Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol

Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee

13/10/2021

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Alun Davies MS
Carolyn Thomas MS
Delyth Jewell MS Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
Hefin David MS
Heledd Fychan MS
Tom Giffard MS

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Caitriona Noonan Prifysgol Caerdydd
Cardiff University
Dr Ruth McElroy Prifysgol De Cymru
University of South Wales
Elinor Williams Ofcom
Ofcom
Gareth Williams TAC
TAC
Hywel Wiliam Pwyllgor Cynghori Ofcom yng Nghymru
Ofcom Advisory Committee for Wales
Owen Evans S4C
S4C
Phil Henfrey ITV Cymru Wales
ITV Cymru Wales
Rhuanedd Richards BBC Cymru Wales
BBC Cymru Wales

Swyddogion y Senedd a oedd yn bresennol

Senedd Officials in Attendance

Martha Da Gama Howells Ail Glerc
Second Clerk
Robin Wilkinson Ymchwilydd
Researcher
Tanwen Summers Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu’r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:31.

The committee met by video-conference.

The meeting began at 09:31. 

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Bore da. Hoffwn groesawu Aelodau i'r cyfarfod hwn o'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, Cyfathrebu, y Gymraeg, Chwaraeon, a Chysylltiadau Rhyngwladol. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 34.19, rwyf wedi penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd rhag dod i gyfarfod y pwyllgor er mwyn diogelu iechyd y cyhoedd. Mae'r cyfarfod hwn yn cael ei ddarlledu'n fyw ar Senedd.tv, gyda'r holl gyfranogwyr yn ymuno drwy fideo gynhadledd. Os ydw i'n gadael y cyfarfod am unrhyw reswm, mae'r pwyllgor wedi cytuno y bydd Heledd Fychan yn cadeirio dros dro. Oes gan unrhyw Aelodau fuddiannau i'w datgan, plis? Nac oes. Ocê.

Good morning. I'd like to welcome Members to this meeting of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I have determined that the public are excluded from attending the committee's meeting in order to protect public health. This meeting is being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video-conference. If for any reason I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Heledd Fychan will temporarily chair. Are there any declarations of interest to make? I see that there are none. Okay.

2. Dyfodol cyfryngau gwasanaeth cyhoeddus: Ofcom
2. Future of public service media: Ofcom

Wel, fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen i eitem 2, sef dyfodol cyfryngau gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, sesiwn gydag—[Torri ar draws.]—Ofcom.

We'll move on to item 2, which is the future of public service media—[Interruption.]

Sori, Gadeirydd, roeddwn i'n methu cael eich sylw chi. Roeddwn i jest eisiau rhoi gwybod, o ran un o'r bobl sydd o'n blaenau ni heddiw, dwi yn adnabod Rhuanedd Richards yn bersonol.

Sorry, Chair, I couldn't get your attention there. I just wanted to let you know, in terms of one of the witnesses coming before us today, I do know Rhuanedd Richards personally.

Diolch am roi hwnna ar y cofnod. Diolch, Heledd, a sori doeddwn i ddim wedi gweld eich llaw. Fe wnawn ni symud at eitem 2, sesiwn gydag Ofcom. Elinor, gallaf i ofyn ichi gyflwyno'ch hunan ar gyfer y cofnod, plis?

Thank you for putting that on the record. Sorry, Heledd, I didn't see you putting your hand up there. We'll move on to item 2, which is the future of public service media with Ofcom. Elinor, can I ask you to introduce yourself for the record?

Yn sicr. Bore da. Elinor Williams ydw i, a dwi'n bennaeth materion rheoleiddiol i Ofcom yng Nghymru.

Certainly. Good morning. I'm Elinor Williams, and I'm the head of regulatory affairs for Ofcom in Wales.

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn am hwnna. Mae gennym ni nifer o bethau dŷn ni eisiau eu codi gyda chi'r bore yma, a dim lot o amser, felly os gallaf i ofyn i Aelodau, a hefyd i chi, Elinor, os yn bosibl, i fod yn eithaf cryno gyda beth dŷn ni yn ei ddweud, fel ein bod ni'n gallu mynd drwy nifer o bethau. Jest un cwestiwn cychwynnol gen i: mae nifer o'r newidiadau sydd wedi cael eu hargymell yn mynd i effeithio'n fawr ar Gymru; pa newidiadau, neu ba newid, ŷch chi'n meddwl bydd fwyaf pwysig neu arwyddocaol i Gymru?

Great. Thank you very much for that. We have a number of things that we want to talk to you about this morning. We don't have a great deal of time, so if I can ask Members, and you too, Elinor, please, to be succinct in your responses and in your answers. So, just a quick question from me to start: there are a number of changes that have been recommended that are going to have a major impact on Wales; what changes, or what change, do you think will be most important or significant for Wales?

Wel, yn gyntaf, dim ond gair o ddiolch i'r pwyllgor am ymgymryd â hwn mor gynnar yn eich rhaglen waith. Mae e'n rhywbeth mae Ofcom yn ei groesawu: bod Aelodau'r Senedd yn cymryd cymaint o ddiddordeb yn y pwnc.

Mae yna dri pheth buaswn i'n dweud sy'n gefndir i bob dim fyddai'n ei ddweud y bore yma. Yn gyntaf, bod angen sicrhau bod y gyfundrefn ddarlledu a chynnwys gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yn parhau i fodloni anghenion cynulleidfaoedd, a bod y cynulleidfaoedd hynny yn cael y budd gorau mas o'r system ddarlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Wedyn, bod unrhyw newidiadau sy'n cael eu cyflwyno yn helpu i bontio'r ddarpariaeth rhwng y llinol traddodiadol a'r byd digidol, sef yr angen i foderneiddio, a hefyd bod unrhyw drefniadau sy'n cael eu rhoi ar waith gan ddeddfwriaeth neu reoleiddio yn gynaliadwy—bod yna elfen o hyblygrwydd ynddyn nhw sy'n eu galluogi nhw i gael eu haddasu fel bod amser yn mynd yn ei flaen. 

Mae'r ddogfen yn ddogfen gynhwysfawr; mae'r holl gynnwys yn addas ar gyfer cynulleidfaoedd yng Nghymru. Wrth gwrs, rŷn ni wedi elwa o'r cyfoeth o gynnwys o ansawdd uchel sydd wedi bod ar gael ar deledu ac ar-lein, ac sy'n cael ei ddarparu gan ddarlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus a darlledwyr masnachol, a dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n bwysig iawn i osod allan ar y cychwyn.

Pe byddwn i'n gorfod dewis tri pheth rwyf i'n credu y buaswn i'n pigo allan sy'n fwyaf priodol i gynulleidfaoedd Cymru, byddai hynny'n amlygrwydd ac argaeledd, sef sicrhau'r angen i gynnwys cyfryngau gwasanaeth cyhoeddus fod yn amlwg, ar gael yn eang, ac yn hawdd i ddod o hyd iddo. Yn ail, byddwn i'n rhoi'r angen i foderneiddio amcanion y system bresennol—ein bod ni'n cael set diwygiedig o amcanion cyfryngau gwasanaeth cyhoeddus. Ac wedyn dwi'n credu y buaswn i'n troi at bartneriaethau a'r angen i barhau i gydweithio, i weld cydweithio rhwng y darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus ymysg ei gilydd ac i'r darlledwyr fynd i'r afael â phartneriaethau strategol gydag eraill hefyd. A dwi'n credu, hynny yw, ei fod e'n bwysig iawn dweud fan hyn ein bod ni wedi cael dros 100 o ymatebion i'r ymgynghoriad, nifer fawr ohonyn nhw gan randdeiliaid yng Nghymru, felly mae llais Cymru wedi bod yn amlwg iawn ac rwy'n credu eich bod chi'n gallu gweld hwnna yn y ffordd mae Ofcom wedi mynd o gwmpas gosod y ddogfen.

Well, first of all, may I say thank you to the committee for dealing with this issue so early on in your programme of work? It's something that Ofcom welcomes: that Members of the Senedd are taking such an interest in this topic.

There are three things that I would say that are the background to everything that I will say this morning. First of all, that we need to ensure that the broadcasting regime and public service broadcasting meets the needs of audiences, and continues to do so, and that those audiences get the best benefit from the public service broadcasting system. And that any changes that are introduced do help to bridge the gap between the traditional content and the digital world, and that any arrangements put in place, legislatively or in terms of regulation, are sustainable—that there's an element of flexibility that enables them to be adapted as the time goes by.

The document is a very comprehensive document; the entire content of it is appropriate for audiences in Wales. Of course, we've benefited from the wealth of high-quality content that has been available on television and online, and that is provided by public service broadcasters and commercial broadcasters, and I think that's very important to set out at the beginning.

If I were to have to choose three things I think I would pick out that are most important and relevant to audiences in Wales, they would be prominence and availability, namely ensuring the need to include public service media, that they're prominent, that they're widely available and easy to find. Secondly, I would set out the need to modernise the objectives of the current system, that we have a reformed set of objectives for public service media. And I think, then, I would turn to partnerships and the need to continue to collaborate, to see collaboration between the public service broadcasters amongst themselves, and for those broadcasters to set up strategic partnerships with others too. And I think that it is very important to say, at this point, that we had over 100 responses to the consultation, a vast number of them from stakeholders in Wales, so the voice of Wales has been very prominent, and I think that you can see that in the way that Ofcom has gone about the document.

09:35

Diolch am hwnna, Elinor. Maddeuwch imi am dorri ar draws—rwyf i'n ymwybodol iawn o amser. Bydd nifer o'r pethau dŷch chi wedi eu codi fan hyn yn rai rwyf i'n siŵr bydd yr Aelodau yn mynd ar eu hôl, ond diolch yn fawr iawn am hynna, roedd hwnna'n ddefnyddiol iawn. Gwnawn ni symud ymlaen, os mae'n ocê, at Alun Davies.

Thank you for that, Elinor. Forgive me for cutting across—I'm aware of time. A number of the things that you've raised here will be issues that the Members will want to pursue, but thank you very much for that, that was very useful. We'll turn to Alun Davies, if that's okay.

Diolch yn fawr, a chroeso i'r pwyllgor, Elinor. Dŷn ni wedi cyfarfod o'r blaen, wrth gwrs. Dwi'n gweld beth rydych chi'n ei ddweud amboutu amlygrwydd a prominence, ac yn yr hen ddyddiau, roedd hynny'n ddigon syml, wrth gwrs, drwy'r cyfeirydd rhaglenni electronig, ac roeddech chi'n gallu jest rheoleiddio pwy oedd yn cael pa rif. Nawr, rwy'n defnyddio aps i gael access i wasanaethau'r darlledwyr cyhoeddus. So, sut fuasech chi'n sicrhau bod yr ap yn cael yr amlygrwydd yna dŷch chi'n sôn amdano?

Thank you very much, and welcome to the committee meeting, we've met before, of course. I hear what you say about prominence, and in the old days, it was simple enough, wasn't it? It was the electronic programme guide, and you could regulate who was prominent on that. Now, I use apps to access services by the public service broadcasters. So, how would you ensure that the app receives the prominence that you talk about?

Wel, hynny yw, yr argymhellion rŷn ni'n eu cynnig i'r Llywodraeth yw bod angen cyflwyno deddfwriaeth sy'n diweddaru'r rheolau ar gyfer amlygrwydd, a byddai hynny'n gweithio—. Mae yna dair elfen iddo fe yn y bôn, sef bod rhaid i ddarparwyr cyfryngau cyhoeddus gynnig eu gwasanaeth ar alw i lwyfannau teledu poblogaidd ac wedyn bod yn rhaid i'r llwyfannau gynnwys a rhoi amlygrwydd priodol i gynnwys cyfryngau gwasanaeth cyhoeddus a negodi gyda darparwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yn effeithiol. Wedyn y trydydd peth rŷn ni'n ei gynnig yw bod proses gorfodi a datrys anghydfod effeithiol yn cael ei rhoi yn ei lle, yn debyg iawn i'r system sy'n bodoli ym myd telecomms. Wrth gwrs, mae—

Well, the recommendations that we propose for the Government are that we need to introduce legislation that updates the rules for prominence, and that would work—. Well, there are three elements to that, namely that public service providers have to provide those on-demand services to those popular television platforms, and those platforms need to provide appropriate prominence to the content of public service broadcasters and negotiate with providers of public services effectively. And then, the third thing that we're proposing is that there's a regulatory process, an effective process put in place akin to the system that exists in the world of telecomms—

Gaf i eich stopio chi yn y fan honno? Mae gen i ffôn symudol fan hyn, yr Apple phone, so sut fuasech chi'n sicrhau bod darlledwyr cyhoeddus yn cael y fath o flaenoriaeth maen nhw ei hangen yn fan hyn yn yr Apple store neu ble bynnag? Sut fuasai hynny yn gweithio? Achos dwi'n gweld a dwi'n cyd-fynd â chi, gyda'r amcan, ond dwi ddim cweit yn siŵr sut fuasech chi yn gwneud hynny.

Can I just stop you there? I have a mobile phone here, an Apple phone, so how would you ensure that public broadcasters have that kind of priority that they need in the Apple store or whichever other store it might be? How would that work? I see what you're saying, and I agree with you in terms of the objective, but I'm not entirely sure how you would go about doing that.

Wel, hynny yw, mae e yn mynd i fod lan i'r darlledwyr i drafod gyda'r llwyfannau, ac rwy'n credu ei fod e'n bwynt pwysig inni ddweud nad yw'r argymhellion rŷn ni'n rhoi gerbron yn briodol ar gyfer rhai o'r apiau ŷch chi'n sôn amdanynt o ran y VSPs—sef y video-sharing platforms—a dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n bwysig iawn i osod allan. Dwi'n credu bod amlygrwydd yn un o'r pethau sy'n cael eu trafod ar yr un pryd â thelerau cludo eraill a dwi'n credu bod angen sicrhau bod hwn yn uchel iawn ar yr agenda o ran trefn argaeledd ar alw newydd.

Well, it is going to be up to the providers to discuss and negotiate with the platforms, and I think it is a very important point for us to make that the recommendations that we are putting forward are not relevant to some of the apps that you're talking about in terms of the VSPs, namely the video-sharing platforms. I think that that is very important to note. I think that prominence is one of the things that are discussed at the same time as other conditions of carriage, and I think that we need to ensure that this is very high up on the agenda in terms of the availability of new on demand.

Mae amser yn symud ymlaen, so mae'n rhaid inni symud ymlaen hefyd, ond dwi eisiau dod nôl at hynny, achos dwi ddim yn siŵr eich bod chi wedi ateb y cwestiwn os ydw i'n hollol onest.

Dwi wedi darllen adroddiadau Ofcom fel hyn, ac rydych chi wedi, ers blynyddoedd, ac rydyn ni wedi trafod adroddiadau o'r fath yn flaenorol, a dydy'r hanes ddim yn hanes or-hapus, nac ydy? Rydyn ni wedi gweld dirywiad o ran darlledu gyhoeddus yng Nghymru, a dirywiad yn y math o wasanaeth mae pobl Cymru yn ei gael dros y blynyddoedd. Rydyn ni wedi trafod hynny, a dwi'n credu bod pob un Senedd dwi wedi eistedd ynddo fe wedi trafod hyn.

Dwi eisiau gofyn dau gwestiwn ichi. Oes gan Ofcom y chwant i actually gwneud rhywbeth difrifol, i sicrhau bod Cymru'n cael y math o PSBs maen ei haeddu? Dydyn ni ddim yn cael y gwasanaeth sydd ei angen. Rydyn ni wedi gweld hynny yn ystod fy nghyfnod i, ac rydych chi'n cofio fi'n gweithio i S4C flynyddoedd yn ôl. Ac yn ystod y degawdau diwethaf, rydyn ni wedi gweld PSBs yn dweud eu bod nhw'n methu, am ba bynnag reswm, cynnig y math o wasanaeth cyhoeddus rydyn ni eisiau ei weld. Rydyn ni wedi gweld problemau real yn ystod y ddwy flynedd ddiwethaf gyda newyddion, er enghraifft, a dwi ddim yn gweld bod Ofcom wedi codi bys o ran hynny, os ydw i'n hollol onest gyda chi. Roeddwn i'n gwrando ar Radio 4 y bore yma, a doeddwn i ddim yn gyfforddus iawn â'r ffordd roedden nhw'n trafod Cymru fel gwlad fel rhan o'r Deyrnas Unedig. Oes gan Ofcom y chwant i actually gwneud rhywbeth difrifol i sicrhau dyfodol PSBs yng Nghymru? A'r ail gwestiwn yw: a fuasai'r Adran Digidol, Diwylliant, Cyfryngau a Chwaraeon actually yn delifro arno fe o ran y ddeddfwriaeth, achos fy mhrofiad i o fod yn Weinidog, pan gefais i gyfrifoldeb dros bolisi darlledu, oedd bod DCMS yn ein gweld ni fel problem roedd yn rhaid ei datrys, ac nid yn bartner i weithio gyda ni?

Time is passing, but I do think we do need to return to that, because I'm not sure you have answered the question, if I'm entirely honest. 

I have read the Ofcom reports like this, and you have presented them for several years, and we've discussed reports of this kind in the past. And it isn't an overly happy story, is it? We've seen a decline in public service broadcasting in Wales and a decline in the kinds of services that people in Wales receive over the years. And we've discussed—everybody who has been part of this committee has discussed this in the past.

I want to ask you two questions on this. Does Ofcom have the desire to actually do something seriously to ensure that Wales receives the kind of PSBs that it deserves? We don't receive the service that we deserve. You'll remember that I worked for S4C years ago and, in the past few decades, we have seen PSBs saying that they're failing, for whatever reason, to provide the kind of public service that we want to see. We've seen real problems over the last two years with the news, for example, and I don't see that Ofcom has raised a finger on that, if I'm perfectly honest. And I was listening to Radio 4 this morning, for example, and I wasn't very comfortable with the way that they were discussing Wales as a nation as part of the United Kingdom. So, does Ofcom have the desire to actually do something seriously to ensure the future of PSBs in Wales? And the second question is: would the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport actually deliver on that, in terms of legislation, because my experience of being a Minister, when I was responsible for broadcasting policy, was that DCMS saw us as a kind of problem to be solved, rather than a partner to work with?  

09:40

Dwi'n credu, yn amlwg, fod Ofcom ond yn gallu gweithredu yn ôl y pwerau statudol sydd gyda ni. A dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig gosod allan taw cyngor ac arweiniad clir yw'r argymhellion sydd yn y ddogfen yma i Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae e i fyny iddyn nhw faint o sylw maen nhw'n cymryd o'r argymhellion, a dwi'n credu, a bod yn deg, yn ôl yr hyn rydyn ni'n deall, fod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn awyddus iawn i fynd ati i gyflwyno Bil y cyfryngau yn fuan iawn, a dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n arwydd positif eu bod nhw â'u pryd ar gymryd rhai o'r argymhellion ymlaen. 

