National Assembly for Wales

Diolch, Delyth. Bore da. Maggie Russell, chair of the arts council.

Morning, everyone. I'm Rebecca Nelson. I'm the director of finance at the arts council. 

Shall I carry on on that one?

Thank you. Why did you cut funding to the national theatre before a planned review into English-language theatre?

Tom, if I can just come in here, wearing my chair's hat, I just want to alert the committee, or share with the committee, that we have a council meeting next week, on the thirteenth, where myself and the council will be considering the recommendations from the appeals panel. So, in this meeting, it would be inappropriate for us to talk about anything specifically relating to any specific companies in the investment review, so that we don't prejudice the council's decision making next Wednesday. I'm not trying to be opaque in any way, and I'm really happy to come back and talk to the committee or to you as individuals after the thirteenth, but I don't want to set up anything in this meeting that would prejudice the integrity of the process of our investment review. We can talk more generally, I think, about English language theatre, but I can't answer that. 

Can I just follow up on that, sorry? The reviews are a package of reviews that have come out from the investment review deliberations. Within that package, yes, there's English language theatre, there's also, as I mentioned earlier, traditional music, there's also dance, community dance in Wales. It was quite relevant, last week, in my discussion in Powys. We're also looking at outdoor arts as well. So, it's as a result of, rather than pre, if that helps explains the logic then. 

Thank you. I understand the position you're in, in terms of the further work that you will need to do on this topic, and obviously I wouldn't want to prejudice that. But trying to get an understanding of why the decision was taken for the review—and your explanation there was very helpful—is it typical that, going through this process, you would uncover other issues that would lead to wider reviews? And does that then not halt the decision-making process, as opposed to carrying on with the agreed timeline?

I think that's a really valuable point, Tom. I think, one of the things, as a new chair coming in nine months ago—. And I arrived, I think, the day after the application process for investment review closed, so my entire time as chair has been under the timeline of the investment review. And also, I'm really aware that an investment review hadn't been completed for seven years. So, when we also balance that seven-year factor into how quickly organisations change, how creativity is responsive to the environment it's in, how the effect of the pandemic is factored into that—. So, in a sense, I would have been really surprised if we'd begun the investment review process, which has been such an in-depth process, monitoring so many applications across Wales and across art forms—if that hadn't thrown up quite a lot of areas and questions, because we hadn't looked at that as a council for seven years. Almost 50 per cent of our spend hadn't really been interrogated in a detailed, strategic way for a long time. So, I think it would be unusual if these things hadn't come up, really. I don't know if that answers your question. 

That's helpful. Can you let us know when you think that review into English-language theatre will be complete? 

Yes. Dafydd. 

We have to allow for the appeals process to come to an end, and that should conclude next week, when council meet on the thirteenth. And, following on from that, depending on what the result of that is, that will drive the review, but certainly early in the new year we will announce our intention on that. 

Tom, just before you carry on, Llyr wants to come in on this point, if that's all right.

Collateral damage.

Yes. I'd just like some clarity, really, and I understand if you can't answer, but I can't be the only member of the committee who has been approached by the national theatre with their concerns about the process by which decisions about them have been made. So, we've got those questions, and what you're saying to us is that you can't answer those questions—the question Tom Giffard put to you. So, there's clearly a gap here, isn't there, in what we need to know and what you're able to tell us. So, can you give us clarity on how and when those decisions will be made and when you'll be able to come back to us with that clarity so that we can ask the questions that we're being lobbied about?

Yes, certainly, Hefin. So, today, as chair of council, I'm expecting a communication from the panel that considered the representation six days ago now, I think, that the national theatre made in response to the appeals process. So, I haven't had that yet; I expect to have that today. That will then be shared with council and council will then be asked to respond to what the panel has sent to us and we will do that in our meeting on the thirteenth and then, within seven days of that, we will communicate our decision to the national theatre and we can share our decision with the committee then. So, that will be the process. I don't know if that helps clarify for you.

Okay. Well, just to say to the Chair, really, I mean, what we're interested in scrutinising would be that process, and therefore we'd like the opportunity, then, to do that.

Of course. Yes, sure. What I can do when I get back to the office today is send you a copy of what our published process has been, so you can see all the landmarks in our published process, which is out there in our guidance. If that would be of help, I can send that to the committee today.

Thank you. It looks like we'll want to return to this when there's more information.

Thank you. In answer to the question Llyr posed there, you mentioned that the review into English language theatre was triggered and prompted, if you like by—I'm trying to paraphrase here—the wider health of the sector as it came through the investment review process. Were you surprised by that? Is that what led to it? Were you surprised by the wider health, if you like, of English language theatre in Wales?

No, we'd decided to do go for a review of English language theatre during the process. It wasn't as a response to anything in particular; it was as a response to the process of the investment review.

It's interesting, as one of the things I've been aware of is that, post COVID, and I'm sure the committee's well aware of this, following the work you did on the report that you published in October, there's been a very mixed returning picture of audiences to the sector. In some sectors, that return has been much, much stronger. Theatre has been one of the slower sectors to return, and so it's difficult to disaggregate some of the COVID response from some of the offer. So, I think, in a way, it feels like it's a combination of a moment of us doing the review, the applications we got in and the condition in which the creative and cultural sector is post COVID. It's almost like several of those things coming together means we need to look at this live arts sector, if we call it that, because the returns of the audience are very differing. In film, they're down, in music, they're beginning to pick up. In fact, interestingly, in the last three months, I think there has been a pick-up in the theatre audiences, and there have been some very notable exceptions of shows selling out. A year ago, we wouldn't have imagined that happening post COVID. So, I think it's a combination of the wider sector and our process of investment review, Tom.

Can I just add a point here as well?

Yes.

The investment reviews are obviously a multi-year funding arrangement now, so there'll plenty of opportunity in the future for other organisations or new organisations to come into the arts council funding, and also we've got our lottery funding, as well. So, it's not a hard stop; the investment review is going to be a continual investment, observing the sector and making the choices we need to once we have the information.

Thanks. I think there's loads more to go into here, but, in the interests of time, I'll just ask this: what happens if this review recommends establishing a national theatre in the English language?

Well, we'll have to look at it and consider it.

After cutting funding to Mid Wales Opera and reducing funding for the Welsh National Opera, what is your vision for opera in Wales?

That's a very good question, really, and it's not only what our vision for opera is, it's where opera actually takes place, as well. I think we have a responsibility to consider how we get as varied art forms as possible to go into places like mid Wales. It was a difficult decision we had to take. The application did not convince. I think that the national opera, the WNO, have been going through a difficult period with their cut from ACE, Arts Council England, and we are in discussion with the WNO. There are changes, no doubt, but we have to make sure that we have a national opera company that has quality at its core, and I think that's true in the case of WNO, but they currently, of course, are now looking for a new artistic director, so there's lots of change happening there. As part of that, we are certainly going to be in the room working with that organisation to make sure that we have a national opera company that we can be proud of. But it is difficult, and let's not pretend otherwise. But it is a period of change. We have got to protect the quality of opera provision, and we’ve got to protect the fact that it can tour and tour further afield than just, say, to places in Wales. It also gets funding, and what’s interesting now is the funding mix will be a parity. They used to get more funding from England than they did for Wales. That won’t be the case, moving forward. And we have to use that positively in discussion with them to make sure the Welsh National Opera reaches as many parts of Wales as possible.

