Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

25/02/2021

Aelodau'r Pwyllgor a oedd yn bresennol

Committee Members in Attendance

Bethan Sayed MS Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor
Committee Chair
David Melding MS
Helen Mary Jones MS
John Griffiths MS
Mick Antoniw MS
Mike Hedges MS Yn dirprwyo ar ran Carwyn Jones
Substitute for Carwyn Jones

Y rhai eraill a oedd yn bresennol

Others in Attendance

Bethan Webb Llywodraeth Cymru
Welsh Government
Dr Jeremy Evas Llywodraeth Cymru
Welsh Government
Eluned Morgan MS Y Gweinidog Iechyd Meddwl, Llesiant a’r Gymraeg
Minister for Mental Health, Well-being and Welsh Language

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

Cyfarfu'r pwyllgor drwy gynhadledd fideo.

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:28.

The committee met by video-conference.

The meeting began at 09:28.

1. Cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datgan buddiannau
1. Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest

Diolch a chroeso i'r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu y bore yma, a chroeso i bawb sydd wedi dod atom heddiw.

Eitem 1 ar yr agenda yw cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon a datganiadau buddiannau. Yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 34.19, dwi wedi penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd rhag dod i'r cyfarfod yn bersonol er mwyn diogelu iechyd y cyhoedd. Mae Carwyn Jones wedi ymddiheuro a bydd Mike Hedges yn ymuno â ni yn ei le. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mike, am ddod i'r pwyllgor. A oes gan unrhyw un unrhyw beth i'w ddatgan yma heddiw? Na.

Thanks and welcome to this meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, and welcome to everyone who's joined us this morning.

Item 1 is introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I have determined that the public are excluded from attending the meeting in person in order to protect public health. Carwyn Jones has sent his apologies and Mike Hedges will be joining us in his place. Thank you for joining us, Mike. Does anyone have any declarations of interest? No.

2. Craffu ar waith y Gweinidog Iechyd Meddwl, Llesiant a’r Gymraeg
2. Scrutiny of the Minister for Mental Health, Well-being and the Welsh Language

Felly, symud ymlaen eto i eitem 2, sesiwn graffu gyffredinol ar waith y Gweinidog Iechyd Meddwl, Llesiant a'r Gymraeg, ac os ydw i'n iawn, ac os bydd yr etholiad ar y pryd y dylai fe fod ym mis Mai, hon fydd y sesiwn sgrwtini olaf. Os na, wedyn, pwy a ŵyr? Ond diolch i chi am eich gwaith yn y sector yma ac mae wedi bod yn bleser gweithio gyda chi yn y pwyllgor yma. A gobeithio y bydd y materion yma yr un mor bwysig yn y Senedd nesaf a bod y pwyllgor hwn yn parhau yn y Senedd nesaf. Ond croeso i'r Gweinidog, Eluned Morgan, a chroeso i Bethan Webb, dirprwy gyfarwyddwr, is-adran y Gymraeg, a hefyd i Jeremy Evas, pennaeth Prosiect 2050. Os hoffech chi gyflwyno'ch hunain ar gyfer y Cofnod, byddai hynna'n grêt ar gyfer y bore yma. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

So, we'll move on to item 2, which is a general scrutiny session on the work of the Minister for Mental Health, Well-being and Welsh Language, and if I'm right, and there is an election in May, then this will be our final scrutiny session with the Minister. If not, well, who knows? But thank you very much for your work in this sector and it's been a pleasure to work with you in this committee. I very much hope that these issues will be as important in the next Senedd and this committee will continue into the next Senedd, too. But a warm welcome to the Minister, Eluned Morgan, and to Bethan Webb, deputy director, Welsh language division, and Jeremy Evas, the head of the Prosiect 2050. If you'd like to introduce yourselves for the Record, that would be excellent. Thank you very much.

09:30
Member
Eluned Morgan MS 09:30:18
Minister for Mental Health, Well-being and Welsh Language

Bethan, hoffet ti fynd yn gyntaf?

Bethan, would you like to go first?

Ie. Bethan Webb, dirprwy gyfarwyddwr yr adran Gymraeg, Llywodraeth Cymru.

Yes. I'm Bethan Webb, deputy director, Welsh language division within Welsh Government.

Jeremy Evas, pennaeth Prosiect 2050, yn rhan o is-adran y Gymraeg gyda Bethan.

Jeremy Evas, head of Prosiect 2050, part of the Welsh language division with Bethan.

O, sori. Eluned Morgan, Gweinidog y Gymraeg, Llesiant ac Iechyd Meddwl.

And I'm Eluned Morgan, Minister for Mental Health, Well-being and the Welsh Language.

Gwell peidio ag anghofio hynny, ontefe? Grêt, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am wneud hynny. Fel sydd ein harfer fel pwyllgor, rydyn ni'n mynd yn syth i gwestiynau, os yw hynny'n iawn efo chi. Mae'r cwestiynau cyntaf heddiw gan Helen Mary Jones.

We shouldn't forget you, of course. Thank you very much. As usual, we will move immediately to questions, if that's okay with you, and the first questions this morning are from Helen Mary Jones.

Diolch, Cadeirydd, a bore da, pawb. Mae gyda fi i ddechrau gwestiwn eithaf eang ynglŷn â 'Cymraeg 2050', a jest gofyn am, a rhoi cyfle, i chi yn gyntaf, Gweinidog, i'n diweddaru ni ar fel mae pethau'n datblygu, pa progress sydd wedi bod, a sut mae pethau'n mynd gyda chyrraedd y targedau, gan ganolbwyntio ar yr action plan presennol, wrth gwrs, 2017 i 2021.

Thank you, Chair, and good morning. Now, I have quite a broad-ranging first question on 'Cymraeg 2050', so I'd just like to give you an opportunity first of all, Minister, to provide us with an update on how things are developing and progressing, what progress there's been, and how things are going generally with meeting your targets, focusing on the current action plan, of course, the 2017 to 2021 action plan.

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr. Cyn i fi ddechrau, gaf i jest dweud diolch i chi fel pwyllgor am eich holl waith chi yma dros y blynyddoedd? Diolch yn arbennig i Bethan. Does dim un ohonom ni'n gwybod pwy sy'n dod nôl y tro nesaf, ond rydyn ni'n gwybod na fyddi di'n dod nôl, ac dwi jest eisiau gwneud yn siŵr eich bod chi'n deall faint rŷn ni'n gwerthfawrogi'ch gwaith chi yn y maes yma. So, diolch yn fawr i chi, a diolch i'r pwyllgor yn ehangach, hefyd—dwi'n gwybod bod pobl eraill ar y pwyllgor na fydd yn dod nôl, chwaith. Diolch hefyd i Helen Mary am gymryd yr awenau yn ystod eich cyfnod mamolaeth chi.

Jest o ran 'Cymraeg 2050', dwi'n meddwl bod yn rhaid inni gofio pa mor radical oedd y syniad yma o gael targed o miliwn o siaradwyr. Dwi'n meddwl bod hynny wedi cydio yn nychymyg pobl Cymru, a beth rŷn ni'n ei weld yw sifft nawr mewn meddylfryd pobl Cymru o ran beth yw ein cyfeiriad ni a beth rŷn ni'n treial ei wneud. Felly, yn ystod y dyddiau cynnar yma, beth roedden ni eisiau ei wneud oedd sicrhau bod y seilwaith mewn lle fel ein bod ni'n gallu cyrraedd y targedau mor hirdymor yna. So, beth rŷn ni wedi bod yn ei wneud yw sicrhau ein bod ni'n datblygu'r capasiti cynllunio, yn arbennig o ran y seilwaith strwythurol yna ar gyfer addysg Gymraeg. Mae hwnna wedi bod yn hollbwysig, ein bod ni'n dechrau yn fanna a'n bod ni'n deall yr unig ffordd rŷn ni'n mynd i gyrraedd y targed yma yw os rŷn ni'n gweld gweddnewid yn y niferoedd sy'n mynychu ysgolion Cymraeg.

Y peth arall rŷn ni wedi bod yn ei wneud yw datblygu capasiti cynllunio ieithyddol, ac rŷn ni wedi bod yn edrych ar sut rŷn ni'n cael pobl yng Nghymru i deimlo bod yr iaith yma yn perthyn i ni i gyd, fel dydyn ni ddim yn gweld 'pobl sy'n siarad Cymraeg' a 'phobl sydd ddim yn siarad Cymraeg'. Mae'n rhaid i bob un teimlo bod hwn yn berthyn iddyn nhw, ac mae'r ffordd rŷn ni'n siarad am y Gymraeg yn rili bwysig yn hyn o beth, ac rŷn ni wedi gwneud lot o analysis ynglŷn â sut mae pobl yn teimlo, ac roedd lot o bobl yn teimlo eu bod nhw'n cael eu torri allan. Felly, mae'r iaith rŷn ni'n ei defnyddio'n hollbwysig pan ydyn ni'n siarad am y Gymraeg, ac rŷn ni wedi bod yn treial defnyddio'r iaith yna i fod yn lot mwy inclusive. Rŷn ni wedi bod yn cryfhau'r dystiolaeth sydd ar gael, ac rŷn ni wedi bod yn datblygu, yn sicr, y niferoedd o blant sy'n mynd i ysgolion Cymraeg, yn dechrau, wrth gwrs, gydag ysgolion meithrin. So, mae 452 o ysgolion meithrin nawr, ond mae targed gyda ni o 40 o ysgolion meithrin newydd. Erbyn diwedd y flwyddyn yma, rŷn ni'n gobeithio bydd 46, felly byddwn ni wedi mynd tu hwnt i'n targed ni ar hwnna.  

O ran addysg, rŷn ni efallai'n teimlo na fyddwn ni cweit yn cyrraedd y targed o ran niferoedd mewn ysgolion Cymraeg, y rheini sy'n saith mlwydd oed. Felly, roedd targed o 24 y cant gyda ni; rŷn ni'n meddwl bod yna le i gredu, yn y blynyddoedd nesaf, bydd y plant ieuangaf, y niferoedd sy'n mynd i ysgolion Cymraeg—bod 23.5 y cant yn mynd i ysgolion Cymraeg. Felly, rŷn ni'n hyderus y byddwn ni'n ei chyrraedd hi cyn bo hir, ond ar hyn o bryd rŷn ni efallai yn annhebygol o gyrraedd y targed yna o 24 y cant y flwyddyn yma, ond rŷn ni ar y trac cywir. Wrth gwrs, rŷn ni wedi bod yn datblygu'r cynlluniau strategol Cymraeg mewn addysg; mae hwnna wedi bod yn gam pwysig ymlaen, ac mae'r ffaith ein bod ni nawr yn edrych ar gynlluniau tymor hir dwi'n meddwl yn hollbwysig. Mae'n mynd i fod yn drawsnewidiol. Wrth gwrs, mae lot o waith wedi cael ei wneud i ddarbwyllo cynghorau lleol, er enghraifft, i sicrhau bod nhw'n deall, 'Dyma'r strategaeth, dyma'r ffordd rŷn ni'n disgwyl i chi fynd.' Nid yw hwnna yn rhywbeth rydych chi'n gallu switsio ymlaen—mae hwnna'n cymryd lot o waith, a dwi'n gwybod bod ein adran ni wedi gwneud lot o waith yn y maes yna. 

