National Assembly for Wales

Diolch yn fawr. Bore da. Good morning, everybody. First, I would just like to say how grateful I am for this opportunity to support your work this morning. I spend a lot of my time with the Public Accounts and Public Administration Committee, but I'm always very pleased to try to support the work of other committees as well.

I thought I'd start very briefly, if I may, just by explaining why Audit Wales has been active in this area at all, as it's not really traditional territory for an audit institution, but the climate and biodiversity emergencies are the defining challenges of our age, and the scale of the challenges and risks involved are such that action is needed by every part of the public sector in my view, and that's why I want Audit Wales to be active in this space. We are not technical experts, but we are uniquely placed to provide commentary on how the bodies that we audit are managing their response to the emergency, and hopefully to help you and others to hold Government and public bodies to account for their climate commitments and action. That's why I've made responding to the nature and climate emergencies one of four pillars of my work programme for the remaining years of my time as auditor general.

Very briefly, as well as the report on decarbonisation that you have seen, we've recently delivered work on decarbonisation in fire and rescue authorities, flood risk management, and Steve and the team are currently looking at decarbonisation plans in each principal council. We're also working with our sister audit agencies around the UK on a piece of work, hopefully out in the summer, that will look to describe and compare net-zero approaches across the nations. Looking forward, we anticipate doing some work on active travel, on biodiversity decline, and on public bodies' responses to the Environment (Wales) Act 2016. So, if any, or all of those, would be of help to you, we'd be delighted to assist.

Turning to the report that you're using as the base for your inquiry, as you know, the Welsh Government has set what it describes as a collective ambition for the public sector to achieve net-zero carbon emissions by 2030. My report last July looked at how the public sector is preparing to achieve that ambition. I want to stress that it was a baseline review. It looked at 48 public bodies—all of the councils, health bodies, sponsored bodies, et cetera. But I want to stress that it was a high-level piece of work. It relied heavily on public bodies' opinions about their current preparedness, and about the likelihood of success in delivering the collective ambition. Nonetheless, it does, in my view, provide a valuable baseline that we're seeing is already having some positive impact.

Alongside the main report, you may have seen that we've published a more detailed evidence report. We held an online event to test our findings, and we published a number of blogs to promote the work. 

The overall conclusion from our work was a pretty stark one. We found very obvious uncertainty amongst public bodies about their ability to meet the 2030 collective ambition; a very obvious commitment to carbon reduction, underpinned by lots of enthusiasm and clear intent, but we also found some significant and common barriers to progress that need to be addressed. Fundamentally, we found that public bodies need to ramp up their activities significantly, to increase collaboration, and to place decarbonisation right at the heart of their day-to-day operations and decision making. 

We also made clear that very significant long-term investment is needed, particularly for infrastructure. And while the Welsh Government is providing financial support in several ways to the public sector, the report also made clear that public bodies need to think in different ways, to repurpose existing funds, and consider how they can share costs with others. 

Because of the high-level nature of the work, I decided not to make specific recommendations, but instead to make the five broad calls for action that you've seen. I've written to public bodies asking them to publicly set out how they intend to respond to those. If I may, I'll just briefly run through those five and put a little flesh on the bones. 

The first call was for public bodies to strengthen their leadership and demonstrate collective responsibility. That means demonstrating an understanding of the urgency and the scale of the emergency. It means being bold, innovative, and sharing experience. I've made clear that I won't criticise public bodies for taking well-managed risks to address this challenge. It means also those charged with governance in the public sector providing challenge to the bodies they're responsible for, to ensure that all that can be done is being done. And as I said earlier, it means placing decarbonisation right at the heart of day-to-day business. So, in your further sessions today, and looking forward, I think it will be interesting to hear from other organisations about whether they feel that the public sector has taken on board this call for action, and what, if anything, has been done differently over the nine months since we reported. 

The second call for action was for public bodies to clarify their strategic direction, and to increase their pace of implementation. So, we saw that public bodies were very positive about the strategic direction that had been set by the Welsh Government, but they were at very different stages of implementation, and a clear need for further assistance to help translate that strategy into action. So, while there are huge competing demands on the public sector, this particular call is about ramping up that decarbonisation action across the board.

One particular issue that I think it would be helpful to explore further is the fact that, while the public sector as a whole is aiming for net zero by 2030, the NHS has a separate plan that aims for a 34 per cent reduction in that time frame. This feels to me like an area where some further clarity would be helpful, because, clearly, if the NHS is going to deliver a 34 per cent reduction, we need to know what the implications are for other sectors if we're to achieve the collective ambition.

The third call is around finances and the need for public bodies to get to grips with the finances they need. We found that most public bodies have not yet fully understood the financial implications of meeting the ambition. Only two bodies that we worked with said that they felt they had that full understanding. There was uncertainty about what funding would be available. The Welsh Government, as I've said, is providing support in several ways, but it's also made clear that it will be unable to fund everything.

Since we reported, we know that some organisations have started the work of calculating the cost of decarbonising. So, one example would be Swansea Council, which has said it believes it will cost in the region of £190 million for it to reach net zero. We know that many other bodies have found it challenging just to get to that stage of calculating what the figure will be, let alone to work out how best to afford it.

Sorry, did you say 'billion' or 'million'?

'Million', for Swansea.

The fourth call for action was for public bodies to identify where they have skills gaps and increase their capacity to deal with decarbonisation. Public bodies are all competing with one another and the wider economy for some specialist skills, and they're doing that at a time, of course, when resources are extremely stretched across the board. So, we would suggest the public sector needs to do more to understand the specific skills and capacity that they need to explore how best they can share resources and to train and develop their own staff. Again, I'd suggest it would be helpful if the committee were able to unpick a little what different sectors are doing to address that particular challenge.

The fifth and final call for action was for public bodies to improve data quality and monitoring to support their decision making. The quality of data is a theme that we comment on in lots of our work. It's a very common challenge and weakness that we identify, and it was certainly the case in this area. So, we found that data issues are a major barrier to having a shared understanding of the problem and, therefore, to be able to take the strategic decisions necessary. Public bodies have found it challenging to comply with the Welsh Government's requirements for reporting emissions data, though we would acknowledge that the Welsh Government is and has made progress in that area since we reported. In your further sessions, you may want to ask witnesses about their levels of confidence in the new reporting requirements, whether they now feel that we have a solid foundation for using data to prioritise actions and, if not, what more is needed.

In terms of response to our work, I've been really pleased with the way the report has been received. The team and I receive frequent requests to speak at events and so forth, which is a positive sign in terms of adding to the impetus in this area. The feedback generally is that it's been helpful to have the baseline position set out, helpful to have five clear calls for action, and helpful for Audit Wales to be adding its weight to the need for general acceleration in activity.

It's early days in terms of the responses of the public sector to our report, but it's an area of work that we'll be returning to over the next couple of years to see how things are progressing. One thing we have seen is that the report is being referenced by boards and other senior decision-making forums in public bodies as they decide what further action to take. And in terms of the Welsh Government, the response that I received from the director general for climate change and rural affairs was a positive one, welcoming the report, welcoming and recognising the calls for action, and welcoming our work in creating and supporting that momentum. But as I've said, we'll be continuing to work in this area and monitoring what the Welsh Government itself is doing over the next couple of years.

Chair, I think I'll probably stop there. Thank you once again. Between myself and Steve and Sian, we will hopefully be able respond to any questions that you have. Diolch yn fawr.

Excellent, thank you so much for that. I know Members will be keen to pursue particular aspects. I just wanted to ask about your decision not to issue recommendations, as such. I mean, the five calls, I get. Were there not certain recommendations that maybe you could have made to Government particularly, given that they have that central, driving, facilitative role? I'm just wondering whether that was something that maybe you considered.

It was a piece of work that was wide-ranging in its focus. So, unlike many pieces of our work, it was not focused specifically on the Welsh Government. So, we looked at Welsh Government as part of it—

I understand that, albeit a critical part of it, I'd imagine.

Absolutely. So, the calls for action that we gave in the report apply just as much to the Welsh Government as an organisation—an important organisation in its own right—but, clearly, it has an added weight for the Welsh Government because of its position as system leader for everyone else. And, as I said, several of the calls that we see from the bodies that we worked with look to Welsh Government for greater assistance to support them in fleshing out the costings and so forth.

There we are. Because the evidence we've received in the engagement that we've had with various organisations clearly see Government—. As you say, you look at the Government as part of the public sector in the way that you've approached this, but the stakeholders that come to us say that Government really needs to do this, that and the other to unlock this work.

Absolutely. I think we would recognise that, but we would also stress that the Welsh Government alone cannot address this challenge. 

No, and I would agree.

By definition, it's something that requires effort right across the public sector.

Sure. Okay. Lovely.

And just to add to that—

Yes, sure.

—we deliberately went in the calls for action for really broad ways of thinking to tackle this problem rather than specific, drilling down to nitty-gritty issues because these are such big problems that we thought needed to be addressed. So, we didn't want to diminish the big thinking behind these calls for action by having smaller, specific recommendations in this case.

There we are, and with 780 organisations in the public sector, I suppose you need to take that sort of wide focus. Yes, okay. Huw, and then we'll come to Jenny.

Just the big question, first of all: with all of the challenges that you've identified—so, the lack of a full cost analysis across the public realm of the real cost of doing this decarbonisation, the skills, some of the granular things that you haven't touched on, I suspect, as well—from your perspective as an organisation, seven years away from 2030, I guess it's the big question of can the public realm turn this around rapidly enough in order to deliver it, in your view? I just want to get a flavour of this because, seven years, it's a big mountain, can it be done?

It is a seriously big ask. So, I think, if you look at the route-map that the Government set out, our view is that we're probably already behind where that route-map suggests that we need to be at this stage.

Yes. And you touched on things like leadership as well, and the genuine leadership beyond—. I suspect, what you're hinting at, is beyond the—. Everybody can agree to the rhetoric around this, but then agreeing to the big changes—

Absolutely, because, taking the finance issue alone, the numbers will be extremely high; we're struggling even to put a figure on it yet, let alone to work out how that might be affordable. In my view, the sooner we do that, the sooner the political conversations and decisions that need to be taken can be addressed. It is incredibly challenging, I would say, to get to that position within the next seven years.

Is there anything that you can draw on in the experience of yourselves or the UK audit bodies that can say that we've hit similar challenges before and have done it, or have near enough done it? Sorry, I keep on pushing because I'm trying to get a real sense of can we do this.

No, not at all, and I can feel Sian is desperate to get in, so I'll come to Sian very shortly. Two things I would say. Firstly, I think the stretching nature of the challenge that the Government has set in and of its own right is a good thing to have done, because part of the challenge here is to get our heads into the sheer scale of the challenge, and targets and ambitions of this sort can often serve a valuable purpose by acting as a spur to action, and what we have seen through our report, I would say, is very definitely it has had that positive effect. That's different to whether or not we will get there; it is a positive in its own right.

The second thing, to your second question, Huw, around is it possible to get there, I guess one analogy I'd look to is the response of the public sector through the pandemic. When the whole of the public sector was genuinely pulling in the same direction for a shared common goal that we all recognise, it did absolutely incredible things. Unfortunately, I think once that pressure and that clarity of purpose is taken away—in the case of the pandemic, to a degree—we start to splinter a little bit and go back to old ways. One of the things that I think is critical in this whole space is for there to be alignment and consistency between all of the signals that Government sends—and Jenny will have heard me say this before in the public administration committee—around the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) 2015 Act. It's great to have this high-level clarity of purpose, but it needs to be backed up by other policy decisions, other pieces of legislation, other spending priorities that act in a consistent and coherent way rather than acting against. Sian, do you want to—? I know you wanted to come in.

Yes, I did. I suppose the example that I would draw, in terms of is there a parallel and have public bodies done this before, is that you could look at waste management and recycling, because, 20 years ago, we were at 5 per cent. There's been a sustained drive, there's been a partnership approach between Welsh Government, local authorities, other partners, and we've got to what is the second highest recycling rate in the world. So, it can be done. That took 20 years, and that was a small bit. So, there are definitely parallels, but this is a challenge on a different scale, to be sure.

Sorry, I don't want to hog it, but can I just ask you what were the factors that made the material difference to do that particular piece of work? Was it legislation, was it legally binding targets, was it just that everybody went, 'Yes, we've got to do this, because we're a basket case', because it was at the time? What was it that created the sustained drive to say, 'We're going to hit this and we're going to hit it by this date'?

