National Assembly for Wales

In accordance with Standing Order 17.22, I invite nominations for a temporary Chair for today's meeting and the next meeting on 24 June.

I'd like to nominate Rhianon Passmore.

Thank you very much.

I can confirm that Rhianon Passmore has been elected temporary Chair for this meeting and the meeting on 24 June.

Thank you very much, everybody. Before we start, I'd like to offer my congratulations to the Chair of this committee, Jack Sargeant.

We're going to move quickly on to item 2, which is introductions, obviously, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. I don't think we've had any apologies today, is that right?

Well, other than Jack.

We have had Jack, of course, yes. Of course. And in terms of substitutions and declarations of interest? No. Thank you very much.

We're going to go straight on to item 3, which is new petitions. So, that's a petition of the sixth Senedd, and it's No. 1409, 'Cease all further planning for road charging in Wales'.

Before we do that, I would like to welcome you all to this hybrid meeting of the Petitions Committee. The meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, and the Record of Proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptations for conducting proceedings in a hybrid format, all other Standing Order requirements remain in place.

And moving then on to petition No. 1409. Thank you. So, in terms of that, I'm going to pass over to, I think, Pered. Peter.

Thank you, Chair, and can I also add my congratulations to Jack Sargeant? I hope everything is going well at home.

Yes, so, on to the first item, and just for context, the petition was—and I'll read it—

'The National transport plan 2022-2027 indicates the Welsh government are planning to introduce road charging in Wales. We the Welsh public do not support such a strategy and would like the Welsh government to cease all further planning for such a strategy.'

That was submitted by Daniel Healey-Benson. It had 10,183 signatures, nearly 10,000 of those were based in Wales. There was a response received from the Welsh Government on 20 May, and in the response, the Cabinet Secretary for North Wales and Transport said that there were

'no plans to introduce road user charging on the strategic trunk road network.'

He also clarified that the

'Powers to implement universal road charging and to retain revenues are held by the UK' 

Government. However, we know that the Transport Act 2000 enables charging schemes on trunk roads and motorway networks, but in very limited circumstances, generally around things like air quality and soundscapes. The explanatory memorandum to the Act also outlines the Government’s intention to commence relevant provisions under the 2000 Act, to enable local authorities to fully implement charging schemes on local roads. But, as I said, the Cabinet Secretary doesn’t refer to the potential introduction of road user charging on local roads.

The transport strategy commits to developing a fair and equitable road user charging framework, with the national transport delivery plan giving the timescale of 2022 to 2026. And we know that there are plans in Cardiff to consider the introduction of a road user payment scheme. Cardiff have said that they want to look at a range of schemes including, but not limited to, road user payments, congestion zones, clean air zones and workplace parking.

So, we can see from all of this that, albeit that the Cabinet Secretary has made it clear that there are no plans for road user charging on the strategic road network, it does look very much like there are still opportunities for various schemes to come into place on other networks. There's still a need for some further clarity around these. In that regard, we have some options, really, to look at.

We may want to think about a debate in the Senedd, recognising the number of signatures, but perhaps prior to considering that, we might want to seek further clarification from the Cabinet Secretary, and perhaps contact the Welsh Local Government Association, to understand what the wider position might be across the local government family in regard to road charging. And I think that's probably, Chair, what we need to just decide. We may not be able to do much more on this, but I think it might deserve a little bit more clarity from the Cabinet Secretary, and perhaps the WLGA, before we decide, then, if we should be taking it forward for a debate or closing it.

Thank you very much, Peter. I did want to mention Daniel Healey-Benson and the signatures of 10,183 prior to you coming in there, Pete, and 9,989 of those are from Wales. I mean, I don't know if there are any other comments from you, Pred. I think it seems eminently sensible in terms of seeking clarity, but I don't know if you've got any other comments.

I would agree with Peter that we should seek clarity from the Cabinet Secretary, and it would be a good idea to ask the WLGA as well, to write to the WLGA, to get their views.

Thank you. So, we'll go ahead with that course of action then. Thank you very much. We're going to move on then to item 3.2, and that's P-06-1420, 'Make this a condition of employment for MSs—they must use only public transport for all travel'. And I'll read it:

'The current anti-car, anti-motorist agenda is against the wishes of the people of Wales. We need our cars. We need to go faster than 20mph. Public transport in Wales is too slow, not at the times we need it, not to enough destinations, not reliable, not affordable, not viable for taking heavy equipment. MSs need to be forced to use it for every journey so they sort it out for everyone. They should not be allowed to travel by car. They should experience the frustration of Wales' transport system.'