O ran y Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol, mae'r ffocws wedi newid ychydig i fod ar Gymraeg yn y gweithle, ac felly rŷn ni wedi gweld 10,000 o bobl yn cymryd lan y cyfle yna o ddysgu Cymraeg yn y gweithle. Rŷn ni wedi sicrhau ein bod ni'n dechrau Prosiect 2050, cynllunio ieithyddol ar draws y Llywodraeth, a dwi'n falch bod Jeremy yma heddiw, sydd yn bennaeth ar hwnna. Wrth gwrs, o ran y Llywodraeth, mae'r Llywodraeth nawr wedi ei gwneud hi'n glir ein bod ni yn mynd i fod yn faes lle mae disgwyl bydd Llywodraeth Cymru a'r bobl sy'n gweithio ynddi yn fudiad dwyieithog erbyn 2050, sydd hefyd yn nod sy'n bellgyrhaeddol, ond dwi'n meddwl mai'r pwynt yw bod yna strategaeth yna ac mae yna ffocws ar hwnna. Rŷn ni wedi sicrhau bod arweinwyr Llywodraeth Cymru yn deall beth yw arwain mewn byd dwyieithog trwy Academi Wales, so mae hwnna'n bwynt pwysig hefyd. 

Hefyd, yn rhynglwadol—a dwi'n meddwl bod hwn yn bwysig, yn arbennig achos cawsom ni flwyddyn ryngwladol ieithoedd lleiafrifol UNESCO—mae yna ddealltwriaeth ein bod ni yn gallu arwain yn y maes yma yn rhyngwladol. Ac mae'r ffaith, er enghraifft, fod yr Urdd wedi gallu gwneud eu neges heddwch nhw ac wedi cyrraedd 37 miliwn o bobl wedi sicrhau bod ein llais ni yn cael ei glywed ar draws y byd. 

Polisi trosglwyddo'r iaith o fewn teuluoedd—fe fyddwch chi'n ymwybodol bod hwnna newydd gael ei gyhoeddi, ac rŷn ni wedi gwneud lot o ran gweithredu technoleg yn y Gymraeg, sydd, wrth gwrs, wedi bod yn hollbwysig yn ystod y cyfnod yma.

Fis nesaf—felly un o'r pethau olaf fyddaf i'n ei wneud yn y maes yma cyn yr etholiad—byddaf yn cyhoeddi ymgynghoriad ar bolisi drafft o ran seilwaith ieithyddol y Gymraeg, felly, yn edrych ar y gwahanol eiriaduron sydd gennym ni a gweld eu bod nhw'n cydweithio i sicrhau bod pobl yn gwybod lle i gael access, a'u bod nhw'n gallu defnyddio'r strwythurau sydd ar gael i'w helpu nhw gyda'r Gymraeg yn well. 

Dwi wedi comisiynu gwaith ar ail gartrefi, a bydd hwnna yn cael ei gyhoeddi'n ffurfiol y mis yma ac, wrth gwrs, rŷn ni wedi bod yn gwneud lot o waith yn ein cyngor partneriaeth ni, sydd wedi bod, dwi'n meddwl, yn help aruthrol i fi yn bersonol o ran sicrhau bod arbenigwyr gennym ni yn helpu ni mas yn y maes yna. 

Felly, dwi'n meddwl, yn gyffredinol—. Wrth gwrs, mae COVID hefyd wedi cael effaith, ac mae'n rhaid inni gofio hynny, ond dwi'n meddwl ei bod hi'n werth tanlinellu nad yw ein blaenoriaethau strategol wedi newid. Ond, wrth gwrs, bydd lot mwy o waith yn cael ei wneud nawr o ran Cymraeg yn y gymuned. So, sori bod hwnna bach yn hir, ond rŷn ni wedi bod yn brysur. 

Great. Thank you very much, and, before I begin, may I just thank you as a committee for all of your work on this issue over the years? A particular thanks to Bethan. None of us know who's coming back next time, but we do know that you won't be back, and I just want to put on record just how much we appreciate your work in this area. So, thank you very much, and thank you to the committee as a whole, too. I know that there are others on the committee who won't be returning, either, but also thank you to Helen Mary for taking the reins during your maternity leave, Chair.

Now, in terms of 'Cymraeg 2050', I think we need to bear in mind just how radical this idea was of having a million Welsh speakers as a target, and I do think that it grabbed people's attention in Wales. What we've seen is that shift in the mindset of the people in Wales in terms of our direction of travel and what we're seeking to do. So, during these early days, what we were seeing to do was to ensure that the infrastructure was in place so that we could meet our longer term targets. So, what we've been doing is ensuring that we develop the planning capacity, particularly in terms of that structural infrastructure for Welsh-language education. That's been crucially important—that we start there, and that we understand that the only way we're going to meet these targets is if we do see a transformation in the numbers attending Welsh-medium schools.

Another thing we've been doing is developing language planning capacity, and we've been looking at how we encourage people in Wales to feel that this language belongs to us all, so that we don't see distinct groups of 'Welsh speakers' and 'non-Welsh speakers'. Everyone needs to feel that the Welsh language belongs to them, and the way that we talk about the Welsh language is very important in this regard, and we've done a great deal of analysis on how people feel, and many people felt that they were being excluded, and so the language that we use is crucially important when we talk about the Welsh language, and we have been trying to use that language and be far more inclusive. We've been strengthening the evidence base available, and we have been certainly developing the numbers of children attending Welsh-medium schools, starting with the early years sector. So, there are 452 early years settings now. We have a target of 40 new settings. By the end of this year, we hope to have established 46, so we will have exceeded that target.

In terms of education, we perhaps feel that we won't quite reach our target in terms of the numbers attending Welsh-medium education at seven years old. There was a target of 24 per cent. We believe that there is reason to believe that, over the next few years, for the youngest children, 23.5 per cent will be going to Welsh-medium education. So, I'm confident that we'll reach that target soon, but at the moment we are perhaps unikely to reach that target of 24 per cent this year, but we are certainly on the right track. And we have been developing the Welsh in education strategic plans; that has been an important step forward, and the fact that we are now looking at long-term planning will be crucially important and transformational. There's been a great deal of work done to convince local authorities to ensure that they understand, 'This is the strategy, and this is the direction we intend you to travel in.' That's not something you can just switch on—that takes a great deal of work, and my department's done a great deal of work in this area.

In terms of the National Centre for Learning Welsh, the focus has shifted slightly to look more at Welsh in the workplace, and so we've seen 10,000 people taking up that opportunity of learning Welsh in the workplace. We have ensured that we have started Prosiect 2050, language planning across Government, and I'm pleased Jeremy is here today; he's the head of that project. In terms of Government, the Government itself has made it clear that we will be an organisation where there's an expectation that the Welsh Government and those working within the Government will be a bilingual organisation by 2050, which is also a far-reaching target, but I think the point is that there is a strategy in place and there is a focus on that. We have ensured that leaders within Welsh Government understand what it is to lead in a bilingual context through Academi Wales, so that's also an important point.

Also, internationally—and I think this is important, particularly as we had the UNESCO international year of minority languages—there is an understanding that we can take a lead in this area on the international stage. And the fact that the Urdd has been able to reach 37 million people with its message of peace and goodwill does mean that our voice is being heard across the world.

In terms of language transmission within families, you will be aware that that policy has just been published, and we've done a great deal in terms of Welsh language technology, which has been crucially important during this period.

Next month, one of the last things I'll do in post prior to the election will be to announce a consultation on draft policy in terms of Welsh language infrastructure, so looking at the various dictionaries and glossaries that we have, ensuring that they work together and that people know where to access these materials so that they can use the structures available to help them make better use of the Welsh language.  

I've commissioned work on second homes, and that will be formally published this month and, of course, we've done a great deal of work in terms of our partnership council, which has been a huge help to me personally in terms of ensuring that we have specialists helping us out in this area. 

So, I think in general terms—. Of course, COVID has had an impact—we can't forget that—but I do think it's worth highlighting that our strategic priorities haven't changed. But, of course, there will be a lot more work done now in terms of Welsh in the community. So, sorry, that was quite a lengthy answer, but we have been busy.

09:35

Diolch. Dwi'n falch—ac, rwy'n siŵr, pawb yn y pwyllgor—o glywed am y pethau sydd wedi cael eu cyflawni. Ond un man lle nad yw'r targed wedi cael ei gyrraedd, wrth gwrs, yw cynyddu faint o athrawon sydd yn medru dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, a hoffwn i glywed oddi wrthoch chi ynglŷn â pham rydych chi'n meddwl bod hynna wedi digwydd. Rwy'n gwybod bod yna sgyrsiau wedi bod rhyngoch chi, y Gweinidog Addysg, y Comisiynydd y Gymraeg a'r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol ynglŷn â'r cynllun i greu mwy o athrawon sydd yn medru dysgu drwy'r Gymraeg. So, hoffwn i glywed beth oedd wedi digwydd o ganlyniad i'r trafodaethau yna. 

Thank you. I'm sure everyone on the committee is pleased to hear what's been delivered, but one target that hasn't been met, of course, is increasing the numbers of teachers able to teach through the medium of Welsh, and I would like to hear from you as to why that was the case. I know that there have been conversations between yourself, the Minister for Education, the Welsh Language Commissioner and the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol on the plan to have more teachers able to teach through the medium of Welsh. So, I would like to hear what happened as a result of those discussions. 

Diolch, Helen Mary. Jest i'w gwneud hi'n glir, dydyn ni ddim wedi cyrraedd y targed yma achos diffyg ymdrech; rŷn ni wedi bod yn gweithio'n aruthrol o galed yn y maes yma. Gobeithio eich bod chi wedi gweld y llythyr sydd wedi dod i'r pwyllgor yn dangos y naw pwynt gweithredu rŷn ni'n ei wneud yn y maes yma yn unig i geisio cryfhau nifer yr athrawon sydd yn dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly, mae lot o ymdrech wedi mynd mewn, ond rŷn ni, wrth gwrs, yn siomedig nad ydyn ni wedi cyrraedd y targed yna, ac rŷn ni'n ymwybodol iawn bod angen inni wneud lot mwy o waith yn y maes yma.

Thank you, Helen Mary. Just to make it clear, we haven't reached this target as a result of a lack of effort; we have been working incredibly hard in this area. I hope you will have seen the letter provided to the committee demonstrating the nine action points in this area alone in order to seek to enhance the numbers of teachers teaching through the medium of Welsh. So, there has been a great deal of effort made, but of course we are disappointed that we haven't reached that target and we are highly aware that we need to do a lot more work.

09:40

Os gallaf i jest camu i mewn am eiliad, dwi ddim yn amau am funud fod y gwaith wedi cael ei wneud, ond oes gyda chi asesiad pam dyw e ddim wedi bod yn llwyddiannus hyd yn hyn? Os yw lot o ymdrech yn mynd mewn a dyw e ddim yn cyrraedd y targed dŷn ni i gyd eisiau eich gweld chi'n cyrraedd fel Llywodraeth, mae eisiau deall beth yw'r blocs, pam dyw'r holl waith yna ddim yn delifro fel byddwch chi, a byddem ni i gyd, wrth gwrs, yn gobeithio.

If I could just step in there, I don't doubt for one minute that that work has been done, but do you have any assessment as to why it hasn't been successful to date? If a great deal of effort is being made and it isn't delivering the targets that we all want to see delivered, then we need to understand why. What are the barriers? Why is that work not delivering as you, and we all, would want to see?

Beth dŷn ni wedi ei ffeindio yw, wrth gwrs, ein bod ni ddim yn recriwtio digon o fyfyrwyr sydd eisiau bod yn athrawon, felly mae'r rhaid i chi fynd yn ôl: 'Beth yw'r cam cyn hynny?' Dyna beth rŷn ni wedi bod yn ei wneud: yn mynd nôl, 'Beth yw'r cam cyn hynny?', ac wrth gwrs dyna un o'r rhesymau pam rŷn ni wedi sicrhau ein bod ni wedi rhoi £150,000 yn ychwanegol i geisio cael mwy o bobl i wneud lefel A, ond efallai bydd yn rhaid inni fynd yn ôl cyn hynny eto. Felly, dyna'r broblem. Mae'n rhaid ichi edrych beth yw'r ffynnel cyn eich bod chi'n cyrraedd y prifysgolion a'r niferoedd sydd eisiau mynd i'r Gymraeg.