I think, originally, it was European legislation that pushed this through. Yes, it was the—

More the stick than the carrot, then.

Yes, in that situation, it was the stick.

So, is there a requirement, then, for something more clear in legislation now, on this 2030, than we already have, or is it all there? Do you think the driver is already there legislatively?

It's a very different situation, though, isn't it? That's a very specific example of local authorities delivering a specific service and they had that within their control; this is a much broader subject to be tackling.

Whether or not putting this into legislation would make a difference, I don't know. We didn't get the impression, through our work, that it was not being taken seriously by the public sector because it was not legislative. But I'd go back to the point I made earlier: you need to make sure that everything is aligned and everything is complementary, and that we're not sending conflicting signals to individual organisations or parts of the public sector through other actions that we take. And that, with respect, is partly a job for committees such as you, because you see that bigger picture.

Okay. Thank you, Huw. Jenny. And, just to say, then I've got Joyce and then Delyth as well. Jenny.

I've got three questions. One is is the Welsh Government up to the job? They've got the loudest megaphone when it comes to convincing public bodies, but I'm not sure that they're keeping up with the latest technology. So, for example, Sero, who gave evidence to us a month or so ago, are saying,

'Delaying heat pump adoption by insisting on a 'fabric first' approach increases initial costs and carbon emissions, and extends our dependency on fossil-fuels, without providing any significant upside.

'There is a common misconception that heat pumps are only effective in well-insulated homes.'

The rest of the narrative is publicly available. But, yet, the Welsh Government continues to insist that we should not be installing heat pumps because there are costs to it. Now, the experts in the industry, the ones who are leading the way on this, are saying the opposite. So, that worries me, because, if the Minister's not getting up-to-date information about what the industry thinks is happening, and the latest advice—. It's all taking too long—the optimised retrofit, and we're going to assume we're going to get the learning from all that. There's an emergency on here. So, that's my first question.

I notice that 60 per cent of the reduction is due to happen in procurement in the public sector. Is the Social Partnership and Public Procurement (Wales) Act—or Bill, which we signed off last week—fit for purpose in this regard? Clearly, regulations will follow.

And my third thing is just on the thing that's probably the biggest burning hole in most local authorities' accounts, which is swimming pools. They're all going to collapse unless we can quickly move them on to renewables, because, obviously, they are big heat consumers, but I've yet to hear of any local authority in Wales climbing into bed with people who generate heat for the birds, and getting that to be used for swimming pools. Yesterday, Jeremy Hunt did actually provide some money—£63 million—for English swimming pools, so, presumably, somewhere along the line there will be a consequential for Wales, and we need to make sure that we use it not just on Elastoplast but on something sustainable.

Right. Shall I start?

Thank goodness you said that. [Laughter.]

Okay. So, in terms of the Welsh Government and is it up to the job. We say quite a lot of positive things about what Welsh Government's doing; it's doing lots of positive actions, it's set a really ambitious challenge, it's declared an emergency, it's revised its own structures, it's got ministerial portfolios, it's taken lots of actions itself. So, we're not critical, actually, of what Welsh Government is doing, even though this is quite a stark report. Often, that would lead to us being really critical of Welsh Government. We're not doing that in this case.

On the issue about specific technologies—so, heat pumps, for example—one of the issues that public bodies were telling us about was about collaboration, and they told us about good examples of them collaborating on various things. But one of the things they would appreciate is collaboration around technologies. So, obviously, they're reluctant to commit to investing in technologies that are going to be obsolete, or at risk of being obsolete. So, if there's some way of the Welsh Government, or other bodies, collaborating on technologies, for a once-for-Wales type decision on what is possible and sensible, that would be helpful.

Procurement—anyone want to come in on that?

I'm not sure we—. I'm not up to speed sufficiently with the Bill yet, Jenny—forgive me.

Well, it's gone now; we've done it. Obviously, regulations will follow.

Yes. I think all of your questions—. Forgive me for repeating myself, but it comes back to what I said to Huw about the coherence of public policy. Steve's right—coming to the heart of your question about the Welsh Government's own capacity, I'm not sure the Welsh Government would say that it has all of the expertise that it requires in a very technical, wide-ranging, fast-moving space. So, one of the things that has to be part of this is an openness on the part of Government, and all other public bodies, to open themselves up to not to display any kind of organisational arrogance—'We know what we're doing'—because this is difficult territory.

Your third questions was about—

Swimming pools.

Swimming pools—forgive me. Anything we can offer on that?

Nothing specific.

Nothing specific that we've done.

And I appreciate the work you did was a much wider focus, but, clearly, it's one example, isn't it, of the kind of thing—

Well, of getting local authorities to focus on something that's clearly going to blow up in their face, unless they have done some of the things that other swimming pools have done around the country.

Okay. We'll come to Joyce, then, if that's okay.

I was going to focus in on workforce skills. If you haven't got the skill to know what you're supposed to do in the first place, you're in trouble, and probably even that would be the biggest problem, and then delivering what it is you think you're supposed to be doing will be the second issue. So, in terms of workforce skills, the pool is small, competition is high, so that leads me then to the obvious conclusion about collective responsibility and all driving in one direction; in other words, collaboration, which we talked about. Did you see evidence of that so that we could present that evidence going forward, because that's where we have to go, and is it one of the common barriers?

One of the calls for action is about skills capacity. You're right; it's going to take expertise in organisations to tackle this problem. There are limited skills and expertise out there. Organisations are competing with each other, competing with the private sector, which is paying more for these skills. It's a big issue. Did we see examples of people sharing resources? I'm not sure we did. It's definitely something we were interested in and we talked about in the report as a helpful thing to do. 

There's also an issue about upskilling and raising awareness of all people in all organisations. So, the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales has made a recommendation about carbon literacy. The Welsh Government is committing to carbon literacy itself as well. So, specialist skills, but it's also about everyone knowing this is everyone's responsibility. 

But, in a nutshell, did we see examples that we could use as models? I'm not sure that we did, I'm afraid, no. 

Is there, then—? Can I, Chair—? If we're talking about, and we are, bringing this forward and those skills existing in Wales, is there not then some—? Isn't there a space here to recommend also to higher and further education, because they'll be the next generation, otherwise we'll be forever in this trouble—in this position, sorry—which could give problems? Did you think about giving any recommendations in terms of bringing the next early group, if you like, of people into this space? 

We didn't make a specific recommendation in that space. One of the things that I think we would say is there is, potentially, a role for Welsh Government here, as part of its leadership position, to clarify the sorts of skills and expertise that are required. It has levers into the education sphere, obviously, as well, so it could take action to encourage the development of those kinds of skills a few years down the line. But you can't get away from the fundamental fact that you're fishing in a very small pool for some very specialist skills that we don't have. 

No. That's why I—. Sorry, if I can. That's why I said what I said, because you could widen the pool that might come through in the next two or three years. 

Yes. 

Did you want to come in on this, Huw, on the skills question? 

Just very briefly, to add to the point being made already. If that is the case, then we seem to be in a similar situation to skills such as transitioning from highways authorities to more sustainable transport authorities, where there's a lack of expertise within local authorities within that. Welsh Government has recognised it; it's trying to deal with it on a regional basis through Transport for Wales liaising with it. If we're faced with the urgency that we are—and we undoubtedly are—then, clearly, there's a role here, as you describe, for Welsh Government to step in and say, 'If we have those gaps in skills, regardless of developing the pipeline for the future, we need right now to talk about how we embed these skills and support local authorities, health boards and others to do it', because otherwise we're just not going to find the talent, because it isn't out there, so we need to think differently about how we do this. We're a relatively small nation; we should be able to do this on a Wales and a regional footprint.  

Yes. Spot on. I'd say it needs to be done too, mindful of other related areas. The report I mentioned that we produced on flood risk management just recently sent exactly the same message. And what you're talking about there, numerically, a small number of people are required, but they don't exist at the moment. But with concerted, focused action, you could address that particular area, I suspect, relatively swiftly, because you're not talking about hundreds and thousands of new individuals here; you're talking a small number of people with specific technical skills.

I feel that I should mention—it's probably worth mentioning—the work the Welsh Local Government Association does in this context as well. Because they are funded by Welsh Government to support the action within local authorities, and they've set up a number of masterclasses, and they've a number of programmes running. So, they are doing some work in that area, which I'm sure they'll tell you about in future sessions, that is attempting to address some of these skill gaps. There is also the Welsh Government energy service; so, I don't know if you are taking evidence from them, but they also provide some of those technical skills as well. So, there are some green shoots coming through, some support being given.

There we are. Okay, diolch yn fawr. Delyth. 

Diolch. I just wanted to ask, off the back of what Huw was asking earlier about learning from elsewhere, whether—. I know that the climate crisis in so many ways—. Obviously, it is unprecedented, but are there any international examples of states responding in a similar way to any other crisis, or any other states internationally that you think are of a similar scale that they'd be responding that we could learn from, or, conversely, if there are any bad examples that we need to avoid?

We didn't look at this, so—. It's difficult, isn't it? You're doing an audit and you need to do something deliverable. We knew there would have been value in looking at that, but we also thought, 'We've got to deliver something quick' on the specific scope that we were focusing on. But Adrian did mention some work, that we're starting to talk to our sister organisations in the rest of the UK and Ireland. So, we're starting to get some insights about what they're doing, at least. It's very early days, but just some reflections from that: it feels like Wales might be the only one of those nations that has this collective ambition for the public sector, so that feels like a positive thing for Wales, and it feels like Wales might be slightly ahead in terms of public sector reporting and having a common reporting methodology—so, encouraging signs there. I'm sorry I can't give you more detail than that, because we just didn't look at it. 

No, I appreciate that totally. Can I just check, Cadeirydd? Can I just come in quickly? With that future work, would there be any scope for that to be extended to look at other international examples, if it comes up during the course of the research that, 'Oh, actually, New Zealand has done this', or something like that, or is it likely that it will focus on those closer nations?

At the moment it is focused just on our UK counterparts. Clearly, to turn it into a piece of work that looked worldwide for examples of small nations addressing the climate change emergency turns it into a huge and very different piece of work. That said, if there's anything that we can do through our networks with our sister agencies in the UK and around the world that we could usefully draw in, we can certainly try to do that. Just to manage expectations, though, I wouldn't anticipate it being an authoritative account of where's getting it right and where we need to learn from. But if we can provide some pointers and connections then, hopefully, that would still be useful. 

Thank you very much. 

Okay. Just coming back to the collaboration point that we touched on earlier—and I get the need to collaborate around technologies and those kinds of things—are we making best use of the collaboration that already exists, or the structures such as the public services boards, for example? Because my initial thought was, 'Well, we've got the PSBs.' I mean, surely that's where you start. 

We're not short of structures—

No. [Laughter.]

—that are designed to collaborate.

Are we making best use of them, then, is the—?

That is the question, yes.

Okay. [Laughter.] Right. Okay. So, you haven't formed a view, then, have you? Or, at least, you're not saying 'no' or 'yes'. 

The biggest area that we need to tackle—and it goes right across—is the use of energy and energy production, and then it's energy use and energy loss. So, there are clear links then. If you look at energy, you get it right across—you get it in all the things that Jenny talked about, you get it in your housing, you get it in the way you produce goods or don't produce goods, even the way that you dispose of and recycle. And I'm just trying to think my way through here how you could get some collaboration around one theme that really captures all themes, quite frankly. Did you think about, or could you think about, going forward, looking at energy use? Because that is the big issue, quite frankly, that might deliver some of the ambitions that people want to deliver, but also give maybe a hook for that collaboration and that expertise going forward.

Going back to one of the messages in the report is about investment and upfront investment, and I guess energy is a big part of that—. A lot of the feedback we had from public bodies was that finances are a big barrier. So, understanding the costs of their decarbonisation plans is a problem in itself, being able to afford them is another one, the need to invest short term, because it's an emergency, so immediate expenditure is needed, as well as long term, because this is a problem that's not going away, and upfront costs of things like heating systems, electric charging, electric vehicles and fleet, all of those things—I guess energy is in there for me. It's part of this investment challenge for public sector. So, any collaboration on those things, I think, would be really useful. 

I suppose I was just going to add, in terms of the public sector route-map, which identifies the four priority areas, within that there are the buildings and accessibility and transport. So, it's very much—. The energy use through buildings and through transport is very much built in to the approach in that sense, and I suppose those are the areas that have been traditionally looked at, and those are the areas where there's probably the most progress at the moment—there's most support, then, and they are the slightly easier areas to tackle. So, I think some of those things are being picked up, if that's helpful. 

