National Assembly for Wales

Baroness Bull, would you like to introduce yourself for the record, please?

Of course. I'm Deborah Bull, Baroness Bull. I'm a crossbench peer in the House of Lords. I have a background in the performing arts. I was a ballet dancer myself, so I have a long history within the arts.

Thank you ever so much. If it's all right, we'll go straight into questions to you. Could you tell us, in your experience, what the real-life consequences of Brexit are for the sector?

I need to start by saying, of course, I'm no longer working in the sector, so I am collecting evidence, if you like, in the way that you are. It may have a more personal resonance for me than for some of your committee, although, I don't know, you may have some performing artists there amongst you. So, I'm really trying to be a voice for the sector.

I think what's interesting about the impact of Brexit is it has uncovered, perhaps, the truth that systems are often set up for big entities, for large corporations. What we see is that freedom of movement within the EU was masking that, because it allowed anybody the full freedoms of membership of the EU, particularly freedom of movement of people and services. Of course, that's particularly impactful for the creative industries, because the creative industries, the cultural sector, are largely made up of small and medium-sized enterprises—small companies, far fewer than 10 people. So, they are hit very hard by the impact of losing that freedom to move across borders.

I think we see the impact in four areas, and I'm sure we'll go on to talk about them a little bit more: the patchwork of visa and work permit arrangements in the 27 EU countries, which is impacting people's ability just to manage all of that, notwithstanding the cost of it too; the costs of carnets to move goods—to move equipment, really—across borders; cabotage restrictions that mean that trucks can't stop in multiple countries before returning to their UK base; and then CITES requirements, so, the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora, which impacts musicians who have, typically, ivory in the musical instruments.

What's becoming apparent is that this is having the greatest impact on younger, emerging artists, and this is really because they don't have the resources to withstand the administrative, financial and bureaucratic burdens of making those multiple arrangements. I would say that, of course, this isn't just about economic hits for artists, it's about cultural and creative missed opportunities that impact all of us. I do try to make the point that this is also hurting artists and arts organisations in the EU, not just in terms of the ability to come here, but because of the contribution that UK artists have always made to the EU arts scene, to the music industry there. So, there's a cultural hit, there's an economic hit, there's an opportunity hit for young people. 

Thank you very much indeed. That was a very useful overview, and lots of the themes that you've picked up on there we'll go into greater detail on as we go into the questions, if that's all right. But one of the reasons why, I think, it's so useful to be hearing from you is exactly because of what you were setting out, that you have experience yourself of being a performer, of working in the performing arts at the height of that industry. Could you tell us, aside from economic hits and the practical barriers that are in place for performers, what the impact on creativity and co-operation is from these different barriers?

I'm really glad that you pulled that out. If you think about the career trajectory of a young artist, they grow and they develop by interacting with other artists and, crucially, by tasting, sampling and testing themselves in other environments. So, when an artist goes and performs at a music festival in Europe, they're not just bringing home money, they're bringing home connections, they're growing as artists, they're understanding how their work plays out amongst new audiences, they're bringing cultural collaborations and crossovers that influence the art form. So, there's personal development that ensues for the individual artist, but there's also art form development, because art forms collide, cultures collide. They clash and they meld, and something new emerges. So, it is just so incredibly sad that this opportunity is less easily available for artists. 

I know that we can talk about how artists can travel, there are permit-free opportunities, but of course those only are allowed if you're not paid. Artists need paying, especially young artists need paying. So, I do think that, as you've pulled out, that personal opportunity, the networking, the building of contacts, all of those things that shape the individual as a professional in the sector, as an artist and as part of a community that creates new and emerging art forms that have always been—. We have a long history in Europe of artists travelling back and forth and settling down and creating new art forms that have influenced different cultures. And the reason it happens in Europe—. It can happen anywhere, of course, but the obvious point is that European countries are closer and so cheaper to get to. 

That's very useful. Thank you very much indeed. We'll move on to Hefin David. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. There's been an array of solutions presented to us through our evidence gathering that is quite bewildering to the uninformed. So, you've mentioned carnets; UK Music said we need a cultural touring agreement with the EU that must include a waiver on carnets, that the Government should streamline processes around exporting merchandise and VAT registration and reduce the additional charges on merchandise being imported, and a that cultural touring agreement should include an exemption from cabotage restrictions for registered specialist event hauliers. So, there is a whole range of options. What do you think the best possible outcome would be from that array, and how would they be organised?

They do, of course, interlock with each other, because there's no point in allowing artists to tour if their kit can't tour with them. The Independent Society of Musicians, who I'm sure have given evidence to you too, have done a lot of work. They pulled together the vast membership that they have across music, and much of what they say is relevant across all of the performing arts. The priority that they speak to, and I would agree, is to negotiate a bespoke waiver agreement with the EU, which is not a bilateral agreement, but an EU-wide agreement, which would allow UK artists—. It would be reciprocal, of course, but it would allow artists to tour in any part of the EU for 90 days in a period of 180. This is widely supported. It's supported by the UK and the EU domestic advisory groups; they issued a joint statement on this. And in fact, the EU's own music strategy recommends something similar for EU artists. They call it a cultural passport. It would harmonise the visa regulations across different countries, because at the moment you have some countries—few—who offer no arrangements, some allow one performance only and some allow up to 90 in 180 days.

I think the interesting point about this is that this type of agreement is common practice between the EU and third countries. They have all sorts of visa waiver agreements, and typically, they don't include carrying out paid activities. But, typically, they universally exempt artists and sportspersons. So, they have loads of these in place, and they all say, 'You can't do paid activities, but if you're an artist or a sportsperson, you can'. So, there is precedence for this. The legal advice is that there's nothing to prevent the UK and the EU entering into this; and, in fact, the UK Government has admitted that it would be legally possible. It wouldn't require reopening the trade and co-operation agreement. So, the visa waiver agreement, I think, could underpin the raft of other changes, which would be around reducing the needs of the carnet, or at least the cost of the carnet, and the cabotage exemption.

And then I think the other thing that is perhaps niche but important is to make Eurostar a CITES port. Because if you are carrying an instrument with a CITES certificate, you have to go through a CITES port, and Eurostar is not a designated CITES port. So, you've then got to fly to the airports that are. We have designated ports, but not the obvious, cheap route, which is the train under the channel. So, that would be the priority ask: focus on the visa waiver agreement.

And these things, you said, would be outside of the trade and co-operation agreement structure. 

The legal advice that's been received by the membership bodies is that the visa waiver would not require a reopening of the TCA; it would be an additional agreement between the UK and the EU.

That's really helpful. Would you mind if I just move on to the TCA itself? I'm looking at the structure of the TCA. We've had some briefings here from our legal experts. We've travelled to Brussels to meet at the Welsh Government offices and have met with European parliamentarians who are part of the parliamentary partnership assembly, and what came through was, first of all, that the structure of the TCA doesn't advantage Welsh-specific interests. For example, the UK domestic advisory group is only represented by one very small voluntary organisation from Wales and no-one else. The general feeling was that the TCA is not functional for Wales itself and Wales's cultural endeavour, and, more broadly, the TCA is unsatisfactory to the UK Government too. What are your views on that, and is there an opportunity now to develop and reform it?

