National Assembly for Wales

Prynhawn da. Welcome to the Equality and Social Justice Committee. All Members are present, so I've had no apologies. Are there any declarations of interest on matters on the agenda? I don't see any. 

We'll go straight into a resumption of our inquiry into the implementation of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. I'm very pleased to welcome Jane Hutt, the Minister for Social Justice and Chief Whip, and a group of her ministerial officials. Minister, if I can just start off, we've obviously had your very detailed report, and we note that the anti-racist action plan annual report has just been published. We haven't had more time to do more than literally skim over it. So, we may need to write to you about any specifics on that. Can I just start by asking you what sets this particular action plan apart from previous plans to tackle race inequality, which sadly has been with us since the beginning of the Senedd?

Thank you very much, Chair. It's very interesting looking back to previous discussions. We were, in fact, working on developing a race equality action plan back in 2019. I do think a very material factor, in terms of us shifting our determination and commitment to tackle racism, was the pandemic, because, obviously, we moved into the pandemic in 2020 and started very quickly realising the huge adverse impact on black, Asian and minority ethnic people in terms of getting COVID and dying from COVID. And the impact it was having led us to work on a socioeconomic impact report, workforce risk assessments, setting up an advisory group by the First Minister and working with black, Asian and minority ethnic people to address the impact of the pandemic on the lives of black, Asian and minority ethnic people. So, it made us determined, as we were working through that and working with black and minority ethnic people, to be much clearer about a commitment to tackle systemic institutional racism and help progress this with black, Asian and minority ethnic people. That's how we came out of that from a race equality plan, which was going to be a very important document, into a much clearer commitment in our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' to address that systemic institutional racism and to recognise also that this needed to address every aspect of life in Wales—public, private, third sector. It had to address our public services, it had to address our employment work and policies, it had to really address issues about representation in public life, it had to address education, clearly—every aspect of life. So, it's a much more bold vision of achieving an anti-racist Wales.

I think the bold vision that you have is very much welcome. In your paper, you say that, on the external accountability group, which meets bi-monthly, you've got eight external anti-racism experts and 11 community representatives. How have the 11 community representatives been selected or elected? 

Well, they were all recruited through an open and transparent process. The co-production of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', I think, was very new and innovative and different from ways in which policy plans, perhaps, have been developed in the past. So, just learning from that experience where we gave funding to community groups to help us to develop the plan—. We funded people to be mentors to senior civil service as well, and they had a huge impact on policy making, and we wanted to continue this with the external accountability group by having these anti-racist experts and people with lived experience. They were openly recruited, and, actually, I went to the first meeting of the external accountability group. I think it was in January of this year. And, of course, it includes people from outside of Wales as well as inside of Wales. It was really important that we got people who were going to hold us to account. And the external accountability group—and you know we've got an internal accountability support group as well—is co-chaired by Professor Emmanuel Ogbonna, who was the author of our socioeconomic report during the pandemic. And to co-chair it with the Permanent Secretary demonstrated our commitment to the whole of the Welsh public service led by the Welsh Government to drive this 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. It is very different, as I said, from ways in which we've had equality policy plans in the past, because this had to be about implementation. I mean, this was something where developing the plan was so interesting because people would say to us, 'Well, is this just going to be another plan?', and I remember this, during these discussions: 'Is it just going to be another plan? Is it actually going to be implemented? Is this going to be different? Is it going to be just another strategy?', and we knew that we had to have this governance structure, which was external accountability and within the Welsh Government as well, but putting people with lived experience absolutely at the forefront of leading this plan, for accountability. So, that's why I think the experts are quite formidable, aren't they? I would say, Riaz, you meet them—

I'm sure the experts are formidable, otherwise, they wouldn't be on your board. But what about these 11 community representatives? How do you know that there's a balance of the different ethnic groups, because, obviously, the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community is very different to the challenges facing the black or Asian communities?

We have a representative from the Gypsy, Roma, Traveller community, who is an extremely powerful advocate. But we also wanted a regional representation as well—for the whole of Wales to be represented. So, it was an open and transparent recruitment process, to reach out, as you say, to all black and ethnic minority community representation. Obviously, there are many other groups with lived experience as well who are influencing and implementing the plan. The external accountability group, for example, is calling on Ministers to come before them to account for—it's not just me—different policy areas, based on the plan, and, as I said, they're a formidable group of people. I'm very happy to share their names with you, if that would be helpful. It's transparent and open.

Excellent. Thank you.

Did you want to say something, Riaz?

I think, Minister, the instruction you've given to us that if we really wanted to be a representative example of the work we do, then we expect that from other people. We tried to have representation within the external accountability group, so we have people who are representing LGBTQ+, we have Gypsy, Roma, Traveller, we have people with different kinds of disabilities, we have people including the representation from different regions across Wales, and we have young people and older people's expertise.  

Excellent. We look forward to seeing who is on it.

We'll share the list.