I think, in that regard, we can look at the submitter, who is Catherine Williams; signatures of 1,359; 1,336 Wales only; from the constituency of Bridgend and South Wales West. So, I know members of the committee will have their views on this. I don't know who would like to go first. Rhys, I think you were going to lead on this. Yes.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. Yes, I do sympathise with parts of this petition. We've all experienced how bad public transport can be in Wales, and we've experienced great public transport in other locations. Simply, public transport in Wales is not good enough, and I think we can all agree with that. However, this petition simply isn't practical. We know already how bad the public transport system is in Wales, and for several reasons it just cannot happen. Therefore, I thank the petitioner for raising this important point, and for her engagement with the committee, but it's my submission that we close this petition. Diolch yn fawr.

Okay. Thank you very much, Rhys. Are there any further comments from Members? Thank you. We will indeed thank—. Sorry, Pete.

As much as I see where the petitioner is coming from, it's unachievable in a rural constituency like mine. As much as I would love to be able to jump on a bus that would coincide with our meetings and expectations and to be able to attend various surgeries and different things like that, the fact is that we are light years away from having a public service that would enable us to achieve this. So, the only thing we can do is to make a commitment, as and when public transport evolves, for us to use it a lot more, and I think we would all willingly do that.

Okay, thank you very much. I think that's pretty clear and I don't think any other Members want to comment. I think we will close the petition and thank the submitter for the perspective that's been offered and the engagement.

I'm going to move on to item 3.3, which is P-06-1424, 'Senedd Reform Bill to be amended to include provisions for constituency approval of MS pay increases'. And it goes on to state:

'We demand that the Senedd develop and institute an approval system for all MS Pay Rises and that the procedure must be incorporated in the "Senedd Reform Bill".

'This would mean that once any pay rise is recommended by the Remuneration Board, each Member's Constituents have a binding vote to approve or veto each of their individual representatives' receipt of the agreed pay rise based on their performance as a good incumbent.

'This system to be applied to both Constituency and Regional Representatives.'

And the submitter is Alan Dawson—signatures 566; 561 are Wales only—from the constituencies of Arfon and North Wales, and I'd invite Peredur Owen Griffiths to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take.

Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank the petitioner for this petition. The Counsel General has responded and has stated very clearly that it would not be appropriate for the Senedd Cymru (Members and Elections) Bill to include provisions for each Member's constituents to have a binding vote to approve or veto an agreed pay rise based on performance. He states that it's

'important in a representative democracy that a Member can express their opinion, including when it may be unpopular, without fear or favour. I would wish to avoid any circumstance in which different Members could feel that they had different levels of freedom to express their political opinion'.

He also notes that the provisions in the Bill will increase the frequency of Senedd elections, providing more opportunities for democratic renewal and increasing the accountability of Members by allowing the electorate to more frequently express their opinions on a Member's performance.

The petitioner has come back and disagreed with that, and we've also had the—speaking to the Independent Remuneration Board of the Senedd. I think the other point is that this Bill has now been completed and is going for Royal Assent, therefore amending it is not possible, and that it would potentially be unworkable. So, I'd like to thank the petitioner for sharing their ideas and to close the petition.

Thank you very much, Peredur. Any further comments from the committee? No. Thank you very much. Then we will thank the submitter of the petition and we've agreed that that's not possible to carry forward in terms of the legislation that's already gone through, and we're going to close that petition. Thank you very much.

I'm going to move on to item 3.4, which is entitled P-06-1433, 'Stop the ban on GB News in the Senedd', and it's entitled:

'How can the Senedd Commission simply ban a news broadcaster's show being shown in the Senedd? This is how Dictatorship starts. GB news—some will like it, others won't—but in my opinion at least they offer a genuine debate with all sides of the argument being invited.'

And the submitter is Mark Griffiths. The signatures are 309, with 273 from Wales only. The constituency is Cardiff West and South Wales Central, and I'd invite Peter to discuss the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take forward. Thank you, Peter.