And in fact, I know, in discussions with WNO, they are now looking at different scales of touring model. So, things that are on the main stage at the millennium centre wouldn’t be feasible to tour at that scale, but they’re looking at a whole range of different scales of opportunities that they can tour throughout Wales.

Thank you. You mentioned that it was important to have a national opera company with quality at its core. I think that was what you said, Dafydd. To what extent do you think the decisions you’ve made as an arts council make that more difficult to achieve?

In the context of opera, or generally?

Yes, in the context of opera.

I think they have been difficult decisions. I think the Welsh National Opera is unique, in a sense. There are only two organisations in Wales that get funding from both ACE and us. They have an international remit to their work as well. They work in England, they work here. I would hope that—. There will be changes—there will be changes to the way they work, there will be changes possibly to some of their staffing levels. But that’s been happening anyway, to be honest. It’s been happening over the last two years. But I would hope that the level of investment means that we can keep an eye on that and make sure that we have a Welsh National Opera that we’re proud of in terms of quality.

And finally for me, would there be merit in national companies being directly funded by the Welsh Government, like, for example, the national museum and the library, rather than through the arts council?

I think that is a question that may be above the pay grade even of the chair of the council. There may be, there may not be; there are different models. One of the things we’ve been looking at—. We meet with our colleagues and counterparts across the arts councils in England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Ireland, and we all have different models and different ways of funding. So, there are always different models to look at. I am very envious when I look across to some of our European counterparts who have funding levels for the arts that none of us in the UK have, and in that, in some of those companies, those large organisations are directly funded, but we’re talking at a different level of magnitude of available budget. So, I don’t know—it’s a really interesting question and debate.

Thank you.

Yes, thank you, Dafydd. So, in addition to our grant in aid this year, the Welsh Government also gave us an allocation of £500,000, which we then re-allocated to the sector directly to cover additional cost-of-living costs. The Welsh Government also gave us £500,000 at the end of the last financial year, which we immediately distributed to the sector, so there's roughly about £1 million over those two financial years. 

And then, strategically, in terms of the arts council, we created a fund, using our lottery fund, which is called our business continuity fund, which saw £752,000, as of today, going out to the sector to support those inflationary costs. Interestingly, the demand on that has come down a little, so we feel that, actually, this shows signs that the sector has been able to absorb these costs or work differently. But I think it's something we're going to keep a close eye on, going forward, and that we make sure that we've got budgetary cover to make those adaptations.

So, those are the global figures for the sector; I was just asking about venues specifically. Is that reflected, not necessarily proportionately, but clearly there's an uplift in the practical costs of running a building et cetera?

Yes, gas, utilities and capital costs as well. So, with big, large capital projects, we've seen a call on additional funding too because the cost of building materials and labour have gone up significantly. So, we actually had £2.5 million from the Welsh Government over three years to actually get these projects over the line. So, you've seen some of the projects—Nyth in Bangor is an example that's been finished, and the Borough Theatre in Abergavenny—where that extra little bit of money has really helped to finish those projects.

Thank you. I'm interested in the conversation that we began to have in terms of where the arts council is now and where it's going forward. You're coming to the end of your strategic period at the moment, your planning period, and you've been through the investment review and the rest of it, and we've spoken about the funds that you still have available, the rest of it. What I'd like to think about is how you draw some of those threads together, if you like, because when you come to the end of a strategic planning period, the assumption is that there's going to be another one, but you've done the investment review, so you're already, in many ways, locked into decisions that you have already taken, subject to council next week and the rest of it. So, those decisions have already locked you into a particular approach. So, I'm interested in terms of managing the organisation forward where your priorities are and what your next planning period is actually going to be. Is it going to be a longer term strategic view or is it going to be a shorter term, 'This is how we're going to manage the next period'?

Do you want to come in on that?

I think one of the things that we've begun talking about—we've touched on it already this morning—is how we relate our lottery spend to our investment review spend, and how those things support our strategic priorities but also how we can really build on two areas that have been so important and groundbreaking for Wales, which is the work on arts and health and the work on creative learning. So, for the first time in the investment review we've got multi-year-funded companies that have grown through that arts and health portfolio, for example. So, I think part of the way, going forward, that we've discussed is how we start to knit together that work, because we already have the evidence base from seven years of arts and health work. That work in other public policy areas, if you like, is so valuable to our communities and audiences.

So, I think looking at how we look strategically across our lottery spend and what that has enabled to grow, and also a lot of that lottery spend has enabled the widening engagement work to now be embedded into our work as a council, going forward. So, I think, Alun, it's part of a unification of the vision and also really drilling down into those areas that Dafydd has mentioned that have come out of the investment review, which are these strategic priorities. Because we know that's long-term work; that isn't just one round of funding next July.

Yes, I get that. 

And also the other big area I think we've been looking at is we're very aware of the financial environment we're in, and we're also aware that, in Wales, we want to be part of more partnership working. So, you'll be aware of the memorandum of understanding we've got with Creative Wales, and we've got them with a number of other bodies. We're about to sign our MOU with health next week. So, I think it's really building on the investment review but also looking at how different pots of funding take us forward strategically.

Okay. It feels that we're in something of an inflection point from the way that you're speaking and some of the decisions that you've taken quite recently, and I'm wondering where you think you've reached as you reach a point of change, as it feels to be. Because usually—. I'm constantly asking Ministers to set targets, and they're constantly telling me that they'll set targets when they've decided if they can achieve them or not. And we've had this debate now for 16 years; I'm never going to win it. But I'm interested as to whether you feel you achieve the objectives that were set by your predecessors, in some ways, at the beginning of the last strategic planning period, and if you feel that you are managing a period of tumultuous change. There's going to be a level of chaos after COVID, we accept that, and I don't think that we should seek to pretend that that isn't the case. But do you feel that, notwithstanding that, the arts councils achieved the objectives that were set for it in the last period, or do you feel that you didn't, or do you feel that COVID prevented you from doing so, or do you feel that you need to go in a different direction and not simply reach a plateau and then move in a similar direction, if that question makes sense?

I've got a view, if that's okay. So, obviously, the old corporate plan was benefit for all, and I think our new strategic plan is very much still of that ethos. It's about widening engagement. It's about the arts for everyone—

But are you—? Sorry, Rebecca, but are you working on the basis of objectives you've achieved or objectives you haven't achieved?

I think we've got to do more.

So, is that 'yes' or 'no'?