Obviously, we have only an hour, so if we can all just keep our questions and answers short. My final question, before I move on to asking other people to come in, is: we obviously face a very challenging financial situation in all public services. David Pritchard from Social Care Wales told us that 80 per cent of this very ambitious plan can be delivered without resources, but that there are other areas that require extra financial intervention. How will you, the Minister in charge, ensure that the limited funding that you have is targeted at interventions that are most needed and where there'll be the greatest impact?

This, again, is a cross-Government 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', so we obviously have budgeted for it, but also it's budgeted across by all Ministers. I think you will be aware that the Welsh Government has had a culture grant scheme, which Diverse Cymru has been managing, with £2.8 million distributed to the cultural, heritage and sport sectors, but also funding by the Minister for housing in terms of the diversity and anti-racist professional learning training. Race Equality First—. This is actually about funding other organisations as well to help with the work for Business Wales. So, yes, it is a very constrained time of funding, but the budget key point—. I remember Professor Ogbonna saying that we must have the funding for this and it has to be across the whole Government. So, we have done everything that we can to meet that, but also, not just in terms of our own funding, of course—that means the teams, the staff, the implementation—but also others, organisations who can help us on delivering the anti-racist action plan. I've given you a couple of examples.

You're not going to be able to fund everything that you want to do. How are you going to determine which are the areas that are going to be your top priority?

It is a challenge, but we're committed to the plan. You'll see in the action plan annual report—and I know you've only just received it today—for every Minister, for every portfolio responsibility, there's a goal and a challenge as part of their reporting. Yes, they do recognise that there's a financial challenge. We have been very disadvantaged by the UK Government's cuts to our funding this year and then into next year, but this is a priority for the Welsh Government, so we've done and I've done everything I can to protect my funding base within the social justice budget. But, as I said, this is across the Welsh Government.

I think it's true, the comment that was made that the vast extent of the delivery of this is about cultural change. So, for example, also, just in terms of education, I've mentioned the diversity anti-racist professional learning—DARPL, as it's called—led by Cardiff Met university. This is helping deliver the new curriculum, because the curriculum is all about ethical, informed citizens. So, it absolutely fits in with every aspect of professional learning in schools. So, there's no option; it has to be—. We have to deliver this, even though we're constrained. This has to be about priorities.

Okay. Sioned Williams wanted to just come in.

Thank you very much. I don't like to use the word 'journey', but it is a journey to become an anti-racist nation, and it's a journey that the whole Government has committed itself to. I have to say, education is absolutely fundamental, and, as I said, it aligns with our new curriculum. So, we see the opportunities.

I think that, in my written evidence, there's quite a lot here about the diversity anti-racist professional learning, which has had a huge impact already, reaching out to 20,000 in delivering training to practitioners and teachers—a huge amount of impact already, and in further education as well. It's very important that one of the first things that the education Minister did was look at training for education, because if we can't train our teachers—. The fact that we now have accreditation for initial teacher education programmes in Wales for the new curriculum for student teachers—. That refreshed criteria—it's all in my written evidence to you—explicitly requires all programmes of ITE in Wales to be anti-racist. Also, giving some bursaries, as well, to ethnic minority student teachers—. We haven't got a diverse teaching force, have we? Betty Campbell was the first black headteacher, and, of course, one of her great ambitions was to have black history as a mandatory part of the curriculum. That all came through at the same time as we were delivering on our 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. I think we've got to recognise the work of Professor Charlotte Williams, who actually took us on this journey to reach the cynefin key strand of the new curriculum. So, I think the DARPL anti-racist provision is really important, but we are in the first 18 months or so of delivery of this plan.

It’s interesting; I went to a school locally in Grangetown and they’ve developed—a primary school—an anti-racist action plan, 'Anti-racism at St Paul's'. And also, in Ysgol Bro Preseli—as you’ll probably be aware, in a much less diverse area—year 7 produced this. They’ve produced these plans, because they’re committed to the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. So, I think we’ve just got to recognise that things are changing, but it is going to take time. And on the DARPL—I don’t know if you took any evidence about that—

Yes, we did.

It is pioneering and it's been recognised outside of Wales. So, yes, obviously, we're concerned to see, and Jeremy Miles was very concerned to see, that spotlight report—an important report from the children's commissioner on children's experiences of racism. We'll fully consider all the recommendations, but one of the important developments that was taking place anyway is that education officials are updating our statutory anti-bullying guidance for schools and local authorities. It's expected to be published for consultation in the new year. I think that update to the statutory anti-bullying guidance is critically important. But also, I think this links to how we collect data as well, assess if we need to make regulatory changes, just to ensure that we are addressing some of the points that are coming out of our consultation, when we do it, on the anti-bullying guidance. We've funded, as you know, Show Racism the Red Card, and over the years, we've actually used a lot of EU funding for a hate crime programme across all schools in Wales. We're also funding the Welsh Local Government Association to deliver education awareness. So, I think there are some really good examples and you'll see them in the education chapter of the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' annual report. But clearly, we've got a long way to go.