I wish I could say I'm surprised that it's not fit for purpose, but I'm not surprised. I think there are many elements that were simply perhaps missed out, and I'm very sorry to hear that Wales is not adequately represented. There is the upcoming TCA review, but I think work needs to be done on trying to determine and push for the best version of that review, because the wording in the TCA about it is very vague. It talks about jointly reviewing the implementation of the agreement; it doesn't talk about jointly reviewing the agreement. Of course, if the implementation is flawed, it may be because the agreement is flawed. But I know that the UK in a Changing Europe think tank at King's have come up with possible models—a sort of minimalist, moderate and maximalist model, which would deepen the TCA and make changes that were needed. And I think we do need to be trying, through the various channels, to push that it is much more than a 'look, nod and move on', and is more about looking at the relationship now, what we know. 

The tone of the relationship with Europe seems to have massively changed in my time. I think we will be onto our fifth parliamentary partnership assembly meeting in March, and the tone and the warmth of them has massively changed. There's actually quite a consensus across the piece of what needs to happen, and particularly these areas where, I'm sorry to say it, but—. Well, I'm not sorry to say it. I genuinely don't think anybody meant for this particular thing to happen in terms of touring artists. I don't think it was the intention. I think it was an oversight, I think it was people talking over each other and taking positions rather than actually listening. And the fact that both sides say they wanted, and the other rejected, a better offer, to me, says two things: (1) you weren't listening to each other, and (2) we all want the same thing. And if we all want the same thing and things have moved on, surely it is not beyond the wit of the Parliaments involved to make the changes. So, I think, the TCA review moment, we need to look to it as something that can make a difference, but not assume that it will be a 'stop and start again'. So, I think work needs to go on to try to push us towards that maximalist model of review, or at least the moderate, but not the minimal one. 

Can I ask, then, how influential is the parliamentary partnership assembly in making that happen?

[Laughter.] So, that's a very good point. It's been very interesting for me, as a relatively new parliamentarian, to be involved in something at the outset, and, goodness, at the outset of so much, because it was the outset of a new relationship with Europe, it was the outset of a totally new type of agreement with Europe, and it was the outset of a new set of governance mechanisms for the relationship. And we did say, at the outset, this group will only be as effective as we determine that it will be. And I think we've done better than people thought we would, because we have put important issues on the table, and we have found consensus and we've sent recommendations up. But that is what we can do—we can send recommendations up to the partnership council, and they will respond to them, but whether or not they will take them into account, I think it will be—. I think it can be important in raising issues. 

And I think, with the touring artists, I decided, right at the beginning, that this would be something I could usefully do. So, I, rather unashamedly, spoke about it at every opportunity, until I found the tribe of people who were going to join me on that journey. So, I think we can put things on the table and make sure that they're heard, and there are influential people who come—Šefčovič comes, and UK Ministers come and so on. So, to an extent, we can be influential, but, in the end, it will be the EU Commission and the UK Government that do the work. 

Yes. So, maybe you bump into the Foreign Secretary in the House of Lords tea room, I don't know. Do you have the opportunity, perhaps—? He seems open to change. Do you think that you'd have the opportunity to encourage him to engage with this and make the changes through his office?

Well, that actually happened. He appeared in front of the—. His first appearance in front of a select committee was in front of the Lords' EU affairs committee, which is now chaired by Lord Ricketts, Peter Ricketts, who was—sorry, is—one of the vice-chairs of the PPA. So, what Lord Ricketts did was put exactly this question to him, on the record, and, actually, what he said was that—. He largely held a line, but he said he would be happy to look at whether more could be done on behalf of UK touring artists. So, he opened a small window there, which many people now will be tapping at and saying, 'Can we talk to you about what more can be done, either within the existing framework or at the moment of review?'

So, yes, Cameron was, of course, very involved in campaigning against Brexit, and did associate himself quite a lot with the cultural sector. I remember being at events and so on with him. So, I think he understands this, and I think he would be interested in this, and I think it is worth using whatever channels there are to just keep it front of mind, amongst—I absolutely fully accept—the very, very many important global issues he's having to deal with. 

Well, any chance you get to speak up for Wales, if you bump into him, then please do. 

I promise I will. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. 

Thank you.

We'll move on to Carolyn Thomas.

Besides the bespoke waiver agreement, how else do you think that the matters you've raised could be addressed?

So, the other recommendations that are coming out are around reducing costs and administrative burden. So, carnets are one of the issues that are really impacting. So, the new trading arrangements mean that, whereas if I was taking my kit—my musical instruments et cetera—across the border to use them and back, I could have just done that under our membership of the EU, now you need to have these sort of temporary passports for the import of equipment that you're then bringing back again. So, they can cost up to £390, plus a security deposit, which is 30 per cent or 40 per cent of the value. So, quite a lot of upfront money, even though some of it comes back. So, the issues there are the cost, the time to complete these. Bearing in mind, as I said at the beginning, that most companies in the creative sector are SMEs, they just don't have the capacity to do this. What they've also found is that there is very differing knowledge at the borders of what's required and what's supposed to happen because, the border forces at the multiple borders, you can't begin to imagine the sorts of things they need to understand, and understanding about carnets is possibly not the top of their list. So, something on carnets that would reduce the cost or have a cultural exemption for performing artists' equipment would be great.

Cabotage, the cabotage situation—. I have to say, it's not a word I'd really come across, even though trucks carried our sets when I was dancing, it wasn't something I ever bothered about, but the cabotage rules now mean that a truck coming from the UK can have a maximum of three stops in the EU before they have to come back, and they can only do one cabotage movement within seven days. So, cabotage—I'm sure people know, but I didn't, so I will say—it's the loading and unloading of goods within a country with a vehicle that is registered in another country. That's what cabotage means. This restriction to three movements, and one in seven days, means that the old model where you'd do a show, get on the bus—. And orchestras have their own buses now; UK taxpayers invested in these buses so that orchestras could travel with their instruments, but now they can't make the multiple movements that make the tour economically viable. So, there have been some changes on that; there's now dual registration, so a company can set themselves up with an EU and a UK base, but, of course, that doesn't work for an orchestra with its specialist truck. And the other issue is, if you wait for the cabotage movement, what do you do with the people? Because you can't keep your artists there not performing. So, cabotage is a really big issue, and it's making tours economically just not viable at all.

Merchandise is interesting. It's quite an important source of revenue for artists, and now there are restrictions on the merchandise you can take and how you can take it. If you carry it yourself, it's different than if you don't. What the Independent Society of Musicians found was that musicians are taking three approaches. Some are following the rules but taking the financial hit; some are just taking undeclared merchandise, which really risks them; and others, of course, are getting their merchandise made in the EU so that they don't suffer from the same rules, so T-shirt manufacturers and CD manufacturers in the UK are losing out. So, doing something on merchandise, at least streamlining the paperwork, would help. And then the CITES point, which I've made, about the Eurostar. 

