need to work with organisations; so the FAW, for instance, they've put quite a lot of funding into 3G pitches, for instance. I've had a discussion with the owners of a certain football club to see what more—

Which one could that be? Gosh.

—what more we could do. They're very keen to support grass-roots football, for instance, to see what more we can do then, and officials are taking those conversations forward. It's just about accessing as much funding as we can at any one time, really.

Yes, absolutely, Cabinet Secretary. It's very sad to see funding for pump tracks, for example, ending soon, girls' football development centres closing down—not men's, I hasten to add, so that's interesting—in my region. But it's great to see that investment as you announced today into the—. You said that significant money's going into the football museum for Wales in Wrexham; very welcome, but I have to question priorities when there are, as you've just outlined, children and young people and clubs surrounding Wrexham, or in the rest of Wales, particularly in rural areas, that aren't even able to play the sport, aren't able to play football, because, as you've just outlined, when the winter months come, everything shuts down because we're not investing in all-weather facilities like other parts of the UK are, and one of their biggest drivers is that health benefit, as well as finding our future stars.

So, really I would like to know, Cabinet Secretary, are you looking to increase contributions to sport funding from other Welsh Government departments? Is there going to be that investment? You mentioned earlier talking to the health Minister. Could you expand on that and let us know the result of those conversations, please?

Well, we are maintaining funding. I just said we've protected the capital budget for Sport Wales, so we are continuing to invest. The conversations I had with the health Minister were particularly around the WNO. That was what I was talking about. As a Government, we have put significant extra funding into the health service, so I can't then really say to her, 'Well, can I have some of your funding for this?' I think what is important is that the conversations I now have with the Cabinet Secretary for finance—because we've already started to have discussions on next year's budget; certainly over the summer recess, that's an area that we have a particular focus on—are to make sure I'm able to access as much funding as possible to make sure we can put additional funding. As I say, we've maintained the £8 million. Would I like it to be £80 million? Yes, of course, but we have to be realistic; we all have to live within our budgets. I inherited a very challenging budget. I am determined to use every penny the best way I can. I’m determined to work with partners, organisations to see if there’s any additional funding that can come in. Obviously, the football museum in Wrexham was done way before I came into portfolio, but I think that's very important. Our museums are just as important as sport. I don't want to put museums against sport, and I've made very clear my priorities are the national museum, which I'm sure nobody wants to see close, the national library and those two roofs, and that's why the statement's come out today.

Just really quickly, it's my last question, Chair. But before I got back into politics the second time around, I was helping my community to try and get a 3G pitch. To do that, there was funding coming from the FAW, the Welsh Rugby Union and a local college, as well as a bit of input from the county council. But that collaboration work is something to look into. Obviously, that's coming from education as well, then; they're utilising the fact that that college is nearby and they can use it part time and the community, and that's a really good way of looking into it. Obviously, we're doing that with schools, but those new schools aren't everywhere, and, particularly, rural areas are missing out. So, I was just wondering if you could look into maybe that sort of work.

Yes, that's already being looked into. Funnily enough, I was talking to Neil last week about this, so what's really important is when we have a new school being built that the education officials or the building officials, or whoever starts that conversation, talk to sport officials to make sure—. It's no good us putting a 3G pitch in this village if we know there's going to be a new school with it. I don't know if Neil wants to say a bit more.

Yes, there's a lot of collaboration. So, we work with the early business cases with the community-focused schools programme. Sport Wales are consulted, and within the £8 million capital fund there's a group called the artificial training pitch collaboration group, so football, rugby and hockey work together in terms of where provision would be best located. A good example close to here is Fitzalan High School: they were building a new Fitzalan school right next to the Cardiff City House of Sport, with lots of facilities there, so they didn't build as many on-site facilities in that school for that collaborative purpose. It is something they do and something they're looking to do more of with the limited funds they have.

Good. Thanks.

Thank you. I have Alun and Heledd, who want to come in on this. I really want to make sure that we get to Lee's question, so if I could implore you for as brief as possible questions and answers. Alun and then Heledd. Alun.

Okay. I'll ask two questions if I can, Cabinet Secretary. First of all, distribution of funding in terms of access to facilities in areas that are disadvantaged. Neil uses the example of Fitzalan here and the house of sport and the rest of it. Well, there's nowhere like that, of course, in Blaenau Gwent, and there are potential funding opportunities in the major cities because you have access to greater levels of sponsorship and the rest of it, and population numbers simply lead to greater facilities being available. So, there's two-tier access, if you like, across the country, and all too often we go straight to say that these issues are in rural areas, but for many people they're not, they're in urban areas as well. The areas that I represent have got very limited access to the sorts of high-quality facilities that a child growing up in Cardiff would have, and there's inequality there, and there's an inequality in terms of deprivation and the rest of it as well. So, I'd like to understand what actions the Welsh Government are taking to deliver equality of access and equality of opportunity across the country.