Okay. Just maybe one final one from me then, because we are nearing the end of our allocated time. The conclusion you come to is that it's highly uncertain as to whether this is achievable or not, although in some of the stakeholder feedback that we've had Natural Resources Wales have actually called for the feasibility and viability of the target to be reviewed. So, you mentioned that you'd be revisiting this and tracking it as we move along the journey towards 2030. So, what do you need to see to have that confidence that we're on the right track, or, conversely, what are the alarm bells that will actually trigger yourself maybe, even, declaring that it isn't achievable? 

So, in the language of Audit Wales, things like 'clear uncertainty' is at the upper end of how we frame things. So, I think we're already in that space. 

Okay. 

What do we need to see when we come back to this area? It goes to the fifth call for action around data. So, we need to see concrete progress, and, unfortunately, we're starting from a place where lots of organisations are saying, 'At the moment, we're really struggling even to put a figure on costs and our position at the moment.' So, not optimistic in that area, but that's clearly an area that we need to see significant advance in. As I said at the beginning, it feels as though we're already a little behind where the route-map would hope to have us, and a route-map that is already extremely tight and demanding. 

Okay. Huw and Jenny, very briefly, then, because we are short of time now. 

Yes, very briefly, before you head away then, while we've got you in front of us, you mentioned the NHS's separate plan of 34 per cent reduction by 2030, and you said it would be a good area for us to focus on. Can you give us an idea, just high level, what the implications of this are in your thinking—the significance of the NHS compared to the other public parts of the public realm? So, if they go for 34 per cent, what load does it shift in broad terms? How bigger does it make the mountain for the other sectors to climb? 

Very big. So, I believe the NHS accounts for around a third of public sector emissions. 

Right. 

It's aiming for a 34 per cent reduction. Now, that's a reduction, rather—. To get to net zero you also have to factor in any offsetting or sequestration. However, I think it's reasonable to assume that the majority of the progress needs to be made in reduction, rather than increasing those other areas, realistically. So, a 34 per cent reduction from the sector that is responsible for a third of emissions—I haven't done the maths, but it makes it, I would have thought, almost impossible for the rest of the public sector to pick up that slack.

Okay, it was worth asking. [Laughter.]

If nothing else, it just seems a slightly confused strategic message that we've got clarity at the top level, but then such a big player has a separate and differently framed target.

Right.

On top of that, at the time of reporting, there was considerable doubt about whether the 34 per cent would be met, let alone net zero.

Yes, quite. There's that as well. Okay, Jenny, last word to you.

Capital is in very short supply at the moment. What's your role in ensuring that whatever capital investment is made is fit for the future, rather than having to be ripped out later down the line? I do wonder whether there are any renewables on the Grange hospital, for example.

I mentioned the priorities for my work programme over the next three years. Another stream of that is to look at capital spend and the big capital programmes that we have, and with this theme also being one of the four pillars that I want to focus our work on, I'd want to see that reflected in our examination. It goes back to the point I've made several times about the coherence of approach.

Okay, there we are. Can I thank you for joining us this morning, for sharing your report with us and your reflections on where we are and where we need to be, and what needs to be done between those two points? You will be given a copy of the draft transcript to check for accuracy. But it's certainly a firm foundation for us to build upon now as we look to scrutinise WLGA, NHS and others as part of this work.

Diolch yn fawr. It was a pleasure.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you. So, the committee will now break for 10 minutes. We will start again at 10:30, but we'll reconvene a few minutes before. Diolch yn fawr.

Okay, thanks. I think, clearly, the role with Welsh Government working with the WLGA in particular is about the sharing of information and the sharing of best practice. So, they are funding up, through the WLGA now—the Welsh Government are, that is—£300,000 per year to help us  co-ordinate that work, to make sure that there isn't duplication and where we take a strategic approach across all local authorities. So, that work is ongoing.

In terms of working with Welsh Government, it's a dual role; on the one area, helping us to support in terms of the changes that we want to make in terms of the structures that may be needed, but also around the capital funding. A lot of the areas that we've identified where we need to make some structural changes in public sector will require substantial investment, and while all local authorities have now got a duty and we're looking at, every time we allocate budget, we think about the climate impact and about the carbon footprint that interactions leave, the capital investment potentially for Welsh Government is going to be key in certain areas. So, if I just say that all local authorities now have got plans for transitioning their fleet renewals, but that does come at a huge cost.

So, for example, on the ministerial waste board that I jointly chair with the Minister, that is something that we are raising, and that board now has morphed more into not just about waste and recycling, but it does cover the circular economy and it also covers climate change and that transition, because it is heavily linked. So, for example, when we're looking at our large use of vehicles, such as highways, such as our refuse and recycling vehicles, as present, electric vehicles don't suit all areas, so we're working with Welsh Government on, for example, whether there is a critical mass of vehicles—linked with the bus industry as well, potentially—to move to hydrogen, for example. So, there is that overarching strategic work that the Welsh Government is helping with the WLGA to co-ordinate.

Okay, thank you for that, and Mary Ann, maybe, as the sort of dedicated spokesperson on this for the WLGA, to what extent—? Clearly, there's collaboration with the Welsh Government, which, in fairness, is what I asked about, but what about collaboration within local authorities or amongst local authorities, then? Is that as effective and efficient as it could be, do you think?

I think there are two or three parts to this. I think there's very strong collaboration in terms of information flows between leaders of local authorities and chief executives, and that's both good practice, but also the challenges that we face. I think Andrew touched on that with capitalisation, not just of the fleets, but also retrofitting of buildings.

Where I think we want to develop co-ordination is across the whole of the public sector. Obviously, within local authorities, we have a key part to play, but much of the economies of scale, the transaction costs, the ability to pool resources would be far more effective if we were working across the public sector. I'm a very new leader and I'm seeing shifts already, but I think it will need to be substantive if we're going to move to the target of 2030. 

There we are, okay, we'll drill down on some of those issues as we go along. But, given that you've mentioned the 2030 ambition, can I ask whether you actually think it is feasible or should the target or the ambition of net zero by 2030 actually be reviewed? Is it doable or are we just being unrealistic here?

I think that's the wrong question. 

Okay.

I think it has to be doable. We are in a climate emergency. I think that's something that all local authorities recognise. My local authority passed a motion prior to me becoming leader. We have to find ways—we have to accelerate the ways we meet those targets, and that requires very much joined-up thinking; it requires greater resources; it requires an understanding of where we need to target; how we need to be more strategic in the way that we work together and where we can make the most gains quickly. I think we'll come on to procurement later—we recognise that that is one of the four areas that we can move on.

So, you don't share Natural Resources Wales's view that the feasibility and the viability of the 2030 target should be reviewed.

No, because this is too important.

Yes, okay. Thank you. Andrew, yes.

Yes. Could I say, it's going to be challenging—there's no question about that? But I think the point that Mary Ann made that we should be starting from the point that 2030 is our target and that's what we need to work towards—. So, for example, in my own local authority, we recently had a report, which is coming forward shortly, around where we, as an authority—we're the second largest in Wales, and therefore, we want to show some leadership on this, but it's quite clear we've done a huge amount in recent years and we've got a lot planned in the next few years. But our report is very honest and says that it will not get us to target on 2030 at present. So, that means that we need to use the next 18 months to go further and faster.

So, I think we have to have an honest take on where we are now, and how much we have done and recognise—and I think it's important to recognise the amount that the public sector and local authorities have done so far. In my local authority, we're close now to 50 per cent reduction in our office accommodation footprint on carbon emissions; we've got almost 150 schools and council buildings with solar; we're bringing forward solar farms; we're developing a wind turbine of our own; we have 100 per cent green energy purchase. There are lots and lots of good things being done, but we have to be honest and say that, at present, my authority and several others are not on target for 2030. But we acknowledge that and that's why we're saying that we're going to be redoubling our efforts and look at those areas that Mary Ann mentioned, in particular, procurement and working with some of our other partners, because it isn't just about the services we provide—it's about working with the services that we procure as well.

Yes. Thank you both for that. I think, as you say, it's important to have that target to drive action, isn't it, really? Okay, I'll bring Janet in then.

What or how should or could the Welsh Government be doing more to better support collaboration across all local authorities to ensure that we achieve 2030 ambitions?

I think a good start has been made, if I could say. I mentioned what was formerly called the waste ministerial board, which focused only on recycling and waste collections, but because that board now covers climate change and the circular economy, I think that's a really good starting point. It has a political level, so, for example, they are four regional boards across Wales—. Sorry, I should say that those boards are made up of cabinet members and leaders from across those four regions. Representatives of those four regions then sit on the main board that I jointly chair with the Minister, and we have those regular meetings. But below that, there are lots of working groups, with all 22 local authority officers. And I think that is the crux of what we need to really focus on—it's about sharing. As Mary Ann said, if a local authority is doing something really well in an area, we need to make sure that that is rolled out in other areas.

And we have to also recognise that one size doesn't always fit all. Obviously, I'm taking forward, for example, four or five, potentially in the next six months, hydro schemes, potentially. Well, that doesn't fit in all areas, clearly. But they are good practice, I think, and we need to take those ideas, but not be afraid also to look outside Wales at some of the best practice the Welsh Government is identifying for us with the WLGA. It's about looking at what is being done elsewhere, not just across the border in England, maybe, but also in Europe. I think it's getting those really good interventions that make the biggest impact as quickly as possible.

Thanks, Andrew. How effective do you think the public sector route-map is in providing a strategic direction to achieve those goals and for public sector bodies to decarbonise?

I think overall it's useful, but clearly there is a challenge for the public sector. Funding is crucial to this. There are decisions that public bodies can make, clearly, that are not just simply on funding, but a lot of this does come with funding implications. And at a time when local authorities and the public sector generally are really squeezed because of inflation and all the pressures we face, it is a challenge. For example, I know local authorities—including my own, but other local authorities I speak to—would like it to go faster than it currently is, but that comes with financial implications to them, and it is a juggling act at present. 

And you feel that you are able, as the WLGA, to support those local authorities to deliver the aims and ambitions and the milestones contained in the route-map.

From the WLGA point of view, I think the strong relationship that has built up—and we've said this in various previous committees of the Senedd—through COVID has driven local authorities to work closer together than ever before. I think any ministerial hopes about collaboration with local authorities, as much as we all try to do it and we've said we would do it, it has actually been the pandemic that has really driven the change in the last couple of years. I think there is much better integration now, much better sharing of information and collaboration between local authorities. In some cases, their own local partnerships are developing on certain strategic areas. It makes sense financially, but it makes sense also on a delivery front. So, I do think that we are going in the right direction.

And do you ever—? This is just thinking outside the box. I know it's limited to local authorities at the moment, but with things like our health boards, there's a clear direction, isn't there, with health and social care becoming more integrated. Do you ever work with health boards at all in these strategic aims?

I would say 'yes and no'. I would say that there are two good examples: one is Swansea, I believe, and one in my own local authority that we're taking forward, where we're looking at solar farms and, rather than exporting all the energy to the grid, we'll have some use of it, but actually we are then going to be selling the energy to the local hospitals. Swansea is up and running, I believe, and ours in RCT is due to commence later this year. These are big investments. Potentially, my own solar farm is around a £7 million to £8 million capital investment, but that could bear really good savings, both for us as a local authority but also for the health board. In particular, the carbon reduction for the health board is substantial. So, there are good examples of things like that, but there are other areas where, if I was to be honest, I think that health boards and other public services could learn from local government. We've had to be more efficient on our energy use because of the pressures on our budgets and austerity over the years—changing things like LED lights. I have 27,000 street lights that are all LED; I'm sure if you asked every health board, they haven't changed all their lights, even. 

Well, we can ask them in a minute, because there are representatives appearing before us. Before I bring Jenny in, Mary Ann, did you want to pick up on anything that was asked there?

I think, as we move forward—. A lot of the work that the WLGA has been doing is training, attempting to upskill, sharing information. We have to move on, and I think that has been recognised, with chief executives taking more active roles and really moving from research into delivery. That's really important. But I think it's targeting now, and it's targeting resources with the upskilling that's needed to maximise those resources. So, rather than seeing them as separate, recognising that they have to be targeted and intertwined if we're going to meet those really challenging targets that we want to meet. That's one. 