I think the other point that has come up is—. I don't know if you've ever looked at Gov.uk and the site where you would go if you were a musician trying to understand, but you will essentially be directed to 27 different sites for each country. It is utterly mind-boggling. And, again, I go back to that point: an artist who has no administrative help or who has somebody one day a week, it is just impossible. So, clarity of guidance, a one-stop shop, more support in helping people adapt to the rules—all of those things would be useful.

Thank you so much. All of this information is really useful, and it's so good to hear from you. What you've said also tallies with some of the musicians that we listened to at the Other Voices festival in Pembroke. So, thank you so much. What would be your best possible outcome, going forward?

Oh, goodness. Goodness. Well, I think, in the longer term, a much closer relationship with the EU in which we were part of the single market and the customs union would resolve all of this, but I fully understand that that's not how the vote went and that it will be some time before those things were—. So, I think, in the shorter term, the visa waiver agreement would make a big difference. Yes, that would be where I'd start.

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you.

One of the complications for us, when we're looking at these matters, is that some of the powers here that we're talking about are devolved, some of them are reserved. What do you think that the implications for this would be, specifically looking at devolved nations, please?

I wish I knew the answer to that; I'm afraid I don't. I'd be very interested to hear from some of your colleagues, so that I could take that information forward in conversation. So, if I could turn the question back—. I know it's more normal for witnesses to say they'll write to the committee, but I wonder whether there might be a colleague who could help me develop my awareness, so that I can better advocate for artists in Wales.

Thank you so much, and that is useful. In terms of, as you've spoken about, the complexity of this issue and in your dealings with the UK Government and the fact that it isn't all streamlined into one department either, what have been your experiences of trying to get through the maze of working out who you need to go to in order get different questions when, again, it just falls across so many different departmental lines?

No, I think you're absolutely right, and I think the more I've been involved, even in the management of big organisations, but certainly in looking at how Government works, it seems to me that any issue will only be solved by cross-departmental working, and yet the structures seem to pull so strongly against that. And what we have here, DCMS will be fronting much of this, but, of course, they don't hold the levers for issues of immigration or for the TCA, which sits under, as we've said, the FCDO, so it becomes, as you say, like navigating a maze and needing, really, to encourage multiple people to speak to each other. So, I think it's something we are all extremely familiar with, and part of me—because I love logic and systems—wishes that, when you pressed a button, things happened where they needed to happen, but you find, as you get older in life, that, no, you need to press multiple buttons in order to activate things. So, ensuring questions are asked of the right department is really important, because, as much as DCMS are trying to help artists here, actually, they don't have their hands on the levers to do so.

Thank you very much for that. We will move on to Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, and, I have to say, the more we talk about this issue, the more ridiculous it seems, and let's hope that common sense prevails. But I note that the recommendation was agreed at the parliamentary partnership assembly before Christmas, and I also note that Lord Ricketts was very complimentary of your role and your tireless advocacy in making sure that that happened. Could you maybe tell us a little bit about the development of the recommendation and also, of course, whether you've had any response from European colleagues, from the UK Government and the European Commission?

We haven't yet had the response, but we've been told it's coming, and it will be soon, because, of course, we're meeting again in March.

The recommendation—. I was really pleased that we made this formal recommendation. In previous meetings, we've had breakout groups and sent notes from the breakout groups, but they weren't actually recommendations. And here I think there are crossovers, if you like, between the interest in youth mobility, which was the other recommendation, and the recommendations on touring. So, although it would be lovely to think that one might press the famous button and this was resolved for all artists, I also recognise that, sometimes, you have to take the yellow-brick-road approach, step by step.

And I think there is interest across the EU and the UK, of course, in young people. We all know that young people suffered disproportionately during the pandemic. They lost out in so many ways. They will be the ones who will inherit our decision to leave the EU. They are impacted by the financial crisis. It seems right that one should focus on improving things where possible for young people, and we know that in the EU, they fully understand that unless they engage the youth in the European project, then they risk it breaking down in the future.

So, I think a youth mobility visa that allowed—and I would push the age limit—but allowed younger artists freedom to move and work in the EU would be great, and that was indeed for the first recommendation. We noted that the UK has some youth mobility arrangements, so there is precedent for it, and that indeed the EU has these arrangements with other countries. 

In terms of touring, we pretty much—. I'm just checking it here. We did talk about the impact of the multiple visa restrictions, and we did recommend, I think—. We used the word 'urge'. It's so interesting to see how the wording happens. But we urged the partnership council to prioritise the mobility of touring artists, with a view to developing a comprehensive approach. So, that was absolutely saying, 'Don't pick at the edges; go for'—in my language—'the visa waiver approach', which really harmonises the regulations across the 27 member states and, indeed, the UK, to allow that freedom of movement.

[Inaudible.] 

Okay. 

Thank you, Chair, and thanks ever so much for coming in online this morning. I just wanted to pick up a question, if I may, about that visa waiver option, because I know that was offered at the time with the negotiations, but it was rejected by the UK Government for a variety of reasons, I think—that it only covered ad hoc performances, it didn't cover touring or support staff. I just wanted to know whether or not those concerns still remain, because I know the European Commission said at the time it was a standard visa waiver that it offered to all third countries, and whether or not you're aware if the EU Commission is willing to bespoke it, as you mentioned. And just to get an idea of the conversations you've had with the Commission in terms of their views towards this, if that's okay. Thank you. 

Yes. I regret I haven't had any conversations with the Commission. At the PPA, we work parliamentarian to parliamentarian, so that's the level at which I'm pushing, which is for other parliamentarians to be promoting this upwards. We will never entirely know what went on in those negotiations. There were plentiful reports, and I think Politico carried quite a detailed report, although where that came from I don't know. I'm not a politician, I'm a parliamentarian, and that may show in my next response, but my view would be that the more we look backwards to who said what and why they said it, and so on and so on, the more we will get mired in the failure to actually do anything about it.

So, I think what we need to do now is focus on what is the impact of the current situation for artists in the UK and in the EU, is this what we intended, and if not, what should we do about it. On the visa waiver, I think what you're picking up on is, if the exemption is for sportspersons and artists, well, then, does that include the people that artists necessarily travel with? Maybe it does need a bit of bespoking. But it would be a win-win on both sides. It’s an important distinction.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you for that. So, we're awaiting a response to the recommendations. I'm not sure if I picked up a hopeful tinge initially in your answer to me earlier about a response. I'm not sure what the form is for responding to these kinds of recommendations. Are you hopeful that we're at the start of maybe something that will meaningfully have an impact or lead to change?

I suspect that the response—. The form for responding is that the partnership council will write back to the PPA and say, ‘Thank you for your recommendation’, and they will probably tell us either why it didn’t happen or why it can’t happen. I can’t imagine they’ll come back and say, ‘Oh my goodness, you’re absolutely right. Why didn’t we think of that?’ I think this is about—[Laughter.] You never know. This is about chipping away, this is about putting arguments into the conversation at the right time, with the evidence, and doing so repeatedly. I’d like to think we will get there, and that’s partly because I genuinely don’t think it was ever the intention that this was the point we should be at. I think it was people talking over each other and things getting missed out.