O ran yr hyn rydyn ni'n ei wneud yng Nghymru, fel dywedais i ar y dechrau, rwy'n credu bod y ffordd rydyn ni wedi mynd o gwmpas casglu gwybodaeth, rhannu gwybodaeth a gwrando ar farn a llais rhanddeiliaid yng Nghymru yn ystod y broses o roi'r ddogfen yma at ei gilydd yn arwyddocaol o'r ffordd mae Ofcom yn gweithredu yng Nghymru. A dwi ddim yn siŵr fy mod i'n derbyn ein bod ni wedi gweld dirywiad yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf. Os rhywbeth, rydyn ni wedi gweld cynnydd yn y defnydd a'r gwylio i gynnwys darlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, yn enwedig yn ystod y flwyddyn ddiwethaf, lle rydyn ni wedi dibynnu ar newyddion a materion cyfoes sy'n cael eu darparu yn yr iaith Gymraeg gan y darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. Hynny yw, rydyn ni wedi troi fwyfwy at y darlledwyr hynny yn ystod y cyfnod diwethaf yma i'n helpu ni a'n harwain ni trwy'r pandemig. A dwi'n credu mai'r hyn sydd angen nawr yw canolbwyntio ar weld newid yn y system, a sicrhau bod y newid yn delifro ar gyfer cynulleidfaoedd ar gyfer y ddegawd nesaf a sicrhau ei fod yn hyblyg a'n bod ni'n gallu rhoi strwythurau yn eu lle sy'n helpu'r darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus i fynd i'r afael â'r heriau sy'n cael eu rhoi ger eu bron nhw oherwydd ymddangosiad rhai o'r mawrion, fel Netflix, Disney+ ac yn y blaen. 

I think obviously Ofcom can only take action according to the statutory powers that we have, and I think it's important to note that advice and clear guidance are the recommendations in the report to the United Kingdom Government. It's up to them how much attention they give to the recommendations and, to be fair, according to what we understand, the United Kingdom Government is very eager to introduce a media Bill very soon. And I think that that is a positive sign that they want to take forward some of the recommendations. 

In terms of what we do in Wales, as I said at the beginning, I think that the way that we've gone about gathering information, sharing information and listening to the voice of stakeholders in Wales during the process of compiling this document demonstrates the way that Ofcom does work in Wales. And I'm not sure that I accept that we've seen a decline over the past few years. If anything, we've seen an increase in the use of public service content, particularly during the past year, where we've depended on news and current affairs that are provided in the medium of Welsh by the public service broadcasters in Wales, and we've turned increasingly to those broadcasters over the past period to help us, or to lead us through the pandemic. So, I think what we need now is to focus on seeing that change in the system, ensuring that the change delivers for audiences over the next decade to ensure that it is flexible and that we can put structures in place that help the PSBs to deal with the challenges that face them because of the appearance of some of these major corporations, such as Netflix and Disney+ and so on.  

Iawn. Dwi'n ymwybodol iawn o'r amser—

I'm aware of time—

I would appreciate any information from Ofcom on the increase in provision from PSBs for Wales, because I haven't seen it, and I don't think that any PSBs have really argued that case in front of us. I'd also be very interested in any work that Ofcom has done. Because you say that you haven't got powers, Elinor, but you've got the power to write reports, and you do write quite a lot of reports. And you could write a report, following on from Anthony King's very good report, on news coverage in the United Kingdom—which I think would be very useful, were we to see that—over the last year, specifically about the pandemic. But I'll leave it there.  

09:45

Dim ond i ddod i mewn fanna yn sydyn o ran darpariaeth newyddion, hynny yw, rŷn ni wedi bod yn ymgymryd â darn o waith rŷn ni wedi'i gomisiynu yn ddiweddar ar ddarpariaeth newyddion ar y rhwydwaith ac fel mae hynny'n cael ei adlewyrchu yn y cenhedloedd. Rŷn ni wrthi ar hyn o bryd yn edrych ar rai o'r canfyddiadau. Byddwn ni'n edrych, yn fwy na thebyg, ar gyhoeddi rhyw fath o adroddiad yn y dyfodol agos ar hynny.

I want to come in quickly there in terms of the provision of news. We have been undertaking a piece of work that we have commissioned recently on the provision of news on the network and how that is reflected in the nations. We are currently looking at some of the findings. We'll be looking to publish some kind of report in the near future on that.

Ocê. Wel, bydden ni'n rili diolchgar i weld copi o hwnna, plîs. Diolch am hynna. Gwnawn ni symud ymlaen at Heledd Fychan.

Okay. Well, we'll be very grateful to see a copy of that. Thank you for that. We'll move on to Heledd Fychan.

Diolch. Bore da, Elinor.

Thank you. Good morning, Elinor.

Bore da.

Good morning.

Jest i bigo i fyny ar bwyntiau gan Alun o ran amlygrwydd, roeddech chi'n sôn ei bod hi i fyny i'r darlledwyr ei drafod. Oes yna gefnogaeth y mae Ofcom yn bwriadu ei chynnig o ran hynny? Rydym ni'n gwybod bod S4C wedi bod yn ceisio ymgyrchu am hyn am flynyddoedd lawer, ond heb gael lot o lwyddiant. Wedyn, mae'n un peth cael hwn fel argymhelliad, ond a fydd yna gefnogaeth gan Ofcom hefyd o ran hyn?

Just to pick up on points made by Alun in terms of prominence, you talked about it being up to the broadcasters to discuss that. Is there support that Ofcom intends to provide in that regard? We know that S4C has been trying to campaign for this for many years and hasn't had a great deal of success. It's one thing to have this as a recommendation, but will there be support given by Ofcom in this regard?

Yn sicr, a dwi'n credu, hynny yw, ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn—.  O ran y ddarpariaeth, dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig edrych ar beth sy'n cael ei ddarlledu gan y darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus hefyd—peth o'r deunydd na fyddech chi'n ei weld gan Netflix a Disney+. Hynny yw, mae ein darlledwyr ni—y BBC, ITV ac S4C a Channel 4, wrth gwrs—yn darlledu ystod eang ar draws pob genre ar y teledu; stwff fel newyddion, materion cyfoes, deunydd yn y Gymraeg sydd ddim yn mynd i gael ei gynhyrchu gan Netflix ac yn y blaen. Dwi'n credu bod hwnna'n bwynt hynod bwysig—ein bod ni'n edrych ar roi amlygrwydd, a'i fod ar gael yn eang ac yn rhwydd iawn i bobl ddod o hyd iddo fe ar rai o'r llwyfannau newydd yma sydd ar gael.

Certainly, and I think that it is very important—. In terms of the provision, I think it's important to look at what is being broadcast by the PSBs too—some of the content that you wouldn't see on Netflix and Disney+. That is, our broadcasters—the BBC, ITV, S4C and Channel 4, of course—broadcast a wide range across all kinds of genres on television; things such as news, current affairs programmes, content in Welsh that isn't going to be produced by Netflix and so on. I think that that is a very important point to make—that we do look to give prominence to that, and that it's widely available and easily accessible and easy for people to find on some of the new platforms that are available.

Ond dydych chi ddim yn meddwl y dylai gwasanaethau fideo fel Disney+ a Netflix fod yn ddarostyngedig i'r rheolau amlygrwydd newydd yma, nac ydych?

But don't you think that video services such as Disney+ and Netflix should be subject to the new prominence rules?

Nac ydym, oherwydd, yn syml iawn, does ganddyn nhw—. Dyw'r llwyfan y maen nhw'n ei ddefnyddio ddim yn benthyg ei hun i fod yn—. Fel sydd gyda chi'r canllaw electronig, dyw e ddim yn benthyg ei hun i roi amlygrwydd. Mae e mwy fel rhyw fath o gatalog neu lyfrgell o gynnwys rŷch chi'n chwilio amdano fe. Hynny yw, wedi dweud hynny, ar rai o'r platfformau ar deledu clyfar, mae sgôp i roi amlygrwydd i'r darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, ac mae hynny'n rhywbeth y mae Ofcom yn sicr am weld yn digwydd. Byddwn ni yn gwneud y cyfan y gallwn ni i gydweithio â Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig i sicrhau bod hynny'n gweithio yn y ffordd orau bosibl.

No, simply because the platform that they use doesn't lend itself to—. As you have that EPG, it doesn't lend itself to giving prominence. It's more like a kind of catalogue or library of content that you seek and search through. Having said that, on some of the platforms—on smart TV, for example—there is scope to give prominence to the PSBs, and that is something that Ofcom certainly wants to see happening. We will do all that we can to collaborate with the United Kingdom Government to ensure that that works in the best possible way.

Diolch. Un o'r pethau, o ddarllen yr adroddiadau, roedd, yn amlwg, dŷch chi'n canolbwyntio ar deledu, neu gynnwys ar gyfer y teledu ym mha bynnag ffordd rydych chi yn ei wylio fo. Dwi'n gweld bod y dystiolaeth y mae'r BBC wedi'i rhoi ichi yn sôn am yr angen efo radio i fod yn lot mwy amlwg. A oes yna unrhyw beth, o ran mynd â'r argymhellion rhagddynt, rydych chi wedi meddwl amdano o ran yr elfen radio, yn arbennig o ran y BBC, yn amlwg—meddwl o ran y ffaith, mewn llefydd yng Nghymru, ei bod hi'n anodd iawn cael y radio heblaw drwy deledu neu ddyfais ddigidol yn aml? Wedyn, dwi jest eisiau gofyn pam, felly, nad yw radio yn fwy amlwg yn yr adroddiadau hyn.

Thank you. One of the things, from reading the reports, was that, clearly, you are focusing on television, or content for television in whichever way you access it. I see that the evidence given by the BBC mentions the need for radio to be much more prominent. Is there anything, in terms of the recommendations, that you've thought about in terms of the radio element, particularly in terms of the BBC—thinking about the fact that, in parts of Wales, it's very difficult to tune into the radio other than through the tv or digital devices? So, I just want to ask why radio isn't more prominent in these reports.

Hynny yw, mae'r adroddiad yma yn edrych yn sbesiffig ar deledu a'r gwasanaeth darlledu cyhoeddus. Mae'n siŵr eich bod chi'n ymwybodol bod yna adolygiad ar radio wedi bod yn mynd ar ei flaen mewn paralel â hyn, os liciwch chi, ac, yn ôl yr hyn dwi'n ei ddeall, mae DCMS yn edrych ar gyhoeddi'r adroddiad yna yn y dyfodol agos.

Well, this report looks specifically at television and public service broadcasting. I'm sure you'll be aware that there is a review of radio that has been under way in parallel with this, if you will, and, as I understand it, DCMS is looking to publish that report in the near future.

09:50

Ocê. Gwnawn ni symud ymlaen at Tom Giffard.

Okay. We'll move on to Tom Giffard.

Diolch, Delyth. I just want to move the conversation on a bit to the proposed new rules on the production of public service media content. So, what is the problem that Ofcom's trying to fix with its suggestions there, and what are the proposed solutions to address them?

On production with the independent sector?

Gyda'r sector annibynol, ife?

With the independent sector, is that it?

Wel, hynny yw, o ran y broblem rŷn ni'n trio ei datrys, mi fyddwch chi'n ymwybodol bod yna gwotâu ar gyfer y sector annibynnol, a'u bod nhw wedi bod yn eu lle ers blynyddoedd lawer. Maen nhw wedi cyflawni'r hyn rôn nhw i fod i'w wneud, ond dwi'n credu bod—a dwi'n credu yn ôl yr hyn mae'r rhanddeiliaid wedi bod yn ei ddweud wrthom ni yn ystod yr ymgynghoriad, mae yna ymateb positif iawn iddyn nhw, a bod yna effaith bositif iddyn nhw hefyd. Maen nhw wedi cyflawni lot o ran sicrhau bod y darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yn cydweithio gyda'r sector annibynnol a sicrhau bod y sector annibynnol yn un hyfyw a bod y sector yn cyfrannu yn helaeth at yr economi greadigol yng Nghymru ac yn y cenhedloedd. Ein bwriad ni yw sicrhau bod y cydweithio agos yna yn parhau, a rŷn ni yn awyddus iawn i weld deddfwriaeth yn cael ei phennu er mwyn gweld bod y system yn cael ei diwygio. Mae angen i ni ddiweddaru'r system a sicrhau ein bod ni yn pontio'r ddarpariaeth sydd wedi gwneud cymaint ar gyfer y byd lliniol traddodiadol a sicrhau ei fod e wedyn yn addas ar gyfer y byd digidol. A dwi'n credu os ŷch chi'n sôn am beth yw'r broblem rŷn ni'n trio ei datrys, y broblem yw sicrhau bod y cyfan yn addas ar gyfer byd digidol.

Well, in terms of the problem that we're trying to solve, you'll be aware that there are quotas for the independent sector, and that they have been in place for several years. They've achieved what they were set up to achieve, and I think, according to what stakeholders have been telling us during the consultation, there has been a very positive response to them, and there has been a positive impact that they've had too. They have achieved a great deal in terms of ensuring that the public service broadcasters collaborate with the independent sector and ensure that the independent sector is a viable one and that the sector contributes a great deal to the creative economy in Wales and in the nations. Our intention is to ensure that the close collaboration continues, and we're very eager to see legislation being introduced in order to see that the system is reformed. We need to update the system and ensure that we transition between the provision that's done so much for the traditional linear system to ensure that it is then appropriate for the digital world. And if you're talking about what the problem we're trying to solve is, well, the problem is ensuring that all of it is appropriate for the digital world.

So, following on from that, just to hone in on that a little bit, going back to television and broadcasting, where we've got public service media content mandated through current rules, I don't necessarily think that always reaches a very diverse audience. It reaches a group of people that perhaps are interested in that sort of content and would probably seek out that content anyway. So, do you think the rules can be modernised to ensure that that content is directed at a wider and perhaps younger audience and other target demographics, or do you think that's a responsibility for the broadcaster themselves perhaps, not the rules, to do?

Wel, mae hynny o ran—. Allech chi ailddweud y cwestiwn, sori?

Well, in terms of—. Could you just repeat the question, please?

Yes, of course. So, in terms of broadening the audience that access that independent media, the public service content that is available, if we want to broaden that audience, if we want more younger people to watch, a different demographic of people to be viewing that, in your opinion, is that something where you'd step in and, through the application of your rules, tell the broadcasters to provide content in a different way so that it targets younger demographics, for example? Or do you think the rules are fine as they are, and it's an individual decision for the broadcasters to make?

O ran hynny, mae yna gwotâu sydd wedi bod yn eu lle sydd wedi sicrhau bod yn rhaid i'r darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus ddarlledu hyn a hyn o gynnwys penodol ar gyfer rhai genres. Felly, hynny yw, mae'n bwysig iawn diogelu rhai o'r rheini, er enghraifft, newyddion, materion cyfoes a rhaglenni yn y Gymraeg. Ond dwi'n credu hefyd byddwn i'n awyddus iawn i weld—a dwi'n credu y byddai darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus eu hunain yn dweud, yn hynny o beth, eu bod nhw am fynd i'r afael â sicrhau eu bod nhw'n targedu'r to iau yn llawer gwell. Rŷn ni'n gweld bod rhywun fel Channel 4, er enghraifft, yn dda iawn yn gwneud hyn, a dwi'n credu taw—yn dod nôl i'r pwynt ar amlygrwyd, mae e'n bwysig iawn sicrhau bod y bobl ifanc yma yn gwybod pa ddeunydd sy'n cael eu cynhyrchu gan ba ddarlledwr, a sut mae'n mynd o gwmpas i edrych arno fe. Os ŷch chi'n edrych ar rai o'r pethau sydd ar Netflix, er enghraifft—cymerwch rywbeth fel, dwi ddim yn gwybod, Friday Night Dinner; mae gen i blant ifanc sy'n ffans mawr o hwnna, ond, dwi'n siŵr, yn eu tyb nhw, mae'n cael ei gynhyrchu gan Netflix, oherwydd dyna le mae ar gael. Ond, yn y bôn, Channel 4 sy'n ei gynhyrchu fe. Ond dwi ddim yn credu bod pobl ifanc yn gwybod hynny, a dwi'n credu bod hynny'n un o'r heriau: i sicrhau bod y deunydd sy'n cael eu cynhyrchu gan y darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yn cael eu labeli'n gywir ar rai o'r llwyfannau digidol, a bod yr amlygrwyd hwnnw yn cael ei roi iddyn nhw.

In terms of that, there are quotas that have been in place that have ensured that the public service broadcasters have to broadcast so much specific content for some genres. So, it is very important to safeguard some of that provision, namely, news, current affairs, programmes broadcast through the medium of Welsh. But I think also I would be very eager—and I think the public service broadcasters themselves would say this too, that they want to ensure that they are targeting the younger generation far better. We see that Channel 4, for example, is very good at doing that. I think, coming back to the point on prominence, it's very important to ensure that these young people know what content is produced by what broadcaster and how they can then watch it. If you look at some of the things that are on Netflix, for example—if you take something like Friday Night Dinner, I have young children who are huge fans of that programme, and I'm sure that, in their view, it's produced by Netflix, because that's where it's available. But Channel 4 actually produces it. But I don't think young people know that, and I think that's one of the challenges—to ensure that the content that is produced by public service broadcasters is labelled correctly on some of the digital platforms, and that that prominence is given to them.

09:55

Ocê, Thomas, ydych chi'n hapus? Neu oeddech chi eisiau gofyn cwestiwn cyflym arall?

Okay, Thomas, are you happy? Or did you want to ask another quick question?

Sorry, I'll be really quick. So, I had a meeting quite recently with the BBC, and I had a long discussion about local journalism, particularly in my area where I live, in Bridgend. I feel that the local stories and local aspects are not covered very well, are not very well served, by the BBC. They're very good at covering national Wales-wide media, but in terms of specific local content—. And I'm sure that might be something reflected in areas that other Members live in as well. They spoke quite a lot to me about the rules that Ofcom have regarding local journalism to help protect local newspapers. Now, in Bridgend specifically, there has kind of been a market failure, I would say, in terms of that provision of local newspapers and local stories, or indeed local radio. It just isn't the same as it was 10 or 15 years ago. So, is there any consideration from you in terms of modernising those rules to ensure that all areas can receive local news, and broadcasters like the BBC could step in, perhaps, where newspapers haven't been able to?

Hynny yw, dim ond i fod yn glir, does gan Ofcom ddim cyfrifoldeb o ran newyddiaduraeth nag o ran yr hyn sy'n cael adrodd yn y cyfryngau print. Dwi'n credu beth sydd yn bwysig yw dweud bod y rhwydwaith print yng Nghymru yn gymharol wan, a bod y pwyslais, felly, ar bwysigrwydd yr hyn sy'n cael ei ddarparu gan y darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus hyd yn oed yn fwy pwysig. A dwi'n gweld—. Hynny yw, o ran—. Mae'r BBC yn dda iawn o ran cynhyrchu newyddion lleol. Mae ganddyn nhw eu rhwydwaith o newyddiadurwyr, ac, wrth gwrs, mae ITV yng Nghymru yn bwysig iawn yn hynny o beth, yn darparu newyddion. Ac rŷn ni wedi gweld, yn ystod y pandemig, pobl yn troi at y ddau ddarparwr er mwyn cael newyddion dibynadwy ac amserol. Dwi'n credu y byddai newyddion a materion cyfoes yn ddau o'r prif bethau y byddwn ni'n edrych arnyn nhw i sicrhau bod yna gwotâu pendant ar eu cyfer nhw gogyfer â'r dyfodol mewn unrhyw system buasen ni'n ei foderneiddio.