I think another thing for me is that the route-map is challenging. As a rural area, we have particular challenges. It's very easy, for example, for Newport—I'll take Newport, because it's a neighbour and I know it—to decarbonise their fleet for waste management. In Monmouthshire, we have to think where are the chargers, what is the running time, how many vehicles do we need in the fleet. We're not alone as a rural area. It's something that we're working on through the Cardiff capital region, so we're looking at innovations that would enable us to do that in real time, but it is a challenge, and the kind of upskilling you need around that is very different for rural areas. There are some crossovers, but there are some unique parts. That's what I mean, really, when you think about the targeted skills with the targeted resources that you need to deliver.

I'd also say, in terms of procurement, local authorities and the WLGA are limited on the extent to which they can upskill their suppliers, and yet it's the suppliers we really need to work on. There, I think, there's a role for us working with other public sector bodies but particularly with the Welsh Government, and potentially the UK Government, because some of our suppliers cross borders. Thank you.

We'll certainly come back to the skills agenda, and no doubt the resourcing as well. Jenny, you wanted to come in, and then we'll move on.

Just looking at the route-map and the things that were recommended to be done between 2020 and 2022, you make a very important point about suppliers and how you influence them. I wanted to try and better understand what work has been done to try and safeguard our swimming pools amidst the horrendous spike in energy costs, and how you influence a lot of the outsourced leisure services to adopt new technology, which is obviously spoken about in the innovation columns of the route-map. I wondered if there's anything you can say on how we adopt some of the new technologies that other swimming pools in England are adopting.

I think we all got very excited by the report in the media yesterday about the data banks in Exmouth. That's certainly something I would hope my authority could look at.

We don't outsource our leisure services. We've kept our pools open, and actually the first thing we did is a very old technology. We brought in covers for the swimming pools, which reduced energy use by, I think—don't quote me—at least 10 per cent, which hadn't been used by the previous administration. Sometimes, when you look at efficiency within our public services and particularly in leisure centres, it's going back to basics. Yes, of course we've gone on to LED lighting and suchlike, and we are looking at different ways in which our leisure centres are going to be heated. In Abergavenny, for example, one part of the county, we're building a twenty-first century school, which will be zero carbon, and the leisure centre is part of that complex. That is true for all our leisure centres.

That's good, but we've got the ones that exist already, and particularly in the most deprived areas the press are saying they're all going to close. That would obviously be a disaster. So, it's really how we can adopt the sustainable technologies quickly enough to prevent that.

I think Andrew wants to come in.

It's a really good point. For Rhondda Cynon Taf, for example, if I use my own local authority, we have 11 leisure centres and pools across the county. Over recent years, we've introduced things like combined heat and power units, so we generate our own energy, electric and heating through gas. Our prices have massively increased, but that is a very sustainable way in terms of the overall package of cost for the energy we use. That has driven down some of our costs initially, but of course costs have ramped up now over the last 12 months.

We have put solar panels on leisure centres where we can, but it isn't as straightforward as perhaps people sometimes think. They say, 'Well, why don't you cover the whole roof of a leisure centre with solar panels?' But they have to go on stands, because they can't lie flat, and that adds considerable weight, and sometimes, for a whole building, it's structurally not possible to do such things. But we've looked at things like films on water, similar to what Mary Ann has said. We either use pool covers to retain heat, or, like in the National Lido of Wales outdoor pools, we actually use a film. It's like a liquid you pour into the water, which is very safe to use. It's a well-used method, and it leaves a fine film on the water at night, which is clearly safe for swimmers, so there's no concern with that. But it stops water evaporation. Because the big energy cost is actually evaporation—not just of heat, but warm water evaporation.

We've looked at ways across our leisure centres of generating our own chlorine. This comes back to the war in Ukraine, because one of the products that's needed to make chlorine, something like 80 per cent of it in Europe comes from Ukraine. There was a real shortage and real concern. Technology that was available is now being rolled out much more widely in the UK, and certainly in Wales, where we can generate our own chlorine from using water and salts, et cetera. So, we've done lots of measures there that do actually cover the carbon footprint reduction, but it is difficult to make leisure centres sustainable when the running costs, for example, of mine, some of the larger ones with pools, have gone from around £200,000 for gas and electric to £500,000—per year, that is. 

Thank you. An interesting example, actually, of the practical issues that authorities are grappling with. Thank you for that. Huw. 

Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Just a real practical question here. The climate strategy panel, can you give us some more information on how often it meets, what sort of engagement the Welsh Government has with it? But can I also ask you what engagement it has with regional players like the public services boards and others? Because many of the things you're touching on cannot be done on a local authority-alone footprint. So, how does it key into that as well? 

I haven't got all that detail available in terms of the frequency of the meetings. We do get reports back and updates from both the officer working groups and the political working groups to the membership of the WLGA at our council meetings, and at our executive boards, which contain all 22 leaders. 

In terms of the engagement with PSBs, again, I'm not clear on that, I have to say. It's something that probably needs further clarification, and I'm happy to ask officers to come back to you on that. That is an important point around the PSB and having updates, but just to be clear that the partners who sit around the table at PSBs are absolutely engaged in some of the work that we are doing. So, it may well be that this isn't always reported formally at a PSB, but that doesn't mean those relationships and the work with the other partner agencies is not ongoing. 

That's good. Maybe if I can do just a couple of follow-ups away from the climate strategy panel itself. We're aware from the audit office that the health boards, for example, have a slightly shallower hill to climb—a 34 per cent reduction by 2030. Of course, that loads on to other partners in the public realm, then, to do more to make up that shortfall. I guess what I'm asking you is not how do you deal with that, but how do you liaise with health boards and others, when you're looking at innovations and things like fleet, new technologies, renewable energy generation or whatever. To what extent do you liaise with them, and what's your reflections on them having a shallower hill to climb, because it makes yours all the steeper, doesn't it?

I can understand that, for some areas, it is more challenging for different public sectors, and that's why the 2030 target is across all of the public sector. For example, if you look at Natural Resources Wales, NRW actually may be carbon-negative by 2030, which will obviously help offset other areas of the public sector. But it is a challenge, and we want the health boards to do absolutely as much as possible. And that does mean, on areas such as their fleet, where they have a lot of small vehicles, cars, vans, et cetera—. We have transitioned all to electric in my local authority. I know that health boards are looking at steps they can take, but as local authorities we've all said quite clearly that we are happy to work with health boards and share infrastructure. We are installing lots of charging points, and, as I say, there is work that we're doing now, potentially, with my local health board area about a solar farm and having that shared use of a cable, so that we both benefit from the carbon reduction, but also the energy savings in terms of the cash savings. More of that probably will be needed over the next few years, because, no doubt, hospitals are really high, intense energy users. 

Sorry, Chair, but I want to try to push just a little bit deeper. Where do you do that sort of collaboration? Is it just on bilateral engagement, spotting an opportunity with Cwm Taf health authority, or other ones across Wales with different local authorities, or is it at the PSBs? Where's the forum in which you explore these opportunities, recognising the scale of the urgency we've got to deliver this? Is it bilateral, just opportunistic, or is it more structured?

I can't speak for all of Wales on this one, I have to say, but in the majority of cases I can give examples of, it is more on that localised basis. So, if I was to say, for example, for Cwm Taf Morgannwg, yesterday, myself, the other two council leaders for Merthyr and Bridgend, with our chief executives, met with the chair of the health board. Again, this was a kind of fortnightly meeting that was structured out of the pandemic, but it helps us to talk about other things now, around not just waiting times, but actually those other big key measures and priorities emerging, and that does include climate. So, there are really good relationships locally and where we take things forward, but I think we need to be clear that, while we do need to follow an all-Wales plan, what works in some areas will not work perhaps in all areas, and those local relationships are key. But that's why it's fundamental that the various public sector bodies do have those relationships, so we're not doing it in insolation.

Thank you very much for that answer. I can see you coming in as well, but maybe I can throw this in and you'll both want to respond. Away from the health boards per se, and wider reach across the public realm, you mentioned hydrogen earlier on and, of course, there are some exciting potential projects. So, you have, for example, proposals around a Swansea hydrogen bus fleet. In Bridgend, you have a proposal around the production of green hydrogen. The question is, I guess, to what extent this is being joined up across local authority partners and the public realm generally. Because some of these proposals require sufficient demand to make them viable as energy generation, others are a fleet at a distance from where they're being generated. Sorry, I can see you wanting to come in. My apologies, go ahead.

I'd just like to reinforce what Andrew was saying, but also say there are different layers of local, regional and national networks, which all need to operate as that kind of mechanical way of working, so that they interlink with each other. And I think sometimes they miss, but at the local level I don't think they miss so much. So, in Gwent, where I am, we do have a PSB that is finding its feet—there's a new mechanism—but decarbonisation is part of our agenda. It meets regularly. We also have bilaterals. We also have the Cardiff city region, and it's interesting that—[Inaudible.]—one of which we know about within the Cardiff city region, and it is very much part of a partnership, very much of an understanding of how it will work, benefit, and also talk to the challenges that will emerge as we go forward. And I'm sure that's what's happening in Swansea. It's how, I think, you get much of the good practice, which is not just technology based, but also about how people operate together in order to get the modal shift that we want. That's more difficult to share if we don't have mechanisms that actually link up resources with, as I came back to before, targeted resources, upskilling, and a way of transferring the 'how' to the local context.

Okay—

If we just focus on the technology change without the behaviour and social-norm change that we need, we’re not going to reach these ambitious targets, and they need a different way of local partnership.

Yes, okay. That's very true, and it's so multilayered, I suppose; that's a big part of the challenge, isn't it? Joyce.

Good morning, both. I'm going to ask you a very straightforward question: what are the key challenges for your organisations in meeting the 2030 net-zero ambition? If you were going to list the top two, what would they be?

I know perhaps Members may think this just local authorities always on about funding, but a large part of this is funding. So, for example, I would love to be able to change my fleet tomorrow,  and transition all the small and medium-sized vehicles over to electric. We're making good progress; I have about 50 electric vehicles, but, actually, I have a fleet of almost 500 in total. We have trialled electric refuse vehicles. Unfortunately, because of the hills in the Valleys, they run flat, and one had to be towed out of a dead-end street. So, that's why we're saying that our large vehicles we can't transition to electric, but we think hydrogen is an option. However, apart from the cost of making sure that hydrogen is available, if we were to do this—I think the last speaker said—you need to have the number of asks, really, from—. We've talked about public bus services; we want bus services, potentially, to move over to hydrogen, but that comes at a significant cost of capital at a time when the bus industry, as we all know, is in real peril right now. But, actually, if we were to get public buses, large public vehicles, whether it's in health, whether it's in local authorities, and if we had a programme that said, 'Where electric doesn't work, we have a nucleus of vehicles in a geographic area and, therefore, the development of green hydrogen is worthwhile doing', and that's the kind of emphasis we need.

The other thing that is a slight issue—and this is why it does come down, potentially, to cost—is that all local authorities have fleet renewal programmes. Depending on what the vehicles are, they'll either be five years or seven years, depending on how heavily they're used. And that means that the vehicles in various local authorities will be getting changed at different times, and it's really difficult that if a local authority—. For example, Mary Ann may have just renewed some of her fleet last year; well, we wouldn't want to buy new fleet next year to transition to hydrogen. So, it is about, 'How do we plan this over the medium term?' That's why I think it's also important to look at what local authorities are doing and don't always compare. In the Valleys, for example, I can build solar farms, whereas perhaps in Cardiff that's more challenging, but in Cardiff, they may see that, actually, renewing all their fleet and going to hydrogen a few years earlier than RCT would be the right option for them. But I think, looking across the whole of local authorities and the public sector, we're doing well, but, actually, we've got to go a lot faster in the next couple of years if we're to hit that 2030 target, and a lot of that is going to come down to funding.

Okay. Joyce.

I'd agree with Andrew, so I'm going to focus on the other area that I think is a big issue for us to meet our targets, and that's data. We don't have the granularity of data that is needed in order to make the agile shifts we need to make in order to get the wins that we want and to push forward.

I'm going to focus particularly on procurement, because as you can tell it's a particular concern of mine. We work with Cardiff and Torfaen, and the Vale of Glamorgan is going to come in with us, and this is great because we've got economies of scale that could really influence. Cardiff has just developed a new software that allows us to scrutinise the data at a more granular level, so that we can target resources where we want to do decarbonisation. But, what it comes back to is how we don't have sufficient influence on our own, even if you have that big area, to work down—[Inaudible.]—supply chains. So, when we can get, with yourselves and others in partnership, to really start to influence behaviour change along those supply chains, and the data will help us, it will drive change.