Well, that's a politician's answer and I'm not a politician, am I? I think we can do more. I think we've achieved a lot, but I think going forward now with future generations, with the six investment principles that you saw through the investment review and bringing those together, actually—like you said, Alun, it's a different world—but our gut feeling is still that art should be for everyone. So, no, we probably haven't achieved that, and that's why we're doing all this extra work, but I think that's a continual journey for everyone to engage in that way.

I think we've done some really good work in certain areas, and I think in the investment we have moved in the right direction. But we're quite honest, and we said this on the—. When did we announce it? The twenty-seventh or the twenty-eighth. We need to do more in certain areas, definitely. We've gone in the right direction in certain areas, and in other areas we need to do more, and that's part of the strategic interventions, really, that we've listed, and we'll have to judge ourselves in 12 months' time or 18 months' time on those strategic interventions as well, to see how we—

That's a very narrow or short period of time.

Well, some of them I think we can look at and get some results quicker than others, and others are really long term. I personally think we can benefit quicker on some of them. I'd like to set myself that target, anyway.

I like targets. [Laughter.]

Hefin would like to come in here, and then I'll come back to Alun. Hefin.

Just to take this to the next stage, looking past the 2023 vision, where can we find your vision for the next five years written down? Where can we find a passionate and detailed exposition of your views for the future of the arts in a document?

As part of the investment review, we did a lot of consultation and the principles in the investment review will be reflected in our new strategic plan, which is scheduled to be published I think at the end of March or the beginning of April. Rebecca?

End of March.

Yes, end of March.

Yes, so we've got a framework in place. We've got some objectives, and it's very linked to our royal charter as well, as a charity. But we're always conscious that the development of strategic plans needs to be in parallel with the investment review, because—

Okay. So, therefore, can you give us a mission statement for that strategic plan? What's going to be its headline mission?

I think the mission statement is that the arts are there to benefit the well-being of the people of Wales.

I think that is in process—

To be continued, yes.

—and it certainly isn't going to be contradictory to what's in the guidance for the investment review and those fundamental principles. It's the development of that, and that will be published in March.

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I have no more questions.

It would be useful to have a conversation in March or April, in that case. I think sometimes you are in a difficult situation, if I'm quite honest, because it is quite difficult to say, 'This is what we want to do.' The earlier question from Tom Giffard, 'What is your vision for opera?'—different people have very different competing and sometimes complementary visions of what opera should be, in terms of what its reach is in Wales, and I don't think one or the other is necessarily right or wrong, but it's a different vision and it's very difficult to measure that, then. I accept that. However, it is important, if as a Parliament we try to hold you to account, that we are able to measure your success and to hold you to account for the success or the failure—whatever it happens to be. Therefore, I'm interested—. None of you answered the question I asked earlier about the previous strategic plan, and that's fair enough if you don't want to answer the question. But in terms of your next strategic plan, and the three of you will be writing that in different ways, will you be establishing very clear targets for what you want to achieve and the timescale for achieving those, and will you be setting targets that we can hold you to account for in terms of the expenditure of public resource in that way? I'm just interested in the approach that you're going to take.

You're absolutely right to question us on this, and, yes, I think—I hope—the committee will see from the piece of published work on the investment review report and decisions that we are holding ourselves to targets. In that document, we've got a list of strategic interventions, and we're saying, 'These are our pledges.' So, yes, we're a relatively new team working together over the last nine months, but, yes, we will be creating—. Our new document that will come out in the spring of next year will have a vision—Hefin, be assured. I won't start on my vision now, otherwise we could be here for three weeks, but, yes, it will absolutely have a vision, and all that work is being done currently in council and with the staff. 

And, yes, we will want to be held to account on it. And I would say that some of those things we will be held to account on will be very granular and specific, and we can see those kinds of things in our widening engagement plan, in collaboration with the museum. You can tick through those things and see how we're doing on them. So, there will be some elements where it's very granular, and some where the ambition and the vision will be broad. And my vision is: I want a thriving, challenging, excellent culture of the arts that is also available to everyone. And I don't see those two things as contradictory. 

I think, just to help, maybe, we currently, and there's no intention to change this—. There will be a strategic plan that will be published, but there's also an annual plan, and in the annual plan is the granular—. You know the word I'm trying—

Granularity. 

Granularity. 

Granularity—in the annual plan there will be the granularity. And, yes, we should be held to account for those. 

Okay. I'm grateful to you for that, because I think it's important to create that structure of accountability. But also, then, going to the earlier question on opera and what have you, for me, as a Member for Blaenau Gwent, I want to know, 'How does this affect the people I represent?' For a child growing up in Brynmawr, or an old person living in Abertillery, or somebody who wants to access the arts from Tredegar—buses don't exist, so, therefore, an investment in Merthyr may as well be an investment somewhere else, because you can't get there. So, how will—and I think we probably will share the same vision for the arts as a part of our civilisation and our experiences as citizens—but how will you ensure that the people I represent have the access to the arts that is relevant and appropriate for them, and how will you ensure that that happens for the people that, say, Llyr represents in a completely different part of the world?

Well, I would be wrong to say we can guarantee that you will both have a high-quality opera delivery in the same year, for example. So, some of it will happen over time, but I would think, if we are talking together in two years' time, and your constituents haven't had more access to the arts, we will have failed. And I think some of that will be through our investment review clients—those clients we know, those big names, or even smaller names in the community—but some of it is also through our arts and health and creative learning. So, in preparation for this, we were looking at some figures for creative learning, and how many people have been touched in Wales last year with our creative learning provision. And some of those will be those constituents and the children of your constituents. And I think the figure was—

It's a great figure—83 per cent of schools in Wales have been involved in creative learning. 

It is—it is great, and I think it's a really important thing. 

And I also think there's, 'How do we build on that pathway?' And I know the work with the creative industries and our MOU with them: how do we help create the pathways so the young person that is inspired because they've had a creative learning provision, or the person who's been engaged with the arts and health provision in their stroke recovery—how do we then help engage them in the wider arts community, because they're our audience? And I've never met anyone working in the arts who wants less of an audience. Artists want more. So, I think that job—. And I think that's why I talked about that way of how do we glue some of our provision together. It's a bit of a luddite way to describe it, but that would be my vision. 

Can I add to that, Chair, if I may? I think we've got a responsibility as well, as an arts council, to change. I think we've got to change in the way that we talk and the way that we actually go out into communities. I think we've started this, coming back off the end of the investment review. But we have to be open. We have to break down this barrier there is. I was in a meeting in Caerphilly, and there were some young people there, and they look upon the arts council as this foreign thing that's happening down in the bay somewhere in Cardiff that they would never approach. And if they were to approach, they wouldn't know how to. And our systems are too complicated. The language that we use is too complicated. So, we've got to look at all of that and we've got to change. And we've got to be confident enough to go out and hear some difficult things, maybe, and then go back and do something on it. Sorry, I'm getting emotional, because I feel quite strongly about that.

The other thing I would say—

Emotion is good, by the way.