Yes. We acknowledge that there's lots of work going on, but clearly there's still some work to do. Can I now bring in Sarah Murphy?

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you all for being here this morning. I'd like to start by saying that we have had a lot of evidence that's begun with people telling us that they're so proud to be part of this, it's the first of its kind that they've ever seen, it's incredibly collaborative. So, there's a lot of positivity out there and about the potential for this action plan as well. I'm just going to come on, though, to looking at the collaboration across Government, public and private sectors. Minister, you just mentioned then the WLGA awareness. The committee has heard from several stakeholders, including representatives of local government, who've said that there is a lack of clarity around their role in delivering the actions in the plan. So, what process is in place for ensuring those who are named as lead or partners in the plan know precisely what their role is and what's expected?

This is a really important question—thank you for it—because we can't deliver the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' just as a Welsh Government. All our partners have to deliver it, and they're bound to deliver it under the well-being of future generations responsibility in terms of a more equal Wales. So, local authorities are key to delivering this, alongside other partners, the health service, higher and further education, and in the private sector.

I've been meeting with the cabinet members for equality; I've met with leaders as well. We actually launched the plan just after the local government elections, and so we had a bit of a pause in terms of engaging with them just before the election. But I've actually met cabinet equality leads four times over the past year, and the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' has been on the agenda every time. I met them last week and had a really great response from them all. There is also a responsibility on those cabinet members to share the discussions from the meetings with me. But, for example, last week, when I met two authorities—I remember one being Conwy, and I think there was a south Wales authority as well—both said that, for example, they had just signed up to the Unison anti-racist charter.

So, yes, they have got responsibility for looking at the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' and then turning that into their own goals and delivery. But I think one of the most important opportunities we have with all leaders—because this has to be leadership; the leaders of the local authorities have got to back this—was One Welsh Public Service, and you've probably heard about it, the leadership summit that we had last May, when we brought all local authorities together, all public sector leaders, and it was a really important opportunity. I think we had nearly all of the local authorities there. You were involved then, weren't you, Riaz? And we just laid it on the line that this was what was going to happen.

I think the WLGA particularly has been very engaged with this. For example, if you get an improvement grant now, through the WLGA, there are conditions to deliver to implement goals on the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. Also, for example, there's social care. Obviously, every Minister has got different ways they meet with cabinet members, so the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' doesn't just come up with me and equality members. So, social care directly engages with local authority social care teams as well. And I think you can see spots emerging of good practice, where they are taking this on board.

But we are saying that part of our partnership—because it is a very strong team Wales partnership we have with local authorities—is to work together on this. They've been incredibly engaged with our nation of sanctuary work in terms of support for all of the refugees who are now being welcomed, settled and integrated into Wales. So, there's strong work on that as well. But it's the WLGA leaders and cabinet members, and we've met four times on the agenda over the past year.

Brilliant. Thank you. To come on to the housing sector, specifically the private housing sector, your written evidence states that strengthening collaboration with the private sector is essential. Rent Smart Wales say that just under 1,000 landlords out of a total of 10,000 registered landlords have undertaken hate crime training. So, what is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that private landlords are aware of the plan? Also, the Bevan Foundation are saying that migrants often face discrimination if they want to rent a home. So, what action is being taken for migrants as well, please?

Thank you. There's quite a bit in my written evidence about the work we're doing in housing, with registered social landlords and also with Rent Smart Wales. I think you've already given some information about how they are engaging. During Black History Month, which we've just come out of, Rent Smart Wales did a focused campaign on raising awareness in terms of hate crimes and discrimination particularly. So, 400 landlords during that month undertook that training. So, we're well over 1,000, as you say. There is also going to be an anti-racism action plan for use by the private rented sector. That will really focus them on the way forward.

But I think it's also important that we look at it from a tenant point of view, and also you've mentioned migrants. Shelter Cymru have a role to play. Obviously, that's another funded body from the Minister for Climate Change. For students, we've got the 'Smart Moves' student guide for housing support. But we have got some control there, because of Rent Smart Wales, haven't we? It's a real opportunity in terms of the private rented sector. 

I've just mentioned the work we do with local authorities in terms of the rights and responsibilities around migrant and sanctuary seeker rehousing. I'm just about to start co-chairing with the lead cabinet member for housing from the WLGA a nation of sanctuary joint board, because we're now moving into how we can support the dispersal programme that we've got for refugees and sanctuary seekers in Wales. We've spent a great deal of time together working on support for those who've come through safe and legal routes like the Ukrainian scheme and the Afghan scheme, but we're working very closely on a much wider range of migrant needs in terms of access to tenancies. I think it's very important that we've got the funding that's gone into the transitional capital programme for modular housing, which is also helping all people in housing need, but it means that we've got more temporary housing available.