Wrth gwrs, cofiwch, dyw hyn ddim yn rhywbeth sydd yn unigryw i'r Gymraeg. Mae pobl sy'n dysgu drwy gyfrwng y Saesneg hefyd, maen nhw'n stryglo i recriwtio hefyd. Dwi'n meddwl, efallai, dyw'r proffesiwn dysgu ddim yn cael ei weld fel rhywbeth sydd cweit mor ddeniadol ag roedd hi'n cael ei gweld yn y gorffennol, felly rŷm ni'n brwydro yn erbyn problem byd eang yma, ac felly dyw hwnna ddim yn rhywbeth sy'n unigryw. Ond, wrth gwrs, allwn ni ddim cyrraedd ein targedau ni oni bai ein bod ni'n gweld symudiad yn y tir yma. Felly, jest o ran beth sy'n digwydd nesaf, dwi'n gwybod bod y Gweinidog Addysg wedi bod yn gweithio gyda Cyngor y Gweithlu Addysg, gyda Chymdeithas Ysgolion Dros Addysg Gymraeg, gyda'r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, gyda Comisiynydd y Gymraeg, i ddatblygu cynllun 10 mlynedd fydd yn cymryd ni lan at y targedau 2031. Bydd hwnna yn cyd-fynd â'r amserlen sydd mewn lle ar gyfer y WESPs. Felly, y syniad yw byddwn ni'n gallu gweld beth sydd ei angen. Wrth gwrs, gallwn ni ddechrau gydag ysgolion cynradd lle rŷn ni'n cael llai o broblem yn recriwtio, ac wedyn, gobeithio, erbyn i ni gyrraedd y pwynt yna lle mae lot mwy o bobl yn dod trwy'r system, byddwn ni wedi cracio'r system yma. Ond—

What we've found, of course, is that we're not recruiting enough students who want to be teachers, so you have to go back a step. That's what we've been doing, looking at those early steps, and that's one of the reasons why we've ensured that we have provided £150,000 in addition to encourage people to study A-level, but we may need to take a step back even further. So, that's the problem. You have to look at the funnel, the pipeline, before you reach universities and the numbers that you want to see teaching through the medium of Welsh.

Do bear in mind that this isn't unique to the Welsh language. People teaching through the medium of English, there's a struggle in recruitment there too. I think the teaching profession isn't perhaps as attractive as it was perceived to be in the past, so we are fighting a global problem here, and so this isn't something that's unique to us. But, of course, we can't deliver our targets unless we see movement in the right direction in this area. So, in terms of the next steps, I know that the Minister for Education has been working with the Education Workforce Council, with CYDAG, the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and the Welsh Language Commissioner to develop a 10-year plan, which will take us up to the 2031 targets. That will run alongside the timetable in place for the WESPs. So, the idea is that we will be able to see what's required. Of course, we can start with the primary sector, where we have fewer problems in recruitment, and then we hope, by the time we get to that point, there will be far more people coming through the system and we will have cracked this. But—

Sori, Gweinidog. Mae Mike Hedges—. Cyn i chi symud ymlaen, ydy e'n iawn i Mike Hedges ofyn—

I do apologise, Minister. Before you move on, Mike Hedges wants to ask—

—cwestiwn ychwanegol? Mike.

—a supplementary question. Mike.

Yes. First of all, can I declare an interest? My daughter is a potential Welsh-medium teacher in the near future. Do you not accept—and it's not your responsibility, it's the responsibility of the Minister for Education—that the fact that supply teachers are treated so appallingly within the system, a lot of people are put off entering education and becoming teachers because of that? A lot start off as supply teachers, they end up working for an agency, they get treated appallingly by those agencies, and they either drop out of being teachers or they don't even take it up in the first place. Now, that's not your responsibility—that's the responsibility of the Minister for Education—but that is having an effect on people taking up teaching.

Cyn i chi ateb, mae gan David Melding gwestiwn hefyd, felly os ydych chi'n gallu cymryd y ddau ohonyn nhw, byddai hynny yn grêt. Diolch, David.

Before you respond, I think David Melding has a question too, so if you could take both questions together, that would be great. Thanks, David.

Diolch yn fawr, Cadeirydd. Minister, I just want to clarify, when these priorities and targets were set a few years ago, whether you or your colleagues had any knowledge of these deep-seated global trends that are deterring young people from taking up the teaching profession.

Diolch. So, first of all, on the supply teacher side, first of all, Mike, I would absolutely encourage your daughter to become a teacher. We are absolutely desperate, and if she could become a secondary school teacher that would be particularly marvellous. I know she's a Welsh speaker and an expert in music, so that would be extremely welcome. So, I would encourage her to do that. On the supply side, Mike, as you say, this is the responsibility of the Minister for Education, but I know that there have been issues in that space and there probably is a need to do some work in that space. But, at the end of the day, we're not looking at trying to recruit more supply teachers; we want to have teachers who are committed, absolutely full-time, to the profession. I do think that there is a broader issue here that we need to address, and that brings me on to David Melding's question. One of the first things I did as the Minister for the Welsh language was to publish 'Y Gymraeg mewn addysg', the Welsh in education strategy, which set out all of these issues. Of course, we were aware that there was an issue at the time, which is why we've put these additional steps in, which are beyond what's happening in English—these additional nine steps that have been set out in the letter that was sent to you—because we knew that we had to go over and above whatever was being done in the English-medium sector. 

09:45

Diolch. Helen Mary Jones, ydych chi eisiau dod nôl?

Thank you. Helen Mary Jones, did you have any further questions?

Na, dwi wedi rhoi'r ddau gwestiwn at ei gilydd, so dwi'n hapus i symud ymlaen. 

No, I put two questions together, so I'm happy to move on. 

Jest i grynhoi hyn, felly, gan mai'r sesiwn olaf yw hwn, beth yn wahanol ydych chi'n mynd i'w wneud er mwyn ceisio mynd i'r afael â'r sefyllfa yma? Rwy'n clywed beth rydych chi'n ei ddweud am fynd yn ôl cam i lefel A, neu i'r cam cyn hynny, ond oes yna bethau y byddech chi'n eu newid er mwyn datblygu yr hyn rydych chi eisiau gwneud o ran cael mwy o bobl i mewn i'r sector? Er enghraifft, dwi'n ymwybodol bod y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol wedi dweud wrthyf i y bydden nhw'n hoffi arwain ar yr agenda yma, a bod yn lle lle mae nhw'n gallu creu'r strategaeth ei hunain. A oes mwy o drafodaethau sydd angen eu cael yn y maes yma?

Just to summarise this, as this is our final session, what are you going to do differently in order to try and tackle this situation? I hear what you're saying in taking a step back and looking at A-level, or even before A-level, but are there things that you would change in order to develop what you're doing in encouraging more people to enter the sector? For example, I'm aware that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol have told me that they would like to lead on this agenda, and that this is an area where they can create their own strategy. Are more discussions necessary in this area?

Oes, yn sicr, a dwi'n meddwl bod y trafodaethau yna yn mynd ymlaen nawr. Dwi'n meddwl bod y ffaith bod Cyngor y Gweithlu Addysg nawr yn deall mai eu cyfrifoldeb nhw yw e i gymryd yr awenau ar hwn—dwi'n meddwl bod hwnna, gobeithio, yn mynd i wneud gwahaniaeth. Dwi yn meddwl bod yna syniadau eraill gyda ni o ran efallai cynlluniau peilot y byddem ni'n licio dechrau. Dwi'n awyddus, er enghraifft, i weld os gallwn ni gael pobl ifanc sydd wedi mynd i ffwrdd i'r brifysgol i ddod nôl i helpu yn rhai o'n hysgolion ni, efallai ar ôl iddyn nhw orffen y tymor, jest fel eu bod nhw'n helpu am y mis olaf, fel eu bod nhw'n cael syniad o fyd addysg, ac efallai dod yn ôl i'w cymunedau nhw. Felly, rŷn ni'n edrych ar gynlluniau peilot fel yna, efallai a fydd yn agor llygaid graddedigion, neu bobl sydd yn israddedigion, i'r syniad o fynd i mewn i ddysgu trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Mae yna syniadau eraill, ond os oes syniadau gyda phobl eraill, rŷn ni'n barod iawn i wrando arnyn nhw. 

Certainly, yes, and I do think that those conversations are happening now. I think the fact that the Education Workforce Council now understands that it's their responsibility to take the reigns on this—I think that that, hopefully, will make a difference. There are other ideas that we have in terms of possible pilot schemes that we would like to put in place. I'm eager, for example, to see if we can encourage young people who've gone away to university to return to help in some of our schools perhaps when their term ends, so that they help for the last month of term, for example, so that they have an idea of how education works and that they can come back to their community. So, we're looking at pilot schemes such as those that would perhaps open the eyes of graduates, or undergraduates, to the idea of entering the education profession and teaching through the medium of Welsh. There are other ideas, but if others have ideas, then we're more than willing to listen to those too, of course. 

Iawn. Diolch yn fawr iawn am hynny. Dŷn ni'n symud ymlaen, felly, at y cynllun sabothol iaith Gymraeg, ac mae John Griffiths yn arwain ar y cwestiynau yma. Diolch, John.

Okay. Thank you very much for that. We'll move on to the Welsh language sabbatical scheme, and John Griffiths has some questions. Thank you, John. 

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd, a bore da, Weinidog. 

Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister. 

Starting off, then, with evaluation, Minister, the last evaluation was several years ago, and that noted that there was no real measurement of the impact of the scheme on attainment, on how well pupils and schools' results fared as a result of the scheme. So, will the current evaluation address those issues?

The evaluation will be published, we hope, on 16 March, so not long to wait now until we see what that has to say. There are two aims of the evaluation. First of all, it's to examine how, and to what extent, the sabbatical scheme contributes in the way that Welsh is taught, and the way it's used as a teaching medium in schools. I know from going to visit the year-long sabbatical scheme that there's been a lot of work done on pedagogy and how the Welsh language is taught, and I think that's something that will be quite useful for us to look at. Then the second thing is to assess the contribution of the scheme to the professional development provision for those people who are trying to teach through the medium of Welsh.

In terms of the impact on the students themselves, that has not been a part of the evaluation, and it is actually quite difficult to assess that because there are lots of external factors. It's very difficult to say 'And it was because these teachers went back into the classroom that this happened.' Now, we don't collect the data from key stage 2 and key stage 3, so we have to wait until a lot later, and, of course, by then, it's difficult to assess what were the issues that impacted on the abilities of those children. So, in that sense, it won't be focusing on that, but what it will do is see how the teachers benefited from the scheme and it will hopefully give an insight into whether they feel that the pupils have benefited as a result. 

09:50

I accept that it's often very difficult to show cause and effect, Minister, and sometimes it's perhaps more a matter of correlation, but that last evaluation did seem to state that there's a gap and that there wasn't sufficient monitoring and mechanisms to show the impact of the scheme in terms of school and pupil results. That seemed to be identified as a gap. That's a gap, then, that isn't going to be addressed.

We've got to remember why it was set up in the first place. It does address the wider policy context of 'Cymraeg 2050' and the fact that we have now our national mission and what we're hoping to do in this space. It will look at what is it that led teachers to want to participate in this scheme and also how they plan to use those skills in the future, how to improve teaching and learning. I do think that there's a lot of work to be done in this space, in particular in relation to teaching Welsh as a second language in non-Welsh-speaking schools. I'm very concerned about the work that we need to do in that space.