The other thing I would say though, in response to your question as well, is that I think we have to learn. We have to use the data that we have to learn, to say, 'Okay, this isn't good enough in certain parts of Wales.' Let's go out. Let's talk to the constituents in those particular communities, and then let's try and force something to happen. Let's say, 'Okay, we're going to have a lottery round, but we're going to close it down, so it's only for X, Y and Z areas of Wales. So, let's see what happens.' And even if we don't get the applications in year one, and it doesn't actually work, let's keep going to year two, but keep that line of communication going so that we're actually forcing change. And I hope then, in two or three years' time, we'll be able to come here and say, 'Well, actually, we said we were going to try and do this. We've learnt a lot along the way, but we are seeing improvement.' But I think we've got to change as an arts council as well.

Okay.

Okay.

Sorry.

No, that's absolutely fine.

We're into our final eight minutes. We might go a couple of minutes over, it that's all right. The crisis situation that's facing so many venues; do you envisage that there would be any permanent closures this winter? And, in terms of any extra funding that you think would be needed as emergency funding for the arts sector, have you discussed that need with the Welsh Government, and what kind of response have you had?

In terms of venues in particular, we are not aware, other than the reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete issue, and it's best not to go there this morning, because we haven't got the detail, although we are aware that that affects two or three venues in Wales—St David's Hall being the main one, obviously. We are not currently aware of any venues in particular that are facing closure due to increased costs, certainly not the ones that we are supporting. As Rebecca said earlier, there has been support to projects. We have actually done top-up funds to make sure that projects are deliverable. There are organisations though who are on the edge. Financially, they are on the edge in terms of the demand for the work isn't there or it seems that it's not there, and they are struggling financially.

I think one of the things that has become clearer to us in the last few weeks, actually, is that local authorities, for example, are having job freezes. So, they're not filling posts in order to save money. And that's true in the university sector. We have art centres in the universities. That's true in the university sector and within health boards. So, that is a risk, I think. It's a risk to communities and it's a risk to what we are delivering.

People are leaving the sector, there's no doubt about that, because it's so difficult to have a sustainable career. And Maggie referred earlier to the MOU with Creative Wales, and training and career pathways is one of the key things we're going to be looking at with Creative Wales, in terms of not only technicians—people always assume it's technicians—it's marketeers, it's producers, it's those with digital skills. And you referenced in your report, 'Behind the scenes', we've already started work with Creative Wales. So, we're also monitoring, by the way, the situation in Ireland with a basic income for actors as well.

Yes, that's really interesting.

It is really, really interesting. It's a pilot scheme, but we are monitoring that very closely.

Thank you. Do you get the impression that the Welsh Government is aware of the extent of the crisis that is facing venues and different organisations in the sector, and have you made a point to them that a certain amount of funding is needed? Is there any data on the health of the sector that you've been able to present to them?

There certainly has been—nine months ago in particular, I'd say. But there seems to be, coming back to us, less demand on us for particular support. That seems to be tapering off. But I think what's happening is that with the new applications and with the new discussions we're having, the costs are already built in. So, the increased costs haven't gone away, but they're actually in the applications as they're coming in rather than an add-on that's needed. So, it's quite interesting; I think we're in that little bit of a change. I think, also, in terms of audiences, I mean, Maggie touched upon it earlier, I think we are 10 per cent below where we were pre pandemic. So, there is improvement. There is improvement, certainly, in terms of theatre and live. Where we're particularly struggling is cinema; cinema is just not coming back to where it was.

And forgive me labouring this point, but because, obviously, the budget situation is being discussed at the moment, is there even a ballpark figure that you could give, or that you have given to the Welsh Government, in terms of what emergency funding might be needed for the sector? Or is that a conversation that you've had with the Government?

That's an ongoing conversation. There isn't a ballpark figure I would feel comfortable in giving this committee this morning, though, to be perfectly honest on that. I think we're in a period of change; I think also the venues are still assessing how the investment review decisions are affecting them as well, because part of it is—. I mean, I think 39 organisations, which includes a lot of venues, to be honest, had a continuation or a standstill of funding, and the response to that was, to begin with, relief, and now we're in that process of, 'Okay. How can we deliver on that with the rising costs?', and that's part of the negotiation we're doing now with venues in particular and other organisations. It would be irresponsible of us, I think, to expect everything to be delivered on a reduced offer. So, it's part of that discussion, and other arts councils have done that in other parts of the UK as well.

I'll just jump on to further questions, the ones later on, as many have been covered already. Could you tell me who has the responsibility for supporting grass-roots music venues? Is it the arts council, or the Welsh Government via Creative Wales?

There are grey areas in terms of multi-use venues, but it's mainly Creative Wales. Creative Wales have been having those discussions, yes.

Okay. Thank you. Earlier, you talked about how the arts contribute across different Welsh Government policy areas, including health, international relations and tackling poverty. How is it funded for work it does in those areas beyond traditional arts activities?

Sorry. I missed that. What was the question?

Okay. Are you happy—? Is the arts council happy with the extent it contributes across different Welsh Government policy areas, for example, health, international relations and tackling poverty?

I think, if I begin, and then you can come in on that. I think our arts and health work and our education, if we call it health and education, our work in those areas, and our international work, is making fantastic contributions. I think the poverty agenda is more complex, and I think I've noticed particularly, in the return from COVID, venues operating a kind of sliding scale of income. Also, I think some of our clients' work is free to air, as it were. So, I think there's also some work to do about messaging. And I think the poverty agenda is, again, interrelated very much with looking at the different areas in Wales. I think there is always more work to do. I'm very aware that we have an ageing population, and how does that work with our arts offer, particularly in rural areas. I was fascinated to find out that one of our arts festivals in the summer, because they're in a rural area, were spending some of their budget putting on transportation and buses, and that seemed like a really innovative way, and also in terms of the green agenda. So, I think there's more work to do. Obviously, our Hynt scheme that Dafydd can talk about has made a massive impact on disability, access to the arts, and that's been a massive success and is now being used as the model for a roll-out across the whole of England. So, that was another first for Wales.

Well, it's the whole of the UK and, actually, Ireland want to be involved now. It's called All In; it'll still be called Hynt yng Nghymru, and that's—. It's not my work; it's the work of the team, over a period of 10 years, in the arts council, but it's a fantastic success story for Wales.

Just to add something there, though, I'd say, in terms of arts and health in particular, we are using our lottery money to support that in terms of education. We are matching an additional £1 million from Welsh Government. The one thing I would say is, we've mentioned partnership working this morning in passing, and that certainly is something we want to develop further. In arts and health, for example, we have a partnership with the Baring Foundation, in particular on mental health issues with young people and cancer patients. But the Welsh Government, of course, are developing a new culture strategy, and one of the things in that has been this concept of partnership working. Well, from the outside looking in, we would also suggest that we need to look at partnership working within Welsh Government, because we have a culture, we get money from one place for arts; we also need support for our education—it's from another place within Welsh Government; we also have arts and health; we also have commitments for the Welsh language. So, that concept of partnership working needs to be working within, as well as on the outside.

Thank you so much. I'm afraid that time has been against us this morning, but really—

Can I just ask my last question, Chair—

Okay.