Thank you. And my last question, then. I think there's also a requirement for collaboration between the Welsh Government and the police and crime commissioners, so I just wanted to ask about the live facial recognition technology that is currently being deployed by South Wales and Gwent police in Wales. It did have to be paused because the Court of Appeal found in 2020 that South Wales Police had breached privacy rights, data protection laws and equality legislation through its use of facial recognition technology. At the beginning of the year, a report found minimal discrepancies for race and sex where the technology is used in certain settings, and South Wales Police did have to pause it, but they have now started administering it again. It's just come to my attention that last week it was deployed in Bridgend town centre, Merthyr Tydfil town centre and Pontypridd town centre for the first time with no prior warning given to anybody. There's no mention in the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' of anything to do with live facial recognition technology being deployed, even though we know that there can be discrimination embedded in it. So, my question is what work is being done on this. What discussions does the Welsh Government have with the police and crime commissioners about this? What are your thoughts on the new code of practice for South Wales Police, and what are your thoughts, as well, on the key settings that can be used to mitigate this race discrimination?

There were about four questions there, but I'd like brevity.

I think it's a really important point you've raised. It's something that we're looking at anyway, quite apart from the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', with South Wales Police, so I think I'll need to come back to you in terms of any follow-up on this. Obviously, we're working very closely with our police and crime commissioners across Wales on the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', and they've developed their own criminal justice anti-racist Wales action plan. But on that particular point in terms of live facial recognition equipment, I'll need to come back to you.

Thank you, Minister. We'll look forward to that answer. Ken Skates.

Thanks, Chair. Good afternoon, Minister. I'm going to ask some questions about implementing the plan itself. I'll start with the question of has the Welsh Government got the right structures in place to deliver the plan and are you confident that the implementation team is sufficiently resourced. 

Diolch yn fawr. Thank you very much, Ken. I've already given quite a bit of information about the external accountability group, and then, alongside that, the internal support group as well. I don't think I've got much more to say about the external accountability group. But, for example, we just talked about collaboration with the external bodies as well, so the fact that I meet with the cabinet members—particularly equality cabinet members—on the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' is one aspect of how we then, working together, are team Wales in terms of accountability. But also, just in terms of preparing for the annual report, I met with all Ministers, I had bilaterals with all Ministers over the spring and summer just to identify how they were progressing. And also in terms of accountability, I'm very pleased you're actually undertaking this inquiry; that's really helpful at this early stage of delivering on the plan. But I think there is strong accountability. I also chair the Wales race forum, which is a much wider group, which has been meeting for many years. In fact, the Wales race forum were really instrumental in us moving to this 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', and that's people with lived experience.

So, I think the accountability is pretty clear and strong. It's also—. Can I just say in terms of the Welsh Government—and, obviously, we've got a senior official here, Amelia—we've given—? The Welsh Government senior civil service have now all got to have a performance objective on delivering the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. You've got to actually change the culture of leadership and delivery in the civil service to make this happen. I don't know obviously, whether, Amelia, you'd just want to say something about the impact of that, because every senior civil servant has to have a performance objective. But also—. This obviously is also having an impact on our recruitment and retention as well, but if we've got time—. And obviously our implementation team here—we could spend some time on that—who are absolutely having an influence across the whole of the Welsh Government. Actually, perhaps I'll turn to Rajvi, to say something about that.

I think the very fact that our team in itself is representative in its make-up—you know, we're leading by example. But the main idea is we've got to be the change we wish to see, so we're very much focused, from leadership, from floor to board across the Welsh Government, on being representative, and targets for senior leadership are part of that, as well as changing practices around interviews, around conversations that are happening. So, there's a deep cultural change afoot.

Thank you.

Amelia, a quick word—?

Only just to say that I think the SCS objectives are absolutely key, because every senior civil servant will have to have those, and they are measurable objectives. We're held to account on them in our mid-year review and end-of-year review. Just to mention also, there has been procured a complete end-to-end review of HR policies and procedures from an external organisation with expertise around anti-racism, so it will be specifically through the anti-racist lens.

That's excellent. Back to you, Ken Skates.

Thanks, Chair. Minister, you'll probably be aware of Swansea Council's comments. They relate to complexities in delivering the plan. I think they said this begs the question as to how much thought went into the plan in the first place to set realistic time frames. How do you respond to those concerns?

[Inaudible.]—one comment that you're sharing with me, which is absolutely important, that we hear all of that feedback, and it's come to your committee. But, as I've said, I've worked so closely with the Welsh Local Government Association. I've met with all the leaders. I've met four times with the cabinet members for equality. So, I hope that local authorities are disseminating and sharing that learning and that responsibility from those meetings. I feel that there is this cultural change coming through local government as well, and other organisations, and there's a real—. But if you look, again, at the annual report on local government, you will see that there is also progress being made, and in fact I've commented on it, on local government, in the annex of my written evidence that I've given you as well. But obviously it is going to take time for everyone to embrace this, and I do hope that we can demonstrate—. And the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' is going to be shared widely. I have to say, and it's very much up to the implementation team, it is extraordinary the work that's gone on over the last year in terms of this plan. And what's interesting is that when I met with Ministers they came up with a whole lot of new things they were doing that weren't in the original plan. So, for example, we didn't have anything on early years and childcare, and now we've got 11 community mentors working on childcare. We've got a midwifery lead midwife now, delivering on the anti-racist Wales objectives in the NHS. Obviously, we haven't delivered everything yet, but I do hope, particularly in terms of local government, that they will feel that we're working on this together as a team. 