Well, just to be clear, Ofcom has no responsibility in terms of journalism, nor in terms of what is reported in print news. I think that what is important is to state that the print network in Wales is relatively weak, and that the emphasis therefore on the importance of what is provided by the public service broadcasters—they're even more important in that regard. The BBC is very good in terms of producing local news. They have their network of journalists, and, of course, ITV in Wales is very important in that regard in terms of providing news. And we've seen, during the pandemic, people turning to those two providers to receive dependable news and timely news. And I think that news and current affairs would be two of the main things that we will be looking at, in terms of ensuring that there is a significant and secure future for them in any system that we would be modernising.

Mae'n flin gyda fi, ond bydd yn rhaid inni symud ymlaen nawr.

I'm sorry, but we'll have to move on.

I just wanted to be really clear, just so I got my question across properly. I wasn't asking you about local newspapers and local journalism; it was the fact the BBC says they cannot intervene on local stories because they want to protect newspapers. But, obviously, where those newspapers don't exist or are really scaled back, perhaps those rules aren't working. That was the only thing I wanted to flag. 

10:00

Diolch am yr eglurhad yna. Diolch am hynna, Tom. Rydyn ni mewn i'n 10 munud olaf yn y sesiwn yma, felly os gallaf erfyn eto am gwestiynau ac atebion eithaf cryno, byddai hynny'n ddefnyddiol. A gawn ni symud ymlaen at Hefin David? Os ydy Hefin yn gallu cael ei ddadfiwtio. Grêt. 

Thank you for explaining that. Thank you, Tom. We're into our last 10 minutes in this session, so if I could urge Members to be succinct please, that would be great. Can we move on to Hefin David? If Hefin could be unmuted. Great. 

I was just waiting for it to unmute. With regard to the report, there's a series of recommendations that are quite broad and perhaps lack a little bit of specificity. And the landscape of media generally is fragmenting quickly. One of the things you say in the report is that you would like the UK Government to bring in primary legislation to deal with some of the recommendations you make. But isn't there a danger that by the time primary legislation is developed, the landscape has changed again and you're constantly playing catch-up, and that these recommendations are broad because you're playing this kind of catch-up? 

Dwi'n credu y dof fi nôl i beth ddywedais i ar y dechrau, sef sicrhau bod yr Aelodau yn deall mai cyngor ac arweiniad i'r Llywodraeth yw beth sydd yn y ddogfen, a holl bwrpas y rhaglen waith o ran Sgrin Fach: Trafodaeth Fawr oedd archwilio ffyrdd newydd y gellid delifro darlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus fel ein bod ni'n sicrhau bod cynulleidfaoedd yn cael y budd gorau o'r system gogyfer y degawd nesaf. Ac yn hynny o beth, dwi'n credu bod sicrhau bod yna elfen o hyblygrwydd—mae e'n fwriadol gennym ni i beidio â bod yn ddisgrifiadol, yn prescriptive iawn yn yr hyn rŷm ni wedi'i gynnig, oherwydd rŷn ni'n moyn sicrhau bod y darlledwyr yn cael—

I think I'll come back to what I said at the beginning, namely ensuring that Members understand that it's advice and guidance to the Government that is contained in the document, and the whole purpose of the work programme in terms of Small Screen: Big Debate was to ensure that we can deliver public service broadcasting so that we do ensure that audiences derive the maximum benefit from the system for the next decade. And in that regard, I think that ensuring that there is an element of flexibility is important. We've deliberately not been too descriptive or prescriptive in what we have suggested, because we want to ensure that the broadcasters— 

Because of time, I'd just like to interrupt you there. You said you're not being too prescriptive, but the problem is legislation needs to be prescriptive. It needs to be very specific. It says clearly that

'The most important recommendations in this Statement are for Government to take forward through new primary legislation.'

It says that in the report. But when you go to the recommendation,

'Update the rules for PSM providers, so that their requirements ensure online and broadcast TV audiences benefit from PSM',

that's so broad. I know if I was a legislator in the UK Government, I'd struggle to turn that into something that means something. 

Ydy, ond dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig iawn gosod allan nad yw Ofcom ddim yn creu deddfwriaeth o gwbl; mae hwnna lan i Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn yr achos yma. Ond yn sicr, mi fyddwn ni yn cydweithio ac yn helpu swyddogion yn DCMS i ddeall ac i roi yr argymhellion gorau gerbron er mwyn sicrhau bod y ddeddfwriaeth yn gweithio ar gyfer cynulleidfaoedd ar draws y Deyrnas Unedig, gan gynnwys cynulleidfaoedd yng Nghymru, wrth gwrs. 

Yes, but I think it's very important to set out that Ofcom doesn't create legislation at all; that's up to the UK Government in this case. But certainly, we will be collaborating and helping officials in DCMS to understand and to set out the best recommendations to ensure that the legislation works for audiences across the United Kingdom, including audiences in Wales, of course. 

If we have a look at the other recommendation,

'Update the rules for PSM providers, so that requirements allow each PSM provider to adapt their services to meet changing audience needs',

and also 'audiences benefit', Tom Giffard has already touched on Wales, but what about things like production in Wales, portrayal of Wales, access to local news services? If the UK Government is legislating on that, then that's surely not going to be a big part of the benefit. And what worries me is the gap between the broad recommendations that you make and, actually, the consequences for people here in our country, here in Wales. 

Of course, as I think I mentioned, the quota system—.

Mae'r system gwotâu yn bodoli, mae e'n cyflawni ei bwrpas, a dwi'n credu bod Ofcom yn cydnabod, a swyddogion yn DCMS, ei bod hi'n bwysig diogelu rhai elfennau o'r amgylchedd darlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, ac mae newyddion a materion cyfoes yn elfennau pwysig iawn o'r rheini. Rŷch chi'n sôn am gynrychiolaeth a phortread. Mae hwnna yn un o bwrpasau craidd darlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, wrth gwrs, sef y gallu i ddinasyddion weld eu hunain a gweld eu bywydau yn cael eu hadlewyrchu ar y sgrin, a dwi'n credu bod hwnna yn rhywbeth mae'n darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus ni yng Nghymru yn moyn ei weld. Mae e'n rhywbeth yn sicr mae'r BBC—

The quota system does exist, it is achieving its purpose, and I think that it is something that Ofcom acknowledges, and, indeed, officials in DCMS— that it is importtant to protect some elements of the public service media environment, and news and current affairs are very important elements of that environment. You're talking about representation and portrayal. That is one of the core purposes of public service broadcasting, of course, namely the ability for citizens to see themselves presented and their lives reflected on the screen, and I think that that is something that our public service broadcasters in Wales want to see. It's something, certainly, that the BBC—

10:05

Is that specifically, then—? What I've seen over time is the amount of quotas and amount of requirements have gradually reduced as the media landscape has fragmented. So, is it even possible in the future? Will it be possible to put this duty on broadcasters to do what you're suggesting they should do, or is the landscape just too fragmented to achieve that in a meaningful way?

Na. Rŷn ni wedi gweld y system gwotâu yn darparu ar gyfer cynulleidfaoedd yn ystod y degawd diwethaf, a dwi'n credu yr hyn sydd angen sicrhau yw ei bod hi'n gweithredu ar gyfer y cyfnod nesaf yma. Does gan Netflix a Disney+ ddim diddordeb cynhyrchu deunydd am Gymru, nac yn sicr yn y Gymraeg. Yn ddiweddar iawn, dwi'n credu, roedd yna gynhyrchiad yn cael ei ffilmio yng Nghaerdydd; dwi'n credu bod y deunydd yna yn cael effaith ac impact ar economi greadigol Cymru, ond, hynny yw, yn y bôn, cyfres wedi ei seilio yn Efrog Newydd oedd y cynhyrchiad. Dwi'n credu ei fod e'n rhywbeth lle mae'n rhaid edrych ar beth rŷn ni'n dda yn ei wneud, a sicrhau ein bod ni'n gwneud mwy ohono fe yn y dyfodol.

No. We've seen the quota system providing for audiences during the past decade, and I think that what we need to ensure is that it works for the coming period. Netflix and Disney+ don't have any interest in producing content about Wales, nor certainly do they want to produce content in Welsh. I think very recently, there was a production being filmed in Cardiff; I think that that content has an impact on the creative economy of Wales, but it was a series based in New York. I think it's something where we need to look at what we're good at and ensure that we do more of that in the future.

Would it be—? Last question. Would it be likely or possibly the case that, BBC aside, the commercial public service broadcasters might say, 'Well, this isn't really a space we want to be in any more; the regulations are so constricting and the landscape provides so much opportunity that it might be better to move out of the public service broadcasting space, because the benefits we got in 1983 are not going to be the same as the benefits we get in 2023'?

Does gennym ni ddim achos i gredu bod y darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus masnachol o'r farn hynny. Mae trwydded ITV yng Nghymru—mi fydd Ofcom yn cyflwyno adroddiad i'r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol mis Mehefin nesaf ar gynaliadwyedd y drwydded, ond does neb wedi dweud wrthym ni fod yna unrhyw achos i gredu na fyddai gan ITV yng Nghymru unrhyw ddiddordeb mewn rhoi eu cyfrifoldebau darlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus o'r neilltu.

We don't have reason to believe that the commercial public service broadcasters are of that opinion. The ITV licence in Wales—Ofcom will be publishing a report and presenting it to the Secretary of State in June of next year on the sustainability of that licence, but nobody has said to us that there is any cause to believe that ITV in Wales wouldn't have any interest in setting aside their responsibilities in terms of public service broadcasting.

Dŷn ni mewn i'n dwy funud olaf. Carolyn, oedd gennych chi gwestiwn eithaf byr roeddech chi eisiau ei ofyn?

We're into our last two minutes. Carolyn, did you have a brief question that you wanted to ask?

Am I unmuted? It was regarding the proposed new rules on complementary public service media provision. What problem is Ofcom trying to fix, and how will the proposed solutions address this? Thanks.

Mae hi'n ymwneud â sicrhau bod dyfodiaid newydd yn cael lle yn yr amgylchedd ddarlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus a bod y system yn parhau i drawsnewid. Rŷn ni eisiau sicrhau bod y system yn gynaliadwy, ei fod e'n darparu ar gyfer cynulleidfaoedd dros y blynyddoedd nesaf, ond dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n bwysig nodi bod unrhyw newydd-ddyfodiad i mewn i'r system ddarlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus—bod yna arian newydd yn dod gyda fe, ein bod ni ddim yn cwtogi ar yr hyn sydd ar gael i'r darlledwyr presennol wrth groesawu chwaraewyr newydd i mewn i'r amgylchedd. Dyna'r broblem: sicrhau bod mwy o ddarparwyr, efallai, yn gallu mynd i'r afael â rhai o'r genres sydd ddim mor amlwg â hynny, efallai, a'n bod ni'n sicrhau bod yna gydweithio agos rhwng y darlledwyr.

It's about ensuring that new providers find a space in this environment of public service broadcasting and that the system continues to be transformed. We want to ensure that the system is sustainable, that it provides for audiences over the coming years, but I think that it is important to note that any new providers in this environment—that there is new funding that comes with those new providers, that we don't cut what is available to the current broadcasters in welcoming those new players into the environment. The issue is to ensure that there are more providers being able to provide some of the genres that aren't as prominent as that, perhaps, and that we then ensure that there is close collaboration between the broadcasters as well.

10:10

Diolch yn fawr iawn am hynna, Elinor. Mae'n flin gen i, ond rŷn ni mas o amser. Dŷn ni wedi cael lot o wybodaeth i mewn yn fanna. Bydd drafft o'r transgript yn cael ei ddanfon atoch chi; os allech chi wirio hynny, plis. Efallai bydd yna rai pethau y byddwn ni eisiau dal lan gyda chi arnyn nhw drwy lythyr, ond diolch yn fawr iawn ichi am ddod atom ni heddiw. Rwy'n siŵr byddwn ni mewn cysylltiad yn fuan iawn.

Aelodau, byddwn ni'n cymryd egwyl fach. Allaf i ofyn ein bod ni'n dod nôl erbyn chwarter wedi, os gwelwch yn dda? Byddwn ni'n symud i mewn i breifat yn ystod yr egwyl.

Thank you very much for that, Elinor. I'm sorry, but we've run out of time. We've heard a great deal of information. A draft of the transcript will be sent to you; if you could check that for accuracy. Perhaps there may be some things that we will want to catch up with you on via letter, but thank you very much for joining us today. I'm sure we'll be in touch very soon.

Members, we will take a short break now. Can I ask all of you to return by a quarter past, please? We will go into private during the break.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:10 a 10:20.

The meeting adjourned between 10:10 and 10:20.

10:20
3. Dyfodol cyfryngau gwasanaeth cyhoeddus: Darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus
3. Future of public service media: Public service broadcasters

Croeso nôl i'r sesiwn yma'r bore yma. Dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen at eitem 3, sef sesiwn gyda'r darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yng Nghymru. A gaf i ofyn i'r tystion plîs i gyflwyno'u hunain ar gyfer y Cofnod? Fe wnaf i fynd at Rhuanedd Richards yn gyntaf. 

Welcome back to this session this morning. We're moving on to item 3, which is a session with the public service broadcasters in Wales. May I ask the witnesses to introduce themselves for the Record please? I'll go to Rhuanedd Richards first. 

Helo. Bore da. Rhuanedd Richards ydw i, cyfarwyddwr gwasanaethau a chynnwys BBC Cymru. 

Good morning. I'm Rhuanedd Richards. I'm director of programmes and services for BBC Cymru Wales. 

Diolch, Rhuanedd. A Phil Henfrey. 

Thank you, Rhuanedd. Phil Henfrey. 

Bore da, a diolch am y gwahoddiad i ddod yma heddiw. 

Good morning. Thank you for the invitation to come here this morning. 

I'm Phil Henfrey. I'm the head of news and programmes at ITV Cymru Wales. 

Helo. Owen Evans. Diolch am y croeso. Prif weithredwr S4C. 

Hello. I'm Owen Evans. Thank you for the welcome. I'm the chief executive of S4C.

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am hynny. Mae gennym ni nifer fawr iawn o bynciau dŷn ni eisiau eu codi gyda chi'r bore yma. Felly, os gallwn ni ofyn am atebion mor fyr ag y maen nhw'n gallu bod, mor gryno â phosibl, ac fe wnaf i ofyn cwestiwn i gychwyn. Mae nifer—[Torri ar draws.]

Ydy e'n bosibl, plîs, os dŷch chi eisiau siarad, ichi jest godi llaw am nawr? Dŷch chi wedi cael eich 'mute-io'; mae hynny'n ffantastig.

Pa newidiadau o ran beth sydd wedi cael ei grybwyll yn ddiweddar gan Ofcom fydd yn fwyaf pellgyrhaeddol, yn fwyaf arwyddocaol ar gyfer cynulleidfaoedd yng Nghymru? Mi wnaf i fynd at Owen yn gyntaf. Na, mae Phil wedi rhoi ei law i fyny. Ocê, mi wnawn ni fynd at Phil, wedyn at Owen, a wedyn at Rhuanedd. Phil. 

Great. Thank you very much for that. We have a whole host of issues that we want to discuss with you this morning. So, if I could ask for responses that are as succinct as possible please, and I'll ask a question to begin with. A number—[Interruption.]

If it's possible, when you want to speak, would you just raise your hand physically, please? You've now been muted. That's excellent. Thank you.

What changes in terms of what has been proposed recently by Ofcom will be most far-reaching, most significant for audiences in Wales? I'll go to Owen first of all. No, I see that Phil has put his hand up. Right, we'll go to Phil, then to Owen, and then to Rhuanedd. 

I wasn't quite sure I put my hand up, but I'm quite happy to go first. Look, I think if we're to avoid a future where a search of content about Wales only delivers documentaries about marine mammals, then, in some ways, all of Ofcom's recommendations are important. For the reasons that this committee really understands, viewers in Wales are really heavily reliant on public service content to get information programming about the country they live in. And I think, in Ofcom's recommendations, whilst there are a lot of recommendations, one of the things that I was always particularly struck by is that, in today's digital age, public service content, like that created by ITV, is something that remains hugely important to viewers in Wales and, indeed, across the UK. Of course, the pandemic brought that into sharp relief. The fact is that we operate in a market that produces little or no content about Wales. So, ITV Cymru Wales's role in Welsh life is vital, in providing that plurarity to the BBC in news and current affairs, in both English and Welsh, and then bringing a mass audience to it. Our current mix of dramas, entertainment, sport, current affairs, news reaches 1.6 million people a week in Wales. That's a really big number in a country of three million people, and I think I'd probably also say that commercially funded public service broadcasting brings a different audience in Wales. ITV brings a different audience to public service content than, say, the BBC and S4C.

So, we're proud to be a PSB, and we want to continue to serve viewers in Wales, but we can't do it alone, and what Ofcom's report also highlighted is the rapid changes that are taking place in our sector. In the not too distant future, most content is going to be viewed online and on platforms that will be mostly controlled by a handful of local gatekeepers—gatekeepers that don't currently deliver content about Wales. So, in its recommendations, Ofcom, in my view, correctly concluded that the current outdated legislation covering public service broadcasting needs a radical update for this global online era. And so, in particular, I draw attention to the recommendations that will secure prominence, inclusion and fair value for public service content. And make no mistake, if commercially funded public service content is to continue to serve viewers in Wales to the extent it does now, then this intervention is needed. 

Diolch yn fawr. Buaswn i'n amlwg yn atgyfnerthu beth mae Phil wedi'i ddweud. Ond, o edrych ymlaen, mae patrymau gwylio yn newid. Mae ffordd pobl hŷn, wrth gwrs, yn dal i fod yn eithaf traddodiadol, ond mae ffordd pobl fy oedran i ac iau, a wedyn pobl ifanc iawn, yn wasgaredig iawn. Ac un o'r pethau sy'n anodd iawn i feddwl amdano at y dyfodol yw sut mae pobl yn mynd i ddod at gynnwys Cymreig, ac yn enwedig yn yr iaith Gymraeg yn y dyfodol. 

Mae Ofcom wedi gwneud jobyn da, rwy'n credu, o gwmpas yr EPG a llinol, ble maen nhw wedi gwneud yn siŵr bod ein brandiau ni fel PSBs yn weledol. Ond, i'r dyfodol, os gallwch chi ddychmygu byd ble dyw brandiau neu apiau neu deils S4C, BBC, ITV jest ddim ar gael i bobl, a bod y cwmnïau mawr—o'r Unol Daleithiau fel arfer, ond cawn ni weld beth ddigwyddiff yn Tsieina a llefydd fel hynny yn y byd, i ddod—yn golygu does dim siawns i bobl ffeindio cynnwys yn y lle cyntaf. Mae'r esiampl roedd Phil yn sôn amboutu, 'Do a search for 'Wales' and find marine mammals', yn hollol bosib yn y dyfodol. A beth dŷn ni'n ei weld hefyd yw bod yna gamau nawr ble gall y cwmnïau yma ddechrau cymryd drosodd jest snips bach o beth mae'r PSBs yn ei wneud yng Nghymru. A'r cwestiwn pwysig i wleidyddion wedyn yw, a yw'r snips yna'n ddigon o gynulleidfa? Achos fel y dywedodd Phil, mae pob un ohonom ni yma heddiw â chynulleidfaoedd cryf yng Nghymru heddiw, ond mae'n bosib, fesul cam, y gwnaiff y cwmnïau yma ein pellhau ni oddi wrth y gynulleidfa dŷn ni'n trio mynd ati.