Thank you, Chair. Obviously, this subject did create quite a lot of concern when it happened, and we also know that Ofcom are the key people who adjudicate over the nature and regulate over the nature of broadcasters, and indeed they did find in March, earlier this year, that the specific episode that caused a lot of the concern did break broadcasting rules, and, in that regard, GB News was found wanting, and hence we know that the Llywydd took the decision that GB News wouldn't be broadcast on the tv system. And we know that there are concerns, perhaps, over the nature of GB News's content at times, but I do think we mustn't forget the role of Ofcom in regulating this.

So, personally, I do believe that the Llywydd was sufficiently concerned on the back of the offending broadcast to take the stance she did. However, I don't know if we can always draw that, because of that one episode that was wrong and bad, every other episode might be the same. So, I think it might be useful for us to write to the Llywydd to seek clarity on the current position and to decide whether there is anything further we should do. But my expectation is that I doubt there is too much more we could do, and we will probably have to close the petition.

So, I can understand why the Llywydd took the original decision. We now need to review what her current position is and probably we can reflect on that afterward. It may be, once we do have that clarity, we can decide if we need to close the petition or produce further correspondence, perhaps—I don't know who with; the Llywydd again, I suppose.

Okay, thank you very much. I invite other members of the committee, if they have any further comments, or whether they concur with seeking the clarification on the current status from the Llywydd and holding the petition until that point, or whether Members want to close it down and seek clarity.

I concur with Peter.

Concur with Peter. So, we will carry on, then, in terms of seeking that clarification in terms of where we stand now and, at that point, then, decide to close or not. Thank you very much.

We're going to move on to item 3.5, which is P-06-1434, 'First Minister to intervene & save Welsh Duolingo'.

'Duolingo will no longer update its Welsh course from the end of Oct 2023, with no further development.

'This petition is to call for the First Minister to personally intervene with Luis von Ahn, the CEO of Duolingo, with the aim of saving the Welsh course.'

As everybody knows, it is an active thematic in terms of the 650,000 active learners of Welsh already on Duolingo and over 2 million who have stated that they've learned some Welsh on the course. I believe there's further information in the pack. The submitter is Kierion Lloyd, and there are 4,170 signatures, 2,772 from Wales only. The constituency and region are Clwyd South and North Wales. I would like to invite Peredur Owen Griffiths to discuss the petition and any actions, Peredur, you wish the committee to take.

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I'd like to start by saying—

It's good to get this petition discussed at this meeting. We've had some correspondence backwards and forwards, and the Welsh Government and the National Centre for Learning Welsh have taken action and engaged with Duolingo. The subject has been raised on several occasions in the Senedd, and I don't think there's an awful lot more that the committee can do. I think the petitioner should really be congratulated on his passion and commitment to increasing the opportunities for Welsh learners, and effectively raising the awareness of this valuable and significant use of Duolingo courses, as there are other courses that are out there, but Duolingo is a very recognisable course. I think the best course of action now would be to thank—

So, close the petition down and for each one of us to monitor in our own capacities, then, to make sure that things continue in that vein.

Thank you. Would other Members wish to make any further comment? No. I think, then, in terms of that, that's a clear course forward. And in terms of the ongoing dialogue that there has been around this, as you've said, Peredur, I think it's useful for us all, in our individual capacities, to be able to monitor where this moves in the future. And yes, I would also join with you in thanking the petitioner for this very important petition, which has been brought forward to us. Thank you. We can close that petition.

I'm going to move on to item 4.1, which is updates to previous petitions and 'Re-open Dyfi Ward at Tywyn Hospital now'. The submitter is Jane Eleanor Seddon Barraclough, and there are 1,314 signatures online and 4,214 signatures on paper—a total of 5,528 signatures. The constituency is Dwyfor Meirionnydd in North Wales, and, in terms of where we are at with that, I would like to ask Rhys to discuss further the petition and any actions you wish the committee to take. Rhys.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. This is the fourth time we've considered this petition, this very important petition. We've had a response from the health board saying that some further appointments of medical staff have been made, but there's no date yet for when they can start, and, subsequently, there's no date for when the ward can reopen. Naturally, the petitioner is very frustrated with the response received by the health board and very critical of actions taken by the health board. Can I suggest that we shouldn't close this petition? I know we've discussed it on four occasions, but, until we have a firm date with regard to reopening the ward, I don't think we should close the petition. But can I suggest that we write again to the health board asking when we can receive a firm date for the reopening of the ward? And can we thank the petitioner for her engagement with us as a committee and for raising this very important issue with us? Diolch yn fawr.