Okay. If we move on, Minister, in terms of the context within which the evaluation takes place, will we see, when that report is published, an evaluation within the context of school improvement plans and Welsh in education strategic plans, again, with that aim of raising attainment amongst learners?

I think if you look at the Welsh in education strategic plans, what we're looking for there is a plan of where we want to head in future. And what we'll need to do then is to recognise where the gaps are in terms of the number of teachers that we'll need. So, there will be then that discussion, we hope, that will go on between the local councils, which will be able to identify where the gaps are, and then with the Education Workforce Council, to make sure that we're plugging those gaps as far as possible. And some of that work is already being done. I know that Carmarthenshire, for example, has gone a long way to try and identify where the gaps are. Then we can start filling those gaps and looking and making sure that the training is put in place to shift some of these schools. And let's not forget, we've got a commitment here to move from 20 per cent of our children going to Welsh language schools to 40 per cent within the next few decades. That's going to take a lot of work, and we're going to have to bring parents with us, but we're going to have to bring the teaching community with us as well.

Okay. Would you accept, Minister, that the language skills of those who undertake the sabbaticals are often quite limited, really, and that they need encouragement to further develop their language skills after completion of the sabbatical period? There's not much support in place at the moment, or perhaps not enough, to encourage that further development of language skills.

We're aware that this was a criticism that was levelled at the scheme very early on, and that's why measures have been put in place to try and plug that gap. What's happened now is that the regional consortia and the local authorities are now expected to give support after completion of the sabbatical schemes. There's a bespoke and tailored approach to each individual teacher so that we can plan in relation to the Welsh language within their school. There is a network of people who come together who've been on the scheme so that they can share best practice. There are mentoring schemes now. There's continuing professional development in terms of the Welsh language and the Curriculum for Wales and developing that. And the other thing is that there's a real effort to keep in touch with the headteachers, just to make sure that they are taking advantage of the fact that we've put in a lot of investment into these people, and that they need to be using it. Then the other point that we've done is to make sure, where possible, that they will link up to a Welsh-medium school so that they get that opportunity to practice the Welsh language. Of course, there are different levels of ability. The people I met on the sabbatical scheme who were there for a year—my God, their language skills were excellent. There are other people who go for three-week or shorter periods and, of course, their language skills need a lot of improvement. So, there are big varieties within the sabbatical scheme.

09:55

We've heard evidence, haven't we, that there hasn't been enough progress in terms of increasing the number of teachers able to teach through the medium of Welsh, and this scheme is one way of trying to address that. Do you think there's now a need for a more systematic approach to this particular scheme to ensure that, right across Wales, it's effective and it has the necessary investment?

I think what we need to look at is really what's the purpose of this particular scheme, and I'm not sure if the purposes of this particular scheme was to increase recruitment specifically. Some of this was about increasing the confidence of teachers who perhaps speak Welsh reasonably well, but don't feel confident enough to use it in the classroom. This is what we're trying to address in this space. In particular, there are certain regions, like my region for example, where Welsh is spoken very often in the home, but when it comes to formal Welsh, they really panic. So, it's giving people that confidence to think, 'No, I can do this.' I think we've got to remember that that was really what we were trying to look at here, but also, in those non-Welsh-speaking schools, to give a bit more support. There are schools in Wales where there are very few people who are able to speak Welsh, and we've just got to give them the support that we can, and to try and see how we can spread that out within schools. Getting a champion within the school is really important, especially in those non-Welsh-speaking schools.

Diolch yn fawr, Weinidog.

Thank you very much, Minister. 

Diolch. Jest er fy ngwybodaeth i—efallai dylwn i wybod, ond dwi ddim—pam nad ydych chi'n casglu'r data? Rydych chi'n dweud eich bod chi ddim yn gwybod achos eich bod chi ddim yn casglu'r data. Ydy hynny yn rhywbeth mae'r Gweinidog Addysg wedi'i benderfynu neu rydych chi wedi'i benderfynu? Yn eich ateb cynharach i John Griffiths, Weinidog.

Just for my own information—perhaps I should know, but I don't—why don't you gather that dada? You said that you didn't know because you don't collect the data. Is that a decision made by the education Minister or your decision? You mentioned it in an earlier response to John Griffiths.

Y data ynglŷn â beth?

Which data are you talking about?

Ynglŷn â chyfnod 2 a 3. Roeddech chi wedi dweud ar y cychwyn, mewn ateb i John Griffiths, eich bod chi ddim yn cofnodi'r data rhagor er mwyn gallu gwybod os oes yna gapiau yna.

The data on stages 2 and 3. I think you mentioned at the outset, in response to John Griffiths, that you weren't recording that data in order to know if there are gaps.

Dwi ddim yn meddwl bod yna broblem mewn casglu data. Jest o ran beth rŷn ni'n ei wneud yn y maes yma, rŷn ni'n gwybod pwy sydd wedi bod ar y cwrs, rŷn ni'n gwybod ble maen nhw'n mynd yn ôl iddi, felly dwi ddim yn meddwl bod yna broblem o ran casglu data. 

I don't think there's a problem in gathering data. Just in terms of what we're doing in this area, we know who's been on the course, we know where they're returning to after the course, so I don't think there's any problem in terms of data gathering.

Ocê. Wel, mi wnawn ni edrych ar y record. Fe wnes i ei ysgrifennu fe i lawr er mwyn cofio ei ofyn e. Mi wnawn ni ysgrifennu os oes yna rywbeth dŷn ni eisiau ei siecio. 

Okay. We'll check the record. I made a note, so I did want to ask that question. But we will write to you if there is anything that we want to clarify.

Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn. O ran y cwestiynau nesaf, David Melding  sy'n arwain ar y Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol a'r sector ôl-16. 

Thank you very much. Our next questions are from David Melding around the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol and the post-16 sector. 

Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd. I think when the Welsh Government announced that the coleg would have its role expanded into post-16 education—this was relatively early in this Senedd, December 2017—there was a widespread welcome for that. And then a year later, December 2018, the action plan was published. I just wonder what your assessment is of how that action plan has started to be implemented and just where were are with this important area, really, of social and work-based learning and the ability to have more of that through the medium of Welsh.

Thanks, David. I remember one of the very first meetings of the council that advises me on the Welsh language, and I was really stunned to see the drop-off in the number of people who spoke the Welsh language post 16. So, we put all of these kids through Welsh language schools and then, suddenly, a lot of them left and they weren't happy to tick the box, then, in relation to whether they speak Welsh. So, clearly, this was an area that needed to be addressed, and I'm really pleased that the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol has helped us to really look at that area.

It's very early days still in this space, and that's why what we've had to do in relation to this is to look at what we prioritise within this space and what are the areas that we're going to push on. So, what's happened now is that the coleg Cymraeg is making sure that there are going to be two full-time tutors for the areas of health, childcare and public administration. So, we're just focusing on those areas where we know that there will be a public interaction. So, we're pleased that that's started, and the idea is that we're going to target about 2,000 people who have been through a Welsh language school who want to learn Welsh through this way. So, in terms of targets, as you say, this was something that came a bit later rather than being a key part of that programme that we set up within Welsh in education. So, it's something that we've recognised since then, that we've needed to plug the gap. But I do think it's early days on this.

I was really pleased to be able to meet recently with some ambassadors from Coleg Cambria, who are doing a great job, because, as far as I'm concerned, a lot of people—. Trying to get people to speak Welsh is, actually, sometimes about what you do in the classroom, but often, it's about what you don't do in the classroom; it's about what you do socially. And so, these ambassadors are trying to change the culture within some of these sixth-form colleges and further education colleges to make sure that they're changing the environment. And I'm really pleased to see that that seems to be going from strength to strength.

10:00

Yes, thank you for that assessment. Now, when the coleg produced the action plan, it did say that there were resource implications for the future. And they wrote to us recently, in the current budget phase, and made an assessment of what that investment would be, and for 2021-22, with Welsh Government investment of a further £800,000, and then, increasing, in a phased way, to an extra £3.2 million in 2023-24. I just wonder what your view of that assessment is of the resource implications. You said it's early days, so, presumably, when those early days turn into later days, you will recognise that there will be funding implications. So, in terms of that assessment, do you think that's the ballpark we're in?

Well, I think, as you say, we need probably a gradualist approach. I don't think we're going to be jumping into the kind of £3 million figures that they were looking at, but I do recognise that we do need to try and give more support in this area. And so, I'm working with the education Minister on seeing whether we can get some more support for this specific area of work. We haven't given up yet in terms of seeing if we can land some more funding for this area.

Well, I'm sure we'd be encouraged to hear that, particularly as your colleague Kirsty Williams helpfully wrote to us, just before this committee convened this morning. She does point out some additional investment, but we had this rather chilling line that, in general, she relied on the coleg's 'efficiency and effectiveness to deliver this', which is obviously polite speak for, 'There will be no more resources', and that this is special pleading and a more robust organisation, potentially, would not have to make these appeals. So, by the sound of it, you disagree with that approach.

Well, I've got a meeting with the education Minister after this, so this is something that we will be discussing. I think there's a recognition that we do need to give more support in this area, and we'll have to see what comes out of the budget process.

10:05

And I'm sure we all agree with your view in that respect, rather than the education Minister. I hope I haven't unfairly—

—interpreted her letter; I'd be the first person to acknowledge if I have.

I think she has been quite supportive in this space. Of course, you know, we're all battling for funding within the general budget, and it's been a tough year, as you can imagine. But we will do what we can to continue to support the coleg, obviously, and to try and extend its remit when that's possible with additional funding.

And I'm sure that in the sixth Senedd, our successor committee will regard this as a very important area. 

My second area is quite separate, and it's just on Welsh language regulations. I don't particularly want to rehearse your decision not to extend or bring in the regulations for health regulators during this term. You've made that decision, and I think we've already quizzed you on it. But I did just want to press on some of the practical challenges that, presumably, would remain. They're not specific to your decision, or the Welsh Government's decision more broadly in this Senedd, and may persist. That's that the regulators—well, some of them, anyway—are uneasy about having, as part of the register, the registrant's ability to speak and practise—and practise is the key thing—Welsh. Now, clearly, if the regulations are aimed at increasing access to services that can be delivered through the medium of Welsh, people are going to have to have some way of finding out whether the practitioner can practise or not. So, do you have—? Are you finding it a bit frustrating—? Are you feeling some frustration at the kick-back that some of the regulators—I don't think that's true of all of them, incidentally—have raised? Again, this may be new territory for them, and I'm all for tackling these cases, but you do need to be firm as well. And can we expect, very early in the sixth Senedd, that whoever forms the Welsh Government would be able to progress in this area very quickly?

Thanks, David. When it comes to regulations, I don't think we should lose sight of what we're trying to achieve here: we're trying to make services available through the medium of Welsh. I guess the problem with regulators is that they regulate individuals, and it's not their responsibility to then say, 'Right, what is it that you are offering to the public?' And so, there's a difficulty for us, because we're trying a regulate a group of people who perhaps don't have that front-line responsibility. So, it is difficult, but we were very keen to try and investigate, following the response from the Welsh Language Commissioner and groups like Cymdeithas yr Iaith, who were keen to see if we could tease this out a bit further.

So, what we're trying to do—. I think there are examples of where some organisations do this quite well. So, osteopaths, for example, they're letting people know where you can get some availability and service through the medium of Welsh. But when it comes to dental practices, they might be able to tell you if somebody speaks Welsh, but they can't tell you where they practise, because that's not their job, they're not interested in that; they're regulating the professionals. So, that's not very helpful to the public. So, there are lots of different groups here, and it's quite a technical problem that we're trying to resolve here. And part of the problem we've had is to try and delve into the ability to resolve this problem through a legislative framework, whether that is possible or not, and, of course, there's a lot of pressure on the legislative services within the Senedd at the moment. I don't know if Bethan would like to come in, because it is quite a technical area, this, isn't it, Bethan?