Thank you very much. I would echo what Phil has said of course. But, looking forward, viewing patterns are changing. The way that older people still access broadcasting is quite traditional, but people my age and younger, and then very young people, are very diverse in their habits, and one of the things that's very difficult to think about for the future is how people are going to access Welsh content, particularly through the medium of Welsh in future. 

Ofcom has done a good job I think in terms of linear and the electronic programme guide, where they've ensured that our brands as PSBs are visible. But, in future, if you imagine a world where brands or tiles or apps for S4C, ITV and BBC are just not available to people, and that the major players—from the United States usually, but we'll see what happens with China as well—mean there is no opportunity for people to find the content in the first instance. And the example that Phil mentioned of, 'Do a search for 'Wales' and find marine mammals', might well be possible in future. And what we're now seeing is that there are areas where these corporations could take over just snippets of what the PSBs are doing in Wales. And the important question for politicians is, are those little snippets enough for the audience? Because, as Phil said, all of us here today have very strong audiences in Wales today, but, step by step, these major players might divorce us from the audiences that we are trying to reach.

10:25

Diolch am hwnna, Owen. Rhuanedd.

Thank you for that, Owen. Rhuanedd.

Mae yna berig i ni i gyd gytuno fan hyn. Ond mae yna nifer fawr, onid oes e, o'r newidiadau arfaethedig yma'n bwysig i gynulleidfaoedd Cymru, achos maen nhw'n ymwneud yn uniongyrchol â'r dewisiadau cynnwys a'r gwasanaethau sydd ar gael i bobl Cymru, ac yn ymwneud â sut mae cynulleidfaoedd Cymru, fel dywedodd Owen a Phil, yn medru dod o hyd i gynnwys sy'n adlewyrchu eu diddordebau nhw, eu ffordd nhw o fyw, a chynnwys sy'n berthnasol i'w bywydau nhw. Ac mae'r cyd-destun yn bwysig fan hyn: mae llwyddiant darlledu gwasanaeth cyhoeddus yn yr ynysoedd hyn yn destun cenfigen i'r byd. A dwi'n credu mai'r neges fan hyn yw bod y system bresennol o gyrff cyhoeddus yn gweithio ochr yn ochr â darparwyr masnachol yn gweithio'n dda i gynulleidfaoedd, ond mae angen trefn sydd wedi ei diwygio ar gyfer y farchnad fel ag y mae hi heddiw. Dŷn ni wedi sôn am y newid strwythurol enfawr dŷn ni'n ei weld yn y byd cyfryngol. Dŷn ni i gyd yn gallu sôn am ein straeon personol ni yn hynny o beth, a fy mhlant i hefyd—erbyn hyn ddim ond yn gwylio chwaraeon ar deledu llinol. Mae'r newid yn rhyfeddol, ac mae cynulleidfaoedd Cymru yn rhan o'r chwyldro yna, a dwi'n credu, yng nghanol y datblygiad cyffrous hwn, fod angen creu proses reoleiddio sy'n addas ac sy'n berthnasol, a dyna sy'n bwysig gyda hyn oll.

Well, there's a danger that we'll all be in agreement here. But there's a major number of these proposed changes that are important for the audiences in Wales, because they deal directly with the choices in terms of content in the services that are available for the people of Wales, and involved with how audiences in Wales, as Owen and Phil said, can access content that reflects their interests, their ways of living, and content that's relevant to their lives. And the context is important here: the success of PSBs on these isles is a cause of envy across the world. And I think the message here is that the current system of public bodies working side by side with commercial providers does work well for audiences, but we need a system that has been reformed for the market as it currently is. We've talked about the major structural change that we're seeing in the media world. We can talk about our own personal experiences in that regard—my children too; they only watch sport on linear television. The change is vast, and audiences in Wales are part of that revolution. And I think that, amongst this exciting development, we need to create a regulatory process that is appropriate and relevant, and that's what's important with all of this.

Fe wnawn ni symud nawr at Alun Davies. Roedd e eisiau dod i mewn ar hyn, ac fe wnawn ni symud at ei gwestiynau fe nawr.

We'll move now to Alun Davies. He wants to come in on this, and so we'll move to his questions as well.

I just want to challenge you on that, Rhuanedd. You sound very comfortable in what you're saying, and I don't understand the reason for your comfort. We all have different identities. I speak English and I speak Welsh, and, in terms of my Welsh language identity, we have a range of programming available to us. I watch S4C and listen to news services in Welsh provided by the BBC, and some of the stuff that ITV has done in Welsh as well—especially in the past, frankly. But as an English-speaking Welshman, I don't get any of that, do I? I'm pretty poorly served as an English-speaking Welshman—my cultural identity is not served by either ITV or BBC. There's some good programming produced. I'm not knocking the programming; there's some good programming. I enjoyed the programme, Rhuanedd, last night on the depths of the Celtic sea—terrifying, and I thought it was just me that looked like that in the water. [Laughter.] But it's the exception not the rule. There's not very much genre and tv produced in Wales that is outside of sport and news and current affairs, and my guess is—I haven't got the numbers to hand—that it's reduced over the years. And I don't understand where your comfort here comes from, because, as somebody who wants to see an English-language identity reflected on the screens, I don't see it.

Do you know what, I'm with you all the way about the importance of that identity being reflected on the screens. I grew up—

—listening to Wales Today and Radio Wales, in an English-speaking household, learnt Welsh later, and realised the importance of Radio Cymru, S4C, to my whole identity. But I would dispute that—the amount of content we're making for English-language audiences has in fact increased. We're getting 70 per cent of that content now actually to the network, and, in doing so, we're enjoying larger audiences to some of that content than ever before. This year alone, the requests to the iPlayer for our content has doubled compared to that of last year. Does that mean there isn't a challenge? It absolutely doesn't; there's a huge challenge. I completely accept that. It is probably the biggest audience challenge any of us has ever faced before as broadcasters. I think what I'm saying, though, is that these challenges are not insurmountable. I think it's absolutely—

Why don't you surmount them, then? I agree with you, Rhuanedd, in what you're saying. And, as I said, you and Phil produce excellent English-language programming and I've got no criticism to make of it. In fact, my criticism is that I want to see more of it. If I didn't like what you're producing, I'd say, 'Produce less of it'. I want to see more of it, a greater range, a broader range of genre available and, as was the programming last night in fact, at a reasonable time. We all know that a lot of good programming that is produced by both broadcasters is put up against Eastenders or Coronation Street, or whatever it happens to be, and it isn't the prime time. So, I think the challenge that I'm placing back to you—because I think we should have regulation, and I'm sure that some would say that any level of regulation will mean that we walk away from the EPG, and we've heard that before—is that we also need you to step up to the mark.

10:30

And my commitment to you is to fight for more programming and more content for our English-language audiences. I hope you'd expect that of me as director of content for BBC Wales. Listen, the discussions that I'm at at the moment within the BBC—. The BBC is shifting £700 million extra out of London for production between now and 2026. What that offers is a huge opportunity for me to work with the network to commission new drama, new comedy, new factual series, and we're in the process of doing that now. And hopefully, we'll have some exciting offers to announce in the near future.

But I can assure you that there is no complacency here. I want depth, I want breadth, but, in the middle of all of that, what I also need is prominence. I need prominence within BBC products for BBC Wales content, and there's obviously an ongoing discussion about how we tailor those products to ensure that they're more personalised and can respond to the needs of the nations. But in addition, we need a regulatory framework that allows prominence for our content on those big major platforms, which is what we're discussing today, and that can only be a good thing.

I completely take the point that Alun is making, and I think the point that Alun is making is that we want to see more. It's not that Wales isn't well served by television channels, for example—there are literally hundreds of commercially available television channels in Wales that viewers can access. But there's only one ITV that's actually producing any content for Wales. And I think it demonstrates quite closely that the market is not going to, in a sense, answer the question. It is not going to be able to deliver. It doesn't deliver now for Wales. If you then look to a future where, increasingly the market is dominated by global players who are looking to do deals with global brands to monetise global audiences, the likelihood of that happening via the market is less likely. So, I think Ofcom is looking at this and is basically saying, 'Okay, so what needs to happen?' and it's come up with a series of recommendations. And, of course, prominence and inclusion are really important in that. As audiences move to these new platforms, it's really important that they're able to find content about Wales the country and not whales the marine mammal.

But one thing I would want to add in here as well—because there are a lot of recommendations being made by Ofcom—is that if you had to achieve one of these, then the ability to set fair terms and fair value is really, really important. The reality is that, as I say, these are global brands doing global business for global audiences. And in this context, the dispute resolution role proposed by Ofcom is very, very important. What Ofcom is saying in its detail is that, in designing the framework on settling any disputes, a key consideration should be that the terms offered by any platform are consistent with the sustainable delivery of PSB. Now, nobody's got a monopoly on creating PSB, but what that's basically saying is that Welsh viewers are heavily reliant on public service content. There are literally hundreds of television channels available to audiences in Wales now, but few, if any, carry any Welsh content. And so, from our perspective, you can't understate the importance of the dispute resolution mechanism, because it puts the sustainable delivery of PSB as the most important consideration in a new regime. That's really, really important as an underpinning for what you want to see, Alun, which is more content about Wales.

Mae Owen eisiau dod i mewn fan hyn hefyd.

Owen wants to come in here as well.

10:35

Mae lot o hwn yn dod nôl i gyllido. Dŷn ni mewn sefyllfa o fflycs heddiw, dwi'n credu. O ran beth sydd wedi digwydd efo Ofcom, the bus has moved on, rili. Mae trafodaethau nawr amboutu, 'How do you enact this', trwy DCMS, ond mae'r cyllido yn dal i fod yn rhywbeth pwysig. Dŷn ni a'r BBC nawr yn dadlau am setliad ffi drwydded. Mae hwnna'n mynd lan â ni at 2027. Pwy a ŵyr beth fydd yn ei le wedi hynny? Pwy a ŵyr beth fydd yn digwydd efo Channel 4, lle mae trafodaeth o gwmpas preifateiddio hwnna? A hefyd mae'n rhaid inni gofio pobl fel ITV. Os nad ydyn nhw'n cael yr hawliau maen nhw'n eu cael fel PSB, sef yr access a'r prominence a phethau fel hynny, wedyn a yw ITV yn y dyfodol actually yn mynd i wario pres ar gynnwys sydd yn berthnasol iawn i Gymru a ddim yn berthnasol iawn i ITV yn Llundain a'r llefydd fel hynny? Achos un o'r pethau sydd yn wir yng Nghymru yw mai S4C yw'r unig ddarlledwr cyhoeddus Cymreig, ac mae'r gweddill i gyd yn ddarlledwyr Prydeinig sydd yn darlledu yng Nghymru. Ac felly, mae yna ddadl, actually, am y math o setliad bydd cwmnïau yn ei gael yn y dyfodol, a'r ffordd mae'r system yn gweithio ac yn cefnogi'r PSBs, am sut fath o amgylchedd cynnwys a darlledu, a lledaenu dros lwyfannau digidol, fydd yn bodoli yng Nghymru yn y dyfodol.

A lot of this comes back to funding. We are in a situation of flux today, I think. As to what's happened with Ofcom, the bus has moved on, really. The discussions now are about how you enact this with DCMS, but the funding is still very important. We and the BBC are now debating the licence fee settlement. That takes us to 2027. Who knows what will be in place after that? Who knows what will happen with Channel 4, where there's discussion about privatisation? And also we have to remember ITV. If they don't receive the rights that they have as a PSB—the access and prominence, and so on—is ITV going to be spending money on content that is very relevant to Wales and not very relevant to ITV in London and places like that? Because one of the things that is true in Wales is that S4C is the only Welsh public broadcaster, and the others are British broadcasters that broadcast in Wales. So, there is an argument about the settlement companies receive in future and how the system works and supports the PSBs regarding what kind of content and broadcast environment, and transmission environment across the digital platforms, will exist in future.

Cyn inni fynd nôl at Alun, roedd Rhuanedd eisiau dod nôl mewn—yn gryno, os yn bosib, achos dŷn ni'n brin iawn o amser.

Before we come back to Alun, Rhuanedd wanted to come in—but briefly, if possible.

Yn gryno iawn, ie. Rwy'n cytuno o ran yr hinsawdd arianol—mae'n allweddol, ac mae'n allweddol i ni yma yng Nghymru. Mae pobl yn meddwl am y ffi drwydded mewn cyd-destun Prydeinig; mae hi'n hanfodol ar gyfer dyfodol ein gwasanaethau Saesneg a Chymraeg yma yng Nghymru hefyd. A dyna pam dwi jest eisiau rhoi gair, efallai, o rybudd am un o'r argymhellion, sef y syniad o greu mwy o ddarparwyr yn y maes gwasanaethau cyhoeddus a phe byddai hynny'n dod o'r ffi drwydded. Mae Ofcom ei hunan yn cydnabod, er mwyn cystadlu gyda'r darparwyr mawr yma, fod angen sefydliadau o raddfa uchel sydd â thipyn o swmp yn perthyn iddyn nhw er mwyn cystadlu'n effeithiol. Ac mae jest rhaid bod yn ofalus, dwi'n meddwl, rhag ofn ein bod ni'n creu llawer o ddarparwyr ond dŷn ni'n methu â chystadlu gyda'r bobl eraill yn y farchnad sydd ar y raddfa fwy yma.

Yes, very briefly. I agree in terms of the financial climate—it's vital and it's vital for us here in Wales. People think about the licence fee in a British context, but it's vital for the future of services through the medium of Welsh and English here in Wales too. And that's why I wanted to give a word of warning, perhaps, about the one of the recommendations, namely the idea of creating more providers in the sphere of PSBs and whether that would come from the licence fee. Ofcom itself acknowledges that, in order to compete with these major providers, we need organisations that are of a large scale and have weight behind them, so that they can compete effectively. So, I think we need to be careful lest we create many providers that can't compete with the other players in the market that are on that larger scale.

Ie, a dwi'n deall y neges, Rhuanedd, amboutu'r drwydded. Ond gaf i ofyn Mr Evans amboutu'r drwydded? Dŷch chi'n rhannu eich cyllid nawr gyda'r BBC trwy'r drwydded. Fel darlledwr, ac fel prif weithredwr—ac efallai fod gyda chi fwy o ryddid nawr eich bod chi wedi datgan eich bod chi'n gadael y darlledwr—ydych chi wedi gweld, o ran eich annibyniaeth, fod yna broblemau wedi bod yn y ffordd dŷch chi'n cynllunio y penderfyniadau golygyddol dŷch chi'n eu gwneud fel darlledwr oherwydd bod y cyllid yn dod trwy'r drwydded yn lle dod yn uniongyrchol o DCMS?

Yes, and I understand that message, Rhuanedd, about the licence fee. May I ask Mr Evans about the licence? You share your funding now with the BBC, through the licence fee. So, as a broadcaster, and as a chief executive—perhaps you have more freedom now that you have said that you are leaving the broadcaster—have you seen your independence become problematic in the way that you plan and make the editorial decisions that you do as a broadcaster because the funding comes through the licence fee rather than directly from DCMS?

'Naddo' yw'r ateb syml. Ond dwi'n credu mai un o'r pethau pwysicaf, i ddechrau, wnaethon ni oedd, pan wnaeth y Llywodraeth yn Llundain benderfynu bod S4C yn mynd i gael ei gyllido yn hollol trwy'r ffi drwydded, fe wnaethon ni ofynion eithaf cryf i'r Gweinidog bryd hynny, a gweision sifil fanna, fel bod proses ar wahân i S4C i drafod cyllid y dyfodol. Achos beth roedd S4C yn becso amdano oedd ein bod ni'n rhyw fath o sub-item mas o'r dadleuon buasai'r BBC yn eu rhoi. Ac, wrth gwrs, mae'r BBC ac S4C nawr yn cystadlu am yr un pres, ac mae'n rhaid inni gyfaddef hynny. Felly, wrth gwrs bydd y BBC eisiau gwneud yn siŵr bod eu sleisen nhw o'r pei yn fwy na'n sleisen ni. Ond, mae'n bwysig, ac un o'r pethau dwi'n falch amdano yw bod Gweinidogion yn Llundain wedi cymryd y ddadl y dylid cael trafodaeth ar wahân i S4C, a dyna pam y gwnaeth S4C roi ei gynllun ei hun i mewn i'r Llywodraeth, a gwnaeth y BBC roi eu cynllun nhw ar wahân i mewn. Felly, pan gawn ni ddatganiad, gobeithio yn y mis nesaf—

'No' is the simple answer. But I think one of the most important things that we did in the beginning was when the Government in London decided that S4C was going to be funded entirely through the licence fee, we set out clear asks of the Government and its civil servants so that there would be a separate process for S4C to discuss funding in future. Because what S4C was concerned about was that we would be a kind of sub-item in the debates that the BBC would have. And, of course, the BBC and S4C are now competing for the same funding, and we have to admit that. Therefore, of course, the BBC ensures that their slice of the pie is bigger than ours. But it's important, and one of the things that I'm very pleased about is that Ministers in London did take that argument on board as regards having a separate discussion for S4C, and that's why S4C set out its own plan for the Government, and the BBC submitted its plan separately. So, when we get a statement, hopefully in the next month—

Sori, dwi eisiau dod nôl atoch chi, Rhuanedd; dŷn ni'n brin o amser y bore yma. Dwi ddim yn credu ei bod hi'n gyfrinach, ond pan oeddwn i'n gweithio i S4C, roeddwn i'n dadlau am y set-up yma, achos roeddwn i'n meddwl ei fod e'n cynnig mwy o sicrwydd i S4C, so dwi'n falch iawn o glywed eich geiriau. Ond, roedd y tri ohonoch chi hefyd, pan oeddech chi'n ateb cwestiwn blaenorol Delyth, wedi sôn am due prominence—yr amlygrwydd yma—a sut mae hynny'n newid. Yn yr hen ddyddiau, wrth gwrs, roedd pobl yn sôn ambout EPGs a pha rif oedd pob darlledwr ar yr EPG. Ond, fel roeddwn i’n dweud with Ofcom o’r blaen, dwi’n defnyddio’r ffôn symudol fan hyn, a dwi’n defnyddio aps yr un mor aml ag ydw i’n defnyddio’r EPG. Dwi’n cytuno gyda chi, gyda llaw, fod angen hyn ar y darlledwyr, ond sut ydych chi’n gweld bod hynny yn mynd i ddigwydd mewn byd ble dydy’r newidiadau yma ddim ar fin digwydd, ond wedi bod? 