Thank you. I want to ask now whether all local authorities are on track to both develop and then publish plans by March 2023 to achieve that collective that we're talking about of a net-zero public sector by 2030. So, you've talked about some being on target—are all on target? And if they're not all on target, what is stopping them producing that plan?

Andrew, first of all.

I think I'm right in saying that while good progress is being made by all 22 local authorities, in terms of having a plan that is deliverable to hit 2030, then some local authorities are struggling with that. I've already said that my local authority will probably be one of them. While we've made significant progress and we've identified significant changes to make in the next few years, we're not on track, we do not believe, to hit 2030. That doesn't mean we won't hit 2030; what it does mean is that we need to use what time we have left available to us now, the next year, 18 months, to really focus on those other areas. And it has been about prioritising. So, while we've done, for example, a big review on the back of COVID, again, about office accommodation and where we can do either hybrid working, where, for some departments, it makes sense for staff to work at home and we get the benefit of not just the office reduction on the carbon side, but also the individual not travelling to and from work, potentially in their car, et cetera. So, while a lot of that has had to be done, there are other areas that sometimes take time. So, for example, our hydro schemes in RCT, which I mentioned earlier, if they come forward, they will have a substantial impact. But we can't count on them yet, because they haven't gone through the process, they haven't had planning permission, they haven't had their full feasibility studies yet. So, it doesn't mean that we won't be hitting 2030, but if we're going to be honest about the plans, we need to say, 'This is where we are, this is where I think we currently will get to', and also identify those areas we need to do more on.

Okay. Mary.

Again, I agree, it's not an even picture across local authorities. I'd come back to the data point: we need far better data. And new methodologies are emerging and being worked on in my authority, and across authorities, so we can track those changes better and understand where we need to fill the gaps. My local authority—

Okay. I'm just mindful that we are running out of time a little bit, so do you want to come back on anything else?

Only skills. Have you got the skills, both internally and more widely, because it was flagged up by the auditor general earlier on?

Mary Ann on this, then.

In a word, 'no', and that's partly for recruitment and retention. Other sectors can offer better conditions and salaries than local authorities can. It comes back, I think, to the need to pool resources, and this is an area where WLGA does help, and it's identifying where the skill sets are across local authorities, across public sectors, where the gaps are in different local authorities and where we can work more effectively, because some of us will have some skills and some of us won't. And I'm certainly seeing that happening in my authority when we are working around procurement, for example, where we're building that skill set, but we recognise that it's going to take time.

Okay. Very briefly, Delyth, and then I'll come to Andrew as well.

Forgive me, I think Joyce may have come in with the same point, but I just wanted to check, Mary Ann, that—. I appreciate what you're saying about pooling resources, but do you feel confident that, when resources are pooled, the necessary skills are there, or is there extra help that would be required?

I think extra help is required, and partly because this is such a dynamic, moving environment that we're not always entirely clear what skills we need going forward in order to meet challenging targets. And it changes by the year, as you know. But, secondly, given the ambition and given that, like every authority, we're very lean now, we need that support. But we need it to be consistent, we need it so that it brings benefits to us, but also so that there's a ripple effect across other public sectors, both within my area, but also the region and nationally.

Okay. Very, very briefly, Andrew, and then I'll come on to Janet, then.

I agree with Mary. If it was a straight answer, we'd say, 'no', we don't have all the skill sets, probably, for this, but that's partly why the Welsh Government is now funding us, through the WLGA, with £300,000 for the support programme, to use and to share that skill set. But also, we need to just recognise, and also push this point back to the Wales Audit Office, that we won't necessarily need all the skills; it is also about how we, in certain areas, use the private sector, where it is right and proper. So, for example, we haven't got experience, as individual local authorities, of putting in electric vehicle charging points, but across the Cardiff capital region, we've secured UK Government funding and Welsh Government funding, and we've procured that, and they are helping to advise local authorities on the right way forward in terms of a mix of what I would call slow and superfast chargers at suitable car parks and public areas, et cetera. So, while we do have some certain knowledge, clearly, it is important as well, in those areas that are more specialised, that it's about making sure that, when we procure, we can procure on the region, whether it's a sub-region, or on an all-Wales basis, and that does help local authorities share the information.

Okay. Thank you. We have about 20 minutes left, and I know that there are a number of areas that we still need to cover. So, I'll come to Janet, and just ask, maybe, be brief and to the point, if we can, obviously without omitting any important points that you wish to make. Janet.

Costs—have you made any analysis of the costs of achieving net zero by 2030? And have you also raised with the Welsh Government how those costs might be met?

We certainly do raise with the Welsh Government in terms of costs that we're identifying. Now, there is £20 million available for the coming year in terms of that board dimension, which was the former ministerial waste board. But part of the issue here, I suppose, in terms of identifying the full cost of getting to 2030, for many local authorities that isn't possible at present, because some of us haven't got a full understanding, or the full detail of the plan, to get to net zero by 2030, and we're still identifying those areas, and some of that won't come until later on, in terms of identifying costs.

But, for example, we've recently looked, in my own local authority, about moving to used oil—chip shop oil, et cetera—and we've done trials, which were funded by Welsh Government. And actually, what we did find, overall, based on emissions against cost, in some cases—because of, again, the types of vehicles that trialled it and the topography—was a reduction in emissions; in other areas, we saw an increase in emissions, actually. But actually, the unit cost came out at something like 30p a gallon more to run recycled oil than it did for diesel, even with today's diesel prices. So, it goes to show that, in some areas, for some vehicles, it does work, but not all.

And that's why, I think, until we get a fuller understanding—. We are on a learning journey. So, that's why, I think, that we are picking off, and local authorities are doing an awful lot now. Let's not get away from the fact that we are prioritising resources—we're doing an awful lot, so far, but we are probably doing a lot of the easy- and medium-hanging fruit; it's the harder hanging fruit that I think we will need a couple more years to really firm up our plans, to look at what is the best way. Because what we don't want to do is to jump in with both feet, maybe with a new technology, for example, which actually, in a few years' time, we think, 'But that's not the way to go with it'. So, we are trying to get a full understanding of the cost, and we are measuring the cost benefit. But, if we can redirect our funding, because if, for example, it makes only a marginal improvement, yet the same amount of funding spent somewhere else in a couple of years' time can make a bigger impact, well, clearly, we need to shift the funding. And that is part of the work that's ongoing, and leaders regularly discuss this as part of our WLGA meetings. But the £300,000 from Welsh Government now as a support programme, that's what it really needs to help accelerate it.

Okay. Thank you. And I suppose the nature of the challenge means there's always more that could be done, isn't there, really? Okay. Jenny.

Thank you very much indeed. I just wanted to ask you about the—. You've set up a framework of five consultants, who are commissioned to carry out works to fill the gaps that you've identified in your four strategic areas. Could you just give us a little bit more information about who these consultants are, and what's the timescale for them reporting back, because, clearly, this is important work, to be shared across all councils?

Again, on the exact detail, I'm happy for officers to come back to provide it to you, but this is what's come out of the officer working group within local authorities, working with the WLGA, to identify some of the skill gaps and some of the areas that our officers have flagged up. And there's obviously been an exercise then to identify who is best to provide that support to local authorities as part of this programme. But on the granular detail of that and how we particularly picked those consultants, and also what particular areas, I'm happy to ask WLGA officers to come back to the committee on that.

Okay. I just want to go back to sustainable procurement, and, obviously, one of the things that all local authorities are grappling with is how we feed our school pupils, particularly the free school meals programme. I appreciate Mary Ann said something earlier about the complexity of this, and the supply base, and the data, but, at the end of the day, you've been given some quite clear targets on how you're expanding that programme. So, how are you going to not enter into contracts that you then regret later on? 

If I say—

Let Mary Ann come in— 

Mary Ann to start, and then I'll come back to you, Andrew. 

Yes, we'll come back to Andrew then. 

We were one of the authorities that could immediately go to all children under seven getting free school meals from last September, and that was because we already had kitchens in every primary school bar one, and our supply chains are within Wales, and some of our supply chain is extremely local within Monmouthshire. What we're looking at at the moment, in talking to Castell Howell, for example, is whether or not we can link them to particular growers within Monmouthshire around specific vegetable needs that we have. We have four main—peppers, potatoes, carrots and tomatoes, I think—that can be completely procured within Monmouthshire. So, at primary school level, we're fairly confident we can roll it out with local supply chains to age 11.

What we would like to do is to look at how secondary schools in our region—. And we'd like to look in conjunction, and we've already started talking to other local authorities about how we can do this together, because secondary schools procure separately, but they're also procuring and bringing in meals that do cut across borders. Carbon emissions are high through those supply chains. But I'm actually quite proud of what we're doing in Monmouthshire around localising our food supply chains, and particularly through public procurement, not just in schools but also in social care. 

Thank you. So, Andrew, Monmouthshire is definitely leading the way on this. How do we spread that good practice across all 22 local authorities? 

I think, generally, there is really good practice. So, for example, the Bevan Foundation recently did some work on RCT, looking at our supply chains as part of a piece of work that was commissioned. And the term that they used in the report was that we out-Prestoned Preston. Everybody talks about Preston as a good example on local procurement and the spend both within county and then within the sub-region, but, actually, the Bevan Foundation referred to RCT as out-Prestoning Preston. I think there's a lot of good work that goes on within local authorities. It is about, sometimes, competing demands. I spoke earlier about the financial challenges, and, of course, part of the procurement is about getting the best value as well. But, at the same time, more and more now, we have to also look at what the impact is when you are procuring—if you procure locally, it's not just good for the local economy, but it is that built-in carbon footprint of transporting goods over long distances. 

So, there is good work going on with that and it is being shared. There are, for example, officer working groups around procurement across all 22 local authorities. So, cabinet members with responsibility for procurement with officers do meet on, I think, a bi-monthly basis. There is a lot of work going on, but I think a lot of it probably is below the surface, and perhaps it doesn't really get the profile, and perhaps Members are not always aware of what is going on. Perhaps we do need to raise and share that practice a little bit more.  

Okay, thank you. Thank you for that. That's really interesting. Could I just move us on to whether local authorities are on track to meet key commitments around developing a strategic plan for decarbonising buildings? Amidst the eye-watering energy prices, that clearly is super important. Could you just say a little bit about that before I get hauled back by the Chair? It seems to be key that we ensure that, when we are investing in anything, such as putting a new roof on, we're not just shoving tiles on it? 

And there's a key commitment to come up with a strategic plan, isn't there? 

Yes. 

So, where are we at?

On that area, I'm not aware of any local authorities that are not on course with their plans, but it is probably one of the more easy areas because, financially, it makes sense. So, in terms of decarbonising buildings, whether with better heating systems, fitting LED lighting in offices, which reduces the amount of energy used, putting in solar panels, combined heat-power units, et cetera, those sorts of things, as part of an energy saving plan, also generate significant revenue savings for local authorities, So, I would say, on our office accommodation, I genuinely feel that's probably one of the areas where we're making the best progress. I've already referenced in our local authority an over 40 per cent reduction, but in the next couple of years, with what we're now doing and plan to come forward with in the next year, we probably will get somewhere between a 50 and 60 per cent reduction in RCT, in reducing the number of buildings, using our office accommodation better, using more hot desking, allowing technology for staff to have more hand-held so they don't have to come back to offices and so they can actually pick up their work or their jobs out on the go. All of this saves energy on buildings, because we won't need so many, but it also saves on staff time, and in particular, as well, on the vehicle usage, so they're not driving back and forth to offices to use downloads and use PCs; they can do more on the go, and that is something that staff are helping us to drive as well. 

Okay, there we are. I'm afraid we have to move on, if that's okay. Thank you very much. Right, okay. Huw. 

That's fine.

Very quickly, then, if I can turn to reporting emissions, could I ask what's your assessment of the usability of the Welsh public sector net-zero carbon reporting guide as it stands? And on the basis that it went through a bit of a rejig last year—it went to the mark 2 version of the reporting guide—do you think there are any more changes, any more improvements, that need to be made? I don't know, Andrew, or Mary, do you want to do that?

That's quite a focused question, and, again, on that one I'd have to come back to you with a specific answer. I have to say it isn't something that has been flagged to leaders as a particular issue in our meetings and our briefings, so I'm not aware of any particular concerns that are of high importance at present. But, again, I would have to ask the officer technical working group to come back on whether or not there's anything that they're discussing with the Welsh Government and the WLGA.