Yes. So, the Minister—

Chair, before the official speaks, it might be helpful if I can just ask a further question, and it probably would be for the official. I'm generally trying to get an understanding here. Is the problem with some of the regulators that they object in principle to the register listing whether someone can practise in Welsh, or do they feel they can't make the judgment when the person is fit to practise in Welsh, because that's a quality assessment about their ability to use the Welsh language in a healthcare setting? I'm confused, because the simple fact of registration, which would rely on the self-declaration of a practitioner, I would imagine—. It seems difficult to understand why there's an objection to the register just having that information.

10:10

I think there's a difference between—they feel it's not necessarily their responsibility to be doing this, and that's part of the problem. You've got to remember that most of these organisations are headquartered in England, only one of them has a base in Wales. So, the sensitivity around this issue is something that we need to do a lot of work with them on, and we have done a lot of work with them on this. Bethan, can you go a little bit further on the challenges we have in this space?

Yes, of course. The Minister is correct, it is a technical issue, because under the Measure and the creation of the standards, the service delivery standards can only be put upon organisations that are in charge of that service delivery, so regulators are in charge of the fitness-to-practise services, and nothing else. So, some of them ask registrants to note their language, but it doesn't fit neatly within the definition of their services, so under these standards, we can't put a formal standard upon them to do that. So, we are looking at other legal avenues or potential legal avenues to go through that hoop.

The Minister has also referred to the voluntary side, and I know that osteopaths, as the Minister said, are working with the Welsh Language Commissioner in order to do this on a voluntary basis. But we would prefer that all the regulators have the same approach in this field, and that's why we are doing further work with them.

I don't think they're opposed, per se, to doing it, but, as the Minister said, ultimately, this is to improve services for individuals, and, in itself, just denoting the language of the registrant doesn't necessarily translate into the public and the customer being able to access those individuals geographically. So, it is a technical issue, but at the base of it, the regulators do not—their service delivery is to observe the fitness to practise of individual registrants, and that's why, legally, we can't go any further within these standards. So, we're looking at other means, because, like yourself, we do believe this is an important element.

Okay. This is an observation more than a question at this stage, perhaps it's something to reflect on: in terms of giving informed consent to procedures, the ability to speak in the language you're most comfortable with is fundamental to absorbing information and being able to reflect on it and discuss it with your family, potentially, before you make a decision whether you want a procedure. So, language isn't peripheral to service delivery, is it? I just wonder if some of the regulators don't quite understand that, and I would expect, even if there isn't a legal route to insist on this at the moment, that all the regulators would still realise that it should be something that is done on a voluntary basis until the law also requires it. For the importance of this, I think it should be required in law as well, but I think it is important for us to make these points quite strongly to the regulators.

I think we've got a little bit of leverage whilst we're still developing the standards to hang the sword of Damocles over them to—. If we can't do it legally, then we need to do it through persuasion, and whilst we're still in the process of developing the standards, there's an opportunity there to have that more persuasive conversation, I think you're right.

10:15

Jest ar hwn, mae gen i gwestiwn ychwanegol: sut ydyn nhw yn esbonio felly sut maen nhw'n gwneud y dewisiadau? Mae rhywun yn gallu mynd atyn nhw a dweud, 'Dwi eisiau deintydd benywaidd', ac yn y blaen. Sut maen nhw'n penderfynu bod hynny'n gallu digwydd ond bod e ddim yn gallu digwydd ar gyfer yr iaith? Ife oherwydd, fel roeddech chi'n dweud, Bethan, fod y lleoliad yn anodd gyda rhai sy'n siarad Cymraeg?

Just on this, I do have a supplementary question: how do they explain how they make those choices? Someone could approach them and say that they want a female dentist, for example. How can they decide that that can happen but it can't happen in terms of language? Is it because, Bethan, as you said, that it's difficult in terms of placement?

Dwi'n meddwl yn dechnegol—. Mae'r rhan fwyaf ohonyn nhw yn fodlon cydweithio efo ni, ac mae yna lot o reoleiddwyr sydd wedi cydweithio yn dda efo ni, ond mater technegol o ran y safonau ydy hwn, achos yn dechnegol fitness to practise ydy prif wasanaeth y rheoleiddwyr a rydyn ni'n methu gosod safon wahanol arnyn nhw sydd ddim o fewn eu remit nhw.

I think technically—. The majority of them are willing to collaborate with us, and there are many regulators who have worked effectively with us, but it's a technical issue of the standards that we have here, because technically, fitness to practise is the main function of the regulators and we can't impose a different standard upon them that isn't within their remit. 

Oni fyddai fitness to practise, fel roedd David Melding yn dweud, yn cynnwys y Gymraeg gan mai dyna i rai pobl yw eu hiaith naturiol nhw ac wedyn byddai cyfathrebu drwy'r Saesneg yn anodd iddyn nhw, fel rhywun yn dod i'r gwasanaeth hynny? Na?

But wouldn't fitness to practise, as David Melding said, include the Welsh language, because for some people that would be their natural first language, and communicating through the English language would be difficult for them, in approaching that service? No?

Dwi'n cytuno efo beth rydych chi'n ei ddweud, ond nid dyna ydy'r safbwynt gyfreithiol o ran sialens. Fedrwn ni ddim ond gosod safonau sy'n gyfreithiol, neu os oes yna risg o allu mynd â'r safonau yna i'r llys o ran judicial review, does gennym ni ddim hawl i'w gosod nhw. Felly, rydyn ni'n dal i gael y trafodaethau cyfreithiol yna achos rydyn ni'n meddwl ei bod hi'n hollbwysig ein bod ni'n datrys hwn. Felly dyna pam rydyn ni wedi oedi'r safonau—am ddim un rheswm arall—achos ein bod ni eisiau mynd i'r afael â'r diffiniad yma. Ond mae'r gyfraith ar hyn o bryd yn edrych ar y diffiniad yn gul.

I agree with what you say, but that's not the legal position in terms of challenge. We can only impose standards that comply with the law, or if there's a risk of judicial review, then we can't impose those standards. So, we're still having those legal discussions because we think it's crucially important that we resolve this. So, that's why we have postponed these standards, for no other reason than that we want to tackle this definition. But the law at present has a narrow view of that definition.

Iawn. Diolch. Mae hynny'n helpu lot. 

Thank you. That's very helpful. 

Beth rydyn ni'n trio ei wneud ydy gwthio'r diffiniad ymhellach. 

What we're trying to do is to push the boundaries of that definition further.

Iawn. Rwy'n deall. Helen Mary Jones. 

Thank you. I understand. Helen Mary Jones. 

Yn fyr iawn, os yw'r gyfraith yn rhy gul—. I fynd yn ôl at bwynt David Melding, dydy hyn ddim jest yn ymwneud â rhyw bwynt gwleidyddol ynglŷn â'r iaith Gymraeg, mae'r effaith ar driniaeth a llwyddiant triniaeth feddygol yn gallu cael ei effeithio'n fawr iawn, ac mae yna dystiolaeth ar hynny. A fydd yn rhaid ystyried newid y gyfraith o dan y Llywodraeth nesaf, os yw'r rheoleiddwyr—? Rwy'n gobeithio y byddan nhw'n barod i fod yn hyblyg, ond fel roedd David yn dweud, o ran informed consent mae nuances yr iaith rydych chi'n eu defnyddio yn hollbwysig, ond ydynt? A fydd yna bwynt pan fydd yn rhaid i bwy bynnag yw'r Gweinidog nesaf feddwl amboutu newid y gyfraith?

Just very briefly, if the law is too narrowly focused—. Going back to David Melding's point that this doesn't just relate to some political point about the Welsh language, the impact on treatment and the success of medical treatment can be gravely impacted, and there is evidence of that. Would we have to consider a change in the law by the next Government, if the regulator—? I do hope, of course, that the regulators would be willing to be flexible, but as David said, in terms of informed consent then the nuances of the language that you use are crucially important, aren't they? Will we reach a point where the next Minister, whoever he or she may be, will have to think about a change to the law?

Dwi'n meddwl mai beth sydd yn rhaid i ni ei wneud yw edrych ar ffyrdd o wneud hwn heb ein bod ni'n mynd i lawr y trywydd yna yn gyntaf. Un o'r pethau rydyn ni'n ei wneud yw trafod gyda'r byrddau iechyd, er enghraifft, i weld a oes yna sgôp i'w defnyddio nhw i roi mwy o wybodaeth yn y maes yma, fel bod hwnna'n dod yn blatfform fel bod pobl yn gweld lle mae'r gwasanaethau yma yn gallu cael eu cynnig drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg. Felly mae hwnna'n rhan o'r drafodaeth sy'n digwydd o ran beth y gallwn ni ei wneud os nad ydyn ni'n mynd i lawr y trywydd yma. A dylen ni fod yn gwneud hwnna beth bynnag a jest cael y byrddau iechyd i ddeall eu cyfrifoldebau nhw yn y maes yma hefyd.

Well, I think what we need to do is to look at ways of doing this without going down that particular route. One of the things we're doing is having discussions with the health boards, for example, to see whether there is scope to use them to provide more information in this area, so that that becomes a platform so that people can know where these services can be provided through the medium of Welsh. So that's part of the discussion that's ongoing in terms of what we can do if we don't go down that particular route. And we should be doing that in any case, of course, and ensuring that the health boards understand their responsibilities in this area too. 

Iawn. Rwy'n siŵr y bydd pwyllgor yn y dyfodol yn edrych i mewn i'r materion yma hefyd. Symudwn ymlaen felly at gydumffurfiaeth â safonau'r Gymraeg. Mick Antoniw.

Thank you. I'm sure a future committee will be looking into these issues. If we can move on to compliance with the Welsh language standards. Mick Antoniw. 

Thank you, Chair. Minister, when we talk about Government policy and the development of Government policy, we often talk about policy not getting caught into governmental silos and how ministerial portfolios have to work across one another to ensure success, and the same very much in terms of Welsh language standards. So, I wonder, Minister if you could outline how Welsh Government is, I suppose, mainstreaming Welsh language policy across ministerial portfolios, and the extent to which it is actually genuinely being embedded within those policy areas, rather than being sort of siloed in some way. I'm just wondering what success you're having in that direction.

10:20

Thanks, Mick. I think this is a continual area where we need improvement, let me just put it that way. When it comes to Welsh language standards, obviously the Government has a responsibility to comply with the law, and so every department and every organ of Government has to comply with those rules that have been set out in the standards. So, in terms of the law, I think things are going in the right way.

The issue is how do we make the Welsh language a mainstream issue, rather than a bolt-on issue that people think, 'Oh, right, oh, God, yes, we've forgotten that.' And that is part of the culture shift that we absolutely need to embed across the Welsh Government. So, for the past few weeks, I've been having one-to-one discussions with every single Government Minister to try and develop, you know, what is the next programme of action towards 2050 going to look like, and what is the contribution going to be from each of those departments of Government, so that we can truly see those areas where we embed and mainstream it into every aspect of Government policy. Things like what Academi Wales are doing in terms of leadership, understanding leading in a bilingual country, all of those things are going to be really crucial in this space.

I suppose that's part of the problem, isn't it? You know, you talk about the culture change: if you have to actually think about it every time you do something, then that is almost part of the problem, as opposed to it being a natural part of what you're doing. It's almost a bit like the culture change from future generations is how you change the thought process, the whole culture of action and decision making. Of course, the civil service is key within this, and I'm just wondering to what extent you've been able to assess the extent to which you have that culture change within the civil service, and what examples there might be of showing how this is actually beginning to take place; that that culture change is actually occurring. How do you evaluate something like that, to identify that success is being achieved?