Sorry, I just wanted to come back to you, Rhuanedd, as we are short of time. I don't think it's a secret, but, when I worked for S4C, I was arguing for this set-up, because I thought it would provide greater assurance for S4C, so I was very pleased to hear your comments on that. But the three of you, when you responded to Delyth's previous question, mentioned due prominence and how that is changing. In the old days, of course, people were talking about the EPGs and what number each broadcaster had on the EPG. But, as I was saying to Ofcom before, I use my mobile phone and I use apps more often than I do the EPG. I agree with you, by the way, that the broadcasters need this, but how do you see that those broadcasters will have that prominence when these changes aren't about to happen but have already happened?

10:40

Alla i ofyn am atebion eithaf cryno, plîs, achos bydd rhaid i ni symud ymlaen ar ôl hyn i Aelod arall—os ydy hynny'n bosibl; dwi'n gwybod bod hwn yn gwestiwn mawr? Pwy sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf? Owen.

Can I ask for succinct answers, if possible, because we'll have to move on after this to another Member? But I know that this is a huge question. Who wants to go first? Owen.

Dwi’n credu ei bod hi’n hanfodol. Mae rhywfaint o wylio ar draws ffôns, ond mae lot o wylio yn dal yn digwydd dros y prif sgrin—trwy aps, trwy Netflix, trwy beth bynnag. Beth ffeindion ni mas pan oedden ni ar yr EPG yn isel lawr oedd bod mynd lan tua 30 lle yn yr EPG yn codi faint o bobl oedd yn eich gwylio chi, achos roeddech chi’n weledol. Nawr, yn yr un ffordd, pan fyddwch chi’n pigo lan remote control, mae Netflix, mae Amazon, does dim BBC, does dim ITV, does dim S4C. Rydych chi’n troi’r teledu ymlaen a rhoi’r smart tv ymlaen, ac mae rhestr o aps. Mae rhywun yn dewis ble mae’r aps yna’n mynd, ac os nad yw S4C, os nad yw'r BBC, os nad yw ITV yn y rhestr yna yn amlwg, mae pobl yn mynd i ddewis rhywbeth arall, ac felly mae hi’n hollol bwysig bod yr hawl gan y PSBs i gael eu aps nhw ar y dyfeisiadau yma, ond hefyd gyda'r un math o prominence ag sydd ar gael ar EPGs, neu bydd pobl jest yn camu heibio i ni.

Ac rydyn ni’n cael y broblem, fel S4C a’r iaith Gymraeg, ble mae ein cyllid ni’n gymharol fach o'i gymharu ag ITV a’r BBC, ble allwn ni ddim fforddio heddiw rhoi ein ap ni ar bob math o deledu a phob math o declyn. A beth mae hynny'n meddwl yw bod pobl yn gorfod mynd drwy web browser, ac mae hynny’n boen yn y pen ôl. Felly, mae jest yr her fach yna i wylio’n cynnwys ni yn meddwl y bydd pobl yn troi bant, ac felly mae’n hollol bwysig i ni ein bod ni’n cael yr amlygrwydd yma i’r dyfodol.

I think it's vital. There is a degree of viewership over phones, but a great deal of viewership happens over on the main television screen—through apps, through Netflix, and so on. What we discovered, when we were lower down the EPG, was that going up 30 places on the EPG increased the number of people who watched your services, because you were visible. In the same way, when you pick up the remote control, Netflix and Amazon are there, but BBC, S4C and ITV aren't there. When you turn the smart tv on, there's a list of apps. Somebody picks where those apps go, and if S4C, ITV and BBC aren't on that list and aren't prominent on that list, then people will choose something else. So, it's vital that the PSBs have the right to have their apps on these devices, but with the same kind of prominence as is given in the EPG, or people are just going to walk on by.

And we have the problem, as S4C and with the Welsh language, where our funding is relatively small as compared to ITV and the BBC, and we can't afford today to place our app on all kinds of devices and all kinds of televisions. And what that means is that people have to go through web browsers, and that's a pain in the backside. So, just having that challenge as regards viewing our content means that people will go elsewhere. It's vital, therefore, that we have that prominence in future.

I think it’s almost coming back to the point that I’ve already made—it's about thinking that, in a world where television is consumed over television channels via the aerial, a viewer could find the television channels and the PSBs were prominent within that environment. And really what Ofcom is basically saying is that in a world where it won’t just be via the television aerial or via the satellite, but also via online and via new, future ways of consuming television content, PSB content should be similarly prominent on those platforms. And that’s at the heart of Ofcom’s recommendations.

But I come back to the point, too, that inclusion and prominence of themselves are not enough. You also have to be able to negotiate fair terms, so that recommendation that Ofcom is making, that dispute resolution mechanism—. Because if you've got a dominant platform that says, 'Yes we'll make you prominent, yes we'll include you, but here are our terms', and the terms that they state mean that it would be very, very difficult for you to sustain, say, programming for Wales, what is the point of the prominence and the inclusion? So, it's really, really important in the Welsh context, because of the market forces that operate in Wales, that there is this dispute resolution. So, if there is a provider saying, 'We will commit, such as ITV currently does, to producing news for the next 10 years for audiences in Wales', that becomes a factor in any negotiation that a company like ITV might have with a global platform, in terms of the terms for the prominence and the inclusion. I can’t overstate it enough; it’s really important.

Ocê, diolch, Phil. Rhuanedd.

Thank you, Phil. Rhuanedd.

Mi wna i addo cadw hyn yn fyr, achos dwi ddim eisiau ailadrodd, ond y gwir amdani yw bod yna ddarogan y bydd y cwmnïau mawr technolegol yma sydd eisoes yn gyfrifol am gynnwys hefyd yn cynhyrchu teledu dros y blynyddoedd nesaf yma. Nhw fydd yn rheoli’r cynnwys felly. Ydych chi’n meddwl o ddifri y byddan nhw'n ystyried anghenion y Gymraeg yn hynny, neu anghenion darlledu cyhoeddus yng Nghymru? Na. A dyna pam mae angen y ddeddfwriaeth yma. Nawr, dŷn ni fel y BBC ddim yn mynd i ddweud wrth y cwmnïau yma sut yn union ddylai hyn edrych, boed fel teil neu ap neu beth bynnag, ond sicrhau ei fod e'n amlwg, ei fod e'n flaenllaw yw'r nod, a dyna pam mae hyn mor bwysig.

I promise to keep this short, because I don't want to repeat what's already been said, but the truth is that there are forecasts that the major technological companies that are already responsible for content will also generate television content over the coming years. They'll control and manage the content. So, do you think seriously think that they would consider the needs of the Welsh language in that, or the needs of public service broadcasting in Wales? No. And that's why we need this legislation. Now, we as the BBC aren't going to tell these companies how they should look, be that a tile or an app or whatever, but our aim is to ensure that it is visible and prominent, and that's why this is so important.

10:45

Ocê. Yn anffodus, bydd rhaid inni symud ymlaen neu fydd dim amser i'r pynciau eraill, ond diolch yn fawr iawn am hynny. Fe wnawn ni symud at Heledd Fychan.

Okay. Unfortunately, we will have to move on or we won't have any time for the other topics that we want to discuss, but thank you for that. We'll move to Heledd Fychan.

Diolch. Dwi'n meddwl yn sicr y byddwn i â diddordeb cael mwy o amser, o ran setliad y ffi drwydded ac ati, i gael sesiwn iawn efo chi a deall rhai o'r heriau fel ariannu. Yn sicr, o'r pethau rydych chi'n dweud, efo amlygrwydd hefyd, mae pethau fel cyllidebau sydd ar gael i chi o ran hysbysebu a bod y gwasanaethau yma ar gael hefyd—ddim jest lle ydych chi—yn her fawr er mwyn i bobl wybod beth sydd ar gael felly. Y mwayf o glics fydd pobl angen eu gwneud i ganfod, wel, rydyn ni'n gwybod bod hynna'n creu problemau.

Dwi eisiau gofyn ichi jest bach yn fwy am amlygrywdd fan yna. O ran yr heriau efallai rydych chi wedi'u hwynebau hyd yma, o'r adroddiad yma, ydych chi'n gweld bod unrhyw beth mae Ofcom yn ei argymell fan hyn yn mynd i wella pethau a'ch cefnogi chi efo hynny? Oherwydd mae'r onus yn dal i fod arnoch chi, felly, i drio cael yr amlygrwydd, o beth dwi'n ei ddarllen efo'r adroddiad. Ydych chi'n gweld bod hyn yn mynd i helpu efo hynna, neu fuasech chi'n hoffi gweld Ofcom yn mynd yn bellach o ran eich cefnogi chi?

Thank you. Certainly, I think that I would have be interested, in relation to the licence fee settlement, in having a full session with you on that in order to understand some of the challenges regarding funding. From what you've said, also as regards prominence, things such as the budgets available to you for advertising and having those services available—it's not just about where you are—are a major challenge in terms of people knowing what's available. So, the more clicks that people need to do to find content, we know that that creates problems.

I just wanted to ask you a little bit more about the prominence in that regard. In terms of the challenges, perhaps, that you've faced to date, from this report, do you see that anything that Ofcom is recommending here is going to improve the situation and support you with that prominence? Because the onus is still on you, isn't it, to try to secure that prominence, from what I read in the report. Do you consider that this is going to improve the situation, or would you like to see Ofcom going further to support you?

Pwy sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf ar hwnna? Owen.

Who wants to start on that? Owen.

Diolch. Advice yw hwn. Mae Ofcom yn rhoi'r neges i DCMS yn gryf fod angen rhoi pethau yn eu lle i gefnogi'r system fel mae e, neu fe aiff e. Dwi ddim yn credu bod dadl fanna. Y cwestiwn mawr—a dyma'r pwynt roeddwn i'n ei wneud gynnau—yw that bus has left. Maen nhw wedi cynnig hwn. Ble mae'r ddadl yn digwydd heddiw yw yn swyddfeydd yn Whitehall ac am sut maen nhw'n mynd i ddeddfu'r flwyddyn nesaf i wireddu beth mae Ofcom yn dweud. Ac efallai buaswn i'n fflipio'r cwestiwn. Dŷn ni'n cytuno, dwi'n credu, ar draws ITV, BBC, Channel 5, Channel 4—mae'r cwbl lot ohonon ni'n unllais yn y ffaith ein bod ni'n cefnogi beth mae Ofcom yn trio gwneud fan hyn. Y cwestiwn wedyn yw—. Mae deddfu'n anodd. Mae deddfu'n gymhleth. A bydd y cwestiwn am ba mor bell fydd DCMS yn mynd i wireddu beth mae Ofcom wedi ei gynnig fan hyn. Dyna'r cwestiwn, efallai, y buaswn i'n canolbwyntio arno. Y rheswm mae Phil yn rili pwysleisio pa mor bwysig mae'r offeryn dispute resolution yma yw, os na fyddan nhw'n cael y ddeddfwriaeth yn iawn, y gallai hwn droi mewn i bicil mawr. Ac, wrth gwrs, y bobl sydd yn tueddu i ennill yn y picil yna fydd y cwmnïau mawr, sydd yn barod yn eu hanterth. Felly, i fi, dwi yn credu bod beth mae Ofcom yn ei gynnig yn ddigon, ond mae e rili yn dibynnu ar sut mae DCMS nawr yn gwireddu beth mae Ofcom yn ei gynnig.

Thank you. This is advice. Ofcom has given DCMS the message relatively strongly that things need to be put in place to support the system as it is or as it will go. There's no doubt about that. The major issue—and this is the point I was making earlier—is that that bus has left. They've proposed this. What the debate is today, in offices in Whitehall, is how they're going to legislate next year to achieve what Ofcom has set out. I think I would flip the question. I think we all agree, across ITV, BBC, Channel 5, Channel 4—all of us are united in that we support what Ofcom is trying to do here. But the question is—. Legislating is difficult. Legislation is complex. So, the question will be how far DCMS goes to achieve what Ofcom has proposed. That's the question that I would be focusing on. The reason that Phil emphasised the importance of the dispute resolution mechanism is that if we don't get the legislation right, this could turn into a huge mess, and, of course, the people who tend to win in that resolution process are the major corporations. So, for me, I think what Ofcom is proposing is sufficient, but it really does depend on how DCMS implements what has been proposed.

Byddwn i'n cytuno â hynny. Mae'n gwneud synnwyr, onid yw e, fod cynnyrch ein gwasanaethau yn fwy amlwg, yn fwy weledol ac yn hawdd i'w ganfod.

Ond gaf i bigo lan, efallai, ar gwestiwn gwnaethoch chi ofyn i Ofcom yn y sesiwn flaenorol? Un lle dwi'n meddwl oedd yn ddiffygiol efallai yn yr adroddiad—ac mae Ofcom wedi cydnabod hynny'n llwyr, a bod yn deg, ac mae yna adolygiad arall arno fe—yw radio, ac amlygrwydd o ran radio a gwasanaethau sain, sydd eto mor bwysig i gynulleidfaoedd Cymru. A dwi'n credu ei bod hi'n iawn i chi ac i ni godi hyn fel rhan o'r ymchwiliad yma, achos mae ganddo'r un heriau, yr un materion â sy'n wynebu'r diwydiant teledu, a bod yn onest, a gyda fy nghefndir i yn Radio Cymru, dwi'n ymwybodol iawn o hynny. Mae'n hollbwysig bod ein gwasanaethau radio ni yn weladwy ar yr un dechnoleg yma ac yn amlwg i'r gynulleidfa hefyd. Ac wrth ichi ystyried rhai o'r datblygiadau o ran radio yn y car a gwrando yn y car, teclynnau gwrando fel seinyddion clyfar ac yn y blaen, mae'n bwysig nad ŷn ni'n anghofio pwysigrwydd radio yn y sgwrs yma.

I would agree with that. It makes sense, doesn't it, that our content should have greater prominence and be more visible and easier to find.

To pick up on a question that you asked Ofcom in the previous session, one area that was deficient in the report—and Ofcom has acknowledged this entirely, to be fair, and there's another review of it—is radio, and prominence in terms of radio and audio services, which are also important to audiences in Wales. And I think it's right for you and us to raise this as part of this inquiry, because there are the same challenges and same issues arising as are faced by the television industry, and with my background in Radio Cymru, I'm very aware of those issues. It's vitally important that our radio services are visible on this same technology and are prominent for the audience. And when you consider some of the developments in terms of car radio and listening in the car, and of devices such as smart devices, smart speakers and so on, it's important that we don't forget the importance of radio in this debate.

Phil, oedd unrhyw beth roeddech chi eisiau ei ychwanegu?

Phil, was there anything you wanted to add?

I think I've used, in previous hearings, the sort of tsunami metaphor, and I think there's a real temptation in these debates that we can focus on very small detail. All detail is important, of course it is, but the way it's been characterised is that sometimes in this debate we are the equivalent of picking up litter off the beach, and really what we need to be doing is looking up and seeing the tsunami coming towards us that is about to wipe away the beach. And in answer to the question, 'Will Ofcom's recommendations protect public service broadcasting from this tsunami?', ultimately, it remains to be seen. But you could answer it the other way around and say, 'Well, if nothing is done, I think you can safely say that the global giants will be just fine.' Will that serve viewers in Wales? Yes, it will, of course. These global giants will be available to viewers in Wales. They will produce content that will be consumed by people in Wales, but will that be content that reflects the lives of people in Wales? Will that be information that is relevant to them in a Welsh context? I think that is less likely.

And so, Ofcom's recommendations are—. At the heart of this is that what public service broadcasting does right now really matters to people in Wales, and Ofcom has come up with a new proposal for a new regulatory framework, which should enable viewers in Wales to continue to get content about Wales that matters in their lives. Is it enough? In some ways, time will tell, but if none of this happens, or if we don't do enough or if we don't pass enough of the recommendations, as Owen is saying, then there's real jeopardy in the future, and you can't overstate that enough. It's not very often I think that all of the PSBs, whether commercially funded, licence-fee funded, whether they create content for viewers in Wales or not, are really united around the jeopardy that's in front of us, and that something needs to be done. Ofcom has come up with this report and, as Owen is saying, it is now for the UK Government to enact legislation. There can be a gap between what Ofcom has recommended and what actually happens in legislation. As a committee, you're a voice for Wales in this, and it's really, really important that Wales's voice is heard within this, because we are constantly talking about global audiences and the globalisation of television, and there's a real danger that Wales's voice gets lost in this.

10:50

And to a certain—and I will come back to Heledd, and I know that Rhuanedd wants to add something too, but lots of what—. These discussions could be happening, and there's a danger that the kinds of questions that could be asked could be asked anywhere in the world, but what you've just been saying, Phil, is going to be so centrally important in terms of how it affects Wales and Welsh audiences, and the idiosyncratic ways in which those dynamics play out. So, this is certainly something that we're going to be keeping a really close eye on.

Rhuanedd, dwi'n gwybod roeddech chi eisiau dod mewn, ond, Heledd, dwi'n gwybod—. Dŷn ni dros hanner ffordd mewn i'n sesiwn nawr. Heledd, allaf i ddod yn ôl atoch chi ac wedyn, Rhuanedd, efallai byddwch chi'n gallu pigo lan y ddau beth ar yr un pryd, os yw hynny'n ocê? Heledd.

Rhuanedd, I know that you wanted to come in, but, Heledd—. We're over halfway into our session now. Heledd, can I come back to you and then, Rhuanedd, perhaps you could pick up both points, if that's okay? Heledd.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. A dwi'n cytuno 100 y cant, Rhuanedd, o ran radio hefyd; dwi'n meddwl bod angen edrych ar ddarlledu yn ei gyfanrwydd o ran hyn. Gan fod Owen yma ac wedi sôn ynglŷn â'r heriau sydd fwyaf presennol yn hytrach na hynna, roeddwn i jest eisiau cymryd y cyfle, o ran y cyhoeddiad ddoe efo Amazon a'r botwm coch, ac o ran bod yn darparu sylwebaeth yn y Gymraeg, i gael ymateb S4C o ran hynny. Ydy o'n bryder i chi ei fod o'n gosod cynsail i ddarlledwyr eraill? Ydy o'n peryglu dyfodol S4C o gwbl? Dwi wedi gweld ymateb cymysg iawn ar y we a gweld S4C yn croesawu hyn. Byddwn i jest yn hoffi cael eich ymateb chi, oherwydd rŷn ni'n siarad ynglŷn ag un o'r platforms mawr yn fan hyn.

Thank you very much. And I agree 100 per cent, Rhuanedd, in terms of radio too; I think we need to look at broadcasting in its entirety. As Owen is here and just talked about the challenges that are most pressing, I just wanted to take this opportunity, in terms of the announcement yesterday by Amazon on the red button, in terms of providing commentary through the medium of Welsh, I just wanted to ask for S4C's response on that. Is it a concern that it sets a precedent for other broadcasters? Does it endanger the future of S4C at all? I have seen a very mixed response on the internet and I've seen S4C welcoming this. I would like to hear your response, because we're talking about one of these major platforms, aren't we?