—about Theatr Clwyd? [Inaudible.] Is it still affordable, given inflation and construction costs? I attended the panto in the big top last night, which was fantastic. So, just really an update on Theatr Clwyd, if that's possible.

Yes. Theatr Clwyd is a fantastic development and it's great to see it happening in Clwyd. It's still ongoing, it's still on track. Yesterday, actually, I signed off a documentation for Welsh Government on a partnership agreement between Flintshire and the trust, and that will enable additional—not additional—but the next phase of funding to be released. So, it's still on track. I have no reason to think otherwise in this meeting today. I wouldn't want to give you the wrong impression. But it's great to see that level of investment. If only we could continue that in other parts of Wales as well.

There might be some questions that we didn't get a chance to reach that we'll send to you, if that's all right, in writing.

Could I ask one question, Chair, if I may?

Yes, certainly.

We were scheduled to present to you the accounts as well, but maybe we can pick that up off-line outside of this meeting.

Right. We'll be able to set that up separately, then. Okay. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you. If I lead off, and just explain that the first important thing is that there are two very different scenarios for us, based on what happens with revenue and with capital. Both are very significant, and both have different implications. So, just to talk about revenue, a flat budget would be very challenging, but we've been told to model against a cut, and a cut that would be significant, and that will be enormously challenging for us. Clearly, like all other organisations and businesses, we are really struggling with rising costs and inflation. We've been very much impacted by the impact of COVID on our commercial operations. So, while visitor numbers are more or less recovering to where they were pre COVID, commercial activities aren't. Some commercial activities actually have pretty much gone—so, things like corporate hire, that were an important income stream for us, filming, which—. We work very closely with Creative Wales. We've benefited from filming, and the writers' strike has meant that there hasn't been more filming coming through.

So, what we're finding is a climate of increasing costs, challenging income—we've had to reforecast our commercial income projection for this year, which is very difficult—and pay awards that are putting significant pressure on our overall budget. So, in year, we have a significant challenge that we're likely to have to use our reserves to meet the cost of the pay rise in year, because it's more than we were advised to budget. But, for next year, we're having to look at a restructuring of the museum and a remodelling of what we do, in order to be able to adapt to what we think will be a new financial landscape. And that means we're going to have to probably be a smaller museum, in terms of we want to continue to deliver with excellence, so we don't believe it will be practical to apply a uniform major cut to every part of the museum, because you do everything then to a poor-quality level. So, we're going to have to be very targeted, and say, 'Actually, our main purpose is this, this and this, and we will protect that, and make sure we can deliver that', as I say, 'with excellence.' And that means, therefore, that we will need to stop certain programmes, perhaps change our opening arrangements, and look at the way we structure ourselves.

If there is a cut to capital, that would be potentially disastrous, because we have such a significant backlog of maintenance. The capital we receive has been increased in recent years, which has been very, very welcome, but we're still not able to keep even a level stage, a steady state, with the maintenance. So, the problem is escalating to a very worrying degree. We have basically indicated, across all the works, which are critical, which are serious et cetera. We can't even keep up with critical works. And at Cardiff in particular, at the National Museum Cardiff, we have a major problem with our mechanical, electrical and plumbing works there that, if we can't get those addressed, we will struggle to function. So, just to be able to get through with the critical works that we need, we would need twice the capital allocation that we have now. If the current capital allocation were reduced, we would have very big concerns for our collections.

No. No, we haven't had any conversation about capital at all. We've just been told to focus on revenue at the moment, so that's what we've done. We understand the Government is under enormous pressure, and we understand we're not alone in this. So, we fully respect the position. There have been different conversations about different figures, but, to be prudent and to be realistic about the size of the challenge that might come, I've advised our team to be modelling against 10 per cent.  

Well, I don't know. It will depend on the size of the cut, and it will depend on the model that we look at. We've got to work out what's the best way to deliver for the people of Wales. So, we've started this process by going back to our charter and our founding documentation to be really clear on what we were established to deliver. And what we're really also focused on is which are the bits where we can add most value for Welsh Government. Our remit letter is very, very broad, and we'd welcome the opportunity to talk with officials about perhaps being able to be more focused within what we deliver for programme for government, because, if you have less money, you can't spread the butter as thinly. So, we're not making any decisions at the moment. We're also not ruling anything out. If the better answer for the collections and for connecting communities with the stories and collections of Wales, if the better option there, is to reduce opening or even to reduce sites, then we will need to look at that.  

We are really worried. So, when you talk about safety of the collection, there are two elements. The collection is completely secure from a perspective of theft and risk from that level—please, don't be alarmed. Where it's not secure, in effect, is from the conditions in which we are keeping it. So, we have inadequate storage. That means that the collection is being kept in conditions that are not appropriate and also in conditions that mean that our conservators can't access it, either to care for it or to make it accessible. So, that's one major concern for my conservation colleagues.

But the other is the condition of the building. So, if you were to come and visit me in my office, just outside the door where you come to where my office is, there are four buckets of water that, pretty much every time I'm in, have got water coming through into the buckets. When we are expecting a storm or heavy rain, we have to put the staff on stand-by, literally, so that they can come into the building in the middle of the night to take paintings off the walls. I'm not exaggerating this—that is what our staff do. We never, ever compromise the safety of the works. We always have staff available. They know exactly what to do. They do it regularly. But that is the reality of my colleagues’ working life at the moment.

So, what about the relationship you have with Welsh Government? Clearly, they're aware of this, are they not?

Yes, and Welsh Government gave us some money to improve the roof at the National Museum Cardiff recently, which was really welcome. Two challenges with it. Firstly, the roof itself consists of 50 different structures, so it's a very complex structure to fix, and you need quite a lot of money to do it. The other thing is that the water ingress is actually connected as much to the fabric of the building as the roof, so we have lead piping and things like that, so it comes down into the building, even if the roof—and out into the building, which is then where colleagues get worried about paintings on the walls et cetera. We've alerted Welsh Government to the seriousness of it, and I know, over previous discussions in this forum and others, we've talked about the scale, but across our whole estate we have a £90 million problem, and at National Museum Cardiff our most critical, urgent works are £25 million—which you don't necessarily need to do in one year; you could do that in about four years, in a phased way. But, if we don't do it, the future of that building is of great concern.

So, are you convinced that the Government gets that? Do they understand what the implications are of not receiving that money, and therefore it's a choice that they have to make?

I'm going to provide them with more information, hopefully to ensure that they have got that clarity. I think we have a responsibility as well to make sure they understand exactly the figures and what's needed where. 

And they'll also be watching today's session, which will help them get that clarity. I think you couldn't have been clearer in some of the things that you've said. 

Diolch. What impact has the senior personnel issues at the museum had on the delivery of the museum's policies?