You'll be aware, Mick, that whenever anybody has to develop a policy within the Welsh Government, they do have to fill up and make an assessment of how this is going to impact on the Welsh language—every single policy area, every MA that is signed. So, they have to think about it before filling in that particular piece. The issue for us and the challenge for us is: is that a bolt-on at the end, or is it something built in from the beginning? I think if I'm honest, some departments are doing it much better than others. So, if you look at, for example, the education department and what's happening in relation to twenty-first century schools, I think the money from that has been used really well to drive policy, to try and increase the number of people going to Welsh language schools. So, that's been a real success story.

There are other areas where if it's a brand-new policy, we can really put some effort in, and I've got to pay tribute to the officials within the Welsh language department. Where they get stuck in, they can really make a difference. It's just that, actually, Government is huge and my department is quite small. So, if you think, Jeremy, for example, has been doing a lot of work on the digital programme of development, and we're right in there right from the beginning, making sure that it's built up from the beginning. So, if you're looking at new policy areas, I think there are real opportunities. Look at childcare, for example, I think there's a real understanding there, but there are other areas where it's not so clear.

In some areas we tie it to money. So, if you look at, for example, major events, which I was in charge of for a long time, we made it conditional: 'You don't get this money to support major events unless you demonstrate every single step of the way how you are going to promote the Welsh language.' So, we can write it into some areas and we probably need to do that a bit more. But I'm very keen to see how we get this culture change happening, Mick, and it's not straightforward, it's not easy; it's going to be a long journey, but we've already started down that path.

You're right; culture change is difficult, just as it is, as you say, in terms of usage of Welsh, which is as important, if not more important, than the actual numbers that are there. But you mentioned that there are some areas that are not particularly clear, or where there's a need for more progress. I wondered if you could perhaps say a little bit more about where you think those particular areas are, where more attention needs to be given.

10:25

I'm particularly keen to see more focus on things like employability plans. Where are the opportunities in relation to that? So, that's an area where I'm very keen to see where we can work. It's not straightforward, because if you look at something like apprenticeships, for example, we need to see more apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh, but actually, it's not the Government who provide apprenticeships, it's very often the private sector, and you can't force them to do things through the medium of Welsh. So, we can do some things. There's been a massive increase in the number of modules that people do through the medium of Welsh, thanks to the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol. So, there are areas where we're making progress, but we need to make more progress.

Thank you for that, Minister. If I could perhaps move on a little bit to some areas around, I suppose, things you said during budget scrutiny sessions, and so on. You've mentioned in the past that pressures exist on the commissioner, the work that the commissioner does, and perhaps the expanding work, but also that there are gaps there, and I think you said there might be some space for Welsh Government to move into some areas where there's been work going on. Now, whether that's a sort of overlap or to cover areas that are difficult to develop, I'm just wondering what areas of the commissioner's work you've been considering within the 2050 project that Welsh Government might be able to step into, either collaboratively or in some other way.

Well, I think, to start with, I want to make it clear that I think that both the commissioner and I are on the same page in terms of what our goals are. We both want to see 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, and we both have a responsibility to see how we can move towards that. I think in the past the focus of the commissioner has been more on regulation, but actually there's a movement now towards seeing how the use of the Welsh language can be increased. So, I think that's an area where we can collaborate, because what we have in the Welsh Government are some tools that may be helpful to the commissioner.

So, if you take something like the business sector, for example, there are aspects that the commissioner has responsibility for, to push the Welsh language in particular areas—I know he's done a lot of work on supermarkets and banks and places like that, and some of it's been super successful, I must say—but there are other areas where we can help him. So, with Business Wales, we have a huge number of people in that space who could be helping in that space. We've now, for example, got Helo Blod, which is a kind of call line where they can call if they want some help in relation to business and the Welsh language, for example. So, we're not trying to tread on anybody's toes here, we're trying to support the work that is done using the levers of Welsh Government that may be useful to support that. 

It's an interesting but also quite a complex area, because the commissioner has clearly certain legal functions and responsibilities, and yet both Welsh Government and the commissioner also have responsibilities in terms of the promotion of the language, and the promotion of the language can mean many things in different ways. Now, you have indicated previously that, in terms of the 2050 project programme, there was money that had specifically been put aside for the key objectives. I'm just wondering, perhaps, if you could be more specific about what you think might be the key objectives, the key projects that you would take forward that might involve, perhaps, joint collaboration with the commissioner and with you or Welsh Government.

I think, first of all, one of the things that I was keen to do was to establish a clearer understanding of where the demarcation lines were, and then if we were going to go into each other's patches, at least we would then make sure that we were working together, and that we weren't stepping on each other's toes. So, we have now a memorandum of understanding, so we both know who is leading where, because I don't want the public to be confused here—I think that's important as well.

But I think there are some areas where we can be helpful to the commissioner and, certainly, there are lots of areas where the commissioner can be helpful to us. So, if we take something like developing the WESPs, the fact that we have a commissioner who was responsible previously for developing how we needed to change the WESPs, I think that's been really helpful. But what we can do is to help him in terms of language planning. We're doing a lot of work at the moment looking at what does the language look like in every particular area, so that we can give support to the local authorities to develop their WESPs. So, that's an area where we both have a joint responsibility, I think, to move forward together. 

Another area that I'm very keen on looking at is place names. You've heard there's been a lot of talk about roads and things being named through the medium of Welsh, or house names being taken away. This is an area again where there's a responsibility on the commissioner to keep a list of those things but, actually, we've just got to look at whether there any gaps and whether we can be helpful to the commissioner in those spaces. 

10:30

That just really concludes, I suppose, my final point. I was going to ask about the level of engagement with the commissioner on it, but in the light of the memorandum of understanding, what I think we would take is that there is actually quite a strong ongoing process of engagement, discussion and mutual support between the commissioner and the work that the Welsh Government is carrying out, or that you're carrying out on behalf of Welsh Government. 

Yes, I think that's fair to say, and I'd like to play tribute to the commissioner and his staff for the working relationship with my officials as well. I think things are going quite well in that space. I think we understand that there's a mutual benefit, but we also are very clear that he has a responsibility to be independent of us, of Government, and that he has a role to maintain the standards in relation to the regulations. So, it's understanding that there's a wall there when it comes to regulations; we mustn't step anywhere near that path, and I'm very clear about that. 

Diolch. Cwestiwn atodol gan Helen Mary Jones. 

Thank you. A supplementary question from Helen Mary Jones.

I raddau, mae'r Gweinidog yn ei geiriau olaf wedi ateb y cwestiwn oedd gen i, achos roeddwn i yn mynd i ofyn a oes yna dyndra rhwng rôl y comisiynydd i herio chi fel Llywodraeth, yn ogystal â chyrff cyhoeddus eraill, a'r gwaith cydweithredol? Ond, dwi'n cymryd o beth dŷch chi newydd ei ddweud, Weinidog, eich bod chi'n ymwybodol o hyn, ac wrth gydweithio o gwmpas hybu'r iaith, ac yn y blaen, eich bod chi yn ofalus bod y berthynas ddim yn mynd yn rhy agos mewn ffordd y byddai pobl efallai—. Hyd yn oed os nad oedd yn wir, mae'n bwysig bod pobl ddim yn gweld bod yna bosibilrwydd. Mae perception yn bwysig, yn dydy, bod pobl ddim yn gweld bod y comisiynydd yn rhy agos atoch chi fel Llywodraeth, ac efallai ddim yn barod i'ch herio chi. 

To a certain extent, the Minister answered my question in her final remarks. I was going to ask whether there is any tension between the role of the commissioner in challenging you as a Government, as well as other public bodies, and the collaborative work that you do? But I assume from what you've just said, Minister, that you are aware of this tension, and that in collaborating around promoting the language, you are careful that the relationship doesn't become too close. Even if it wasn't the case, it's important that people don't get the perception that there is that possibility. Perception is always important, and people shouldn't have that perception that the commissioner is too close to you as a Government, and isn't willing to challenge you. 

Dwi yn hollol ymwybodol o hynny ac yn sensitif iawn iddo fe. Mae'n rhaid i'r comisiynydd fod yn annibynnol. Mae'n rhaid i ni roi'r gyllideb a rhaid i ni sicrhau bod y comisiynydd yn gallu gwneud y job o sicrhau bod safonau yn cael eu cydlynu gennym ni hefyd fel Llywodraeth. Dwi'n hollol glir am hynny, ond dwi'n cwrdd â'r comisiynydd, wrth gwrs, yn rheolaidd. 

I am highly aware of that and very sensitive to it. The commissioner does have to be independent. We have to provide the budget and then ensure that the commissioner can do that job of ensuring that standards are properly co-ordinated and enforced by us as Government too. I'm entirely clear on that, but I meet with the commissioner regularly, of course. 

Diolch. Mae gennym ni gwestiynau ar feysydd ychwanegol sydd o ddiddordeb i ni ar y pwyllgor, a dwi jest eisiau gofyn cwpl o gwestiynau. Ddoe, fe wnaethom ni gael datganiad gennych chi ynglŷn â'r ganolfan dysgu Cymraeg, ac yn y datganiad hynny, roedd e'n dweud bod yr arian wedi mynd atyn nhw am saith mlynedd, a bod yr arian hynny yn dod i ben y flwyddyn nesaf. Allwch chi gadarnhau bod hynny'n meddwl bod yr holl system hynny yn dod i ben? Ydy'r ganolfan yn dod i ben, neu ydyn nhw'n disgwyl bod arian yn dod o rywle arall, neu a yw'r penderfyniadau ar gyfer y Llywodraeth nesaf? Beth yw'r darlun gennych chi, Weinidog?  

Thank you. We have a few questions on additional areas of interest for us as a committee, so I have a few questions. Yesterday, we had a statement from you on the national centre for learning Welsh, and in that statement, it stated that the funding had been provided for them for seven years, and that that would come to an end next year. Can you confirm whether that means that the whole system is to come to an end? Is the centre to close, or is it expected that funding will be provided from elsewhere, or are these decisions for the next Government? What's your view on this, Minister? 

Dwi'n meddwl bod y ganolfan dysgu Cymraeg yn gwneud gwaith arbennig o dda. Mae pob un sydd wedi archwilio'r mudiad yn dweud bod pethau yn mynd yn dda a bod y safon yn dda ond, wrth gwrs, mae'n bwysig ein bod ni yn asesu, gan fudiad allanol, beth maen nhw'n feddwl, achos rŷm ni ymhell i mewn i'r broses nawr. Pan roeddem ni wedi setio'r system i fyny, roedd yna lot o nodau a oedd yn hollol glir ynglŷn â beth oedd y bwriad yma. Dwi'n meddwl eu bod nhw'n sicr wedi cyflawni'r rhan fwyaf o'r rheini, ond mae'n bwysig ein bod ni'n cael asesiad allanol cyn ein bod ni'n symud ymlaen i'r camau nesaf. A dwi yn meddwl bod yna sgôp i ni asesu beth sy'n digwydd yn y maes yma. Er enghraifft, dwi'n awyddus iawn, gan eu bod nhw mor dda, i weld ydyn ni'n gallu defnyddio peth o'r ymwybyddiaeth am sut i ddysgu i helpu yn yr adran addysg, achos ar hyn o bryd mae wedi ffocysu ar oedolion, so mae lot o waith yn cael ei wneud ar hyn o bryd i weld a oes yna sgôp yn y maes yna i weld a ydyn ni'n gallu addasu yn y maes yna. Felly, mae hwn yn rhywbeth safonol sy'n digwydd—bod rhaid i chi gael asesiad allanol o'r hyn sy'n digwydd. Ond, wrth gwrs, bydd rhaid i ni aros tan fydd yr asesiad yna'n dod tan ein bod ni'n penderfynu beth mae dyfodol y ganolfan yn edrych fel.