Ocê, diolch. Yn gyntaf, a yw S4C yn croesawu hyn? Na, dydyn ni blydi ddim, i fod yn onest. Na, yn bendant dydyn ni ddim, ac am sawl rheswm, actually. Y rheswm gyntaf yw—. A dyma pam mae pethau'n gymhleth. Mae hon yn esiampl dda mewn microcosm o beth sy'n digwydd mas fanna. Mae chwaraeon yn bwysig i S4C achos mae chwaraeon yn dod â thyrfa mawr mewn i'r sianel—rydyn ni'n cael lot o wylwyr—ac mae e'n siawns inni i groes-hyrwyddo rhaglenni S4C i bobl sydd, yn aml iawn, ddim yn cyffwrdd â'r iaith Gymraeg yn aml iawn. Felly, rydyn ni yn plygio rhaglenni plant ac rydyn ni yn plygio rhaglenni dysgwyr i bobl sydd yn dod mewn i'r sianel i wylio chwaraeon. Ac felly, mae chwaraeon a chael y hawliau sydd yn draddodiadol wedi dod atom ni drwy gwmnïau fel Sky a phobl fel hynny wedi bod yn werthfawr iawn. Ond maen nhw'n dangos llwyddiant yr iaith Gymraeg ambell waith achos mae yna lot o bobl yn eu gweld.

Beth mae Amazon wedi ei wneud fan hyn—a phwy sy'n eu beio nhw fel cwmni preifat—yw ein bod ni wedi cael cynulleidfaoedd da i'w gwylio fel hyn ac felly dydyn nhw ddim eisiau siario nhw ac felly maen nhw wedi penderfynu, 'Na, rydyn ni'n mynd i gymryd hwn y tu ôl i paywall.' Ac felly dwi'n meddwl ei fod e'n gam nôl i feddwl bod—. I ni yng Nghymru, gallwn ni ddadlau, 'This is one of the crown jewels', ond nawr bydd pobl yn gorfod talu i weld Cymru yn chwarae yn y gemau rhyngwladol dros yr hydref.

Nawr, yn y dyfodol, dyma Amazon yn penderfynu, 'Reit, rydyn ni'n mynd i gynnig rhaglen yn Gymraeg.' Beth mae'n nhw'n ei wneud yw jest rhewi ni allan o'r gyfundrefn draddodiadol sydd efo ni, a dyma jest esiampl fach o beth sy'n debygol o ddigwydd yn y blynyddoedd i ddod. A lle efallai buasai S4C yn penderfynu, 'Rydyn ni'n gwneud y rhaglen rygbi, ond rydyn ni hefyd yn gwneud rhaglenni o'i chwmpas hi hefyd ac yn tynnu'r gynulleidfa i mewn,' dwi ddim yn siŵr a fydd Amazon yn mynd i wneud pethau fel hynny. Beth rwy'n becso amdano yw bydd y cynnig Cymraeg, er o safon yn y rhaglen ei hun, jest yn eistedd yna ac yn sicrhau eu bod nhw ddim yn siario'r gynulleidfa efo neb arall, achos dyna beth mae Amazon yn dda yn ei wneud.

Ac felly, i'r dyfodol, rwy yn credu bod yna risg i'r iaith a risg i sianel fel S4C, ond hefyd yn fwyfwy i'r BBC ac ITV sydd yn cystadlu am yr hawliau yma, fod y bobl yma yn dod i le mae'r PSBs yn draddodiadol wedi bod yn gryf iawn a jest yn ein rhewi ni allan. Felly, yn bendant, dyw S4C ddim yn croesawu beth sy'n digwydd. Rydyn ni'n croesawu'r ffaith ein bod ni wedi cael rhywfaint o highlights y rhaglenni, awr wedi'r peth, ond yn bendant buasai'n lot gwell gennym ni i gael y rhaglen i'w darlledu'n fyw.

Okay, thank you. Well, first of all, does S4C welcome this? No, we bloody don't, to be honest. Certainly, we don't, and for several reasons, really. The first is—. And that's why things are so complex. It's a very good example in a microcosm of what's happening out there. Sport is important for S4C because sport brings a great crowd to the channel—we get a lot of viewers—and it's an opportunity for us to cross-advertise the content of S4C to an audience that doesn't often come into contact with the Welsh language. So, we do plug children's programmes and programmes for learners to those people who come to the channel through sport. So, sport and having the rights that have traditionally come to us through companies such as Sky and so on have been very valuable. But it shows the success of the Welsh language at times because a lot of people watch them.

And what Amazon's done here—and who blames them as a private company—is that we've had good audiences in this regard and they don't want to share them, so they've decided that they are going to take this behind a paywall. So, I think it's a retrograde step for us to think that—. We in Wales could argue that this is one of the crown jewels, but now people will have to pay to watch Wales playing international games over the autumn.

Now, in future, Amazon might decide, 'Well, we're going to provide a programme in Welsh.' What they're trying to do is to freeze us out of the traditional system that we have, and that's just a small example of what is likely to happen in coming years. Where S4C might decide, 'Well, we'll have the rugby programme, but we'll have programmes around that and draw the audience in,' I don't know whether Amazon's going to do that same thing. So, what I'm concerned about is that the Welsh offer, even though it'll be a high-quality offer for the programme itself, will just sit there and it will ensure that they don't share the audience, because that's what Amazon is really good at doing.

So, in future, I think there is a risk to the language and a risk to channels such as S4C, but also increasingly for the BBC and ITV, which are competing for these rights, that these people are encroaching where the PSBs traditionally are very strong and will just freeze us out of that space. So, certainly, S4C isn't welcoming what is happening. We've welcomed the fact that we will have the highlights of the programmes an hour afterwards, but certainly we would much prefer to have that live broadcast.

10:55

Gwnaf i ddod at Phil nawr. Gaf i ofyn i'r tystion: a fyddwch chi ar gael ar gyfer pum munud ychwanegol tan 25 past, i aros, achos dŷn ni yn—? Grêt, ocê. Os gallaf i'n dal ofyn am atebion eithaf cryno os yn bosib, plis. Phil.

I'll come to Phil in a moment. Can I ask the witnesses: would you be available for an additional five minutes until 25 past? Great. If I can still urge you to give succinct answers, please. Phil.

Just picking up on that point about cherry-picking, I think the tradition of public service broadcasting has been to cover a broad range of content. So, you could say, 'Look, there are two really important national events coming up in Wales in the next three or four weeks.' One of them is Wales playing against New Zealand, and you can see why a global brand might see a global brand such as the All Blacks, et cetera, et cetera, and you can see why they might be interested in those rights. But tomorrow is the opening of the sixth Senedd, that's also an important national event. I don't see any global streamer competing for the rights for that, but all three of us as public service broadcasters will be giving that really close attention tomorrow and will be making it available to audiences in Wales for free and universally. And that's what's at the heart of public service broadcasting. That's what currently exists, and what you're seeing in the deal around the rugby is what could happen without legislation, without regulation, without proper thought about how you protect what you value.

A Rhuanedd, os byddech chi'n gallu bod yn fyr os yn bosib achos wedyn bydd—

Rhanedd, if you could be very brief, please.

Rwy i'n addo hynny. Jest i bwysleisio pa mor bwysig yw rygbi a chael rygbi am ddim i gynulleidfaoedd Cymru. Yn ystod gemau’r chwe gwlad, o bawb sy'n gwylio teledu ar y diwrnodau hynny, mae tri chwarter ohonyn nhw yng Nghymru yn gwylio gemau rygbi. Dyna pam mae'n bwysig. Mae'n bwysig i'n cynulleidfaoedd ni, ac rwy'n deall rhwystredigaeth Owen yn iawn. Rŷn ni, wrth gwrs, wedi gorfod ffocysu ar gemau'r chwe gwlad ac mae'n edrych yn addawol, ac rŷn ni'n falch iawn o sicrhau bod hynny'n parhau ar gael am ddim ar BBC ac S4C at y dyfodol, ond allwn ni ddim pwysleisio digon pa mor bwysig yw hyn i gynulleidfaoedd ifanc Cymru hefyd. Mae'r chwaraeon yn creu demograffeg eang, ac mae'n dal yn gynnig pwysig i deledu llinol, ac mi fydd hi am flynyddoedd i ddod, gobeithio.

I promise, yes. Just to emphasise how important rugby is and having that free-to-air rugby for people in Wales. In terms of the six nations, of the people watching television on that day, three quarters of them in Wales are watching rugby games. That's why it's important. It's important to our audiences, and I understand Owen's frustrations. We, of course, have had to focus on the six nations games, and it looks promising, and I'm very pleased to ensure that that continues to be available for free on BBC and S4C in the future, but we can't emphasise enough how important this is for young audiences in Wales as well. Sports do create that wide-ranging demographic and it's still an important offer for linear television, and hopefully it will be for several years to come.

Diolch am hynna. Mae'n flin gen i, bydd rhaid inni symud ymlaen nawr, a gwnawn ni fynd at Tom Giffard nesaf.

Thank you for that. I'm sorry, we'll have to move on, and we'll go to Tom Giffard next.

Thanks, Chair. One of the joys of going in the second half of this thing is all your questions have been answered already, so everything I had prepared has been answered. So, I'll ask one question to the three of you, and hopefully that will help you with your timings as well, Delyth. So, my basic question. I think the general discussion we've had so far is, I think, that we all agree that the rules here need modernising. A lot of the discussion we've had has been about the licence fee, which might be based on numbers of set-top boxes or channel licences, and to some that sort of discussion might be quite old hat, considering how the landscape is changing. So, do you think the proposals by Ofcom go far enough in that regard? And if they don't, what are the answers here?

11:00

Yes, we are happy with these recommendations, particularly on prominence and availability. We think they're proportionate. But, let's not underestimate the audience challenge here. There are issues that we as broadcasters as well have to address in order to ensure the prominence of Welsh content on our screens. But, I think, in the general scheme of things, as Owen said earlier, the key thing now is, having talked about this for a very long time, that legislation takes place, that these are enacted and put in place, because time is of the essence. We've got to move as fast as our audiences are moving around this content in order to compete, and that's what we need to see applied to this. And this is where I think members of this committee can help accelerate action in these areas.

Diolch. Roedd yn gwestiwn diddorol amboutu'r ffi drwydded. Tom, roeddet ti'n gofyn i raddau amboutu gyfundrefn y ffi drwydded i'r dyfodol. Mae S4C yn eithaf unique achos rydyn ni wedi cael ein cyllido o direct grant, o'r Swyddfa Gartref ar y pryd; rydyn ni wedi cael rhywfaint o arian oddi wrth DCMS; rydyn ni wedi cael cash trwy'r ffi drwydded, a nawr rydyn ni'n mynd i'r ffi drwydded yn gyfan gwbl. Mae'r drafodaeth yn mynd ymlaen, ymlaen ac ymlaen, a does dim ateb perffaith, ond y cwestiwn yw os ydy'r Llywodraeth angen PSBs, mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw gael eu hariannu rhyw ffordd. Dwi wedi edrych ar sawl model, a it's probably the least bad model. Mae yna lot o gwestiynau wedyn am y ffaith ei fod e'n regressive a ddim yn progressive, ond mae honno'n ddadl i ddydd arall. Ond, i fi, mae hwnna'n rhywbeth i'w drafod yn y dyfodol; y peth pwysig nawr yw jest 'enact-io' y stwff yma, jest mynd trwyddo fe a chael y ddeddfwriaeth yn ei lle. 

Thank you. It's an interesting question in terms of the licence fee. Tom, you were asking to an extent about the future licence fee regime. S4C is quite unique because we've been funded from a direct grant, from the Home Office I think it was at the time; we've had some funding from DCMS; we've had cash through the licence fee, and now we're going to move to the licence fee entirely. Now, the discussion is going on and on and on and on, and there's no perfect answer, but the question is, if the Government wants PSBs then they need to be funded in some way. And I have looked at several models, and it's probably the least bad model. There are questions then about the fact that it's regressive rather than progressive, but that's a debate for another day. But, for me, that's something that we do need to discuss in future; the important thing now is just to enact this stuff, go through it, and have the legislation in place.

Phil. Sorry, you weren't quite unmuted. You're unmuted now. 

Sorry. I think one of the key differences between us and the BBC and S4C is obviously that we have to, in a sense, earn it before we can spend it. And one of the recommendations that Ofcom has put forward is around fiscal incentives, and Rhuanedd has already mentioned the opposition, quite rightly, against the top-slicing of the licence fee for that. But, I do think that the debate—. If we want more, and it comes back to what Alun was saying at the beginning about how is Wales served currently, and there's a debate around that, so if we want more in the future, then I think there's got to be a really open and honest conversation about how that is paid for.

We've seen in the production sector, for example, the way that tax credits and so on and so forth can really boost production. So, from our perspective, could something like a green production tax credit, which incentivises UK content producers to continue to innovate and maintain the UK's position in film and television—you know, how might we sort of do that? We're all moving towards becoming Albert accredited and creating sustainable programming. Should there be some sort of tax break for doing that? In our particular case, our programming is funded by advertising minutes. Are there incentives that Ofcom as the regulator could provide to enable us to do more? This is a heavily regulated environment. So, it can't all be about the licence fee; it also has to be about the tax system and other fiscal incentives that could be provided to sustain the public service content that we all want to see.

Thanks for that. I think Rhuanedd wanted to come back in. 

Yes, very briefly. I just want to illustrate this quickly in terms of the audience benefits and the economic benefits. In terms of the audience benefits, let's just take the last 18 months and the pandemic. Over those 18 months, audiences to our news programme, Wales Today, have increased by 171,000 people. We've seen the number of people watching the briefings of the First Minister accelerate hugely during the year—people understanding the divergence of decision making between Cardiff and London, between Westminster and the Welsh Government. And that has been critical for people to make decisions and choices. Now, imagine if that information wasn't easily discoverable or available; it could have been catastrophic.

But, equally, in terms of the impact on the creative sector and why this is so important to them, our creative sector in Wales is growing quicker than in pretty much any other part of the UK. Over the last 10 years, where the creative sector has grown in the UK by around 31 per cent, in Cardiff and the surrounding regions, the growth has been 54 per cent. We need to keep investing in the sector, we need to keep building the content that Alun spoke about right at the beginning of this session—for Wales, by Wales, made in Wales. And in order to do that, you have to have a financial settlement that works, you have to be competitive with the big players, and you have to have prominence on your platforms. So, I guess that tries to illustrate why it's important, why it's important to Wales, and why we need to see things moving much more quickly.

11:05

I think Phil wanted to—.

Gwnaf i ddod at Phil ac wedyn Owen. Os byddwch chi'n gallu bod yn eithaf byr. 

I'll come to Phil and then Owen. If you could be brief, please.

Just very, very quickly, again, one of Ofcom's recommendations is around—. The current environment is mostly all about television, and, really, when you're commissioning content now, you're not just thinking purely about television, you're thinking about online and so on and so forth. So, there's got to be a new framework that enables the producers—. They may be no longer commissioned to make it for television, they might be commissioned to make it online. So, there's got to be a new framework, it's got to be updated for the modern world so that our production community can benefit from the opportunities that exist from this online world, rather than, in a sense, being hamstrung by being commissioned to make television and then secondary rights in terms of catch-up and so on and so forth. The reality is that broadcasters such as ourselves are going to start commissioning for online audiences only, and we need a new framework in which to do that.

Diolch. Ac Owen yn olaf.

Thank you. And Owen, finally.

Y peth i fi yw bod hwn yn fargen. Mae hwn yn rhywbeth dŷch chi'n ei roi i ni—PSB prominence a phethau fel hynny—ac mae'n rhaid inni roi rhywbeth nôl i chi. Ac felly, ar y ddadl economaidd, un o'r pethau buaswn i efallai yn dadlau drosto yw: os bydd setliad yma'n digwydd, a'u bod nhw yn deddfu, what's the payback? Beth dŷch chi'n ei gael mas ohonom ni? Ac felly, mae'r pwynt economaidd yn rili bwysig. Efo S4C, mae gyda ni Rondo, mae gyda ni Cwmni Da, mae gyda ni Darlun yn y gogledd, mae gyda ni Tinopolis a Telesgop draw yn y gorllewin, mae gyda ni lu o gwmnïau fel Avanti a Boom. Mae tua 50 o gwmnïau o gwmpas Cymru. O ddydd i ddydd, ni sy'n cadw'r sector yna i fynd, a dyna lle mae economi Cymru wedi llwyddo—darlledu a chreu cynnwys fel hynny. A nawr mae'r bobl yma wedi symud dros y byd i gyd i weithio. Felly, fel rhan o'r fargen, ydw, rwyf fi'n credu y buaswn i'n eich annog chi i'n cefnogi ni i bwsio am y ddeddfwriaeth yma, ond wedyn mae'r drafodaeth yn troi at beth ydych chi'n cael nôl.

This is a bargain. This is something that you give to us—PSB prominence and so on—and then we need to give something back. So, on the economic debate, one of the things that I would argue for is that if the settlement were to happen and if they were to legislate, what's the payback? What do you get out of us? So, the economic point is really important. With S4C, we have Rondo, we have Cwmni Da, we have Darlun in the north, we have Telesgop, Tinopolis in the west, we have a whole host of companies such as Avanti and Boom. There are around 50 companies around Wales. On a daily basis, we are the ones who are keeping that sector going, and that's one place where the economy of Wales has succeeded—broadcasting and creating that kind of content. And now these companies have moved around the world to work. So, as part of the bargain that needs to be struck, I would encourage you to support us to push for this legislation, but then the discussion turns to what you get back from that.

Diolch, Owen. Fe wnawn ni symud at Hefin David.

Thank you, Owen. We'll move to Hefin David.

Can I ask if any of the panel have looked at international examples of how these things, these challenges, have been addressed?

Yr un mwyaf amlwg yw—. Cofiwch, dwi ddim yn expert ar hwn, ond rwyf i wedi edrych ar fodelau dros y byd. Mae'n dibynnu pa mor ambitious mae'r Llywodraeth eisiau bod, yn y bôn. Os ydych chi'n edrych ar beth sydd wedi bod yn digwydd yn yr Almaen a Ffrainc o gwmpas rhwystro tyfiant pobl fel Google, Facebook a phobl fel hyn, mae e'n eithaf diddorol fel y maen nhw wedi newid eu rheolau nhw i sicrhau mwy o level playing field i'w cwmnïau lleol. Dwi ddim yn cynnwys pobl fel Tsieina a llefydd fel hynny achos dŷn nhw ddim yn ddemocrataidd. Ond yn y gwledydd Ewropeaidd sydd yn, rwy'n credu ei bod hi'n werth jest cael cipolwg ar beth sy'n digwydd yn yr Almaen a beth sy'n digwydd i raddau yn Ffrainc—yn yr Almaen fwyaf. Ac mae trafodaethau jest yn dechrau nawr yn Sgandinafia hefyd. Mae'r European Broadcasting Union, sy'n gorff sydd yn goruchwylio darlledwyr ar draws Ewrop—sydd ddim yn rhan o'r UE ei hun, ond sy'n gorff ar wahân—wedi gwneud eithaf lot o waith am sut ddylai'r darlledwyr cyhoeddus amddiffyn pwysigrwydd eu gwaith nhw efo llywodraethiant yn y dyfodol.