Shall I take that one? Thank you for the question. I'm happy to say that it has had very, very little impact on delivery of policy. The senior team worked as a collective very, very effectively. They ensured that the day-to-day operations weren't in any way affected by what was going on with the very senior leadership, to the extent that, when we shared the news with staff, when the accounts were made public, staff had absolutely no idea it was going on. We continued to deliver against all our policy objectives and won awards for the work that we were doing in a number of different areas. The main impact, really, was on the well-being of the team, the staff themselves—the senior team—and the ability to look forward, if you like. But I'm confident that we didn't fail in any of our policy objectives. Would you agree, Nia?

Thank you. Regarding the recent senior staffing changes, do you agree with the description in the museum's 2023 board minutes that, and I quote, 

'the Museum had received a clean bill of health on how we have conducted matters'?

Shall I take that? Because I think that quote directly refers to the financial element of the 2021-22 accounts, which were not qualified. The qualification was against the regularity opinion. And so that's where that direct quote comes from. 

Okay. I understand that. Do you think that you had a clean bill of health on how you conducted matters, looking back at it?

I think it was a very difficult time, a very challenging time for the amgueddfa and the staff who were involved in that, and the board of trustees. It was an unprecedented set of events that happened, and I think that the organisation has learnt a lot from it. Lessons have already been taken and been implemented, particularly in the way that Jane and I have been appointed and are working together. Processes and procedures have been updated in light of that dispute, and therefore I think we're confident that something like that would not happen again. I think there were areas of governance where procedures could have been strengthened, and the auditor general refers specifically to some minute taking that occurred during that period. I'm very clear that, once again, that would not happen under my watch, and we are looking at a review of our governance processes as per the recommendations in the tailored review to ensure that those are strengthened and modernised. 

Thank you. I'm glad to hear that you've a degree of confidence that something like that would not happen again. You've already touched on this question, but what operational changes, if any, are you making following the publication of the Audit Wales report?

So, if I could refer to the tailored review, which was undertaken following some of the dispute, that has 77 recommendations. Twenty or so of those relate to governance, and so those are the ones that I'm taking particular priority over at the moment. A couple of the operational ones to particularly refer to: the titles of president and director general have been changed, so Jane and I are chief exec and chair. That's not just a symbolic, titular change. I think that reflects, really, an increased clarity over the roles and responsibilities that Jane and I inhabit at the amgueddfa. Those have been clarified, and I am very glad that Jane's terms and conditions have also been updated in light of some of the difficulties and issues that have arisen with that particular situation.

There will also be work ongoing to review the governance framework of the amgueddfa. We are doing a compliance review against the Charity Commission's terms of reference for larger charities. Our corporate governance manager is currently working on that, and that will report out by next April, so we should have assurance that we have compliance with that code of governance emanating from the Charity Commission. We are also looking at a revised partnership agreement with the Welsh Government as well, to update and strengthen the existing framework agreement that is currently in place.  

Diolch yn fawr.

Yes. I'm surprised by the answer that Ms Richardson gave to an earlier question, actually. I'm not sure that it's entirely credible to argue that these matters were unknown to staff at the museum. I'm not sure that that's an entirely credible argument to try to put. This is something that was played out in public. We were reading about it in newspapers and watching it on the media. My concern is that that is bound to have an impact on the morale of an organisation. You lose the senior leadership in these circumstances, and it doesn't go unnoticed.

I'm very glad to hear of the steps that have been taken since then, and I recognise that that has happened. But it leaves me with the question: what, then, about everybody else who works in the institution? And what, then, about the morale of people who work in the institution? I have worked in organisations where I am reading about what's going on in the papers, and it does impact on morale and it does impact on the sense of internal culture, and it does impact on the ability of people to do their jobs.

I hope that I didn't misrepresent the situation. I was responding specifically about how it impacted our ability to deliver policy. I'm very confident about that. Clearly, culturally, it was very difficult for the senior team and the managers, who were hearing this above them and being impacted by it.

In terms of the morale for the organisation, the big hit has been since the information all became public. As I have said, people don't do this just as a job. They do it as a vocation, and as a passion, and they have been deeply upset by it all. So, it has had a major impact on morale—huge. As a senior team, we have really been trying to focus on that.

Kate have been trying to be very visible. We are out on sites. I have been out every day, and I'm back in Caerleon this afternoon. So, we are trying to be very present for the staff to give them the opportunity to express what it means for them and then to look at how, collectively, we go forward together.  

I'm glad to hear that, and I'm grateful to you. Diolch iti. In terms of where you are today, we have had this issue. So, what actions are you taking? What is your analysis of the internal culture of the museum and where the museum is today? And where are you going in terms of addressing any issues that arise from that analysis? What actions are you taking?

I'm doing quite a lot to look at culture and to make some changes. For whatever reason, perhaps because of what's been going on in the last few years in particular, there has been, perhaps, a nervousness around decision making and around confidence going forward. Perhaps leaders within the organisation at all levels haven't felt empowered to be able to deliver on the expertise that they have and what they know is in the best interests of the museum.

I think the big change that I'm trying to make is to be very collective in the way that we lead, very collaborative, and to make sure that the people who are the experts in the museum are able to make the appropriate decisions within their field. Not everything has to come right the way up to a committee for decision et cetera. That's quite a big piece of work and the directors are helping me with that, but I think it's something that will stand us in good stead for these challenges that are coming. 

Thank you. You mentioned earlier that 20 of the tailored review themes related to governance. What are the other key themes in the tailored review? And are they dependent on specific funding for you to be able to carry them out? 

Shall I start on that one? There are a number of different themes in the tailored review: governance is a major one, equality, diversity and inclusion, operational practices, sustainability et cetera. The tailored review had a very wide remit and it took the breadth of that remit very seriously, as you can appreciate with the 77 recommendations. Since we had the report in the summer time, and since Jane and I were both appointed, and I'm leading on the tailored review implementation process, we've put together a task and finish group. There are now project initiation documents against the majority of those recommendations, and staff have got to work on those. Twenty of them have already been completed, and the others are ongoing and will take a varying degree of time, given the variety of complexity in each of those recommendations. So, there are some things that we can do relatively simply and that will be completed by April of next year. There are other things that require partnership working and delivery across a number of different organisations, including the Welsh Government themselves, that will require more thinking through, more consideration, and more joint implementation. 

In answer to your question about the finances, for the majority of the recommendations, we are estimating between £550,000 and £640,000 for their implementation. But that doesn't include a considerably larger sum against the recommendations for capital maintenance that are in the tailored review, and some of the broader recommendations around reigniting the Historic Wales partnership and looking at efficiencies around some of the back-room support services throughout those cultural and heritage organisations across Wales. 

We should probably just highlight that, for our colleagues in the library, when they had the tailored review, obviously a budget came with that to deliver, but that isn't the case with us. 

Thanks for that clarification. That was my next question. 

Oh, sorry—

No, you anticipated it. You're in sync. This is good. 

The tailored review also calls for an entrepreneurial culture to be embedded in the museum, and, in 2017, Dr Thurley said that the commercial performance of the museum was 'extremely poor'. So, has anything changed since then? And is that something that you're looking to do as well going forward?