That's fine. Yes, we can follow up on that. That's okay. Fine. Janet. 

Given the declaration of a climate emergency, and time has moved on since then, do you agree with the public sector emissions reporting being voluntary rather than mandatory?

Andrew's smiling. 

Realistically, I'd imagine, in time, it probably needs to be mandatory. I can only speak as giving a personal opinion here, as a council leader rather than on behalf of the 22 local authorities. It isn't something we've discussed, but I would imagine, in time, to make sure that everybody's feet are held to the fire, making sure that those figures are released and are accurate, I think, is probably something that we should consider in time, about having mandatory reporting. But, again, I don't see a problem for local authorities on our side at present, but across the whole public sector, in time, that might be something we need to consider. 

And do you concur, Mary Ann?

I think it does need to be mandatory. I think it needs to be mandatory and it needs to be transparent.

There we are. Okay.

Thank you. 

A clear message. Thank you very much. Delyth. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. I wanted to ask about the support that local authorities have received through the Welsh Government energy service. I'm well aware that it's in the process of being reprocured, but could you tell us anything about that, and about the support that's being received and whether you'd like to see things be done differently in the future after that reprocurement?

Again, it's one of those areas where we haven't had concerns, I don't think—not strong concerns—expressed to us as leaders and through the working groups. Whether or not there is further discussion with the officer group that meets, and are in discussion with Welsh Government—because the Welsh Government officials sit on that group with officers when they meet—again, we'd have to feed back to you if there's anything specific that officers are raising. But we're not—

That's fine. 

But it certainly isn't something that we are being pressed, as our officers, to be raising with Ministers—that isn't one of the areas that we're getting flagged to us. 

That's helpful, thank you. 

Okay. Well, we've come to the end a bit sooner than I had anticipated, to be honest. I don't know if any Members have anything else to raise? Yes, Huw.

Just one small one for Andrew, from his perspective. When the audit body was in front of us earlier on, they were talking about their support for well-managed risks in driving towards decarbonisation and zero carbon. How do you as a local authority or as local authority colleagues manage that? Because we've heard in this evidence session now about the urgency of this, so the temptation is to run really fast towards it, but, in so doing, there are risks with adoption of new technologies, new ways of working, and then trying to unravel them as the next new great thing comes along. How do you, as a local authority leader, deal with that individually? And how does the local authority, as a corporate entity in Wales, deal with that—that balancing of risks with the urgency we face? 

Can I say it is a challenge? And that's why, I think, local authorities on this shouldn't really be judged. As time goes on, some local authorities may get some of this wrong initially, but it is about also understanding why some authorities will prioritise some areas over others. So, can I give one other example? We've identified in RCT that we have substantial areas that are peat bog. Peat bogs are great for soaking up carbon. However, if they are not well managed, and some of the ones in Rhondda Cynon Taf have not been managed for a long time—. At present, there is a concern that we've expressed that we think those peat bogs are currently actually emitting carbon. So, therefore, part of our plan is to actually invest substantially—and we will be discussing it with Welsh Government—so it could not only support and help manage water flows, in terms of the climate change problems we face with flooding, but also it can have a substantial carbon reduction. So that, potentially, is one of the areas in the next couple of years we will really focus on. Whereas, as I mentioned, it may well be that, rather than jumping in with both feet on heavy goods vehicles transition to, say, electric, or transition to hydrogen, that might be one that we will sit back on slightly, wait to see what other local partners and other local authorities consider doing for their own needs, and maybe we will then partner with them. So, it is about understanding that each local authority and their plans—they won't always look similar, because we have different opportunities. 

Sure. Okay. Jenny. Thank you, yes. 

I just wanted to go back to invest-to-save as a strategy. It's very easy, amidst the cost-of-living crisis, to propose Elastoplast situations over a crisis, but how effectively do you think your local authority is working with local government to look at sustainable solutions in the way you are delivering either capital or revenue projects? 

Can I just comment very briefly on this to say that we're not just focusing on what local authorities do to ourselves? It's about working with the public as well. So, things like the Arbed scheme are really important, where people have boilers that are more than 15 years old that are really inefficient in terms of energy usage—replacing them, looking at loft insulation, looking at double glazed units. In my own local authority, we've introduced a grant of £1,000 to any household who wants to put solar panels on their roof. There are lots of things like that that we can do, which will, on the one hand, help with the cost-of-living crisis, but, at the same time, will lead to long-term benefits in terms of energy reduction, because, clearly, as much as the public sector needs to be leading on this, it's not just leading ourselves; we've actually got to make sure we bring the public with us, because, if we're to make the big changes in our carbon footprint, it's about how we get the public to come onside. Whether it's their own homes, whether it's their vehicles, public transport, there are lots of areas we need to consider. 

Okay. Clearly, on that, the role of the private sector is really important in getting the 40 per cent of people who own their homes outright, whether as landlords or occupiers—. There doesn't seem to enough awareness amongst the public, despite the cost-of-living crisis, of the things they ought to be doing in their own interests, and is that a way which could accelerate the technology that all of us need? 

Let's give the last word to Mary Ann, then, on this. 

You touch on the whole point of modal shift that we're looking for. I think one of the issues that we're looking at around retrofit as a big factor in energy efficiency is how do we reach those homes that aren't covered by grants, because they're not receiving benefits, but they're not in a position to know or to access new technologies that could help them, or insulation et cetera. Part of that, we think, is looking at the local supply chains and making people aware that there are local suppliers, rather than depending on large-scale regional or national suppliers. Secondly, it is about different ways of getting information out, which cannot only be through local authorities. We're just one voice, and I think we work effectively with the Welsh Government in getting that message out, and together we need to up the way that we do it and be more targeted in our communications. Certainly, in my authority, we have got a whole group of people who are very happy to shift. They're not rich, but neither are they particularly poor. It's that middle bit. They could have the information, linked to local suppliers, know what the benefits are, what the paybacks will be. I think we can move it more quickly. I don't think I have enough time to come on to transport—

Loan schemes, then.

We don't have time, no.

—but the shift from cars is actually around what we can do to have an integrated transport strategy—

That's for another day. But loan schemes for housing, surely.

And these are issues that we as a committee, of course, have been deliberating and we'll continue to do so.

Can I thank both Mary Ann and Andrew for joining us this morning and reminding us it is a wider societal challenge that we are facing, but, clearly, organisations and bodies have different roles to play and contributions to make, and for sharing with us not just the challenges but the positive work that is happening and that we very much acknowledge in a very challenging climate and context, as well? So, thank you both for joining us. The committee will now break for 10 minutes and we will restart at 11:40. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes. Perhaps I'll take that one, to start. I suppose the first thing I think it's worth stating is that we work very closely with the Welsh Government and we've found them very, very supportive in terms of this programme of work. Obviously, the Welsh Government issue many policies—and I've been involved with the NHS for many years—and probably this is one where—. There's been more support on this one than I'd say virtually any other policy. The Welsh Government has obviously set up its own team to deal with this as well, and I'm sure you know Lisa Wise and her team; they work very closely with us in shared services and have been very supportive, as I said.

In terms of the five calls to action, we've got the leadership and collaboration to start with, and we've worked very closely with the Welsh Government establishing a governance structure with strong leadership throughout that. We've also worked very hard—and are still working hard—on the reporting mechanisms around that, to ensure that we're clear about where we stand at a particular point in time, and trying to draw in some of the programme implications and the funding implications for some of these larger initiatives as well.

I think one very useful initiative that the Welsh Government actually led and supported us with is the establishment of a panel of experts—a community of experts, it's called—whereby all of the decarbonisation action plans that are developed by health boards, trusts and shared services are reviewed by the community of experts, which includes Welsh Government and representatives from all health boards and trusts in Wales as well to identify areas of good practice, areas where collaboration can take place, and that's been very helpful and I think it's drawn in a lot of the specialists around Wales that are keen to contribute to certain aspects of this work.

The implementation: they've certainly helped us with implementation, because, in the early days, we recognised we did have some resource issues, and they've helped us look at that and have been very supportive in terms of some funding to help us recruit to Jonathan's area in procurement, my specific area, which is around building and environment, as well as the programme management arrangements to manage this very large and complicated programme. Having said that, as you probably picked up from the paper that we put in, it's not been easy to recruit to these positions. There's a tremendous demand for these resources around Wales, and slowly but surely we've built up our team, but it's certainly taken far longer than we would have expected in the beginning.

As I said, the skills gap was identified quite early on, and procurement I think have done relatively well to bring a team together. We struggle a little bit on some of the building-related aspects that I deal with and also on the programme management aspects. I suppose the positive news there is that we're virtually complete in terms of that team. By the end of this month, I think we'll have a full team in place, which will help to co-ordinate the whole NHS programme, together with Lisa Wise's team.

Okay, we're going to drill down into some of these areas as we go along. 

Yes. That's why I don't want to go into too much detail.

So, just sticking with the bigger picture, then, really, I mean, a simple question, although maybe not easy to answer: is the 2030 target or ambition of net zero in the public sector feasible? Is it achievable, or should it be reviewed?

I think it's difficult to say at this stage—that's the reality of it. We obviously haven't got sight of the whole public sector's contributions to this and it is a net-zero target.

And your context is slightly different in that it's a 34 per cent target, isn't it?

Well, that's our contribution—that's right. That's what our plan is indicating. And we were an early adopter in terms of the plan. I think we were probably one of the first ones to do a plan across the public sector. And we engaged the Carbon Trust—who, also, were heavily involved in the Welsh Government's route-map—to benefit from that knowledge base, really. The Carbon Trust had undertaken a number of carbon baseline exercises for us over the years, so they had access to a lot of our data. So, we commissioned the Carbon Trust on the back of, 'What is the most ambitious target for the NHS?' and that was the result of the work that the Carbon Trust did, with us as active participants in that—we weren't just passive; we didn't passively receive this information, there was a lot of dialogue around that plan. But, yes, you're quite right: our plan is to achieve 34 per cent by 2030. For the broader public sector, it's difficult for me to judge whether they will achieve their goal.

Sure.

Yes. I'll maybe just add to that. In terms of, 'Is it achievable by 2030 in respect of the NHS?' I'm going to answer that by probably not giving an answer, but by just saying, there are contingencies here, which I'm sure we'll pick up on as we go through the session, but contingencies around, say, capital funding; contingencies around what we just mentioned there, which is increasing the level of expertise and capacity within the service to actually deliver at those levels, particularly in procurement where I work and in Neil's world and Tony's here and Craig's. So, is it achievable? Yes, but I would say, potentially, that those are the caveats around some of that.

Sure, okay. And before I come to Huw then, just finally from me, as a collective, the NHS is working towards this target, but what about your interaction with the wider public sector in this sphere then? Can you tell us a little bit about collaboration more widely and the way that you're contributing to that?

Yes. From my perspective, we are collaborating within Wales as part of a, and Neil mentioned it, community of practice. So, we are part of a wider community of practice across the public sector as far as procurement goes in particular. We're also working closely in procurement with Welsh Government energy services in terms of the reporting of carbon emissions, particularly from our supplier base. And a crucial point for ourselves, again, in procurement and talking from a procurement perspective, is our wider engagement with the other nations within the UK. Again, I'm sure we'll pick up on this, but we have very common requirements in terms of our suppliers and our supply base, so, it makes perfect sense for us to work in lockstep, where we can, with our colleagues in Scotland, Northern Ireland and England. So, we already have established four-nation working groups.

And where would you say we are in that context then? Are we ahead of the game or are we catching up?

Yes. Wales are ahead of the game as far as procurement goes and that is very, very clear to me. We share, and are asked continuously to share, a lot of information, which we're more than happy to do. So, looking towards, say, our colleagues in England, if they can really get moving on some of this with us, then, given their scale and size and comparisons for sales around the supply base, that's going to make a significant difference, but I'm encouraged to see how far forward, relatively speaking, we are in Wales on that side.

Good. That's good to hear. Okay, thank you. Huw.

Thank you, Chair. Can I just ask you for your assessment on how effective you think the public sector route-map is in providing that strategic direction for decarbonisation?

I think it's a very effective route-map. As I said, we undertook work slightly in front of that to do our plan, and if you look at both documents, they are very similar in the way that they're structured. Clearly, it has to be at a high level but with sufficient information there for public sector bodies to plan against it. I think the timelines are very good—the way it's set out in terms of the three different stages to the 2030 targets. It gives sufficient information for public bodies to go away, then, and develop their plans. 