So, I do have a tinge of optimism, but I don’t think it’s going to be the letter back from the partnership council that is the final answer.

I fear that you're right. We never know. So, I'm just thinking, then: what role does Welsh Government have in furthering that cause? What do you think Welsh Government could contribute further, rather than just being an observer to the PPA? Is there something they could do to be a bit more proactive on that front? And also, maybe, similarly, given that we are where we are, what do you think Welsh Government could best do to support creative workers in Wales, given the situation that we face?

Gosh. I think, on the first point of what can we do, what can we all do, but what can the Government do, we need evidence of impact. We really do. So, the mechanisms to gather that evidence and present it, and keep it front of mind, particularly in—. There are so many demands on politicians’ time right now, and on their attention, and some of them are massive, but we need to find everywhere we can to put the evidence of impact in front of people, and to make sure it’s part of the conversation. So, empowering your Ministers to include this in the talking points, rather than it not being on the list. I think these things matter. So, I would definitely keep channels open to your arts sector, so that you know what’s going on, and you can feed it upwards. Take the time to do that.

Supporting the arts right now, it is such a challenging time for arts organisations, I think. The impact of COVID and the closing of venues and so on, I think we’re still working through the impact of that. I don’t think things have quite come back to normal. There are massive pressures. EU funding has gone, of course, and that was massively important for some arts organisations. It has not, of course, been entirely replaced. Local authorities are absolutely stretched with other demands, so it is really difficult for artists.

I think creating opportunities for joining up and networking and development seems to be really important. The sector will do that itself to an extent, but finding ways in which that can be supported, so that particularly artists who are, as I said earlier, in very small groups or working alone are not alone. I think those things can be useful, but also keeping arts and culture on the agenda in the conversation—not pushing it to the borders.

Going back to the conversation I had with the Chair at the beginning, it has become normal to justify arts and culture through the economic contribution, through the contribution to jobs and through their role in innovation, and those things are all very important, and I do that myself a lot—I think it's a valid way of justifying them—but we shouldn't forget, too, their role in communities, in our personal lives, in our hinterland, where we go for resilience, strength and so on. These things are as important; they're much harder to quantify and it can get awfully waffly when you talk about it, but, actually, they really do matter. It's great if it's not just people like me who are saying those things, but it's people, may I say, like you—people in the seats of power.

I've been very heartened by hearing Nathalie Loiseau at the parliamentary partnership assembly. She is—gosh—she's one of the chairs, or is she a vice-chair? I think she's a co-chair—she's a co-chair—and sometimes she will talk about the role of the arts and the importance of it, and it could be me speaking. She's saying the things that I think and I feel about it, which is absolutely wonderful. It is very powerful when it comes from politicians, so, I think, don't underestimate the impact that it will have when you all speak up for, speak to and speak with the sector.

Thank you, and I know that that's a responsibility that we're very aware of, as a committee, and one of the reasons that we're pursuing this and keeping it on the agenda, as you mentioned. One of our hopes and our intentions here is to build on much of the work that you've been doing, and others like you, and some of the heavy lifting that's been happening on your side, but with the added dimension of devolution, of course, and identifying, maybe particularly, the role and the contribution that we, as a Senedd, and the Welsh Government can make and should be making. So, really, any advice to us around, maybe, some of the lessons that you've learnt on your journey so far and the work that you've done, and anything that, maybe, we could emulate or shouldn't emulate—you tell us.

I think I could probably learn more from you, to be honest, but I think one thing I've learnt, and I don't know whether this is relevant at all, is the importance of balancing narrative and data. I don't know whether this is relevant, but as somebody who grew up and emerged through, essentially, a narrative art form, I became utterly obsessed with data and evidence, you know, almost to the exclusion—. And, actually, what really resonates is when the two are combined in the right way. So, the importance of storytelling, which, of course, you have a long and brilliant history in—in storytelling—but combined with data and evidence. I think that's something that I'm learning—have learnt—and I guess the other point that I've learnt is to recognise that you won't get everything at once, and to recognise that reaching your north star may sometimes mean going left a bit, right a bit, straight, roundabout and, oops, back again. But, hold on to the north star and you will get there. So, those are things I've learnt, but I think those are things that you, as politicians, will absolutely know. I would go back and say that gathering and highlighting the impact on artists in Wales would be great, because people, not just like me, we would draw on it; we would incorporate that and tell those stories.

Thank you—

Sorry, there is one other question—it may be just a broader question, really. I was listening to a very prominent Welsh musician, who was speaking on television this week, Peredur ap Gwynedd—he's a guitarist with Pendulum, which is a globally renowned rock band—and he was explaining, basically, that it's annihilated their touring and their ability to take their music across Europe, which is something that they've done for many years and that they have done up until they found themselves in these circumstances. He actually said, in relation to the way it's impacted on his ability to work and his industry, that Brexit is the worst thing that's happened to Britain since the second world war. Do you sympathise with that view, because, clearly, for him to feel that, it tells us a lot, doesn't it?

Yes, I think it has been devastating for artists and for the sector. Everybody—not everybody, but a vast majority talk about loss of income, loss of work, loss of connections, and we are seeing people leaving the sector, we are seeing artists giving up on it and deciding to do something else. And if somebody who is, as you said, in a renowned band—and therefore one's going to imagine they have some resources—if he is saying that, imagine what it is like for—. I think of those artists who were just about to break through in 2018, 2019 and then they had the double hit—COVID closed down all of the venues they would have been working in, and then they find that they can't tour.

I think we have lost, I won't say a generation, but we have lost a significant tranche of talent that we will never know about because of that terrible double-whammy, actually, of the impact of COVID and then the impact of Brexit. So, yes, I do sympathise and I'm really grateful to you as a committee for being focused on this issue and for giving me the opportunity to come and give you my thoughts on it today.

Thank you.

Thank you ever so much. And, Baroness Bull, what you were saying there in terms of a generation—well, almost a generation—that we will never know about, when we went to the Other Voices festival, their tagline is looking at the creative art that is about to be created as well as those things that are about to disappear. And I think that in the inquiry that we're undertaking here, we're very aware of those in-between things—the things that are about to go and that we want desperately to find some hope for and to learn from those things that have been lost as well. So, you've enriched our understanding incredibly in this time. So, thank you ever so much, we really appreciate your evidence.

I know that you've said that you'd like to hear more from us about the devolved context and we can send that information to you. We can ask the Senedd parliamentary partnership assembly representatives to feed that back to you in the next meeting in March, if that would help.

That would be hugely helpful, thank you. I'd really appreciate that.

Thank you ever so much. Diolch yn fawr iawn. That's been very, very useful for us. We will be sending a transcript to you to check that it's a fair record of what's been said, but thank you ever so much. We really appreciate your time this morning. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. Thank you to you all.

Thank you very much indeed.

Goodbye.

Goodbye.

Chair.

Yes, Carolyn.

Sorry to come in there, but just regarding the national underground asset register, would that be going to other committees as well—the Climate Change, Environment and Infrastructure Committee? I know Llyr is here and he's the Chair of the committee.