The most obvious one is—. I'm not an expert, but I have looked at models worldwide. It depends how ambitious the Government wants to be, really. If you look at what has been happening in Germany and France around preventing the growth of corporations such as Google, Facebook and so on, then it's interesting to see how they've changed their rules to ensure more of a level playing field for local companies. I don't include people such as China and so on, because they're not democratic. But in terms of the European nations that are, it's worth having a look at what's happening in Germany, and to an extent in France—but perhaps Germany most of all. And the discussions are starting in Scandinavia too. The European Broadcasting Union, which is the umbrella organisation for broadcasting across Europe—that isn't part of the EU itself and is a separate body—has done a great deal of work on how the public service broadcasters should safeguard and protect the importance of their work with governance structures in future.

11:10

I think the only point I would make there, Hefin, is that I think sometimes there can be a view that it's the internet and you can't regulate the internet, and these are global companies and nothing can be done. And I think that there are increasingly examples around the world—I'd point towards Australia—where, when national Governments say, 'No, the content produced by national providers for our audiences is important to us and we want to level the playing field with you', then actually that can make a difference. And, again, Ofcom's recommendations give a framework for the UK Government to be able to make that stand for public service content in Wales—public service content for the UK, of course, of which Wales is a part. So, my overall stance would be if you get the framework right you can make a stand against some of the—. It is not inevitable that the fragmentation of the audience and the destruction of public service broadcasting will happen, but it is going to take political will to stand up to this. 

I must admit, having only been in post a few months, I haven't had a chance to examine the international systems closely, but it's something I am very interested in, and I know colleagues in the BBC have certainly taken a look at this. What we've got to remember, though, is that the truth is that everybody's looking at us as well and looking at the unique public service broadcasting system we've got here and its contribution to society and broader economic value and social value. And I think what can't be lost here is that value and the fact that we have got something really quite precious that we need to protect. 

The Ofcom report specifically references Iceland, Canada and Switzerland, and it's quite interesting that nobody on the panel actually talked about those countries but instead talked about Germany, Australia and I suppose a little bit about Scandinavia, the Scandinavian countries. I don't know why the examples are just posted in the report, because I can't see how they link to the rest of the report. Is there value in looking at other countries, or are we sui generis here and the only solution is going to be at home?

I think the answer is Phil's point, actually, that what the international examples give you—. Every model is different and every model will work differently in every different country, but it's to have the ambition to try. And I think you can curtail the activities of these behemoths, but you need to have the political will to do so. 

Okay. Just from my perspective, from some of the things that have been said, Owen, it seems that S4C is in a position where things are happening to it, like the Amazon example. I'm really frustrated; I like to watch the rugby in Gilfach workies, but I don't know how we're going to manage it, because they don't have Amazon. Normally we'd have it on S4C in Welsh and enjoy that. So, S4C has things happening to it. ITV, perhaps, has a few more choices with regard to the future. If the regulatory landscape is going to be so difficult to contain and contestably fragmented as Phil suggests, is the channel 3 franchise even going to be worth it in a few years' time, Phil?

I think, again, I come back to my overall point: if we do nothing, the global giants will be fine and the economics of the licence will just get more and more challenging. But, we're starting from the position that we recognise the value that the licence creates for viewers. We want to continue to do it, but we can't do it at any price. And it is going to need these changes in order to give a fair chance that the licence can deliver into the future.

In my mind, there are three important elements. I've been doing this for a long time; I've been working in Welsh journalism for 30 years and creating content for 30 years for Welsh audiences, and three things need to happen, in my view, to get to a place where public service content, commercially funded, is created. The first question to ask is: does ITV itself as an organisation want to do it? And I think we can unequivocally say, 'Yes, absolutely'. The second question is: what does the regulator think? The regulator has now come up with its report and said, 'Look, this is what we think needs to happen in order for that content, which is so valued by audiences in Wales and right across the UK, to continue in this new globalised world'. The third question then is that the UK Government needs to enact it. And that's the bit now—that's where this committee and your scrutiny and your questioning can be really helpful now in this debate, really being that voice for Wales.

As a Welsh audience, we rely really heavily on the content produced by the PSBs. I want to see that continue. I don't want to see a Wales where the BBC is the dominant factor. I love the BBC dearly, but I don't want to see them dominate. Because of the content we create for an ITV audience, we have the critical mass and the expertise, the know-how, to create the same sort of news and current affairs content in the Welsh language for S4C; I want to see programmes such as Y Byd ar Bedwar and Y Byd yn ei Le continue. So, yes, I think we should have hope, but there are a lot of things that are going to need to happen in the next 12 to 18 months for that to happen. By no means is any of this certain, and your voice within this debate is really, really important.

11:15

Hefin, just before you come back in, just to let everyone know, we're into our last five minutes of the allocated time; witnesses have very kindly agreed to be with us until 25 past, but we absolutely do need to end at 25 past, please. Okay, Hefin.

Just to say to Phil: it appears, then, that Ofcom are moving in a direction that you would find satisfactory, but there's a big gap between the breadth of what they're suggesting and the detail of legislation. Could it be there that the problem's occurring? As the landscape becomes fragmented, as you suggested, it may end up being not worth the battle in the future.

I think one of the things I've certainly discovered, and I think this committee's probably coming to terms with as well, is the speed of change. When you moved from four channels to 100 channels, that probably took nearly 10 years to happen. What we're talking about now—the things that are going to happen in terms of the globalisation of the marketplace, the globalisation of viewing—is going to happen very, very quickly, and so legislation actually does need to happen very, very quickly. But Ofcom's report is very detailed, it's very thorough, and it's a great basis for that legislation. And what we really do need to see happening, make no mistake—to come back to that sort of tsunami example, there's a first-order thing to do here: you have to create a new framework for all the PSBs, and particularly the commercial PSBs, and then you can get into the detail of what that commercial PSB can deliver into the future. But the framework is the most important thing; without that framework, it's really hard to see how we would ever get to the point of talking about the detail in a future licence.

Okay. And what about—I'll try and leave out the BBC and come to S4C—a voice for S4C? What do we do to give S4C that voice in that future landscape and future legislation?

Yr un mwyaf, dwi'n credu, yw parity. Mae'r dadlau rhyngom ni a'r Llywodraeth yn Llundain—mae'r BBC, ITV, Channel 4 a Channel 5 yn dod at ei gilydd i ddadlau ar ein rhan ni. Mae'r iaith Gymraeg yn bwysig. Er ein bod ni'n fach, dŷn ni'n rili bwysig i gyfundrefn Cymru. Roeddet ti'n dweud gynnau fach bod 'things are done to us'; wel, mae ein huchelgais ni lot yn fwy na 'things being done to us'. Ac felly, dŷn ni yn Llundain, dŷn ni yn gweithio efo partneriaid mwy i sicrhau bod llais S4C yn torri trwyddo yn hwn. Y peth pwysicaf yw bod y gwleidyddion yn gallu gweld bod yr iaith Gymraeg yn bwysig, ei bod hi'n werth cefnogi, a'i bod hi'n werth delio â hi o fewn y gyfundrefn newydd digidol yma.

The biggest one is parity. The debate between us and the  Government in London—BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5 have come together to argue on our behalf. The Welsh language is important. Even though we're small, we're very important to the system in Wales. You said earlier on that things are done to us; well, our ambition is far greater than having things being done to us. So, we are in London, we are working with larger partners now to ensure that the voice of S4C does cut through. The most important thing is that the politicians can see that the Welsh language is important, that it's worth supporting, that it's worth dealing with within this new regime.

A gaf i grynhoi, efallai, gan eich bod chi ddim wedi gofyn cwestiwn i fi, jest trwy ddweud bod hynny'n bwysig i'r BBC hefyd? Mae'n bwysig bod S4C ac ITV yn gryf; mae'n bwysig bod S4C yn parhau i gael annibyniaeth comisiynu fel sydd ganddi, a'r grym yna i yrru'r sector  ymlaen. Rŷn ni yn y BBC yn elwa o hynny hefyd, yn ogystal ag o fuddsoddiad ITV, ac mae'r plwraliaeth yna yng Nghymru yn hollbwysig, dwi'n meddwl, i'n cynulleidfaoedd ni yn ogystal.

May I summarise, perhaps, because you didn't ask a question to me directly, by just saying that it's important for the BBC as well? It's important that S4C and ITV are strong; it's important that S4C continues to have its commissioning independence as it has, and that power to drive the sector forward. We at the BBC benefit from that as well, as well as from the investment made by ITV, and that plurality in Wales is very important, I think, to our audiences too.

Ocê. Hefin, ydych chi'n hapus?

Okay. Hefin, are you content with that?

Sorry, Rhuanedd, it was time I was worried about there. 

I didn't take it personally, don't worry. 

Diolch am hynny. Mae gennynm ni chwe munud ar ôl. Mi wnawn ni symud yn olaf at Carolyn Thomas.

Thank you for that. We have six minutes left. We'll move finally to Carolyn Thomas.

Diolch. I think the questions I was going to ask have been answered already. I'm finding this really informative, so I'm making a lot of notes. I'd just like to say thank you for filming I'm a Celebrity in north Wales, in Abergele. I went there this summer and having that international status has made such a difference. There used to be hundreds of visitors; now there are thousands. The grounds and the gardens are beautiful and it's just given recognition to that area. The same with Wrexham football club, as well—it's amazing that, now they've got international celebrity status, they had 9,000 supporters there at a match, which is unbelievable. So, what's being done to promote the area? It just goes to show, doesn't it, the difference that that makes. But I think the questions I was going to ask have already been answered, so thank you.

11:20

Ocê, diolch, Carolyn. Oes gan unrhyw un cwestiwn cryno iawn roedden nhw eisiau ei ofyn yn ychwanegol? Mae Alun yn edrych fel ei fod e—. Ocê. Cwestiwn olaf.

Thank you. Does anybody else have a very short question that they wanted to ask? Alun looks as if he wants to ask something.

What happens next, then? The three of you have been very clear in the things that are important for yourselves in different ways, and, in many ways, from our perspective, it's a lot cleaner, if you like, with S4C, because we've got a chief executive in front of us rather than a head of content and the rest of it, with all due respect. So, we're able to look at S4C with more clarity, and my concern is how we ensure that we have both of the broadcasters that deliver for us—and I see Channel 4 as under significant threat at the moment from the Department of Culture, Media and Sport, I'll make that clear to you—and I see yourselves looking for particular regulatory tools to be in place to help support your own position. So, what is the single thing, from your perspective, that would help achieve an objective that I would set you—and I'm talking more in the English language than the Welsh language now, quite honestly—of more production, more portrayal and more content produced in Wales for UK audiences, but also in Wales or elsewhere for Welsh audiences. What is the shopping list, if you like?

A couple of sentences if possible, please, because we really have to finish at 11:25, I'm afraid.

Well, I'm happy to jump in and say, look, in terms of what Ofcom's proposing, that would mean a continuation of what ITV does in Wales, potentially, and that's really, really important. And then I totally understand the point that you want more, and it comes back to what I was saying earlier—well, then there has to be an honest and open conversation about how that would be funded. And there are—. Within Ofcom's report, there are ideas for new fiscal incentives, and I think that that's—

Can I interrupt you quickly and break Rhuanedd's heart? Would you accept cash from a licence fee in the future, just in hypothetical terms?

I tend not to talk about hypotheticals. At the end of the day, what we're talking about here—we need to sort out the framework first before you can get into the detail. I can't stress that enough, because we won't be talking about the detail without the framework.

Okay. Very, very briefly, Rhuanedd and then Owen. Very briefly, please.

Okay. For me, content development goes hand in hand with product development and prominence. We can't separate these three issues. I am in constant discussions with Tim Davie, with the executive committee of the BBC, about how we're going to move more production to Wales, how we're going to ensure that Wales has a stronger presence across our networks, and do you know what? I've never seen such a level of commitment to make that happen, because I think there's that realisation that it's what makes the BBC different to our global competitors, our proximity to our audiences. But we've got to get our content right, we've got to get our platforms right, and then we've got to have the prominence. So, it's ensuring that we get movement on that third aspect. 

Diolch, Rhuanedd. Ac yn olaf, Owen. Doeddech chi ddim wedi'ch dadfiwtio. 

Thank you. And finally, Owen. You haven't been unmuted.

Hang on—can we unmute Owen, please? Thank you.

Diolch. Pwynt bach yn hunanol, ond, i gwestiwn Alun, mae'r Llywodraeth yn Llundain yn siarad lot amboutu levelling up. Beth mae'n rhaid i ni sicrhau fan hyn o ran yr iaith Gymraeg yw that we don't level down, so mae'r setliad yn bwysig.

Thank you. A selfish point, but, to Alun's point, the Government in London talks a lot about levelling up. What that means in Wales and for the Welsh language is that we must ensure we don't level down, so the settlement is important there.

Roedd hwnna'n gryno iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Owen. Ocê, reit. Diolch i'r tystion i gyd. Bydd trawsgript yn cael ei danfon atoch chi i'w wirio, ac rwy'n siŵr y byddwn ni'n mewn cysyslliad gyda chi yn fuan iawn am nifer o'r pwynciau rydyn ni wedi'u codi heddiw. Diolch yn fawr iawn am aros gyda ni yn ychwanegol. Diolch am fod gyda ni heddiw. Diolch.

I'r Aelodau, byddwn ni'n cymryd egwyl byrrach nag oedd ar ein hagenda ni—am bum munud. Os all Aelodau fod nôl erbyn 11:28, os gwelwch yn dda.

That was very succinct. Thank you very much, Owen. Thank you to all witnesses. A draft transcript will be sent to you to check for accuracy. I'm sure that we'll be in touch with you very soon on a number of the topics that we've raised. Thank you very much to all of you for waiting and staying with us for an additional five minutes. Thank you for being here today. Thank you.

For Members, we'll take a shorter break than was scheduled on our agenda—for five minutes. If Members could be back by 11:28, please. Thank you.

Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:24 ac 11:30.

The meeting adjourned between 11:24 and 11:30.

11:30
4. Dyfodol cyfryngau gwasanaeth cyhoeddus: Academyddion
4. Future of public service media: Academics

Bore da. Croeso nôl. Rydyn ni'n symud yn syth ymlaen at eitem 4, sef ein sesiwn bore yma gydag academyddion, sef gair dwi byth yn gallu dweud yn iawn. Gaf i ofyn i'r panelwyr gyflwyno eu hunain ar gyfer y Cofnod? Fe wnaf i fynd at Ruth yn gyntaf. 

Good morning. Welcome back. We move straight on to item 4, which is our session with academics, a word that I can never say in Welsh. May I ask the panelists to introduce themselves for the Record? I'll go to Ruth first of all. 

Bore da, pawb. Dwi'n athro yn y diwydiannau creadigol ym Mhrifysgol De Cymru. Diolch am y croeso.

Good morning, everyone. I'm a professor in the creative industries at the University of South Wales. Thank you very much for the welcome. 

Diolch, Ruth. A dylwn i wedi cecio hyn yn yr egwyl, Caitriona. Ife Cait-rina neu Caitri-o-na? Dwi wedi cwrdd â menywod—

Thank you, Ruth. And I should have checked this in the break: is it Cait-rina or Caitri-o-na? I've—

It's Cait-rina. 

Yes. Thanks, Delyth. My name is Caitriona Noonan. I'm a senior lecturer at Cardiff University in the school of journalism, media and cultural studies. 

Helo, bore da. Dwi yma fel cadeirydd pwyllgor ymgynghorol Ofcom. Fel mae'n digwydd, dwi yn darlithio hefyd weithiau mewn rhai agweddau ar gyfraith y cyfryngau, ond dwi yma heddiw fel cadeirydd y pwyllgor. Hoffwn i wneud y pwynt bod y pwyllgor yn, fel dwi'n ei ddweud e, hyd braich o Ofcom. Rŷn ni'n darparu cyngor i Ofcom ar faterion yn ymwneud â Cymru a defnyddwyr yng Nghymru a dinasyddion, ond dŷn ni ddim yn cynrychioli barn Ofcom a does dim rhaid i Ofcom gymryd beth rŷn ni'n argymell chwaith. Maen nhw i fod i ymgynghori â ni, ond does dim rhaid iddyn nhw gymryd ein hargymhellion ni, felly.  

Good morning. Yes, I'm here as chair of the Ofcom advisory committee for Wales. As it happens, I do lecture sometimes on some aspects of media law, but I'm here as chair of the advisory committee. I'd like to make the point that the committee is an arm's length committee to Ofcom. We provide advice to Ofcom with regard to Wales and citizens in Wales, but we don't represent the opinion of Ofcom and Ofcom doesn't have to take on board what we recommend either. They are supposed to consult us, but they don't have to take on board our recommendations. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn am egluro hynna i ni. Ac yn olaf, Gareth.

Thank you very much for explaining that to us. And finally, Gareth. 

Helo. Dwi ddim yma mewn unrhyw rinwedd academaidd o gwbl, ond dwi yma fel cadeirydd Teledwyr Annnibynnol Cymru a dwi hefyd yn brif weithredwr ar gwmni Rondo Media. Ac mae'n dda iawn gweld chi i gyd. Diolch am y gwahoddiad.  

Hello. I'm not here in any academic capacity at all, but I'm here as the chair of TAC and I'm also chief executive of the Rondo Media company. It's great to see you all. Thank you very much for the invitation. 

Dwi'n falch iawn eich gweld chi gyd hefyd. Fel gwnes i ddweud yn yr egwyl wrthoch chi, rydyn ni eisiau cyfro nifer fawr iawn o bynciau y bore ma, felly byddaf yn gofyn am atebion mor gryno â phosib, os yn bosib. Fe wnaf i jest, i ddechrau, ofyn i chi—. Rydyn ni wedi bod yn trafod argymhellion Ofcom yn bennaf bore ma. O ran beth sydd wedi cael ei argymell, os ydych chi'n gallu meddwl am yr argymhelliad mwyaf arwyddocaol ar gyfer cynulleidfaoedd yng Nghymru, beth fyddai hynny? Pwy bynnag sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf. Ruth.

It's great to see all of you too. As I said in the break, we do want to cover a great deal of issues and topics this morning, so I'll be asking for succinct responses, if possible. And just to start, I'll ask you—. We have been discussing the recommendations made by Ofcom mainly this morning. In terms of what has been recommended, if you could think about the recommendation that is most significant for audiences in Wales, what would that recommendation be? Who wants to to go first? Ruth.   

Mi wnaf i gychwyn. Dwi'n meddwl mai'r peth mwyaf sylfaenol ydy'r angen i foderneiddio'r fframwaith reoleiddio. Mae hynna'n hanfodol bwysig i bawb yn y Deyrnas Unedig, buaswn i'n dweud, ond yn sicr y mae inni yng Nghymru. Ac ynghlwm â hynna, y cwestiwn o amlygrwydd darlledwyr cyhoeddus, gan gynnwys S4C, wrth gwrs, o ran amlygrwydd cynnwys cyfrwng Cymraeg. 

I'll start. I think that the most fundamental thing is the need to modernise the regulatory framework. That is vitally important for everyone in the United Kingdom, I would say, but certainly for us in Wales. And aligned with that is the question of the prominence of public service broadcasters, including S4C, of course, in terms of that Welsh-medium prominence. 