Secondly, in terms of the absolute budget available, officials will remember when your predecessor came back from New Zealand that she was quite shocked at the amount of funding available there for sport. When we send our teams off to play in international competitions, it's not really a fair competition, because you have far greater investment in comparative countries than we make in Wales in sport and in the sorts of pathways, if you like, from school through to professional sports. So, I'm interested as to whether you accept that first of all, that we do invest less than comparative countries, and, secondly, whether the Welsh Government has an ambition to increase the absolute investment in sport to a level that is more comparable with other countries.

Okay, if I can pick up the second point, I'll ask Neil to answer the first point around distribution of funding. But in relation to the second point, I do accept it in some areas. I don't know if it's true right across the board. I'm sure we've all had constituents contact us to say that their child's competing in gymnastics or representing Wales and asking, 'Can we have funding?' Of course, as a Government, we give our funding to Sport Wales and Sport Wales then disperses that funding.

I mean, certainly, the funding for capital is not as high as I would want it to be for the reasons I've just said: it would be great to have covered sporting facilities, so that children and young people, and adults as well, could use them all year round. I have to work within the budget I've got at the moment, but I do think, picking up the point that Laura Anne Jones made about obesity in children, it is really important that we—well, we all know this, don't we? How long have we been saying this? We need to make sure that physical activity increases. I don't know how much physical education, or whatever it's called now, in schools—. In my time, it was a very small period of time, which I tried to get out of as much as I could; you know, I didn't enjoy it and I think that is a concern—

So did I, actually.

—but after school, there were activities that I enjoyed very much. But it's about finding that balance and what children feel they are good at. And, you know, the dance yesterday, watching the videos of young people dancing, I never had the opportunity to do that; movement and dance weren't really a thing we could do. So, I think it's about cutting our cloth, making sure that we use every penny wisely. But I will ask Neil about the distribution of funding.

On the distribution, one of the funds that Sport Wales runs is Be Active Wales and the figure for the last financial year was that 85 per cent of the applications they assessed from the most deprived areas of Wales were successful. How much of that translated into what was successful goes to the quality of the applicant. But circa £1 million of that fund has gone into the most deprived areas of Wales last year. So, Sport Wales are putting an emphasis on where their money is now going; they're not looking to just fund clubs in Cardiff, they are looking at Blaenau Gwent. And, as you're aware, with Tennis Wales, their parks development programme is looking at some of the deprived areas where they can make more of a difference.

Thank you. We might want to pick up some more of that in correspondence as well, because I know that there's something else that Carolyn wanted to pick up. I'm very aware that we've only got eight minutes left and Lee hasn't been able to ask any questions. So, I'm really sorry, but we're going to have to move on to Lee—

I'm happy to hold back and keep mine brief.

You're happy to hold back. Are you sure?

Yes.

Okay. Heledd, a very brief question, if that's okay.

Can I just ask—? A few weeks ago, the Cabinet Secretary for finance announced plans for the spending review more long term. Can I ask, in terms of sport in particular, in terms of the longer term, is your aspiration to try and ensure that prevention is more strategic? Because obviously, at the moment, it is quite difficult to do so when you've got competing budgets. Is the longer term planning one of the things that you're hoping will come through the spending review?

Yes, absolutely. If you look at my portfolio, I think I mentioned it at the beginning, so much of it is cross-Government, and everybody's got bits of, haven't they? So, I think it's about making sure that we're not working in silos, that we have that strategic overlook, and I do think that we have that to a certain extent, but I'm constantly finding things. I mentioned the WNO and health; I didn't know that the WNO were doing workshops in our health facilities. So, you keep finding out things, but I think it is about drawing everything together. And certainly, in the bilaterals I have over the summer with every colleague, I'll be able to look at that. But certainly, funding, as I say, we need to put more money, I think, in the preventative, and facilities and investment in our facilities is certainly an area where I don't think we have the facilities that we would really want.

Thank you.

Thank you. Right. The final six minutes. Lee, over to you to be as pithy as you like.

Thank you. I just want to touch on broadcasting and media. Just to understand, in the draft budget, there's £1 million set for broadcasting and £100,000 for journalism. I realise that this is a consequence of the co-operation agreement.

Yes.

What is that £1 million needed for?

So, as part of the co-operation agreement, we were looking at a broadcasting and communications advisory group, so that money was put to one side. I'm looking at broadcasting, Joedi—

Yes.

That money was put to one side to take forward—. Obviously, that group, when it's formed, will advise us on actions that we need to take and that money has been put to one side for that group. Am I right?