We can check that, Carolyn. That's a good question. We'll check that.

Thank you for raising that.

Hello. My name is Ruth Cocks, and I am director of the British Council here in Wales. 

Lovely. Tom. 

I'm Tom Kiehl. I'm the interim chief executive officer of UK Music, which is the umbrella body for the music industry, representing all the various component parts and creator organisations, collecting societies, music publishers and record companies. 

Lovely. Thank you so much. 

Shall I go first?

Sure, certainly. Thank you. The EU is the biggest market for the music industry. It accounts for around 50 per cent of creator incomes, so that's a significant proportion. What we have found from analysing—. We've done some recent surveys in the last couple of years to ascertain the impact of Brexit on the music industry and creators in particular. We looked at it in terms of engagements and work opportunities and also in terms of incomes, and what we've seen is that one in three people who responded to our survey—these are musicians, creators—have seen their incomes impacted by Brexit, and, of those, 82 per cent have seen significant decreases. So, it has already had a very profound and damaging impact on a vast amount of creators and musicians and their ability to tour. So, that is obviously significant for us as a sector. In addition to that, we've also worked with an organisation, the Independent Society of Musicians—they have also done a recent survey that indicated that 47 per cent of people are now receiving less work than they did prior to Brexit. So, again, in terms of opportunity to work, that is really significant, and 27 per cent of those people are actually saying that they don't have any work opportunities at all now, it's simply dried up. So, the impact of Brexit on our sector is profound.

We don't have specific figures in terms of the granular level in terms of the Welsh impact, but it's something that we can work with and maybe provide the committee with at a subsequent point. I would say that the actual Welsh sector—putting the Welsh sector in context—pre pandemic, there was a survey that indicated that the Welsh music industry is worth around £243 million in gross value added to the economy and also employs around 8,000 people, and the live sector is worth something like £115 million in terms of that. So, a significant sector and one we all want to continue to ensure flourishes.

Thank you so much, Tom. Before I bring Llyr Gruffydd in, who's got a supplementary, while you were both speaking, we were joined by some very welcome guests, Dr Paul Thompson, chairman of the British Council and Kate Ewart-Biggs OBE, deputy chief executive of the British Council. You're very welcome to be with us, in the gallery, this afternoon. Thank you very much for being with us. Now, I know that Llyr had a question.

I mean, certainly, in terms of the sample side, that was significant—it was over 2,000 people, which I think is a statistically significant survey. So, I think that's pretty robust. Yes, we probably have the data, we just need to analyse it a little bit more to draw out the particular regional variances, so I think the raw materials are there and we can provide that further.

Diolch. Before we move on to Carolyn—

Ruth, I know you wanted to come in.

Well, it's a simiar point, really. Obviously, there's a loss of funds, and it's not just programmes like Creative Europe, but also the structural funds from which the arts and culture sector in Wales profited greatly—we've got some statistics on that, if you're interested—and the rural development plan as well. So multisources of funding, but it's also around the connection with peers and the insights, the creativity and the innovation you get through those cross-programme-working multicountry, multipartner, insights into another culture, connections with other countries, small nations in the EU who are bilingual, like us, who have more similarities with Wales in terms of small nations. Those kinds of cross-peer learning and informal networks are invaluable, and our evidence suggests that the generation I grew up in has these informal networks because we were part of these EU programmes. However, the current generation won't have that and, in 10 years' time, they will have died out, as well as the loss of formal networks. The British Council is still a member of EU National Institutes for Culture, but we've had to change our status, for example. We're still a member of other formal networks that were part of the EU, but, often, the status is changed, the financing changes, and then that makes a difference. So, it's not just the funding; it's the informal networks, as well as the life experience that comes with that, and then, of course, the formal networks that we're just not a part of in the same way as we were.

Thank you. Were you indicating that you wanted to come in, Tom?

Just to add to that, from our perspective, particularly from the commercial sector, the bigger organisations, the bigger acts will find workarounds, and I think that's something that needs to be stressed. Obviously, bureaucracy increases and costs increase, but I think one of the big challenges is for the up-and-coming acts and those who actually don't have those established fan bases. Previously, they had that ease of movement, going over to Europe, and were able to perform with limited bureaucracy and costs going behind it. I think that's one of our big—. In terms of opportunity loss, the fact is that it's a smaller opportunity for people in Wales and elsewhere.

Thank you.

Thank you. Could you quantify what the increased administrative burden and financial burden look like?

I've got individual examples in our submission. We work with a number of partners, who also, I think, submitted separately—NoFit State circus, for example, and BBC National Orchestra of Wales. Some of the key areas that have changed are things like preparing a carnet, particularly for companies that have large equipment, big pieces of instruments, et cetera, to use. So, I think NoFit State said that they have estimated a £28,000 increase in human resource and insurance against indemnities for taking their carnet across, and it took six people three weeks to prepare just for one tour.

In terms of visas, because of the 90-day, 180-day rule and how you have to come back to the country before being able to do that, they weren't able to extend certain tours that they would have done for summer bookings, and that led to a loss of income of about £120,000 and a reduced gross profit of the tour of about £40,000.

Equally, employing EU nationals to work in Wales has increased—they have a sponsoring status, and they had that before for non-EU nationals; they now have it for EU nationals. But even things like health insurance, which was covered previously via the EU, they're estimating £1,305 per person, per employee. Ultimately, their touring has witnessed a 40 per cent reduction in profit margins. I've got more, but I will hand over, because I know that's just one example.

I'd like to talk about orchestras, and they've had this issue with cabotage, the rules around cabotage and the number of movements that trucks can do. A lot of those orchestras own their own fleet, and so, actually, under the cabotage rules, can no longer operate as they had previously. So, they're having to find workarounds for that, and that's costing something like £20,000 in addition for an orchestra to tour the EU in order to be able to travel and make the stops necessary.

In addition to that area, like carnets, just to illustrate some of the further points, and I think this is a Welsh-specific example too, Holyhead doesn't have a designated carnet port. Certainly, the port itself does not have a designated place where the carnets can be processed, so they have to be processed elsewhere. So, if you're a band or an artist, you've got to book in advance, and that will, obviously, have the increase—that has to be 24 hours, I think, before you actually embark on your journey. So, going from Holyhead to Dublin and the kind of touring aspect there, that is significant.

Thank you.

Carolyn, I think Eluned just wanted to add something.

Yes, the other thing I would say as well is the additional burden on the public purse in Wales to just be able to support our artists to carry on being members of networks, as Ruth rightly said. We're really prioritising keeping the membership of IETM, On the Move, Culture Action Europe, and I could reel off a number of other networks and showcase events that we support artists to attend. But, obviously, in the past, dancers like Jones the Dance would have had their funding from Creative Europe. Our companies and our individuals who used to have money coming directly to them from Creative Europe now apply to us in the Arts Council of Wales for that funding, and we are unable to sustain the level of demand to keep our artists involved.

Ruth, did you want to come back in?