Where it is more difficult in terms of going back to the last question on assessing, overall, achieving the targets, is that it didn't have specific splits there for the cost to the public sector, although I assume that some work had been undertaken to do a rough assessment of that to arrive at that route-map. So, that's why it's always difficult to answer the question, 'Will you hit the target as the public sector?' because you don't quite know what everyone's contribution is meant to be, and that's— 

Right. So, I take it as implicit within that answer that you'd like to see that greater clarity so that everybody knows what their share towards this should be, yes? I can see, Jonathan, you're nodding. 

Yes. It certainly would be helpful, but in terms of what we're trying to achieve in the NHS, we set out to achieve the best we could achieve. So, if it came back and they said, 'Well, we only had you down for 10 per cent', well, we'd still be trying to hit 34 per cent. If they said, 'We had you down for 66 per cent', we'd say, 'Well, we can't see how that is achievable, because we've gone through this whole exercise.' But it is useful, of course, as a citizen of Wales and a member of the public sector, to understand how likely it is that those targets will be hit, and it's a little bit difficult without those splits, obviously. 

That's great. Thanks.

Okay. There we are, thank you. Janet. There we are.

Thanks. Yes, I was just waiting for the mikes there. Do you believe that you're on track to meet the actions set out in the NHS Wales decarbonisation strategic delivery plan, and what are your views on how achievable the actions to 2030 are?

We had, or we have, an interim target for 2025 in our plan that equates to a reduction of 155,000 tonnes of carbon. At the last measurement, back in 2022, we had reduced it by 91,000 tonnes. So, at that sort of level, it gives us a fairly strong indication that we're well on the way to that interim target. What you'll have, and I'm sure it's the same for the rest of the public sector, is—. The carbon reduction initiatives at the front end of the plan are the low-hanging fruit, if you like, the easier ones to attain. So, it's probably the second half of the target that's the more challenging. And, really, to pick up something that Jonathan was just talking about, I think we are going to see very significant demands on capital and revenue funding to achieve that secondary push. And I'll just give you some examples from my own experience on the construction side of things, and buildings.

The NHS is under immense pressure as a service. We all see that every day. One of the largest decarbonisation issues for buildings is low heating systems. To do that, it's not just the boilers, you have to actually change the infrastructure within the hospitals. That is challenging in this environment, because you have to go in there and disrupt the hospital. So, the health boards are working on those sorts of plans, and it'll be interesting to see the sort of figures that emerge from that, really, and the timescales, because I think that sort of area is particularly challenging. It's challenging outside the stresses and strains we're under at the moment, let alone where we are as a service. So, I'm obviously not giving you a complete answer on that second part because I—.

I do feel sorry, really, because certainly, Ysbyty Gwynedd and Ysbyty Glan Clwyd—gosh, those buildings that have flat roofs and lots of ground space. In those days, they thought, perhaps, that was the building for the future, because it looked very futuristic, but practically and in reality, they're a nightmare, those buildings, and they've added on over the years. They're huge sites now, but all with flat roofs and not very well insulated. So, I don't envy the challenge of just dealing with our hospitals.

Absolutely, and when you look at the—. The big issues are in our acute estate, the big hospitals, and when you look at those, we started that building programme probably in the late 1950s, up until the 1990s, at a push, with the last one being the Royal Glamorgan. You've got an estate there that is fundamentally 50 or 60 years old. Obviously, there's been work on that estate, and repair and everything else, but it does present some challenges.

Okay, thank you. Huw.

Yes. You've just thrown up two interesting things. One is, you've said on a couple of occasions now that one of your contingencies, one of the two main contingencies, is capital spend going forward, and it's going to get more acute. That hill's getting more acute—the demand on capital. So, I'm intrigued as to whether that demand on capital is for reallocation of spending within health boards, or it's to Welsh Government, saying, 'Give us the money,' but anyway—. Do you want to comment?

Well, I don't know—. Tony, did you want to?

Yes, Tony.

Yes. There are a number of elements here. We can provide some forecasting around some of the capital investment we require, particularly around fleet vehicles and infrastructure, for example, because that's one of the key elements of achieving part of the goal. We've had some pressures, and I know we'll probably touch on it a little bit later, but with the worldwide market for fleet—everybody's seen the changes with not just cars but vans and changes in development through pressures through either COVID or what's occurred through the war in Ukraine, for example.

I think, from our perspective, we're very conscious that we're dealing with a lot of old estate, and even where we have new or relatively new estate, we have a position where it's possible that the DNO, the actual direct network service going in for the volume of power available to those sites, could be compromised if we're not careful. We've got a couple of recent sites that we moved into in the last five or six years, for example, and we may have to relocate from those locations, because we're already looking at maximising the available power to charge electric vehicles, for example. So, we may have to move the estate, physically, as part of that.

Sorry, I know this isn't where you wanted me to be going, Chair, but it's fascinating, because if you look at the roads review at the moment, one of the things the roads review has taken into account is actually the carbon costs of building new roads, bridges, et cetera, et cetera. When you look at this balance between refurbishing and remodelling for a zero-carbon existing estate, and building new estate, and the carbon costs of building new estate, do you take that into account? Does that run across your carbon balance sheet—that you make these decisions?

An element is provided, so obviously we actually look at the energy efficiency of buildings, et cetera, and at road mapping where it's most effectively placed or positioned for optimum use, for example. So, there are elements that we will factor into that. From a transport planning perspective—

Sorry, I didn't mean to drag you down the transport—but specifically on the carbon cost within new build, against—. It's always tempting, and sometimes quite understandable, to say that, in order to get to the next generation of zero-carbon buildings and the way the electricity works and so on and so forth, 'We've got to build that new build again,' and then the old one is left, or whatever. I guess what I'm getting at is: do you run the rule across that? Does every trust run the rule across whether it's better to refurb and it can be done in a better way, rather than sink all those new carbon costs of building a new building, like a new road, like a new bridge?

Through the business case process that the Welsh Government follows, you have this three-stage process of a strategic outline case, outline business case, full business case. At each stage of that, the carbon accounting would be factored into that. Obviously, the detail would increase as you moved through those stages, but I think you're talking about almost the strategic outline case. At the strategic level, you'd be looking at those sorts of issues at that stage, so it would be something that colleagues here in Welsh Government would look at when they assess it, and therefore colleagues putting the cases in would accommodate that and deal with it in terms of their business cases.

Okay. Sorry, Chair—I went off right down a rabbit hole there.

No, that's all right—it was very useful and interesting.

Could I ask you whether all health boards, trusts, and the NHS Wales Shared Services Partnership have all now published their decarbonisation action plans, as set out in the NHS strategic delivery plan, and if not, why not?

I believe they have. Yes. I believe they have, yes.

All the plans have been published.

That's great.

There we are. Those are the kinds of answers we like. Okay, thank you. Right. Janet, back to you.

Right. The NHS Wales climate change group decarbonisation board—is that now in place, and what work has it undertaken to date?

Yes, the board is in place. As you know, the NHS has a chief executive, which is Judith Paget, who's also the director general of health and social services. And this whole project is ultimately accountable to Judith. There's a national programme board that is set up with Welsh Government and senior NHS representatives. Our managing director, for example, Neil Frow, is on that board.

And, then, below that board, we have five project boards that deal with specific aspects of the plan. Building and land use would be one. And then, below that, you have the health boards and trusts and shared services, and some cross-cutting task teams as well, feeding information into those groups. And it's all sort of knitted together, if you like, by the programme management teams that Welsh Government and ourselves have established.

So, it's still developing. Certainly, in terms of the board, it receives analysis of the decarbonisation action plans and progress reports on a regular basis, and it's looking to identify the risks, and identify priorities out of that, which are fed back through to the decarbonisation programme team, and then filtered back through to the organisation. So, I think it's working pretty effectively as a senior leadership group providing strategic direction. And, yes, we are still developing—.

If I showed you the organisational structure, it is very complicated. There are lots of different moving parts to this, and we're working quite hard to try to get our programme management team to give the right information at the right levels, and to try to standardise it across the whole of the NHS, so we all have confidence that we know where we are, and we know what outputs we're seeking to deliver, particularly, obviously, the carbon benefits in this case. 

So, we're still working on that, but we have made a lot of progress. And that's one of the areas I mentioned earlier where we have struggled to recruit. And we've got two members of that team—it's a team of four—but, fortunately, we've managed to recruit another two project managers to come into that team, which will allow us, really, to get into more of the detail around that.

So, it's important to tie those whole structures together really, but, yes, it's met for some time now, and I think it's very clear about its role and the messages that it needs to give out to the rest of us to get on with things.

Okay. 

And is it well supported by Welsh Government, in terms of resources? And how well do you feel—? How often do you meet, and then what comes out? Things like, are the minutes published, so that people can keep track of how the board is operating?

I'm not a member of that board, but I receive briefing notes through the system of what the board decides. I don't know if—

Funding wise?

Pardon?

Resources.

So, the board hasn't got any funds to allocate, but it is our strategic board. So, the individual organisations developing the plans would apply for funds from, whether it's the Welsh Government, or whether it's other funds that are available to it. But one of the tasks will be to try to draw this together to get a real understanding of the capital and perhaps revenue funding associated with this as well, as the DAPs mature. And I think that's the key to this, really: it's the individual organisations' plans, and they are still in the process of maturing, I think.

And then which of the four priority areas—net-zero buildings, mobility and transport, sustainable procurement, and land use—which of those do you believe present the greatest challenge for the NHS in Wales?

Yes, well, Neil's looking at me. [Laughter.]

All of them. [Laughter.]

Yes, they're all challenging, but I would agree that procurement and transport are probably the most challenging to achieve, simply because of our dependency on the supply chains that feed our products and services that we buy. I could go into a bit of detail on that, if that's appropriate, or do you want to—

Send us a note, maybe.

Yes, we'll pick up on it in a minute—

Okay. 

—because we are going to drill down into it. 

And then my final point, Chair—

No, sorry, Janet, you've had your opportunity. I'm going to pass over to Joyce now.

I've got 8, 9, 10. 

No, you haven't, I'm afraid; it's Joyce. And we clarified that before the start of the meeting. 

Sorry.

Okay. I want to ask, first of all, whether—. We all know that there are challenges, and we know that you have got some progress in those challenges. You've outlined those. I just want to know whether they align with the Welsh Government's priority areas.

From a procurement perspective, the challenge to reduce the procurement carbon footprint for NHS Wales in itself is challenging. We are making progress on that and I can hopefully elaborate on that later. But in relation to the other programme for government initiatives, there are obvious tensions in some areas—not intended, but consequential tensions, and also complements. The complementary priority that we also are responsible for is trying to increase the level of expenditure within the local Welsh economy. That in itself complements the greening of our supply chain, reducing the length of the supply chain and where we can—and it is a 'where we can'—buy manufactured goods in Wales, then obviously there's quite a significant carbon reduction.

The tension from a procurement perspective can often lie with the financial efficiencies that we are required to deliver for NHS Wales organisations, particularly in the current financial climate, and that lends itself—not always, but quite often—to buying the best product that meets the requirement at the very best possible price, as you would expect, to protect the taxpayer's money. But that doesn't necessarily lend itself to the greenest outcome or the most sustainable outcome. So, there is a balance there, and we do take, at this point in time, targeted interventions in where we can make the difference. Without being negative, there are some very positive areas where we hit that sweet spot where we can almost address all of those issues in one procurement exercise: the local economy, decarbonisation, and also get a really competitive costing around it as well.

And the final point: where there's another complementary arrangement is in the procurement of new technologies. Bringing new technology into Wales, particularly into NHS Wales, can by itself reduce the carbon footprint, not just of NHS Wales, but wider society—you know, with treatments at home and things like that. The technology itself can often replace more carbon-intensive products and services that we currently provide.

Do you work closely with universities, particularly on innovation, going forward? Because Cardiff and also Swansea are well renowned for their innovation, particularly Cardiff, I think, in the health service. Have you worked with those, if we're talking about reducing carbon footprint?

Yes, we do work with both of those universities and the wider organisations, such as Life Sciences Hub Wales, Business Wales and so on, in terms of securing innovative technology that emerges within the market. Not specifically necessarily on sustainable projects at this point in time from a procurement perspective, but, as I said, the two are actually synchronised in a lot of ways. So, by working with the more adoptive technology procurements, we are, as I say, at the same time reducing the carbon footprint quite often, in terms of what we buy and in terms of how those services are delivered to our patients across Wales.