Diolch yn fawr, Rhys. Thank you very much. Any other Members wish to comment?

I agree with Rhys.

Yes. Thank you very much. So, we're going to write again to clarify where exactly the recruitment process is, as has been said by Rhys, and we will keep that petition open. And again, I would like to thank the petitioner for their resilience and persistence in this matter. So, thank you for that.

I'm going to move to item 4.2, P-06-1365, 'Re-open railway lines to connect the north and south of Wales', submitter Elfed Wyn ap Elwyn, signatures 12,936, 11,639 Wales only. That's Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Mid and West Wales. I would like, as the Chair, to ask Peredur, who met with the petitioner, I believe, when he walked from Bangor to the Senedd in September last year, to remind us of what has happened with that petition since and to possibly suggest any actions further that you wish the committee to take. Peredur.

Diolch yn fawr, Peredur. Are there any further comments from Members? Thank you. In terms of what you've stated, in terms of whether we wait as a committee for the feasibility study or not, I think the overriding substantive point is that a debate is wanted. It's about noting that. I think, in terms of your preference, Peredur, it's to wait for the feasibility study. 

I think so, yes. 

Okay. But overriding that, I think the importance of this matter is such that it would demand a debate. 

That we put a marker down to say that we want a debate, but we'll wait for the feasibility study and, once we've had that, that we ask Business Committee for a debate. 

I think so. 

Do we have any indication of when that may be? 

I'm not sure. But I think if it goes on too long, maybe that we review this towards the end of the summer term and, if it's not coming fairly soon, rather than leave this debate hanging, that we ask for a debate anyway, and then we can debate it on the floor of the Senedd.  

I also think we should find out what the feasibility study timeline is, so that we can decide upon that. So, we'll write to the Minister on that, and then, as has just been said, we will request that debate. If it's going to last for too long, then we will do it sooner rather than later. But I think we need to have clarity on when that feasibility study is to be published. Thank you very much. And I'd also, again, like to express my appreciation to the petitioner for the novel and non-contentious way in which he's carried out this particular petition campaign. All power to his legs. Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr ichi. 

We come to item 4.3, P-06-1369, 'Use only Welsh names for places in Wales', submitted by Mihangel—if I've said that right—ap Rhisiart. There are 1,397 signatures, with 1,249 from Wales only. The constituency is Neath, South Wales West. I'm going to ask Peter if he would lead the discussion on this petition, and also put forward any actions that he would like the committee to consider. 

Thanks, Chair. This has had quite a lot of consideration. We know that it was first considered back in October 2023, and the committee considered it for a second time on 18 March. It was agreed that we would write to the Minister for Education and Welsh Language to request further detail regarding the work and reports on the implementation in relation to the use of Welsh place names. Members will have seen quite a considerable response back from the Minister, explaining the position and what has been happening. It does give a detailed run-through of the actions arising through the co-operation agreement in that area and the work on the new linguistic infrastructure unit. So, quite a lot has been going on, and like I say, there have been two sets of discussions around this. I noted that the petitioner didn't submit any responses to the Minister's letter, so I'm unclear, really, what further action we could take as a committee on this point. I thank the petitioner for raising it and making us think quite hard about this over a while, but I don't think there's much more we can do, so I would suggest that we close this petition.

Thank you very much, Peter. I note your comments. Is there any other further comment? Thank you. So, we will thank the petitioner and we will close the petition. Thank you.

We're going to move on to item 4.4, P-06-1380, 'Make Blue badge Applications Lifelong for individuals who have a lifelong diagnosis'. The submitter is STAND NW CIC. I'm not sure if that's an organisation, Clerk.

It's an organisation.