Yes, going back to the point around orchestras, from conversations with BBC National Orchestra of Wales, they have to now pay quite expensive experts under the CITES rule, to verify the kind of wood that’s in each instrument, which comes at a cost—every single piece of equipment has to have a certificate to say there are no endangered species et cetera, whereas, previously, musicians could kind of clearly walk on. Also, there was a good example where they performed in Germany, and the rules around taxation and income tax just weren’t clear, and so they were in conversations with the German Government about tax that had been withheld. So, they hadn’t received their full pay for a performance, and it’s just a complicated area where the rules aren’t clear, and each individual artist is having to negotiate with each individual country and what the agreement was with that country with the UK Government. In NoFit State’s case, I think they went back to an agreement from 1990, when they were working with the Czech Republic, because that was the most recent agreement they could find around taxing parameters and working with the Czech Republic.

Gosh. Diolch. Did you have another question, Carolyn?

No, no, thank you. You said you had more data and statistics, but more than you can actually speak on at the moment, so we’d welcome any extra, if you’d like to send it to us for us to look at afterwards. Thank you very much.

Diolch, Carolyn. Yes, please, if you could send that through in writing, that would be very useful.

I just wanted to go back to the original question around the finance impact, because I don't think there is research that shows particularly one part of the sector or part of the stage of the career. We have anecdotal evidence that, potentially, obviously, smaller artists, individual artists, are more affected by the costs. However, the larger organisations with the big equipment—the circuses, the orchestras—are very much affected, and the music industry.

I think, in 2021, we commissioned a report with the Welsh Government, Creative Scotland, the British Film Institute and Arts Council England, and it was around the impact of the withdrawal of Creative Europe, and it said that, financially, people said that, of the participating firms in that, 63 per cent of them claimed to be more profitable, 76 per cent of them claimed to be more resilient financially, 86 per cent of them claimed to be more competitive in Europe, and 77 per cent claimed to have achieved a higher turnover when they were part of Creative Europe. So, we do have statistics like that specifically.

On the Erasmus/Taith question, I think it is right that the Welsh Government have made huge efforts to offer an alternative mobility programme where Erasmus was, and that hasn't happened necessarily in the arts. And there are benefits to Erasmus—a Welsh offer for Welsh people. There's a lot that's been done on access to those opportunities and bringing in a more inclusive beneficiary to those programmes. I think, if you're in Wales, you feel that you've got more of a chance of getting an opportunity through Taith, because, as I said, it's uniquely Welsh. However, I think, across the board, the sector are telling us in Wales that if that money could be put into Erasmus, there would still be a demand for that in terms of scale of networks, in terms of scale of funding, in terms of the size of the programme. But I think there are arguments on both sides, so it will be interesting to see where the Welsh Government land on that in the future.

I do not have that data. I don't know whether Eluned does.

I think there have been movements to compensate for the exit from the EU, and therefore there has been great movement in Wales with offers for Welsh artists—Sinema Cymru, for example. There are some good examples of where Creative Wales have pulled together 35 participants for tv and the creative industries. I don't think it compensates for the loss, and there isn't a study that I'm aware of on the comparative loss of funding and networks from the withdrawal from the EU, through Creative Europe and various other funds we mentioned earlier, versus the amount of money that then has subsequently been put into Wales through the prosperity fund, through various initiatives through the Welsh Government to compensate for that. I don't think we have the net balance of what that would look like. So, whereas there have been positive moves and you'll see things starting to flourish, I think it's compensating for a greater loss. So, I couldn't tell you whether there was a net benefit. I don't think so, from my understanding of our work, but Eluned—.

Tom, did you want to come in?

I wanted to come back to Creative Europe, if that's all right, but I don't know if you want to—. 

The only thing I would say, to pick up on what Ruth was saying, is that we've had to rethink how we work with the world, and I think redefining what that international work is is important—thinking about how we work in other places that we've not been taking for granted, maybe, like we've taken the European Union for granted. But, the additional cost of working somewhere like India, for example, or Australia, the States, also brings considerable pressure on travel and resources—and Asia. So, I'd say that I think it has forced us to think more globally.

Tom.

What I wanted to say about Creative Europe, and this is probably looking at it primarily from the more commercial sector than other slightly more subsidised arts—Creative Europe was undoubtedly a good thing and something that should support the sector, and this is, obviously, a very music-specific example—I don't think we made enough of it whilst we were members of the European Union. We did hear of people having trouble accessing it, and that may be just because the way it was designed, in some ways trying to bring some of the other member states to make their music industries maybe more aligned, like the UK one. So, not so much, necessarily, that there's a defined benefit there, but in terms of seeing that it was working properly in the way it could potentially do for the music industry, I do know that there were definitely some frustrations around that area. So, I wouldn't want it to be seen, necessarily, as a kind of panacea, at least for our sector, notwithstanding other cultural and creative arts.

Just in terms of other Brexit potentials, if you don't mind me—. One area we do annual data on is around music tourism and people coming over to the UK for gigs and festivals. Wales had £218 million to the Welsh economy generated via music tourism, and 30,000 of that was from overseas people. And that has actually increased since the pandemic.

Thirty thousand—

Thirty thousand people coming over, primarily for gigs and—

Sorry, I thought that £30,000 out of £218 million isn't what I was hoping for. 

No, £218 million was the economic benefit. 

I see. Yes.

Thank you, Chair. Thanks ever so much for coming in this afternoon. I know we've briefly touched upon it in other discussions that we've had here, but I wanted to talk about trading arrangements. But, if I may, Chair, I just want to ask a couple of questions, and I think the first one is probably best to Tom. I know, last year, UK Music did a survey of artists in terms of the impact—and it's purely just for my own information and curiosity, really—and I know that about 18 per cent came back and said, 'Well, actually, our income has increased since Brexit'. Why is that? Why have they benefited, then, and so many others haven't?

I think that's a very good question and I don't have a defined answer, unfortunately. I guess it's how people interpreted the question we asked. I guess, potentially, like, small—. There are people who are doing less touring. If people are instinctively not going there, then it reduces the pool, I guess, or the number of people who can actually go and perform, or work as well, because it may not necessarily be people performing; it could be crew as well. So, there will be an element of that. But, I mean, we were genuinely surprised by that outcome too, to be honest.

Yes, because, you know, in the grand scheme of things, it's probably not, but it is quite a high percentage, really—not in comparison to the 43, but—. Not the 43, the 82.

Yes.

The other one I wanted to ask, then—. I remember last year, I read an article online about the impact that artists, because of the European law about the—. It's estimated they lose up to about 40 per cent of their income from American radio, from American tours and that, because of EU laws. That sort of piqued my curiosity in terms of, like, when we talk about royalties and income from radio airplay and all that—. Has there been much impact there since leaving Brexit, then, on that sort of aspect?

I mean, they've largely been sort of unaffected because, I guess, they're kind of agreements that existed outside of—. They were negotiations done by the rights holders in the UK and, whether they're in the EU or not, they're not necessarily untangled by it. I guess there is a sort of slight complexity to it, but, in terms of that side of things, it's not changed significantly, no. One of the issues is around copyright, and there are private copying levies and the payment of that, and that's actually not something we've provided for here previously in the UK, whereas, in the EU, they did. So, I think there are some question marks around that, however.