Okay. You did start to talk about the four priority areas. You did start. And you have identified them for us. The buildings was one area. And if we married the buildings up with procurement particularly, and of course our new procurement Bill has just gone through, how are you going to be able to add that value to the community that we ask for within that at the same time as marrying the expertise that's available, because that's another one of your areas, to do it? If we just were to focus on one area, that might be more useful in trying to galvanise all the areas that you've identified in those four priority areas.

Certainly, in terms of just taking the buildings as an example, as Jonathan explained in terms of procurement, similarly in terms of the development of buildings, we have some national frameworks that we deal with. We also have targets to ensure that we generate local jobs out of that work. We record all of the distances people travel to our sites to try to maintain as much of the Welsh spend within Wales. We go through quite a detailed process of trying to ensure that suppliers have a local base, as far as we can. Also, we have targets for apprenticeships to be generated out of the work that we do as well. And, of course, we work very closely with procurement because that's part of the building process. There is the main construction process, but then there's a huge amount of equipment within the building and that is often through our procurement colleagues. So, I don't know if that answers your question, but it is linked in in that way.

And is that sustainable procurement? Does that come into it? Because that's what, ultimately, we're talking about. You mentioned refitting existing buildings. So, let's say the sustainable procurement is how you're going to do that, but also how you're going to manage the waste effectively and the recycling of what you're taking out, because that would be, to me, sustainable procurement.

Again, I can't remember the percentages, but we have targets to reduce waste from all of our projects. Have you got any details on that, Craig? No. Sorry; I can't remember the exact figures. But it is integrated into the whole suite of key performance indicators that we have for delivering those projects. So, it is something that is recognised. As we move to zero-carbon buildings, which is where we're heading for our new developments, that will undoubtedly bring some more challenges with us, particularly around the supply base within Wales to supply some of those products. So, I think that will be an interesting exercise to see if the products going into those buildings, how much of a local base we can sort of link into there. So, it's certainly a challenging environment, but we are setting down targets for that within the construction procurement process, which does link in with Jonathan's local procurement process.

And can I just ask—

Yes, one more and then we'll move to Jenny.

Since you're obviously identifying strengths and weaknesses, and you've now got your decarbonisation board, do you feed in where the strengths and the weaknesses are, so that we can make a circular economy in terms of the skills shortages that you might identify, and also, going forward, where you might suggest to Government that we need to strengthen those areas, whatever it is that you need to do? So, you talked briefly about apprenticeships, but also manufacturing. I'm just trying to get a picture of—. This is supposed to be a whole-system programme, and you're on the ground, so you will gain intelligence.

Well, certainly, again, from the procurement perspective, so the transport and procurement project board that reports into the overall board, because we go through each of the initiatives, we do milestones, updates, risks and issues. So, that gives us the opportunity to actually feed that information back. I suppose, key for shared services is that we are a national shared service, and that brings with it the advantages of myself and my division working alongside Neil's and in collaboration with Neil's, and even within my division, working within our foundational economy teams beside our decarbonisation experts. It's a relatively small team, so I don't want to give you the wrong impression, but there are those synergies that are gained through one single shared services organisation, of which we're all obviously a part, which I think helps bring that overall picture into not just the NHS, but wider Welsh Government.

Okay. Thank you so much. We'll move on to Jenny then.

Thank you. Morriston Hospital was the first hospital in the UK to have photovoltaics to kick-start the energy in the hospital. It seems a very obvious thing to do, with minimum disruption to patients. So, it wouldn't be suitable in the Heath, because it's such a cluttered site, but Llandough, Glan Clwyd, why have we not seen others doing that? Is it capacity, money?

The Welsh Government energy service has undertaken a study of all of the major acute sites, for the capacity for renewable energy, last year, actually, so that is with the health boards now. Not all will be feasible because they don't have access to the right land close by or lots of different issues. So, that hasn't gone away; that's still an issue, and it's one that the health boards are looking at, armed with the feasibility work that the Welsh Government energy service provided. I don't know if you want to add any more to that, Craig.

Yes. So, they did the 10 sites that they've earmarked that were the best potential, and we are actually taking, through one of our funding schemes, through the estates funding advisory board—. Cwm Taf will be taking forward one of their recommendations off that as well. So, the recommendations are being worked on.

Okay. So, they haven't been published yet.

No.

Okay. Will they be published?

Well, there'd be no reason why they're not.

Yes. There's no reason that the reports—

Okay, because, obviously, health boards, and the public need to see what the—. But the Morriston one was installed in 2021, so there must've been quite a long lead-up period. How come all the other hospitals weren't saying, 'What a great idea', you know, where suitable?

I think there were particular circumstances behind the Morriston scheme. I think, initially, it was a speculative development the site was purchased for, I think through the private sector, and then, as circumstances changed, an opportunity arose for the health board, effectively. But you're absolutely right to identify that particular example, because it is an absolutely superb example of what should be happening, because it's a 4 MW project, I believe, and it's over 1,000 tonnes of carbon and £0.5 million of financial savings a year. And, with the increase in energy, of course, the benefits have been even greater, and they've run the hospital, on a number of summer days, completely off that.

And just if I may, Jenny, just to pick up as well, Councillor Andrew Morgan was telling us earlier about collaboration that might be happening between local government and the NHS as well in terms of achieving some of this; it isn't just your job. They may have the land, they may have a contribution to make, which would obviously benefit the NHS as well.

There are a number of sites where the council are looking at putting these solar farms in, where agreements will be possibly made with the NHS, to take a certain amount of power as well. That work is already ongoing as well.

That sounds ideal, doesn't it?

But also, there's potential for partnerships with private bodies that are currently generating a lot of heat, but it's only heating the birds. Clearly, Celsa Steel down the road is one of them, but there are lots of other examples that could be used. Is that the sort of thing that you're driving forward on? I'm not suggesting you need to be experts in everything, but it's about these opportunity challenges that we need to seize.

I don't know if—. I'm not aware of any—.

There have been outline talks with the Cardiff Bay energy-from-waste scheme, using district heating and things like that. Obviously, there's one in Bridgend that has had early talks as well. So, where they are available, they are being pursued.

Okay. So, are health boards restricted by capacity, or other things they're firefighting, so that they can't do this, or what are the main barriers to making more progress on this?

That would probably be down to the individual health boards as well. But cost is certainly one thing that would possibly be a barrier to it as well, and also connecting into the existing estate. Our estate, as we've already mentioned, is an ageing estate, and making sure that we've got the correct interfaces into them do make it slightly more difficult, when we've got to make sure that we've got the redundancies in place, so that we can protect patient care.

I suppose, fundamentally, the question there is: to what extent are these collaborations happening on an ad hoc basis, or to what extent there is sufficiently robust collaboration across both the public and, actually, private sectors, in some respects, to drive that forward?

Because, if you don't present a business case to Welsh Government, they're not going to be able to evaluate and say, 'Go ahead'.

The suggestion in the previous session was that it tends to be a bit ad hoc.

Yes, I think it probably is ad hoc, actually, yes.

Okay. That's fine.

Okay. All right. So, what can we do to accelerate this process, given we've got an emergency?

Well, there would need to be very senior level engagement, I guess, initially, to try to look at some of these more innovative options. And—

Isn't that your role—you guys? You're all very senior people.

Well, yes, and I suppose it's trying to deal with the magnitude of the issues, in a sense, and trying to prioritise where the greatest benefit is in terms of carbon, in this case. If you look at our plan, the key carbon benefits—obviously, there's a lot in procurement—are the building itself and then transportation. So, you would need a resource to really pursue those areas. I guess that the Welsh Government energy service would have a handle across a lot of this, I guess.

Okay. But you're relying on them to drive this forward, yes?

The particular example that you've mentioned, about district heating schemes, there isn't a national perspective on that—you're right there, yes.

Given that you mentioned the Welsh Government energy service, I know Huw wanted to come in on that.

Yes. It's just a good opportunity to follow up on that, because if that is the organisation that should have a more regional grip on this, as well, and bring partners together, including some of these more innovation tie-ins of different technologies that can mutually benefit people, what's your take on the Welsh Government energy service at the moment? What are your views on how effective it is, what support they've given, and perhaps what more can be done, bearing in mind Jenny's questions?

Well, they certainly provide a lot of support to us. I mentioned the major hospitals renewable energy feasibility studies. They've done work with you—

Significant, yes.

—on the transportation side, doing transportation surveys across all of the health boards, as well as smaller projects. We've recently engaged them to look at one of our offices in Swansea, for solar panels in that particular building. So, they'll do a feasibility study on that.

So, you've had good support from them, with their expertise. It's going forward for reprocurement shortly. Would you have any suggestions, from your perspective, about, in that reprocurement design, what could perhaps be better? Should we introduce the more regional element of bringing different partners together, rather than just individual support for individual projects and individual sites and locations?

Well, I think the NHS generally has tended to use them on an individual commission, if you like. And I don't know enough about them, in a sense, in terms of how they're structured and their relationship with the Welsh Government. But, clearly, they have the sort of expertise that could provide the body to bring these sorts of issues together. So, yes, it certainly would be an option to look at.

Okay.

Okay. Thank you. Sorry, back to you, Jenny.

What's the role of the PSBs in all this, because, obviously, you're represented there, as are local authorities and other bodies? So, isn't this a place where you could be sharing best practice and identifying that?

Yes, that certainly would appear to be an appropriate body that could receive this information.

But, in your experience, that's not where you've had useful discussions.

It's not. Personally, I haven't been involved in those boards.

Certainly, up until now, and again, from the procurement viewpoint, we've looked at health independently of anything else, because that's my focus, that's my responsibility, and that's where my accountability lies. We do link in with our local authority colleagues in respect of procurement, as we did very successfully during COVID, for instance, and I suspect that this is an area that will develop. So, on those communities of practice that I mentioned earlier, we would have local authority representation alongside us and Welsh Government. So, those links are there, those networks have started to be developed. And while it's not addressing those issues yet, I think the framework for getting those addressed—and hopefully in the not-too-distant future—is already in place. 

What about procurement of food? Clearly, it's something where both of you are procuring substantial amounts of food. They're expanding school meal services. How are you piggy-backing on that discussion? 

Well, I would suggest that, maybe, local authorities are piggy-backing on us, because we've done joint procurements with at least one local authority quite recently around a significant food contract. And what we're doing, particularly in food, is targeting and working with local producers, providers and wholesalers as well, and making those arrangements, where we can, available to local authority colleagues to access, so that we start to consolidate not just our procurement activity, but the benefits that come with local providers, both in terms of social value generally and in terms of decarbonisation.  

Okay. Thanks. 

Okay. Have you made any estimates of the actual cost of reaching your targets, and, if you have, then how are you discussing with the Welsh Government how to meet those? 

Not in terms of the overall targets. It's—

Too many moving parts, is it? 

Well, they should come through the decarbonisation action plans, and I don't—. Some are costed, but they're not all costed. So, there isn't an overall figure at the moment. 

Okay, but, clearly, Government would need to step in and support, I'd imagine. 

Yes. 

Yes. Okay, fine. Thank you. Right, okay, we'll move on to Delyth, then. 

Diolch, Cadeirydd. Good afternoon, everyone. In order for us to know how much of a hill we've got to climb here, obviously, we need to have an accurate picture of how bad the situation is with emissions. Can you tell us, please, in terms of how emissions are being reported, how usable is the Welsh public sector net-zero carbon reporting guide? How usable is it, and are there any improvements that you think should be made to that guide to make it more usable? I can anticipate the fact that I'm guessing that there probably are some things that need to be improved, because what doesn't need to be improved? 

So, from mainly the buildings and transport side, a lot of the information collected is readily available within the NHS anywhere we collect it through our own systems. It has got more user friendly as we've gone along, making sure—. It probably goes back to the resources and the training that we spoke about before. As people get more aware of it, we're getting better at finding the information and better at making sure that that information is actually correct as it goes in. It is actually becoming probably the benchmarking tool that we would be using, going forward, especially against the public sector. Obviously, it's very, very difficult to really compare what the local authorities are doing compared to the hospitals, but it does give us a very good, year-on-year now, benchmark going forward of where we can look in the various area to see where we've got problems, where we can better understand what actually are the targets that we're looking to hit.   

Thank you, Craig. And in terms of, as you say, the difficulties of comparing what's happening in hospitals with what's happening in other areas of the public sector, and in terms of being able to analyse that yourselves, or, again, in terms of helping the reporting process, is there further guidance that you would require or welcome in terms of either reporting or just data management on this, generally?