Okay. We've noted everything that you've written to us about; we just need to focus on queries, because we're going to run out of time otherwise. Ken.

Yes. Thanks, Chair. Just one more question from myself: we've heard concerns about the lack of progress to implement the actions specific to the Gypsy, Roma and Traveller community—are you able to give us assurance that this is a top priority?

Yes, and, of course, what's really important is that there's a whole chapter in the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' in terms of Gypsy, Roma, Traveller people, and we have an expert on our team as well. I think what's really important about the Gypsy, Roma, Traveller people work is that this is something anyway that we're responsible for in terms of Travelling Ahead. I've just, in the last few months, started working with all local authorities across Wales, because we haven't seen enough progress in terms of the provision of sites, both transit and permanent. But if you look at the ArWAP commitments, it's worth just looking at the goal:

'To recognise that safe, culturally appropriate accommodation is necessary in order for individuals to flourish in other parts of their lives and to address the lack of site provision and poor quality of Gypsy and Traveller accommodation in Wales.'

That goal came from Gypsy and Traveller people who influenced and helped us develop that commitment. So, all of the objectives under that goal we're working on. I've met with four authorities in the last few months, north to south. In fact last week, I was meeting with Cardiff; two weeks ago I met with Torfaen County Borough Council, who've got the first elected Gypsy, Roma, Traveller councillor, who wanted to come and see me to tell me how important it was that we funded transit sites. Now, the interesting thing that's come out of meetings with Newport, Torfaen—and we're meeting with Monmouthshire shortly—is that they now want their Gwent public services board to look at ways in which they could develop transit sites. Because, as the councillor was telling me—she's the champion for Gypsies, Roma and Travellers in Torfaen—people travel through Wales on a regular basis, and we've been very concerned about the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022, which was going to criminalise Gypsies in unauthorised sites. So, there's real progress, I think, being made, just in the last few weeks and months.

When I was in Denbighshire—I'll just mention north Wales, Ken—I met with the cabinet member there, and she has organised training for all her councillors on Gypsy, Roma, Traveller culture, needs and strengths, and that was one of the key aims of the ArWAP commitments. And we're also being held to account—there's been a good inquiry by the Local Government and Housing Committee Committee on this—so I feel we are making progress now, at long last, on the Gypsy, Roma, Traveller 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' commitments.

Okay, thank you. Well, it's been a long time coming on that specific issue. Jane, very briefly, and then I'm going to bring in Altaf.

Diolch yn fawr. Well, I think you're referring to the whole plan, or just in terms of Gypsy, Roma, Traveller—

Good practice, really.

Yes, good practice. That's really important through the Hwb platform of providing educational materials, which all schools can access to share that good practice. But I think, also, in terms of just sharing the good practice, I've mentioned two schools doing their anti-racist Wales action plans. This is also at a regional and sub-regional level as well in terms of sharing education good practice. I think that's where the DARPL, the diversity and anti-racism professional learning—. They're doing whole-county events. I went to one where they had all the school's teachers and headteachers—and actually teachers as well—from Cardiff came together for an event. So, there's a lot of sharing in terms of communications. They're all certainly going to get my 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' as well, because I think that's about communications and making sure that we do get that information together and share it much more widely. But I think schools themselves, the professional learning, is very important; cynefin is part of the curriculum, and there's a lot of sharing, particularly in cynefin, with the ethical and informed learners. 

Okay. Thank you. Minister, is there any chance we could have an extra 10 minutes of your time, because we've got three areas that we still want to discuss with you? 

Yes, of course, and I was a few minutes late. 

Thank you very much. Can I call in Altaf Hussain? We've just heard, Altaf, that the Minister is going to disseminate the report she's published today to all schools. That's excellent. So, over to you. 

Thank you very much, Chair. Minister, good afternoon. Now, the first annual report will be published in December. How will the Welsh Government publicise and communicate the findings to ensure that the public and grass-roots community groups are engaged with the plan?

Thank you very much. I sort of started to mention that, Altaf, just now in terms of the plan and how it's going to be a really useful document. We already do have an anti-racist Wales stakeholder bulletin, and I'm just thinking back to Jane Dodds's question; that's something—. It's got over 1,000 subscribers. I'm not sure if schools subscribe to it. [Interruption.] They do. So, we need to—. The anti-racist Wales stakeholder bulletin is—. How often does it get published? 

It's at least every two months, and then it's distributed by the people it goes on to as well. So, there's a very—. BAMed, I know, who have given evidence to this, they distribute further to 500 people on their list, so it's—

Cascading. 

It cascades down a lot further than the 1,000 we access. 