Okay. Perfect. And then, obviously, just to go back to sort of like the trading arrangements, and on the—.

Sorry, it's a loop, so, when I speak, it's feeding back into my hearing aid and it's quite disorientating, actually, especially when I think, 'Oh, do I really sound like that?'

We all get that about our own voices—don't worry.

Okay, thanks. About the creative industries on the whole, then, have you seen much impact, then—? Were you able to quantify, prior to Brexit, the impact that it's had, I suppose, since Brexit, on the creative industries—the trading arrangements on the whole, then? It's not so much musicians, per se, but, you know, you mentioned it before, about the commercial services that weren't necessarily promoted as much as they could have been when we were in the EU.

I'll have to think about that, sorry. I mean, regulatory alignment—. There is an issue now with things like copyright and IP, particularly with the growth of things like artificial intelligence, which is a big concern to the sector. What we're seeing there is actually you're seeing laws getting into place in the EU, and there's a risk that if we don't put the same sort of protections in the UK there is a divergence, and, particularly on copyright, our existing framework is very much derived from EU law, so that is a significant challenge where that continues. So, I guess regulatory alignment with our biggest market is an issue, and, as the legislation changes, then that can only grow further apart.

Chair, I think most of the other questions were answered by the other answers.

Okay, diolch. Did either of you want to add anything to Joel's question?

Yes. I think the point around protectionism is one that is global, not just with the European Union. Visas for the States have become increasingly costly and difficult, and, of course, the cost for people to come into the UK as well, and how people come in. So, the issue of protectionism globally is one that we've got to keep our eyes open about. But I would add to that and say that the role of companies like Focus Wales, who provide platforms for emerging talent to be presenting their work internationally at places like South by Southwest and others, those are things that are becoming increasingly difficult because of visa costs and visa issues in the States. This is not just an European issue. But, yes, it's one to look at.

Okay, diolch. Are you happy? Lovely. Okay, diolch. Diolch, Joel. Looking at guidance and support, to what extent would artists and performers in the cultural sector need bespoke advice, or would you say that the needs of the guidance and advice would be different or distinct from other industries?

I think they're different and distinct even within the arts themselves, you know, because what a visual artist will need or what a gallery might need is going to be very different from what a musician needs, and whether they tour and go to multiple countries or whether they go to one venue with one piece of art. So, I think there's a need to be able to support artists but to also make it clear that that responsibility is something that we now have to take as companies, as individuals, as nations. The world is a complex place and, as you heard this morning, our artists are struggling to navigate 27 countries and the systems in 27 countries. But there is no simple way of addressing that. This is one thing that we're finding through the provision of Arts Infopoint UK. Arts Infopoint UK is set up to support international artists coming into the UK, and our companies in Wales and the UK, to support that to happen. We're very dependent on the other countries to tell us about what's going on in their own country, and, heaven forbid, when an election happens, rules change in every country. So, you know, I can understand why there is confusion, because it's complicated.

Also, we were talking to the UK Government in Westminster about trying to develop some kind of a hub, because it's really complicated, the actual information that they have on their website. It doesn't really signpost things properly, it's really confusing if you're a musician who just needs to know the basics, and it's not written in a user-friendly language. It got so far, but then they kind of lost interest after a while, which was a bit unfortunate. But, obviously, the work that you're doing is brilliant in that regard. But more bespoke data or more bespoke information being presented in a clear, accessible form, with videos, and talking to people in a language that they would understand, can only be a good thing.

I would just echo that. I think there's no one-stop shop for it all, and my experience from talking to our sector partners is that they'll go to various different sources to try and find the specific information that they need, and whether that be—. I think, in one case, they had to enlist the help of a local MP to try and understand the tax regulations in a very specific country, having gone to the various different sources. And like you said, it's complex—it's 27 countries. There's no provision for arts and culture under the agreement that the UK has with the EU, so then it's based on individual country agreements, and that's extremely complicated and very niche, like you say, depending on the type of artistry, depending on the type of equipment you're bringing. 

I think less—. It's not less complicated in student mobility and youth exchange, there's still complications there, but the added complication, if you like, of instruments, of equipment and the things we've talked about—the tax levies, the carnets, the certification—that is really complex, and it will vary from sector to sector, within profession to profession within the arts sector, possibly in a more complex way than it would in other areas of the demographic that are just doing student/youth exchange or youth mobility. 

But, yes, echoing that infopoint is doing a really good job, but I think it just can't cover everything. 

And in terms of how the Welsh and UK Governments gather information about the effect of all of these things that you're setting out, the effect that this is having on culture, what's your understanding of how they are doing that, and do you feed into that process of how they are gathering that information? And, if so, is your main point of contact the Deputy Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism here, or the Minister for Economy, or would it tend to be that there would be some things that you'd go more to the UK Government for?

Lots of different haenau—layers—to that one question. Ruth. 

I can speak from our perspective. We are a non-departmental public body, but our sponsoring department, therefore, is the Foreign Office. And so we will provide statistics and experience and insights, as and when asked by the Foreign Office, with direct relationship, and also with the Department for Education and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and also with the Cabinet Office and the Department for Business and Trade. So, largely with the UK Government. I don't feed in, we don't feed in, to the Welsh Government. We're happy to, but that would be our formal way, through our sponsoring body, and then as requested, as well as parliamentary inquiries like this that happen in Westminster that come up and that we submit evidence to. That's the way we would normally interact on those points.

Thank you. Tom.

Sure. From our perspective, similarly, our main dialogue is with DCMS and other Government departments in Westminster. There was a lot of activity after the trade and co-operation agreement came out, and a lot of meetings were set up, which did bring, I think, people from devolved administrations and Governments, and unfortunately that kind of fizzled out, I think, towards the end of that—2021, it would have been—kind of work. So, that was quite good at the time because it did sort of help co-ordination. So, I think, certainly, reintroducing something like that—.

I'd also add that we're part of something called the domestic advisory group, which I think—I know—came up in the earlier session. However, not only is Wales very under-represented on it, culture is generally too. UK Music and another organisation called Live, which represents the live sector, we're the only two cultural organisations on the domestic advisory group. So, to an extent, we can really—. It's not a Government thing, but Government administers it, it provides the secretariat, it enables the meetings to take place, and it's something that's part of the trade and co-operation agreement too, that the domestic advisory group exists. So, again, that is another channel that we have to discuss some of these issues with them.

Diolch. Diolch, Tom. I think Robin was going to ask me to ask something, but no—. Was there something we needed to check?

It would be interesting to see if they've had any contact with the FCDO.

Yes. Have you had any—? I don't know if you heard Robin there, if you've had any contact with the FCDO.

Sporadically. It's quite a hard department to really penetrate on these things. Quite often we've found that we make approaches to other departments and then all roads go back to DCMS or something like that, so it's kind of a bit—. The snakes and ladders of Whitehall.