Diolch am hynna. Hywel. 

Thank you very much for that. Hywel.

Gallaf ategu'r hyn roedd Ruth yn ei ddweud, yn enwedig ynglŷn ag amlygrwydd. Fel enghraifft, byddwn i'n dweud bod y ffordd mae pobl yn defnyddio'r cyfryngau wedi newid mor sylfaenol, mae angen adolygu fel y mae cyfryngau yn cael eu rheoleiddio. Fel enghraifft, os ydych chi'n meddwl am y cyfarwyddion rhaglenni electronig, er enghraifft, sydd i fod i roi amlygrwydd i'r darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, yn ymarferol, wrth gwrs, bydd pobl yn mynd yn syth at yr ap maen nhw'n ddewis ar eu sgrîn nhw, ac yn syth o fanna efallai i wasanaeth-ar-alw. Felly, mae'r broses o sicrhau amlygrwydd sydd yn y ddeddfwriaeth erbyn hyn yn hen iawn, ac mae eisiau edrych eto ar ffordd y gallwn ni sicrhau bod amlygrwydd yn cael ei roi ar gyfer y darlledwyr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus.  

Can I endorse what Ruth said, especially with regard to prominence? For example, the way that people use media has changed so fundamentally, we need to review how the media are regulated. For example, if you think about the EPGs, for example, which are meant to give that prominence to the PSBs, then, practically speaking, people will go straight to the app that they choose on their screen, and straight from there perhaps to an on-demand service. So, the process of ensuring that prominence that's noted in legislation is slightly old-fashioned now, and we need to look at how prominence is given to those PSBs. 

Diolch, Hywel. Caitriona. 

Thank you, Hywel. Caitriona.

Yes, I endorse what both say, and I think the shift in the narrative of the Ofcom report, from thinking about broadcast simply to thinking about broadcast plus online, is really important, and, as both said, the kind of market structures that go around that. I was also struck by the request to formalise the contribution of public service broadcasters to the creative economy more generally, and I really welcome that. They've been doing that for a very long time, and I think having that within the legislative framework is really important, particularly here in Wales, and particularly to small and medium-sized production companies in Wales. 

Diolch, Caitriona. Gareth. 

Thank you, Caitriona. Gareth.

Jest i ychwanegu, yn amlwg mae yna drafodaethau wedi bod am amlygrwydd. Ar y cwestiwn o amlygrwydd, dwi ddim yn siŵr pa mor hawdd yw e'n mynd i fod i'r darlledwyr ac i'r gwneuthurwyr teclynnau a'r deiliaid ar y cytundebau hynny benderfynu sut mae amlygrwydd yn gweithio yn ymarferol. Mae hwnna yn mynd i fod yn her, dwi'n meddwl, ond mae'r amlygrwydd yna'n allweddol. Os oes unrhyw beth wedi profi pa mor allweddol yw'r amlygrwydd, cyfnod y pandemig yw e, pan ydych chi wedi gweld Netflix yn cynyddu 38 y cant o'u cynulleidfa. Mae Netflix wedi llwyddo rheoli eu system o dalu eu dyledion nhw yn ystod y cyfnod yna. Mae Netflix hefyd wedi codi prisiau yn y cyfnod yna ar ddefnyddwyr ar gyfer y gwahanol wasanaethau. Felly dwi'n meddwl bod y tyfiant sydd wedi bod yn S4C Clic, yn yr iPlayer, yn ITV Hub ac All4, er enghraifft, y llwyfannau hynny, yn allweddol i'w llwyddiant nhw, a bod cynulleidfaoedd ddim yn colli allan. Ac fe fyddan nhw'n colli allan os ydyn nhw'n colli cyfle i wylio cynnwys, a bod yna lai o gynnwys yn bodoli hefyd iddyn nhw.

Just to add, obviously, there have been discussions about prominence in the past. On this question of prominence, I don't know how easy it is going to be for the broadcasters and the device manufacturers and those involved with those agreements to decide how prominence works in practice. I think that's going to be a challenge, but that prominence is vitally important. The pandemic demonstrates how important that prominence is; you've seen Netflix increasing its audience by 38 per cent. Netflix have managed to control their processes for paying their debts over that time. They've also increased their prices over the past period. So, I think that the growth that there has been in S4C Clic, in iPlayer, ITV Hub and All4 is vital to their success so that audiences don't lose out. And they will lose out if they lose the opportunity to watch content and there's less content available to them.

11:35

Diolch am hynny i chi gyd. O, mae Hywel eisiau dod nôl i mewn. O, dŷch chi ddim—. Ydyn ni'n gallu dadfiwtio Hywel, plis?

Thank you very much for that. Oh, Hywel wants to come back in. You haven't been unmuted. Can we unmute Hywel, please?

Jest pwynt cyflym i ategu hynny. Yn sôn am Netflix, mae bron i 60 y cant nawr o gartrefi yng Nghymru yn tanysgrifio i wasanaethau Netflix, ac wrth gwrs mae dros hanner o'r setiau teledu yng Nghymru wedi cysylltu â'r rhyngrwyd, so mae'r cwestiwn o wylio cynnwys dros y rhyngrwyd ar eich prif set, er enghraifft, neu dros ddyfeisiadau eraill, yn fyw iawn, yn enwedig o safbwynt cyrff fel Netflix.

Just a quick point to endorse that. Mentioning Netflix, almost 60 per cent of homes in Wales subscribe to Netflix services, and over half of television sets in Wales are connected to the internet, so the question of watching content over the internet, on your main set for example, or over other devices, is a very live one, particularly with regard to bodies like Netflix.

Diolch am hynna. Ruth, oeddech chi wedi rhoi eich llaw i fyny hefyd? Neu efallai—. Na.

Thank you for that. Ruth, did you put your hand up as well? No.

I was imagining it.

Mae'n flin gen i. Ocê, fe wnawn ni symud ymlaen at Alun Davies.

I'm sorry. Okay, we'll move on to Alun Davies.

So, how do we do it, then? You've all spoken about due prominence, and it used to be a fairly simple thing, wasn't it? You could regulate who got what number on the EPG and it was very straightforward. ITV would tell you, 'It's not worth as much as you think, you know,' and then Ofcom would back down and say, 'Okay, fine, you can get away with this, this or that.' Nowadays, I access my tv using my app. So, I'm interested to know, and you've all got extraordinary, wide experience of this world, how do you ensure due prominence in a world where the EPG is potentially a secondary means of accessing services? You don't all need to rush, but—. [Laughter.]

Pwy sydd eisiau mynd yn gyntaf? Hywel.

Who wants to go first? Hywel.

Un agwedd ar hwn, rwy'n credu, hefyd yw'r ffordd y mae'r cynnwys yn mynd i gael ei ariannu. Yn ein tystiolaeth ni i'r pwyllgor, fe wnaethon ni sôn, er enghraifft, am enghraifft yn Awstralia, lle mae News Corporation, un o'r cyhoeddwyr mawr yn Awstralia, wedi dod i gytundeb gyda Facebook i wneud yn siŵr nawr fod yna daliadau yn cael eu gwneud os maen nhw'n cario straeon sydd yn dod o News Corporation. Hynny yw, mae cyrff fel Facebook a Google yn cario lot mawr o gynnwys sy'n dod o gynhyrchwyr eraill, gan gynnwys cynhyrchwyr neu gyfryngau gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, ac ar hyn o bryd maen nhw jest yn cael e am ddim. Ac roeddwn i'n meddwl bod efallai—. Fe wnaethon ni sôn yn ein papur ni bod yna le i feddwl am ardoll fyddai'n rhaid iddyn nhw ei thalu, er mwyn defnyddio'r arian yna, wedyn, efallai, i wneud cronfa fyddai'n gallu cael ei defnyddio i ddarparu cynnwys.

One aspect of this as well is the way that the content is funded. In our evidence to the committee we talked, for example, about an example in Australia, where News Corporation, one of the major broadcasters in Australia, has come to an agreement with Facebook that will ensure that there are payments made if they carry stories that emanate from News Corporation. Companies such as Facebook and Google carry a great deal of content from other producers, including public service broadcasters, and at the moment they just get it for free. And I think—. We said in our paper that perhaps there is a space to think about a levy that they would have to pay, in order to use that funding to generate a fund that could be used to provide content.

Gaf i ddod nôl atat ti, Hywel? Dwi ddim yn siŵr bod hynny yn ateb y cwestiwn amboutu sut mor amlwg ydy'r apiau yma, achos dwi'n derbyn y pwynt amboutu cynnwys—mae hynny'n ddigon teg—ond dwi ddim yn credu ei fod e'n ateb y cwestiwn dŷch chi wedi gosod eich hun.

Can I just come back to you on that, Hywel? I don't know whether that answers the question about how prominent these apps are, because I accept the point about the content—that is fair enough—but I don't think it answers the question that you've set yourself.

Mae hynny'n bwynt teg, rwy'n credu. Y peth yw bod yn rhaid gwneud yn siŵr bod, er enghraifft, gwasanaethau-ar-alw y darlledwyr neu'r darparwyr cynnwys ar gael ar y llwyfannau i gyd, ac mae hynny'n mynd i fod yn her anferth. Mae yna enghreifftiau yn cael eu rhoi, er enghraifft, yn adroddiadau Ofcom, ynglŷn â pha mor anodd mae e i wneud yn siŵr bod gyda ni gwasanaethau—. Cymerwch, er enghraifft, Clic, gwasanaeth S4C ar alw. Byddech chi'n moyn bod hwnna ar bob llwyfan. Nawr, er enghraifft, yn achos teledu BT, mae Clic ar gael fel ap yn ogystal â'r chwaraewyr eraill, so, yn yr achos yna, mae'r amlygrwydd yno, a beth sy'n wych yw, pan ŷch chi'n mynd at y dudalen gyntaf, rydych chi'n gweld lluniau o bob un o'r darlledwyr a beth maen nhw'n dangos ar hyn o bryd, gan gynnwys S4C. So, mae hynny'n enghraifft, efallai, o arfer da. Ond pan ŷch chi'n mynd i lwyfannau gyda darparwyr eraill, dyw'r amlygrwydd ddim mor amlwg, a byddwn i felly yn cryfhau beth mae Ofcom yn galw amdano fe, sef mwy o bwerau i sicrhau bod modd cael yr amlygrwydd hwnnw. Ond mae e'n gwestiwn rhyngwladol. Dyw e ddim yn rhywbeth gall jest y Deyrnas Unedig neu Gymru ei ddarparu. Mae'n rhaid i ni feddwl yn nhermau Ewropeaidd, ac efallai yn fyd-eang, yn wir, achos cyrff byd-eang yw cyrff fel Google ac Amazon ac yn y blaen, ac mae'n rhaid gallu cydweithio, dwi'n credu, â gwledydd ar draws y byd, yn wir, inni sicrhau'r math o amlygrwydd rwy'n credu eich bod chi'n sôn amdano fe.

That's a fair point, I think. The thing is that we have to ensure that, for example, on-demand services by broadcasters or content providers are available on all of the platforms, and that's going to be a huge challenge. There are examples given in Ofcom reports, for example, about how difficult it is to ensure that we have services—. Take, for example, Clic, the S4C on-demand service. You would want that to be available on every platform. Now, in terms of BT television, Clic is available as an app, as well as the other players, so in that case the prominence is there, and what's excellent is that, when you go to the homepage, you see a picture of all of the broadcasters and what they're showing at that time, including S4C. So, that's an example of good practice, perhaps. But, when you go to platforms provided by other providers, the prominence isn't there. So, I would strengthen what Ofcom is asking for, which is more powers to ensure that you can get that prominence. But it's an international question. It's not something that's just relevant to the UK or Wales. We have to think in European terms, and perhaps in global terms, because these bodies are global bodies, Google and Amazon and so on, and we need to be able to collaborate with nations worldwide to ensure the kind of prominence that I think you're talking about.

Roedd Caitriona eisiau dod i mewn, dwi'n meddwl. Os dŷn ni'n gallu dadfiwtio Caitriona. Grêt.

Caitriona wants to come in, I think. Can we unmute Caitriona? Great.

11:40

Yes, thank you. I think, Alun, you absolutely point out that we're talking about bringing in new stakeholders into this conversation, because we're bringing in the device manufacturers, and their territories, their markets don't map neatly onto national borders and onto regulations. So, I'm not sure that the answer to this will come from individual nations. But looking across at what other countries have been doing, there is no prominent way in which they're dealing with prominence as an issue; every country is taking very different approaches to this. Prominence isn't part of the EU's audiovisual media services directive, so each country, then, is asked to do their own kind of work on it.

Generally, I think countries are looking at two questions in relation to this. First of all, the criteria about what content is made prominent, and so, for some, it's obvious in terms of its public service broadcasting, but in countries like Germany, for instance, they've also made the decision to make some of their newspaper and journalistic content prominent and to have it under that framework. And then the second question that all countries are asking is, 'Well, what devices? Are we talking about tvs or are we extending it to devices like mobile phones, or are we talking about the internet more generally?' So, at the moment, there is no obvious answer emerging, and I think every country is having a lot of the same conversations that we're having, but thinking about those two questions about what do we want to be prominent and where do we want to make it. So, I don't have an easy answer, but I would just say that we're asking a lot of the same questions that other places are asking. 

It's not a nice, neat answer, I'm afraid.

Dwi'n meddwl ei fod yn dod yn bwysicach ac yn bwysicach, Alun. Rŷch chi'n chwifio'r ffôn, mae gen i remote control fan hyn, hefyd, ac, wrth gwrs, mae botymau penodol ar gyfer Netflix ac Amazon Prime ar y rheina hefyd. Unwaith rŷch chi mewn i'r gwasanaethau hynny, maen nhw'n gyndyn i adael i chi fynd, i'r pwynt lle maen nhw'n dweud, 'Are you sure you want to leave? Are you sure you want to exit?' Fe allech chi gael pennod arall o Squid Game i mewn a chael awr yn llai o gwsg. Maen nhw'n gweithredu mewn ffyrdd hollol, hollol, hollol wahanol, ond maen nhw hefyd yn gweithredu mewn ffyrdd lle maen nhw'n cydweithio rhywfaint nawr ac yn cyd-ariannu prosiectau mawr gyda darlledwyr cyhoeddus. Mae It's a Sin yn enghraifft benodol o hynny, a oedd yn cael ei gyd-ariannu gyda Channel 4. Ond maen nhw hefyd yn mynd fwy a mwy i mewn i diriogaethau gwahanol, gan ddweud eu bod nhw'n gallu cynhyrchu cynnwys sydd ddim yn annhebyg i gynnwys darlledwyr cyhoeddus. Gaf i ddarllen un peth byr iawn i chi fan hyn? Dyma restr siopa, os hoffech chi:

I think it's becoming increasingly important, Alun. You're waving the phone, I have a remote control here and, of course, there are specific buttons for Amazon Prime and Netflix on remote controls as well. Once you're in those services, they won't let you go to the point that they ask, 'Are you sure you want to leave? Are you sure you want to exit that programme?' and you could get another episode of Squid Game in and have an hour's less sleep. They work in completely different ways, but they also work in a way that they collaborate, to some extent, and they co-fund major projects with PSBs. It's a Sin is an example of that, which was co-funded by Channel 4. But they're also going more and more into new and different territories, saying that they can produce content that isn't dissimilar to the content provided by PSBs. May I read something out to you here? This is a shopping list, if you will:

'We're looking for stories that could be in the sporting, music or entertainment world; more human stories, unscripted thrillers that could be in the world of business, crime, medical, and big-issue programmes that connect with personal experiences, subjects such as body image or societal or political issues'.

Nawr, rhestr siopa yw honno. Rŷch chi'n clywed darnau ohono ac yn meddwl, 'O, mae hynny'n swnio fel Channel 4, neu allai hynny swnio fel ITV neu'r BBC'. Dyna chi restr siopa gan un o brif gomisiynwyr Disney. Nawr, nid yw Disney+ wedi bod o gwmpas am fwy na ryw ddwy flynedd; lansiwyd e yn Nhachwedd 2019, rwy'n credu. Dyna chi ymdrech penodol i wario mwy ar gynnwys sy'n debyg iawn o ran ei dôn. Rôn i'n clywed Elinor ar ddechrau'r sesiwn yn dweud bod darlledwyr cyhoeddus yn gwneud y math o gynnwys dyw subscription video-on-demand ddim yn ei wneud. Mae'r ffiniau hynny'n dechrau torri i lawr, ac mae'r enghraifft y clywsom ni ddoe ynglŷn â rygbi rhyngwladol yn enghraifft bellach o hynny. Gyda hynny, fel rhan o'r ddêl, oni ddylai fod bod yr SVODs yn rhoi amlygrwydd i peth o wasanaethau darlledwyr cyhoeddus, yn enwedig os ydyn nhw'n cyd-gomisiynu, yn cyd-ariannu, a'u bod nhw'n elwa? Fe welwch chi Channel 4 yn dweud, 'Mae'r SVODs yn dod i'r bwrdd ac yn disgwyl i'r holl hawliau am byth, i bob pwrpas, ac i'r cynnwys fod yn eu llyfrgelloedd ac ar eu llwyfannau nhw.' Dyw'r un hawliau, yn amlwg, ddim wedyn yn gallu cydfodoli gyda darlledwyr cyhoeddus. Un ffordd y mae ITV yn bwrw ati i drio cysoni yn hynny o beth yw eu bod yn dal ymlaen i'r hawliau i gynhyrchu'r fersiynau hynny. Felly, dwi'n meddwl, o weld y datblygiad anferth sy'n bodoli gyda'r SVODs, mae'n rhaid bod rhyw fantais yn dod yn sgil hynny i ddarlledwyr cyhoeddus, neu, dwi'n ofni, er mor bwysig a mor dda yw'r argymhellion yma, yn y tymor hir, mae'n mynd yn rhyw fath o decline management lle mae darlledu cyhoeddus yn y cwestiwn.

Now, that's a shopping list. You hear it and you think, 'Well, that sounds like Channel 4, that sounds like ITV, that sounds like the BBC'. That's a shopping list by one of the major commissioners of Disney. Now, Disney+ hasn't been around for much longer than two years; it was launched in November 2019, I think. That's a specific attempt to be spending more on content that is very similar in tone. I heard Elinor at the beginning of the session talking about the PSBs providing the kind of content that these other broadcasters don't. Well, those boundaries are starting to be eradicated and overcome, and the example we heard yesterday about international rugby is a further example of that. As part of the deal, shouldn't it be that the SVODs provide some of that prominence to the PSBs, especially if they co-produce and co-fund, and that they benefit? You'll see Channel 4 saying, 'Well, the SVODs are coming to the table and they expect all of the rights to be given to them forever and for the content to be available in their libraries and on their platforms.' Those same rights, then, can't co-exist with PSBs. One way that ITV goes about this in trying to square the circle is that they hold on to the rights to produce those versions. So, I think, in seeing the major development with the SVODs, there has to be some kind of advantage for public service broadcasters as a result of that, otherwise, I fear that, even though these recommendations are great, there will be some sort of decline management in the longer term as far as public service broadcasting is concerned.