I think that the national centre for learning Welsh does excellent work. All audits of the organisation do state that things are going well and that standards are high but, of course, it's important that we do carry out external assessments because we are way into the process now. When we put the system in place initially, there were a number of very clear aims and objectives in terms of our intentions. I think they've certainly delivered against most of those, but it is important that we have an external assessment before we move on to the next stages, and I do think that there is scope for us to assess what's happening in this area. For example, I'm very eager, as they are doing so well, to see whether we can use some of that expertise in teaching to help in the education department, because at the moment it's focused on adults, and there's a great deal of work being done now to see whether there is scope to see whether we can adapt in that area. So, this is standard procedure in terms of having external assessment, but of course we will have to wait until the completion of that assessment before we make a decision on the future of the centre.

10:35

Ocê. Jest o ran yr arian a wnaethoch chi ddweud yn y sesiwn briffio'r wasg i'r Urdd, gwnaethoch chi ddatgan £1.3 miliwn ychwanegol i'r Urdd, ond yn y sesiwn briffio hynny, gwnaethoch chi ddim dweud o le mae'r arian yna'n dod. Ydy e'n dod o'r gyllideb COVID ganolog, neu ydy e'n dod o rywle arall?

Okay. Just in terms of that funding you announced in the press briefing to the Urdd, you announced an additional £1.3 million, but in that briefing session, you didn't say where that funding is coming from. Is it coming from the central COVID budget or from elsewhere?

Mae peth o'r arian wedi dod o'r gyllideb diwylliant a chwaraeon, ac wrth gwrs, roedd peth o'r arian yna—. Mae'r flwyddyn wedi bod yn un eithaf anodd, fel rŷch chi'n gallu dychmygu. So, reit ar y dechrau, roedd y gyllideb yna—roedd lot o'r arian wedi cael ei roi i mewn i'r pot canolog ar gyfer COVID. Mae peth o'r arian yna wedi dod yn ôl nawr, a dyna le mae yna sgôp gyda ni wedyn i helpu'r Urdd, a dwi jest mor falch ein bod ni wedi gallu gwneud hyn, achos dwi'n meddwl bod hwn yn fudiad sydd yn hollbwysig er mwyn i ni gyrraedd ein targed ni o filiwn o siaradwyr.

Some of the funding has come from the culture and sport budget, and of course—. This year has been quite difficult, as you can imagine. So, at the very outset, much of that budget had been put into the central pot for COVID. Now, some of that has been returned, and that's where we do have scope to help the Urdd, and I'm just so pleased that we've been able to do that, because I do think that this is a crucial organisation if we are to reach our target of a million Welsh speakers.

A beth am yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol, achos dŷn ni wedi gweld eu bod nhw efallai yn mynd i orfod gwneud diswyddiadau yn y sector hynny? A fydd arian ar gael yn ychwanegol iddyn nhw hefyd?

And what of the National Eisteddfod, because we've seen that they're going to be looking at redundancies in that sector? Will there be additional funding available to them too?

Wel, rŷm ni eisoes wedi rhoi £0.5 miliwn iddyn nhw y llynedd, wrth gwrs, fel ein bod ni'n stopio nhw rhag mynd yn bankrupt. Mae'n rhaid i ni fod yn glir: dyna beth oedd y sefyllfa. Felly, rŷm ni wedi camu i mewn unwaith. Wrth gwrs, os nad yw'r Eisteddfod yn cael ei chynnal, mae cyfrifoldeb gyda ni hefyd i drethdalwyr; i ba raddau ydych chi'n gallu talu pobl i wneud swydd lle nad oes angen i'r swydd gael ei gwneud? Felly, yn amlwg, mae hwn yn benderfyniad i'r Eisteddfod. Maen nhw'n gorff annibynnol; mae'n rhaid iddyn nhw wneud y penderfyniadau. Rŷn ni wedi helpu'r Eisteddfod gyda help ychwanegol yn ariannol i sicrhau bod yr Eisteddfod Amgen, oedd mor llwyddiannus y llynedd, yn mynd i ddigwydd eto eleni.

Well, we already provided £0.5 million for them last year, so that we could stop them from going bankrupt. We have to be entirely clear: that was the situation. So, we have stepped in once. Of course, if the Eisteddfod isn't staged, then we have a responsibility to taxpayers too; to what extent can you pay people to do a job where that job isn't required? So, obviously, this is a decision for the Eisteddfod. They're an independent body; they have to make their own decisions. We have helped the Eisteddfod and provided additional financial support to ensure that Eisteddfod Amgen, which was so successful last year, can happen again this year.

Mae'n swnio fel eich bod chi'n meddwl ei fod e oll o fewn eu penderfyniad nhw, ond eto i gyd, mae'r Eisteddfod yn sefydliad cenedlaethol sydd yn dod gyda lot o barch, nid yn unig yma yng Nghymru ond yn rhyngwladol. Mae'n eistedd yn anghyffyrddus i fi i feddwl bod rhaid iddyn nhw wneud diswyddiadau ar sail y ffaith eu bod nhw wedi gorfod gohirio oherwydd y pandemig. Dŷn ni wedi clywed bod rhai gwyliau cerddoriaeth—efallai Leeds—oherwydd eu bod ar ddiwedd yr haf, yn mynd i allu digwydd. Oes yna sgôp i drafod gyda'r Eisteddfod i newid dyddiadau fel ei bod hi'n gallu digwydd mewn cyfnod arall, fel bod y swyddi yma yn gallu cael eu cadw?

It sounds as though you think it's all their decision, but the Eisteddfod is a national institution that has a great deal of respect not only here in Wales but internationally too. It doesn't sit comfortably with me to think that they would have to make redundancies because of postponements as a result of the pandemic. We've heard that some music festivals—for example, Leeds—because they're at the end of the summer, can happen. Is there scope to have a discussion with the Eisteddfod so that they can change dates perhaps, so it can happen at another time, so that these jobs can be retained?

Wel, mae hynny'n benderfyniad i'r Eisteddfod, wrth gwrs. Mae unrhyw beth sy'n digwydd yr haf yma yn mynd i fod yn risg. Mae'n rhaid i bobl gwneud y penderfyniad yna, ac mae hynny'n benderfyniad i nhw ei wneud, yn hytrach na ni fel Llywodraeth. Ar hyn o bryd, dwi'n meddwl byddem ni fel Llywodraeth yn dal i gymryd agwedd sydd yn eithaf risk averse, achos dŷn ni dal ddim yn siŵr beth mae'r dyfodol yn edrych fel. Beth sy'n bwysig i ni yw bod yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol yn goroesi, ac rŷn ni wedi camu i mewn i sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd. Mae pob mudiad yng Nghymru wedi cael ei effeithio gan y pandemig, ac felly, mae'r raddau rŷn ni'n gallu camu i mewn i achub pob sefydliad yn wahanol. Rŷn ni wedi camu i mewn i achub yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol eisoes; maen nhw'n mynd i oroesi. Ond, wrth gwrs, mae'n rhaid i bob un, wedyn, edrych ar eu cyfrifoldeb nhw i weld sut maen nhw'n gallu sicrhau eu bod nhw'n gallu goroesi yn y sefyllfa really anodd yma.

Well, that's a decision for the Eisteddfod, of course. Anything that happens this summer is going to be a risk. People have to make those decisions, of course, and that's a decision for them rather than for us as a Government. At the moment, I think we as a Government would still take a risk averse approach, because we're still not sure what the future will look like. What's important for us is that the National Eisteddfod survives, and we have stepped in to ensure that that does happen. Every organisation in Wales has been hit by the pandemic, and the extent to which we can step in to save every institution is different, of course. We have stepped in to save the National Eisteddfod already; they will survive. But, of course, each organisation needs to look at their own responsibilities to see how they can ensure that they do survive in this very difficult circumstance.

Mae newyddion wedi torri heddiw—efallai eich bod chi wedi ei weld e, Weinidog—lle bod cyd-gyfarwyddwr Addysg a Gwella Iechyd Cymru, HEIW, wedi dweud bod pobl sydd yn methu siarad Cymraeg yn cael eu trin fel apartheid, a bod hynny yng nghyd-destun creu ysgolion Cymraeg yn ei ardal e; rwy'n credu ei fod e'n byw yn ardal Llansteffan. Mae HEIW wedi dweud bod y sylwadau wedi cael eu gwneud mewn capasiti personnol—James Moore yw enw'r cyd-gyfarwyddwr—a dwi'n credu bod yr ymateb hynny gan HEIW yn eithaf gwan o feddwl bod y sylwadau yma yn waeth na'r hyn a wnaethpwyd gan gyfarwyddwr Iceland, sydd ddim yn ei swydd rhagor. A fyddech chi'n condemnio yr hyn mae James Moore wedi ei ddweud, a beth fyddech chi'n gwneud nawr o ran cael trafodaethau gyda HEIW ar y materion yma?

News has broken today—perhaps you've become aware of this—where the joint director of Health Education and Improvement Wales has said that those who can't speak Welsh are treated as they would be in an apartheid scenario, and that's in the context of creating Welsh language schools in his own area; I think that's the Llansteffan area. HEIW have said that the comments were made in a personal capacity—the director is called James Moore—and I think that response from HEIW is quite weak given that these comments are worse than the comments made by the director of Iceland, who is no longer in post. Would you condemn the comments made by James Moore, and what will you do now in terms of having discussions with HEIW on these issues?

10:40

Dwi ddim wedi clywed y sylwadau hynny, felly dwi'n gyndyn i ymateb heb fod yn sicr o beth yn union mae e wedi dweud, ond dwi yn meddwl bod—

I wasn't aware of those comments, and I'm reluctant to respond without being sure of exactly what's been said—

Ie. Mae'n rhaid i bob un ddeall bod cyfrifoldeb gyda ni fan hyn i symud tuag at filiwn o siaradwyr. Mae hwnna'n golygu mynd o 20 y cant i 40 y cant mewn ysgolion Cymraeg, ac mae rôl gyda HEIW i sicrhau bod hynny'n digwydd. Ac mae'n rhaid i HEIW—. Roedden ni'n siarad gynnau ynglŷn â'r angen i newid diwylliant y tu fewn i'r mudiadau yma ac y tu fewn i'r Llywodraeth. Mae angen gwneud hynny ym mhob mudiad, yn cynnwys hefyd yr HEIW. 

Yes. I think everyone does need to understand that we have a responsibility here to move towards a million Welsh speakers, and that does mean that we move from 20 per cent to 40 per cent in Welsh-medium education, and HEIW has a role in ensuring that that happens. And we spoke earlier about the need for a culture change within these organisations, and within Government. That has to happen within all organisations, including HEIW.

Iawn, a gobeithio pan fyddwch chi'n gweld y datganiad a'i ddarllen e'n glir, byddwch chi yn cael rhywbeth i ddweud fel Gweinidog yr iaith Gymraeg, oherwydd roeddwn i'n meddwl bod e'n hollol annerbyniol i hyd yn oed ei chymharu gydag apartheid, a'r hyn wnaeth ddigwydd yn apartheid. 

Y cwestiwn olaf gen i cyn symud ymlaen at Mike Hedges yw: fe wnaethoch chi weld yn y Senedd, efallai, bod Llyr Gruffydd wedi codi'r ffaith—ac mae wedi bod ar Golwg 360—bod carcharorion Cymraeg eu hiaith yng Ngharchar y Berwyn wedi dioddef ymosodiadau corfforol gan swyddogion am siarad Cymraeg. Dwi ar ddeall eich bod chi wedi ysgrifennu at y Berwyn, a bod y comisiynydd yn mynd i gwrdd â nhw. Ydych chi'n mynd i wneud mwy nag ysgrifennu? Oes na rhywbeth, achos er bod carchardai o dan Lywodraeth San Steffan, mae'r iaith Gymraeg yn sicr o dan eich meistrolaeth chi, ac, felly, bydden i'n disgwyl efallai bod yna rywbeth mwy fedrwch chi ei wneud fel Gweinidog? Beth sy'n mynd i ddigwydd yn y maes yma?