Well, it's an extension of the metaphor that Baroness Bull used with us this morning: she was talking about a 'yellow brick road' approach to doing things sometimes.

Sorry, Ruth, did you want to come back in again?

No.

No.

Thank you. Previously, you've mentioned access to funding programmes and networks. Wales Arts International have called for the UK to rejoin Creative Europe, so would the other panellists support this view, and what benefits would there be from joining, if that was possible, besides the financial or access to funds through that body?

Tom.

Just to my earlier answer, I'd very much support it. The kind of thing I would develop in that is trying to maybe work more closely with the music sector in how it can really present a compelling case to those making those decisions as to how we can access those funds. But it certainly would be a good thing for cultural life generally and, obviously, music has an impact on other art forms as well, and we want to see that.

As an NDPB it's not our role to advise UK Government on what to do. However, our sector partners would very much welcome that—that's been made clear across the board in Wales, but also across our networks in the EU nations. We still have a really strong network of our offices in 27 countries, and our partners are telling us that they very much miss the UK presence and the expertise that the UK brought to programmes like Creative Europe, and we've got some examples of where we're still—. We're now co-funding projects to make sure that the UK remains in some of the projects that we previously ran, and there are ways that we do that. But the loss of Creative Europe has been felt by everybody, I think, and particularly the areas of expertise, like arts and disability, that the UK brought to the table.

In terms of the benefits, we've talked about it: formal networks, informal networks, the funding loss—again, I can submit the statistics on what Wales did receive under Creative Europe—and how that relates to the rest of the UK. But, yes, the intangible elements that we talked about—. There's the bread and butter of what the British Council do, which is around connections and understanding and trust between countries and people overseas and the UK and Wales, everything from travel and insight and language and creation and innovation that comes from that, being part of those peer work networks that Wales no longer is part of. And Eluned mentioned earlier some of the networks we used to lead from Wales, and just not having those connections and how isolating that can be, as well as, obviously, the obvious funding benefits that we had through programmes like Creative Europe, but other other fundings as well, can't be underestimated from our partners. But, like I say, it's felt from both sides, both from the UK, Wales included, obviously, and then from the rest of Europe in terms of what we brought to the table.

If I may just add to that—

It must be frustrating, because you've got relations and expertise over the years, when we were a big part of Europe, and then losing that. Are there any other programmes or networks it would be a priority to join, if possible, for Wales or the UK?

Eluned.

Yes. If I can just pick up on the Creative Europe point a little bit more, it's worth noting that the budget for Creative Europe has gone up substantially in this budget round and so what we're missing out on is even greater. The other thing is that Arts Infopoint UK comes a little bit to address it, but it doesn't do any justice, really, to the network that we've lost in the form of what the Creative Europe desk was, which was based here in Wales. We seconded a member of staff from the arts council to be based at Creative Wales, and that worked alongside the media programme as well as the culture programme. Katie was invited to attend all the Creative Europe desk gatherings. When they would go to different things, we would have somebody from Wales who would feed that back to the sector applying and make the connections. When you haven't got that any more, it does reduce your ability to open those doors. So, I think that important role of having the advice on the ground here, connected to international networks—.

In terms of other networks, we are still very much active, and more active in many ways, in On the Move. We were the only members from the UK back in 2011, but by now Arts Council England have joined and the network has grown considerably, and that is a network of networks, if you like. So, there are networks like Artists at Risk Connection, who are really important with situations of war in Ukraine and so on and so forth, that we are now able to engage in conversations in a way, maybe, that we wouldn't have done before. But I would say also that every art form has its network, and more importantly, maybe, for us here in Wales as well, are networks like arts and health networks, creative learning networks, where we have a particular agenda or a focus on sustainability and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and those things. We are finding that those are actually determining new networks for us. 

That's interesting. You've said that extra funding has gone in to Creative Europe this year. Is it because the EU believe that the creative arts are a bigger priority than what the UK may be thinking? Are you finding that? 

It was an agreement across all of the 27 member states and it's for a period of seven years, so it's not just this year, it's for the budgeting period. 

I found that with European funding when it's come through over the years—the importance of the creative industries and sense of place and communities. It really covered that side of things, and the arts. 

Ruth wanted to come in. 

It was just the stat on that. It's my understanding it's increased by 66 per cent to €2.44 billion. 

Wow. That's worth noting. 

I've got an additional statistic from a report that states that, had we not exited the EU, the UK's creative industries may have received—it says 'may have received', but it is a report of evidence—an additional €184 million. That's a British Film Institute report. 

Thank you for all the data. It's really useful for us. I think that's it for my questions, Chair. 

Diolch, Carolyn. I think that Eluned might want to add something as well. 

I wanted to pay tribute to companies in the sector who are really taking memberships of networks seriously, such as Disability Arts Cymru, who have created a European network of their own for disability arts, and who've been really trailblazing some amazing work against the odds, funded through different—. It's by hook or by crook that people are doing it, and that is not sustainable in the long term with the bigger picture of cuts that we've got going on in Wales. 

I think Tom and Ruth wanted to add final points. 

My point is really about how important it is to sustain these networks. Because ultimately, the visa waiver agreements we get and other things around cultural touring agreements—these sorts of things we're calling for—will only work if people from the other side in Europe are actually calling for that as well. Given we've exited and had that settlement, you need to get people back. So, establishing new networks, I think, is incredibly key in this, too. 

It was just to pick up on Eluned's point that when we were part of Creative Europe, we ran a programme called Europe Beyond Access from 2018 to 2023. It was a €2 million programme across seven countries, and it worked with the likes of Hijinx in Wales and Disability Arts Cymru. We are now not able to be a main part of that—we led the consortium—but we have chosen to be an associate partner. That means putting in money of our own to just retain that position in the programme, and try to enable that door for the UK, in an area where we're considered specialist, to be part of that programme. But it was considered groundbreaking. The evidence shows it reached 3.8 million people, and it was considered a huge success. So, to have to step back from that and not be in a lead position anymore, and actually pay to be part of the programme, is one of the case studies we've got on the impact. 

Diolch. Thank you for that. We have just over a minute left and there's only a small question from Llyr at the end. 

Yes, a small question, but there might be long answers. [Laughter.] 

Because of our position with Government, it's a difficult one to answer. I would say what we hear about re-entry into different programmes—Creative Europe has been one, there's talk of Erasmus. I know from the sector they've talked about visa waivers, for example, to try and eliminate some of those costs. From our perspective, we have offices in all 27. We work with all 27 EU countries still, and there's a huge demand for creative education, for education for arts and culture still, and we don't have a lot of money to be able to fulfil that demand because it's classed as non-official development assistance work. So, more funding in those areas. The demand is there; it's just the way our funding works that we can't do it. And the loss of EU funds and the way we would be able to run programmes like Erasmus before has been huge. So, I think those would be my three key points. 

From my perspective, on what we call a cultural touring agreement, there is an absence of agreement over the existing arrangement. It covers work permits, visas, things like cabotage, carnets, CITES, merchandise, all these kinds of issues. Having some concerted effort to actually get something achieved on those in that regard is what we're after.