We've made good progress against that. We've had a director specifically appointed on business improvement, our colleague Nia Elias, and she has some excellent colleagues working alongside her on our commercial functions. So, we now have a much greater understanding of the way in which our commercial operations work and how we could increase the profitability of them. That will require some changes in some of the ways that we operate. As I was saying earlier in response to the question about changing culture, I think there has been perhaps previously a sense that you had different functions within the museum and commercial was one of those functions, whereas going forward, in the new financial landscape, income generation is going to have to be part of everybody's role and everybody's going to have to be engaged with it. So, that's what Nia and her team are looking at. And we've also got some really exciting ideas and opportunities for new income generation. We're looking to bring forward self-catering accommodation at St Fagans, for example, and asking if we can have capital investment for those sorts of projects that would enable us to generate more of the money that we need to be able to deliver against our core purpose. 

That sounds very interesting—self-catering at St Fagans, my favourite place. 

Come and stay. 

I'd love it. And the gardens are beautiful too. Thank you, Chair.

Diolch. It does sound lovely, actually.

Given some of the constraints that you've already talked about, I imagine widening engagement is going to be a challenge. So, how much of the widening engagement action plan has been implemented? And do you have sufficient resources to deliver the rest of the plan?

I'm looking here at some of the proposals that you've been making, and I'm interested, following on from the question from Hefin and the answer, in terms of taking the museum forward. It goes back to the first question answered, actually, and some of the capital stuff, possibly. Can you talk me through the proposal on the museum of the north?

Well, I can and I can't, because it's a Welsh Government proposal, really, so that's not—

I presume you're involved in it.

Colleagues have been, because we were asked to explore how we could deliver that at Llanberis. At the moment, I understand that the Welsh Government are reviewing that proposal and what it means, and we're not specifically tasked to deliver that at the moment. What we're very committed to is delivering the national museum in the north at Llanberis. And our proposals—

What's the difference?

Well, it means that we don't try and tell the whole story of north Wales on that one site, and we're not being tasked by the Welsh Government to do that. We're going to transform the visitor experience in Llanberis, but not just in the way that we tell the story of slate, which is so fundamental to the story of Wales, but through that project we're going to create a space there that will mean for the very first time we can take items from the collection here in Cardiff up to the north, so they can be on display. We can have changing exhibitions from the museum's national collection in the north, whereas before it was a much more limited offer. So, in terms of Welsh Government's museum of the north, that's really for them, but what we are committed to doing is improving and developing the offer for the communities in north Wales, based out of Llanberis, and working in even closer partnership with our partner galleries in the north, which we've already started doing through the contemporary art gallery scheme.

The committee visited the National Slate Museum in Llanberis, I was going to say a year ago, was it? It could have been a bit longer, actually.

I think it was around a year ago.

Yes, and we had a presentation from Dafydd Wigley about the world heritage site, and I have to say it was inspirational. It was first class, both the presentation and the vision that went alongside it. I actually enjoyed it. It was the first time I'd visited Llanberis, and I thoroughly enjoyed the opportunity to explore the place. So, your answer confuses me, quite honestly, about the purpose of Llanberis, because the description that we had from Dafydd Wigley was very much that this would be a centre point of the explanation of the world heritage site in terms of slate and the communities created by the slate industry and all the rest of it, and that Llanberis would be a point of that. I thought it was a great model of how to take our history and reinterpret it in situ for people to understand. But that's not the history of north Wales.

No. Well, not the whole—

It's not the history of the part of north Wales where you live, Llyr, and it's not the history of large parts of north Wales. So, it confuses me, therefore, that we would invest in this concept and then try to do something else there as well.

I don't know what's happening with the museum of the north. What I do know is, for the slate—

Yes, yes, but I was thinking about your answer to the previous question.

So, we are delivering a world-class museum experience to understand the story of slate, and we're delivering that through levelling-up funding and, hopefully, through a bid to the National Lottery Heritage Fund, which we'll hear about in January, and a contribution from Welsh Government. We are not involved in any discussions at the moment about delivering a museum for the north. We don't know what that looks like and what it might mean, and it has no relation with what we are doing in Llanberis.

But in the previous answer, you said that you were going to create some sort of space there.

I live in the north, and when I told everybody I was going to join the national museum, nobody knew what it was, because everyone knows it's the amgueddfa llechi, but they don't know what the national museum is, because that's something that happens down in Caerdydd. What the people of the north have never had access to is the national museum's wider collection. So, we're not going to create a museum of the north, but we are going to give the people of north Wales access to more of the national museum's collection that they currently couldn't access unless they came to Cardiff, so artworks that previously would remain here will be put on display there. So, it's about—

In Llanberis.

In Llanberis, in a specially developed room that will be part of telling that story. Nia, do you want to come in?

So, just going back to the answer, you will be taking items from Cardiff—I've got no issue with this, by the way—but you'll be taking items from Cardiff that are related to slate and related in a historical way to north Wales, and putting them in Llanberis, or taking them there on a—

We can put exhibitions on. So, we were able to acquire, through a generous legacy and art fund money, a set of watercolours by the artist Paul Sandby, which are watercolours purely of north Wales taken on a grand tour. They've never been on display before, and it would be wonderful if the very first time that they could be on display, now that they've been conserved, et cetera, would be in north Wales rather than in Cardiff.

I just want to clarify, because I'm not clear where you're going. So, the national museum in the north is going to be the slate museum with all the issues around the world heritage site, which is going to be enhanced by relevant parts of the collections from Cardiff, which will be moved there. For example, you’re not going to take some of the impressionists to Llanberis.

It’ll be about telling stories that are relevant to the communities of north Wales on a temporary changing basis, because other museums that we have have facilities to be able to refresh the offer. In Llanberis, it’s very static, so there’s no reason for people to necessarily visit multiple times, so it’s creating that fluid space for items, as you say, that are relevant, that the people otherwise couldn’t see.

Okay. But it’s not a means of people accessing other artefacts from Cardiff that wouldn’t be specifically related to north Wales. So, let’s use some of the ceramics, for example, which you have there, or some of the impressionists, which are not related to north Wales specifically: they would stay in Cardiff.

Yes.

In the Senedd, we had a really good display; it was a curlew and auk event, which had been worked on with Sean Harris and the team from the Clwydian Range AONB, and had some pieces from the national museum, and the display cabinet was borrowed from there. I think it’s the first time we’ve had a display of that kind in the Senedd. It was really good. But I was was asking somebody from the museum if that could be taken to the north, because it was created with people from the north of Wales as well, and we have different venues now that have been developed as town centres have become—they seem to be changing to be creative centres now, as they’re diversifying from just the normal shopping centres. So, for example, Wrexham has changed a lot; there’s Tŷ Pawb in Wrexham. So, would that be something that the museum would support, moving items to different places, so that they could be seen by more people?