So, we will be very widely sharing the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' annual report, but also there's quite a lot of webinars going on at the moment as well. I've mentioned the public sector leadership summit. We also have, of course, links to the wider campaigns, such as the Hate Hurts Wales campaign, which is tackling hate crime and encouraging people to report hate crime. So, I think communications are very focused, aren't they? Did you want to say something, Riaz?

Yes, I think with regards to further promotion of the plan, we are in the process of establishing four regional forums—the Minister has just given that resources—and that will be the key for us to reach out to the people in their local communities. And once we have those regional forums, that will be the forum for us to disseminate that information from us to the community and then back, to receive the intelligence to us as well. And that will be happening on a more regular basis. 

Thank you. Altaf. 

Thank you, Riaz. That's very helpful. Ceri Harris from the NHS Confederation told the committee that it is important that we get monitoring and measurement right going forwards, otherwise, in 2030, we'll be having the same conversations. So, what process is in place to monitor and measure the progress of the plan, and what is the role of the race disparity evidence in this process?

It is crucial, isn't it, that we make sure that—. The implementation and measuring the progress and impact of the plan is key. Many of the questions that have come out of your inquiry quite rightly have been about how do we measure, what are the outcomes, and it's very early days. I think you'll see in the opening comments, both the foreword from myself and the First Minister, and the executive summary, that we are recognising that still this is not—people may not feel this change yet in their lived experience in the outcomes of this plan. So, it is a long haul to make this change to an anti-racist Wales, but what we’re very clear about are the goals and actions. You know we’ve got the six overarching goals, and we actually made them all cross-Government, that they’re all the responsibility of each portfolio Minister, and that we also have, as we’ve said, the accountability objectives, performance objectives, for every leader, for every senior civil servant. We’re also going to have our regional co-ordinators, as you said, Riaz, having an impact. So, this is not just about Cardiff Bay or South Wales Central—this is the whole of Wales.

But the most important thing is the race disparity unit, and I know you’ve received evidence from them. It’s early days for them, they’re still developing. They’re leading on developing the framework to monitor and measure the progress in relation to the plan, and it’s not just across Welsh Government, but it’s across the wider public sector. It’s very important in terms of the external accountability group and the race disparity unit is actually working with them. They’ve got an evidence sub-group. Also, there are members of grass-roots communities who are involved in measuring the plan. And I think it’s interesting that Ken Skates asked me that question, 'Is this complex? Is this becoming—?' We need to get this right, so actually in terms of implementing it and getting the measurement and the framework and the monitoring, we need to ensure that we have granular detail about data, outcomes. But we need to also be very clear about the straightforward messages, about, 'Is this making an impact, is it changing people’s lives?'

Thank you, Minister. There's a concern about black or mixed ethnic people being more likely to have experienced sexual assault than other ethnic groups. How is this disparity going to be addressed? And the structural racism that you mentioned earlier played a great part in the higher death toll amongst the BAME community, as transpired in the COVID-19 inquiry. 

Thank you, Altaf. Of course, I mentioned the learning we had, the tragic, in a way, learning we had from the pandemic from the disproportionate experience of the impact of coronavirus on black, Asian and minority ethnic people. That has very much driven the way forward in terms of the socioeconomic impacts that came out of the evidence that was developed from people with lived experience. I think this takes us to this point about intersectionality, that we recognise—and I've also given evidence in my written statement for this committee report about this—that this is an opportunity. We were learning about the intersectional aspects of this, during the pandemic, the impact on women and young people, and the intersectional aspects in terms of the NHS, I think, are particularly interesting. Maternity services—that's why we've now got a lead midwife looking at these issues, and also looking at it from a social care perspective.

But this is very important to our tackling violence against women, domestic abuse and sexual violence strategy, which is now acknowledging a much more intersectional basis of work. Again, it goes back to evidence, and the data, and the race disparity unit has its role to play in that. But also it's criminal justice as well, because this is moving into the criminal justice domain, and that's where there is very clearly cross-Government working. I'm responsible for VAWDASV and the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', so bringing this together in our blueprint is very important. But I can probably give you some more evidence in writing about the way in which we're pulling that into the VAWDASV strategy.

Thank you very much, Minister. Chair, if there's time, I may ask about the criminal justice system, which the Minister addressed. Dr Rob Jones highlighted issues around Welsh criminal justice data, and said that even if data on ethnicity is more accessible, there's a lack of capacity in Wales to analyse and interpret it. He called for more collaboration with academic institutions, including the development of an observatory on criminal justice in Wales. What are the views of the Minister and has this approach been considered by the Welsh Government? 

This is on the observatory.

Well, I've touched on this really. Just picking up on the last point about the links to disproportionate violence against women and sexual abuse, this is another aspect of my work, which is about devolving justice to Wales, working very closely with the Counsel General. And we have a Cabinet sub-committee on justice, working very closely with Richard Wyn Jones and Rob Jones on the jagged edge. And you've done work on that as well in terms of women in the criminal justice system. So, we're working on all fronts, as far as this is concerned, to get better data, justice data, and, in fact, just in terms of disaggregating data, which for non-devolved is really important for the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', and seeing what the gaps are. But we are making progress in terms of data linkage and working closely with Administrative Data Research Wales, so we can use criminal justice data for this purpose.