Some of it, yes. So, some of the £1 million will be used for the group, some of the £1 million has been put towards our skills and talent development scheme, which was agreed with the designated member for—. I think the main reason for that is because we do a lot of skills development activity for the screen sector. So, we're supporting talent development in all of our public service broadcasters through that scheme. So, it was agreed that we could use some of the money for that also.

What does that do, sorry?

We've got a skills advisory panel in Creative Wales that looks after skills for creative industries, basically. And we have an action plan that was developed by that group for skills for the creative industries, and an associated budget and grant support scheme, which supports all sorts of training, really, in skills development.

So, that's not about broadcasting, though, is it? That's about creative industries. 

It's not about broadcasting, but it supports the screen sector. So, broadcasting, obviously, and the screen sector are intrinsically linked.

Well, sure, there's a relationship, but the purpose of the funding was for broadcasting and media policy development, wasn't it, rather than more money for skills development, if I understand it right? 

Originally, I think so. But—

Okay, thank you. As we're short of time, I'm keen if you can follow up the detail on that. But just to understand the big picture, the money for the broadcasting panel, how much did you set aside for that?

So, we haven't agreed the exact figure of that yet. Of the £1 million, I can tell you that £500,000 will be going towards the skills funding and an additional £250,000 is going towards the journalism funding. 

On top of the £100,000. 

On top of the £100,000. Okay. 

On top of the £100,000, and then the remainder will be used towards the broadcasting advisory group. So, it will be used for the administration of the group, but also for some research activity as well.

Okay. So, that's roughly, what, then, £250,000? 

I can't do the maths.

Okay. Because in a past life at the Institute of Welsh Affairs, I used to run the media policy, which did the initial studies, and that was done for hundreds of pounds not £250,000. So, I'd urge caution about how much money is put into that for the outputs that you're likely to get.

It would be useful to understand more about the journalism funding. We don't have the time this morning, but maybe if we could follow that up. I'm very glad to hear that that money has been re-allocated in that way, although I'm not sure that the skills funding is exactly—. Always, it's a good thing for sure, but in terms of the policy intent of accepting that we have an underdeveloped broadcasting and media landscape, you know, additional money into more skills is not quite addressing the issue, but perhaps we can return to this.

Yes. 

Thank you.

Great. Thank you. Well, Carolyn, you have a couple of minutes. You wanted to ask a supplementary question earlier.

It was just regarding sport, that was all. We discussed in a previous committee the school sports survey and the importance of finding out what sports we need to grow and develop that young people want to actually take part in, which was really useful. I know that basketball is the fastest growing sport with young people and investment into spaces within communities is really important, because travelling to them can be really difficult now with less public transport. So, I just wanted to ask questions about that, really, making sure that we've got those community facilities. 

So, the school sports survey, I think, took place before I came into portfolio, but I think it threw up some interesting—. The sports that Sport Wales thought would come out, it didn't actually give the answers that were expected, I think it's fair to say.

That's fair to say. The school sports survey is done every three years, so there'll be another one coming up next year. The school sports survey then is used as a formula—as part of the formula, not the whole—as to which sports receive the most funding. So, you traditionally have seen rugby, football get a lot of funding. I think, this time round, we've seen basketball come through. Some of the, what we would say, lesser known sports have received more funding in the new funding formula that Sport Wales have been implementing. They are reviewing it. They are keeping an eye on it to make sure that what children said in the sports survey is leading into activity, but it's an iterative process. They've been running it for a number of years now. As I say, it's due again, I believe, next year, and then we will see whether that then confirms where the funding has been going to date and will inform where the future funding goes as well.

Thank you so much. Alun wanted to ask a supplementary, I'm afraid. I'm sorry, Laura. Alun, if you could be very brief, because we have 10 seconds left. 

Your predecessor was committed to seeking the devolution of broadcast policy. Are you committed to that and will you be actively and proactively seeking the devolution of broadcasting policy?

I'm certainly going to have discussions. Obviously, I haven’t as yet. I was saying just before you came in, I’ve got 11 Ministers in the UK Government that fit into my portfolio, so I don’t know which one is broadcasting at the moment, but certainly I will be having a discussion.

So, is that a 'yes' or 'no'?

It's a discussion. I haven't formed an opinion as yet. The policy of broadcasting sits in my portfolio and the delivery sits in Sarah Murphy's. I need to have a discussion with Sarah first and then a further discussion with the UK Government.

Laura, was your question a 'yes' or 'no' answer question?

It doesn't matter. Thanks.

Are you sure? Okay. Right.

We really appreciate the fact that people have written to us as a committee outlining some of their concerns, outlining some of their personal circumstances. We treat those very seriously and we're very grateful to you for writing to us.