Thank you very much. There are 1,618 signatures, 1,566 are Wales only, and that's the constituency of Vale of Clwyd, North Wales. I would like to go on to ask Rhys to discuss the petition and any actions he wishes the committee to take.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. This is the third time we've discussed this petition, and we've received a similar response from the Cabinet Secretary to what we had from his predecessors, namely that applicants who permanently meet the eligibility criteria can be awarded a badge on a not-for-reassessment basis. So, they say that is available. However, I would say that probably all of us have been contacted by constituents over the years expressing frustration with the application system for blue badges. However, the Government response has been clear to us on every occasion that they believe that the current scheme is effective and that they have no intention to review the current scheme or make any changes to it. Therefore, with some regret and frustration, I think that there's nothing more that we as a committee can do other than thank the petitioner for raising this very important issue and close this petition. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you very much, Rhys. I note the number of times this has come forward to this committee, and obviously in terms of the importance of that not going away with no seeming resolution in terms of the communications that we have. I don't know if any other Members want to comment. There is another potential action in terms of potentially writing to the Welsh Local Government Association and asking for them to contact the 22 local authorities—I don't know what Members would think around that—and closing the petition at that point.

We could do, yes.

Is there any dissent? 

No. I think that that's a good idea, Cadeirydd. I'm loath to close it in such an unsatisfactory manner. So, yes, if that can help in any way, I support that completely.

Thank you. So, we will write to the WLGA expressing the perspective of this petitioner and the important points that have not gone away within its argument and narrative, and seek to close the petition at that point. Thank you very much.

We're going to move on to item 4.5, P-06-1396, another very important issue, 'Introduce a vape licence for dedicated vape shops'. The submitter is Claire Ford, with 541 signatures online and 8,494 on paper, making a total of almost 10,000—9,035 signatures collected. The constituency is Blaenau Gwent, South Wales East. I'd like Peredur to take this forward and lead on this particular petition agenda item. I believe you met with these petitioners earlier this year.

Yes. I met with the petitioners, Chair, and it's an astonishing feat, really, for them to get nearly 8,500 signatures on paper, which was a chunk when it came in. Jack Sargeant, Joel James and I met them, and it was good to hear from them. They were encouraged a little by what was meant to be happening in Westminster, and looking to see what that legislation would mean. Obviously, with the dissolution of Parliament, we don't know. That legislation is no longer proceeding, so we don't know what is happening at the moment, until after the election.

I think the most sensible way forward is to wait and see what's in the King's Speech after the formation of the next Government, and then write to the appropriate Minister in the Government in Westminster, because it's a non-devolved area. I think the King's Speech is due to be around 17 July, so if we hang fire with this petition, keep it open, wait until we hear if anything is said in that King's Speech, and, if not, then go and write to them.

The other thing the petitioner can do, of course—and anybody with an interest in this—is get in touch with any general election candidates, from any party, to try and lobby on behalf of what they're trying to achieve, because it's an important issue that we all have been getting involved with, and finding out what the various parties and manifestos say about this, and then moving that forward. But we'll do our bit when the next Westminster Government is formed.

Thank you very much. Is there any other comment from Members? So, we're going to keep this petition open—extremely valid. I also note that the response from the Minister related to smoking, not vaping. In regard to the King's Speech, our correspondence to the UK Minister, that would be our course of action, and, indeed, a huge thanks to this petitioner in terms of their resilience in getting so many paper signatures. It's a very hard job to be able to keep doing that, and consistently achieving those numbers is very important. I take on board what you said, Peredur, in terms of contacting the general election candidates and seeking out what policies belong to each political party in that regard. So, thank you very much to the petitioner.

We're going to move on to item 5, which is papers to note. I believe there is a representative in the gallery, Linda, who is very much involved in this particular petition, which I'll read out: P-06-1291, 'Hold an enquiry into the corporate takeover of the veterinary profession in Wales'. Following the committee's previous evidence sessions with vets and animal welfare campaigners, the Competitions and Markets Authority announced on 23 May that it would be undertaking an inquiry into veterinary services for household pets. We've also received written evidence supporting this inquiry. Are Members content to note the papers in this very important area? Yes. Thank you very much. I'd also like to thank Linda for her persistence in this matter, which is very important across Wales.

That concludes today's business. There are two items to note: we will be publishing the report on the petition 'Welsh Government should take steps to ensure vulnerable adults without bank cards can pay with cash' on Friday 21 June during Learning Disability Week, and this committee's request for a petition debate has been confirmed for 26 June on the petition 'Increase, don't cut, funding for the National Library, Amgueddfa Cymru and the Royal Commission'. That's a 30-minute debate. The committee will next meet on 24 June 2024. I'd like to thank very much members of the committee for putting up with my first attempt at chairing this committee. I'm sure it will be better next week. Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr ichi.