Now, we're working on youth justice and probation, as you know, in terms of devolving functions to Wales. But also the criminal justice board has a Wales race taskforce data sub-group. So, it is important, though it's not devolved, that criminal justice partners have come alongside us with their criminal justice 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. I'm not sure if you took any evidence from them or from the lead police and crime commissioners who are involved in that.   

Yes. We've taken all that. I think, could we just—

But I'm going to answer the question about—

Can I just add in something specific? So, we know from the latest Equality and Human Rights Commission report that sexual assault is more likely in black or mixed ethnic groups, and that's highlighted. Is that because people feel more comfortable about reporting it, as a result of initiatives within the secondary care sector? Or is it—? How do you approach the analysis of data to know whether it is a worrying rise in the number of sexual assaults or is it that people are more trusting of authority and, therefore, likely to disclose it? This is a complex—

It is. 

—area, and so I wonder if you can just specifically say something about how you analyse data to work out what's the cause and what's the effect. 

Well, that's where we have to improve on the access to the data, and also when it's not devolved—. But in terms of sexual assault, that's a sort of crossing over the jagged edge, particularly. And I'm aware of that EHRC report on the latest 'Is Wales Fairer?' I think we'd have to do more work on this. It's not something that we've addressed.  

Okay. 

It's not certainly addressed particularly. But, as it's come out, I think this is something that we'd want to talk to our health colleagues about particularly, because, as far as sexual assault services are concerned—. Obviously we're talking about sexual violence, which I've just been mentioning in terms of Altaf's question, but in terms of sexual assault services with the responsibility of the health Minister—. But I know that this is something where New Pathways would probably have some interesting feedback as the main organisation providing sexual assault services. So, if we can get anything from our colleague, we'll share it with you.    

Fine. Written evidence will be fine. Okay. You wanted to add something very—. 

Yes, Chair. Only to say that this has been an ongoing problem. For example, with hate crime statistics, it's the same thing, 'Do people feel more confident?' And just to say that the role of involving people with lived experience, that's what's really key, because we can start to really understand whether people are feeling more confident or whether, actually, incidents are going up. And, I think, the survivors panel on the blueprint—the VAWDASV—have some really excellent experiences and expertise to share as well on this.

Okay.

We'll follow that up.

We'll stick with race equality for today. Sioned Williams, you wanted to come in.

Obviously, we haven't excluded anyone from the plan, and people with lived experience have been involved in co-producing the plan. The grass-roots funding that we gave out to many organisations included elders, all generations. Obviously, the plan is open for all to engage with and we very much hope that the older people's commissioner will take an interest in this. But I think, probably, in terms of some of the policy areas, social care, perhaps, particularly, and obviously, there's a very strong strand of work that's been undertaken in terms of social care. So, as I said, older people have been involved in the plan, and we just hope that there'll be more engagement. Did you want to say something, Rajvi?

No, just that we've engaged with the Windrush Cymru Elders, for example, who've had a huge influence on the plan, and, again, intersectionality runs through all of this. We understand that race doesn't exist in a vacuum. And the people with lived experience on our external advisory group are of all age ranges and bring that experience along to the EAG and the sub-groups too.

Diolch yn fawr. This is an area, again, that we need to constantly monitor, evaluate and review. You'll be aware of the Wales Interpretation and Translation Service. That was established in 2009 to meet the interpretation and translation needs of the whole public sector and it's hosted by Cardiff Council, since 2017, and actually has a wide range of interpreters covering approximately 120 languages, including British Sign Language. So, I think there have been some useful reports on this. In fact, the Equality and Social Justice Committee's report on gender-based violence and the needs of migrant women raised this, as did the Health and Social Care Committee's 'Connecting the dots' report on mental health and inequalities. Public Health Wales have got a key role to play in this as well, so we're looking at a number of committees' reports in terms of adequacy of the services. It's important to migrants as well; there's a migrant integration Wales project and they've also raised questions about this. So, it is important that we do monitor and follow up the recommendations that have come on looking at the way that WITS is actually being implemented. 

Diolch yn fawr. A really important question in terms of all intersectionality and all the ways that we're bringing our action plans together at the moment. The root to this is the strategic equality plan. Obviously, the strategic equality plans are four-year plans and the fact is that we've just gone out to consultation, which you'll be aware of, for the next phase of the strategic equality plan. This is a real opportunity, in fact, to bring all our equality plans together. So, we've got the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' and we've got the LGBTQ+ action plan. We're developing an updated disability action framework as a result of the disability rights taskforce. If you look at the strategic equality plan consultation, it's very much about how we can link them all up.

We've got three principles of approach in this latest strategic equality plan: mainstreaming equality in the design and delivery of Welsh Government interventions and policy development; delivering an intersectional approach to policy development and delivery; and addressing the gap between intention and delivery. So, I think there's a real opportunity with this next phase of consultation on the strategic equality plan.