Thank you, and I hope that when you do see the comments that you will be commenting as Minister for the Welsh language, because I thought it was entirely unacceptable even to make that comparison with apartheid and what happened under apartheid. 

A final question from me before moving on to Mike Hedges. You will have seen in the Senedd that Llyr Gruffydd raised the fact—and the story has been covered in Golwg 360 too—that Welsh-speaking prisoners at Carchar y Berwyn have suffered physical attacks by prison staff for speaking Welsh. Now, I'm given to understand that you have written to Berwyn Prison, and that the commissioner will be meeting with them. Are you going to do more than simply write a letter, because although prisons are not devolved, the Welsh language certainly is, and is your responsibility. So, I would expect that there would be more that you could do as Minister. So, what's going to happen in this area?

Wel, fe wnaeth y comisinydd edrych i mewn i'r iaith Gymraeg yn y carchardai ychydig o flynyddoedd yn ôl, ac felly, roeddwn i'n ymwybodol bod angen gwaith yn y maes yma. Roeddwn i'n siomedig iawn i glywed yr adroddiadau hyn. Dwi wedi ysgrifennu at Lucy Frazer, sy'n Is-ysgrifennydd Gwladol yn y Weinyddiaeth Gyfiawnder yn Llywodraeth San Steffan, i sôn am fy mhryderon i am yr honiadau hyn, ac yn gofyn am eglurder ac amserlen i weithredu'r mesurau roedd y llywodraethwyr wedi dweud y bydden nhw'n rhoi mewn lle. Felly, dwi wedi gofyn am fwy o fanylion ynglŷn â beth sy'n mynd i newid y tu fewn i'r carchar yna, ac o fewn pa fframwaith amserol. Felly, dwi wedi gofyn hefyd am sicrwydd bod pob honiad newydd yn cael ei ymchwilio, ac os bydd—

Well, the commissioner looked into the issue of Welsh language in prisons a few years ago, and therefore, we were aware that work needed to be done in this area. I was very disappointed to hear these reports. I have written to Lucy Frazer, who is the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State in the Ministry for Justice in Westminster, to express my concerns about these allegations and seeking clarity and a timetable for the implementation of actions that the governors had said that they would put in place. So, I've asked for further details as to what will change within that prison and within what time frame that will happen. So, I've also asked for an assurance that all new allegations—

Dwi ddim yn siŵr os mai fi yw hwn, neu—. Mae'r Gweinidog wedi diflannu i fi o ran—

I'm not sure if the Minister is frozen. I certainly didn't hear the Minister. 

Sori, roedd e wedi 'freeze-io'rhewi. Sori, allech chi ailadrodd y darn ola' hynny i fi?

Sorry, it had frozen. Could you just repeat that final point?

Ie. Dwi wedi gofyn i'r is-ysgrifennydd gwladol am sicrwydd y bydd pob honiad newydd yn cael ei ymchwilio, ac os bydd sail i'r honiadau, bydd camau priodol yn cael eu cymryd mewn modd amserol. Felly, dwi'n meddwl fy mod i wedi bod mor llym â dwi'n gallu bod yn y maes yma, mewn maes, wrth gwrs, lle mae'n gyfrifoldeb ar Lywodraeth San Steffan i sicrhau beth sy'n digwydd yn y carchar. Ond mae'n gyfrifoldeb, fel dŷch chi'n ei ddweud, arnaf i fel Gweinidog, i sicrhau bod hawliau pobl sydd yng Nghymru hefyd yn cael eu gwarchod pan mae'n dod i'r iaith Gymraeg. 

Yes, I have asked the under secretary for an assurance that every new allegation will be investigated, and if there is basis for those allegations, then timely action will be taken. So, I think I've been as harsh as I can be in this area, in an area which, of course, it's the responsibility of the Westminster Government in looking at what happens within prisons. But, as you said, it is my responsibility as Minister to ensure that the rights of people in Wales are also safeguarded when it comes to the Welsh language. 

Wel, gobeithio y byddwch chi'n cael ateb, os nad cyn i ni orffen, yna byddwn i â diddordeb i edrych ar hynny, achos, yn amlwg, mae e'n annerbyniol. 

Symudwn ymlaen felly at etifeddiaeth, a Mike Hedges. 

Well, I hope that you get a response to your letter, if not before the end of our term, then we would certainly be interested in looking at that because it's certainly unacceptable. 

We'll move on therefore to legacy issues, and Mike Hedges. 

10:45

Diolch, Gadeirydd. I've got two questions. First, the committee's been going now for five years and I know how much hard work people like Bethan put in to getting a committee to deal with the Welsh language and culture, rather it than being an add-on to the local government committee. I think it has worked. Will the Minister be supporting the continuation of a committee like this, dealing specifically with culture and the Welsh language, rather than having it as an add-on to either the economy or local government or something else? How much influence and help has this committee—of which I haven't been a Member, so I'm asking on behalf of others, really—been to the Minister in the work she's carried out?

I believe in accountability. I think it's really important that Ministers are held to account and I think committees are a really good way of doing that. I think it's very important to have a committee that has the Welsh language within its key aims in terms of accountability. I also think it's really helpful to me as a Minister in relation to the Welsh language. We've been talking today about how we mainstream the Welsh language and I think that the committee can be helpful in that space in terms of making sure that, actually, you don't just hold me to account, but actually there are other Ministers that need to be held to account in relation to the Welsh language. If we're talking about the future, I would suggest that actually, rather than just holding me to account when it comes to the budget, and looking at my tiny budget, which is about that big, for an hour and a half—that actually you ask the other Ministers, who've got huge amounts of money, what they're doing within their budgets in relation to the Welsh language. I think there's an opportunity there for the committee to perhaps do a little bit of probing within that space. I'll probably get killed now by my fellow Ministers. [Laughter.]

But not by Members of this committee. I think people are generally in agreement with you that we do, in Welsh Government, have a serious problem of silo mentality, which then makes its way to committees, which also have a problem of silo mentality. This is far, far worse than local government, which is often accused of it.

The last question I've got is: should the committee not just be looking at other Ministers, but looking at some of the private sector organisations? As some people here are well aware, I spent an interesting summer trying to get Lloyds Bank to deal with my daughter through the medium of Welsh and accept Welsh documents, which took the best part of two to three months and the intervention of a previous Minister for the Welsh language, Alun Davies, and the Welsh Language Commissioner, in order to make progress. I won't be on this committee after the election, I can be fairly certain of that, but should this committee be actually talking to private sector organisations—and not the corner shop in Monmouth, but large, private sector organisations such as the big banks, such as the major supermarkets—about exactly how they're making the Welsh language available to people who are their customers?

I think there could be an important role there. Of course, that's a space for the Welsh Language Commissioner in terms of leading on some of those areas, but there's no reason why you couldn't as a committee be trying to put pressure on some of those organisations. We don't have the legal tools to make these organisations do certain things through the medium of Welsh, but we do have the moral authority to ask them to do it, and I think that, in itself, is quite a powerful tool.

It is—sorry, I'll just finish on this—a massive tool. Can I just talk about a committee that I am involved with, the climate change committee? We've moved the marine environment massively up the agenda, both in the Senedd and within Wales, because we keep on having investigations into it and reports on it. It's got people who aren't necessarily part of the marine environmental lobby involved because we made it a big issue. And I think there are opportunities—whatever the successor committee is—to actually start making some of these big issues, and not just me making a fuss about Lloyds Bank and eventually getting success, but about the committee making a fuss about banking in general. I'm not sure that Lloyds were the worst at the time, and they are actually accepting things in Welsh now, following that campaign. But, generally, getting these things, whether we have it via the commissioner—. I would prefer it—and I won't be here, so I can prefer it for other people—that they do it directly to the organisations themselves, to get them to explain why, in an area where there are substantial numbers of Welsh speakers, they're unable to deal with requests in Welsh. They may well say, 'You can't just turn up and demand it; we may not have a Welsh speaker there', but they could certainly ensure that somebody who speaks Welsh and who works through the medium of Welsh is available if somebody wants to come in on a designated date and time.

10:50

Diolch, Mike. Mae hynny'n rhywbeth rili pwysig, dwi'n credu, i'r pwyllgor newydd edrych i mewn iddo. Rydym ni wedi cyffwrdd â rhai o'r materion yma drwy safonau'r iaith Gymraeg ac os ydyn nhw'n ehangu yn y dyfodol. Ond, yn sicr, mae banciau, cwmnïau dŵr ac yn y blaen yn rhywbeth y byddem ni eisiau i unrhyw Senedd newydd edrych i mewn iddyn nhw. Oes gan unrhyw Aelod gwestiwn ychwanegol cyn i ni orffen? Mae yna gwpl o funudau gyda ni. Na. Os felly, diolch yn fawr iawn i chi, Weinidog, am ddod i mewn atom heddiw. Mae yna gwbl o gwestiynau mae'n siŵr yn dod o'r hyn wnaethom ni ei ofyn, ac felly efallai byddwn ni'n ysgrifennu atoch chi. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi a'ch gweision sifil am ddod i mewn atom heddiw. 

Thank you, Mike. That's a very important issue for the successor committee to look at. We have touched on some of these issues through Welsh language standards and whether they'll be expanding in future. Certainly, banking, the utilities and so on are things that we would want any future Senedd to look at. Does any Member have any other supplementary questions before we conclude? We have a few minutes. If not, I'd like to thank you, Minister, for joining us this morning. I'm sure we will have a few questions emerging from this morning's session, so perhaps we will write to you with those. But thank you to you and your civil servants for joining us this morning. 

Diolch yn fawr. Diolch i bob un ohonoch chi am eich holl waith yn ystod y pum mlynedd diwethaf.

Thank you very much, and thank you all for all of your work over the past five years.

A diolch i chi hefyd am eich gwaith yn y maes yma. 

And thank you too for your work in this area.

3. Papurau i’w nodi
3. Papers to note

Eitem 3, papurau i'w nodi. Eitem 3.1, ymateb i'r ymchwiliad i'r diwydiant cerddoriaeth fyw gan fwrdd cerddoriaeth Caerdydd, ac wedyn eitem 3.2, gohebiaeth â Llywodraeth Cymru am reoliadau safonau'r Gymraeg. A yw'r Aelodau'n hapus i nodi y papurau yma?

Item 3, papers to note. Item 3.1, a response to the inquiry into the live music industry from the Cardiff music board, and then item 3.2, correspondence with the Welsh Government on the draft Welsh language standards. Are Members happy to note these papers?

Hapus i'w nodi, Gadeirydd, ond hoffwn i drafod, yn y sesiwn preifat, rai o'r sylwadau yn y llythyr gan Huw Thomas. 

I am happy to note, Chair, but I would like to discuss some of the comments in the letter from Huw Thomas in private session.

Ie, yn sicr, mae hynny'n iawn i ni ei wneud yn breifat. Dim ond eu nodi nhw sydd ei angen nawr. Mi wnawn ni hynny, felly. 

Yes, of course, we can cover that in the private session. We simply need to note them now. We'll do that, then. 

4. Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i benderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod
4. Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting

Cynnig:

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

Motion:

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.

Motion moved.

Eitem 4, cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. Ydy pawb yn hapus gyda hynny? Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn ichi i gyd am eich gwaith ar y pwyllgor heddiw.

Item 4, motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting. Is everyone content? Thank you all very much for your work on the committee this morning.

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:52.

Motion agreed.

The public part of the meeting ended at  10:52.