Yes, absolutely. I think what we’re really clear on as a team, and our vision going forward, is that we’re not about the buildings of the museum. We are about the collections that belong to the people of Wales, and we’re passionate about getting those collections out into communities where people can find their own story through those collections. I was talking to the chief executive the other day of Maggie’s, which are the care spaces for people suffering from cancer—they’re dedicated facilities—and they have our collection on their walls to lift the experience for people who are in those centres, and it’s about putting the appropriate pieces, depending on their value and their resonance and their relevance, in the right places. But we mustn’t be precious, to think that these items have to be in our four walls. We want to stop being so focused on our four walls, and focused on our collection and how everybody can, as I say, find their story through the collection.

But going back to my earlier question, I think the committee would probably appreciate a bit more clarity from the amgueddfa on some of the answers we've had in terms of where we're going with—. We understand the answer to Llyr's question about the 'museum of the north', which the Welsh Government are responsible for, and we will take that up with Government, but your conceptual stuff for Llanberis, I think we'd like a bit more detail on that, but I won't go after that any more this morning.

But in terms of where the museum is going and in terms of the approach that you're taking, the Welsh Government does have some very clear ambitions for how the museum will operate. To what extent are you talking to the Welsh Government about the—? You've got a new senior team in place, so you will have new and different ideas about what you're going to see in the future or what you want to see in the future. To what extent are you having conversations with the Welsh Government about that approach and how is that affecting your vision for the future of the museum?

I think that one of the things that I've been most encouraged by since starting—I think as the others indicated—is that we have such a strong relationship with our partners in Welsh Government. It genuinely feels like a team—that we're looking at the same things. I was meeting with our lead civil servant for culture just on Friday, not for a formal meeting, but for this kind of discussion to say, 'This is where our thinking is going' and 'Could you help us with this?', and it was really, genuinely collaborative. I felt that they understand what we're trying to do. They've got constraints, clearly, but I also think that both Kate and I were appointed with, obviously, the close involvement of Welsh Government and that we were appointed because we were talking about the kinds of things that they are also interested in. Would you agree, Kate?

Yes, absolutely, and I think there are those formal touch points with Welsh Government: so, biannual meetings with the Minister; I would have an annual appraisal with her; we have the quarterly monitoring meetings with the senior executive team. But, over and above that, as Jane says, there's day-to-day and week-to-week contact. And I think, given how challenging the financial situation looks set to be, those weekly, daily touch points will become even more critical. So, absolutely, there is no reason to think that those wouldn't continue in the same vein as they have.

So, the relationship is good on a formal and informal basis, and that's a good thing. I'm glad to hear that. So, how does that affect your thinking and how do those conversations affect your thinking? For example, to what extent do you see yourselves as delivering on the approach taken by the Welsh Government in terms of its approach to health and education and the new curriculum and all the rest of it? To what extent do you see yourselves as almost deliverers of policy?

I think we've always got to be aware that we have two masters, or three, really. We have our royal charter and we have our remit letter from Government. We also answer to the Charity Commission, but they don't prescribe in the same way. And what we want to be able to do is ensure that we are able to deliver against the programme for government in a way that is in line with our charter.

I do think we are ideally placed to deliver against some of the Government's key priorities. I think we're doing very exciting stuff against the curriculum; we're doing very exciting things against skills. You've heard Nia talk about well-being. We want to be one of the leading organisations in the UK on anti-racism, so we want to help the Welsh Government lead the charge on that and push boundaries. So, there are very clear things that we think that we can do to deliver on policy.

At the same time, I also feel that, because of the financial changes coming, we won't be able to do the broad range across the whole of the programme for government that, maybe, we might have been expected to do before. I would like us to be able to specialise, with excellence, on the bits where we can make a real difference on the programme for government, where there's really strong policy alignment. 

So, which bits are you going to focus on and which bits aren't you going to focus on?

If you look at our charter, we were set up for the advancement of the education of the people of Wales. And we see education probably as a looser term now; education is an enjoyable thing where anybody can learn in our places, whether that's having a day out with the kids, or whether it's doing some in-depth research with our collections. So, anything around education. And we would see everything around the widening engagement that Nia was talking about—we think the inclusivity agenda is something that the amgueddfa is really well positioned to deliver, because we should be about all the stories in all the communities of Wales, and therefore we should challenge ourselves to be as inclusive as possible. So, when it comes to things like education and widening engagement, we think we can lead the way. If you read the remit letter, there are specific things about, perhaps, informing green policy or supporting sustainable transport, which probably will be a bit more of a stretch for us, going forward.

It was lovely; the other day, I went into our Clore learning centre and one of the learning officers was in there, she was getting ready for a group coming. She said, 'Oh, Jane, we're doing something new; we're actually delivering against the maths curriculum through the museum'. She said, 'I want to show schools how museums can deliver maths'. And she was talking to me about all of the techniques she was using, and I thought, 'This is brilliant, and this is what civil servants would love to hear, how the museum can bring maths alive'. Fantastic.

And this parent would like to hear that as well, I can tell you. Can I just ask you one more question, then, in terms of this wider remit? I said earlier that I like the philosophical approach, but I'm not sure about what it actually delivers in reality. And I'm always aware that most of our communities will have a local museum—I can think of museums in my own constituency—that are run by volunteers. They're usually in local authority settings, and all the rest of it. And I'm thinking to what extent can the expertise that we have in the national museum be employed to help not so much to promote in a marketing sense, but to help curate and to build up the power, if you like, of the network of museums that we have across Wales.

Because if we talk about telling our stories, well, my story started and continues at the moment in Tredegar, for example. So, the museum in Tredegar tells me of people who I knew, who I remember growing up. And the museum in Ebbw Vale tells the story of steel in Ebbw Vale. In Abertillery and Brynmawr, you've got that local history of iron, coal and the rest of it, and sport as well. That speaks to us of our own histories, all our different histories, and it appears to me that one of the powers, if you like, of the national museum is to be able to spread good practice, to build up a more convincing narrative, if you like, of that history and an explanation of what that history is for everybody. And in terms of what you were just saying, Nia, in terms of bringing the curriculum alive, it appears to me that that partnership between the national and the local is something that could be more powerful than, perhaps, it has been. 

And that's what gets me really excited. That's why I went for this job, because that's the kind of country Wales is. We can operate in that way. And I think you're absolutely right; there are things that, as Amgueddfa Cymru, we can do to support those local museums, and there are things that we can learn from them. This would be a very reciprocal, collaborative, equal relationship. Those museums you've talked about have much greater expertise in their bodies on those subjects than we have. So, it's coming together, recognising where there are different pockets of expertise and opportunity. And for me, success will look like—. If you come to one of the amgueddfa sites now, if you look at the back of the leaflet, it shows the dots where the amgueddfa sites are in Wales. For me, the future looks like you get an amgueddfa leaflet and it shows all the museums of Wales—'If you come to Wales, here's your nearest set of museums' because we're an ecosystem and a network that are working together, because there are so many stories that collectively make the single story of Wales. So, I absolutely agree with you. That's what we are determined to do.

Thank you very much again for your time this morning. Diolch yn fawr iawn.