I also have to say that this inquiry is helpful, because it keeps raising these issues about intersectionality. I think everyone's learning about this, actually. In our VAWDASV strategy board, they're just now developing a whole strand of work on intersectionality. They're looking more now at disabled women and their experience of domestic violence. Obviously, the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan' is having an influence on the whole of the VAWDASV plan. There's the LGBTQ+ action plan.

The disability rights taskforce, if I could just say, Chair, decided only a few months ago that they felt they needed a justice work stream. They didn't feel that when they started off. They had social care, independent living and transport, and then they said, 'No, justice is important', as it is to the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan'. So, I think the intersectional work is ongoing.

All the officials are working together on this, as well. I think you're the implementation planner for the 'Anti-racist Wales Action Plan', Riaz, but you obviously link up with your colleagues in the other equality units, don't you? Perhaps you could give Riaz a chance to comment on that, having come in from outside to work here.

I think you are very right, Minister. As part of the equality and human rights division, all the heads of the different action plans sit together, and the example we give in the next strategic equality plan will be something that will co-ordinate all the action plans in one place. So, for us, rather than to be looking at things in isolation, that will tackle the work that has been happening, but in a more joined-up and co-ordinated way. Hopefully, that will shape the next plan. Thank you.

If I could also just say that this is all relevant to not only devolving justice, but our equality and human rights objectives, as well. So, this week, we'll be chairing a human rights advisory group. It's about how do we incorporate the UN convention on the rights of people with disabilities and the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. It's all about strengthening equality and advancing human rights.

Diolch, Gadeirydd.

Jane Dodds.

Diolch yn fawr. That's a really important question for us. I've mentioned our communications campaign, Hate Hurts Wales, which is an anti-hate crime campaign, and we fund the Wales hate support centre. It's run by Victim Support Cymru, with free and confidential advice. It goes back to that really interesting question about reported sexual assault crimes identified by the EHRC. So, we encourage people to report hate crimes.

But in terms of long-standing issues, and then current issues, I also co-chair the faith communities forum, which actually was set up after 9/11, bringing together faith communities. In recent times, in terms of the middle east conflict, as a Minister I met with all the groups who sit on that faith communities forum. I've met with the Muslim Council of Wales, who are very active in the faith communities forum, and Jewish representatives, attending Friday prayers in the mosque and going to Shabbat in the synagogue in Cardiff, and an interfaith event—constant dialogue, constant engagement.

But also we have community cohesion co-ordinators. When it comes back to priorities, when we’re really under pressure in terms of public finances, with the UK Government's appalling settlements, these are the things we need to keep, as far as I’m concerned. There are community cohesion co-ordinators—and you were once one, Riaz—in every part of Wales. When I went to visit my local mosque, one of the members there said he was so pleased that the community cohesion co-ordinator had come to speak to them. Exactly the same would be true, I’m sure, in Cardiff for the Jewish and Muslim communities as well.

So, we can only do what we can, but I do think this goes back to the fact that where we have powers—and we have responsibilities more than powers—it's about community cohesion, it’s about Hate Hurts Wales, it’s about an anti-racist Wales, it’s about tackling violence against women, it’s about supporting people who are treated appallingly, experience prejudice every day, Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people. We have got to stand up, speak up, and we have got to be in continual dialogue. It’s no good being a one-off; it has to be continual dialogue, and that’s the way I approach it.

Minister, I just wanted to ask about one final thing that came up very powerfully in a previous evidence session, which is around the use of children as translators when people are accessing health services. You may or may not be able to give us a response now, but we had a doctor in our previous evidence session, which you may have heard, talking about how, had she not decided to take direct action and examine this person, she simply wouldn’t have found out from the way in which relatives were translating—or not—her symptoms. This woman would not have been properly diagnosed, and that’s happening—it’s still happening—that children are being used to translate, when it’s entirely inappropriate if we’re talking about intimate health issues. So, I just wondered if, in writing subsequently, you could tell us how the Government is ensuring that, whether it’s in primary or secondary care, we are not using other family members, unless, of course there’s an emergency in the emergency department, or something like that.

We’ll certainly follow this up from what we were saying about the Wales Interpretation and Translation Service. I am aware of the fact that there’s been some research done into the health experiences of asylum seekers and refugees—the HEAR 2 study in Wales. I think this has come back as evidence to some of these reports I mentioned, so we’ll take this back and write to you about it. It’s entirely unacceptable, and that’s why we’ve got to get the interpretation and translation services up to speed.

Thank you very much indeed for your attendance today. We’ll obviously send you a transcript of your evidence, and you will obviously have the opportunity to correct it if we’ve got that wrong. Thank you very much.

The committee will continue. Can I ask Members to note three items of correspondence relating to our current inquiries? Are Members content to note these three items?

Therefore, under Standing Order 17.42, can I ask Members to agree to exclude the public for the remainder of today’s meeting?